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Charity
2008-05-10, 12:22 PM
Scans of the character sheets from the Keep on the Shadowfell preview.
Dwarf fighter
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DwarfFighter1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DwarfFighter2.jpg)
Human wizard
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard2.jpg)
Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut2.jpg)
Dragonborn Paladin
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DragonbornPaladin1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DragonbornPaladin2.jpg)
Halfing Rogue
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HalflingRogue1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HalflingRogue2.jpg)

They are not pretty, but quite ledgable.
Before anyone gets upset, they were originaly linked over on gleemax so if WotC have a problem with it they have a funny way of expressing it.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-10, 12:47 PM
Yeah, I was just up at my local game store and we were going over the preview (quick-start) rules and his Dragon Born Paladin.

Its...s o...awesome...

EDIT: After reading them all, and the various powers that come at 2nd and 3rd level... I'm hooked more than before. Cure Light Wounds, Cleric Utility Power... Target regains HP as if it had spent a healing surge. Backstabber Feat (Sneak attack damage is d8s instead of d6s)

Morty
2008-05-10, 12:54 PM
Less new stuff than I expected. Overall, I doubt it'll make anyone like 4ed more or less.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-10, 12:55 PM
Less new stuff than I expected. Overall, I doubt it'll make anyone like 4ed more or less.

How wrong you are :smallwink: I've gone from simple salivating to outright drooling.

Morty
2008-05-10, 12:58 PM
How wrong you are :smallwink: I've gone from simple salivating to outright drooling.

Just out of curiosity, exactly what have you seen there that caused this reaction? All I got from the previews Charity posted was "huh, so characters can do this and this" and the mild distaste after seeing yet another Dragonborn. Is there something in the preview that's so awesome(as the nearest gaming store is about 200 km from here, it's not like I'm going to read it anyway)?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 01:01 PM
That the system seems to keep working two levels up from level 1. Which is R0XX0RZ, considering by level three you were screwed by a Batman Wizard, en previous editions.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-10, 01:03 PM
Well, we get our first look at Utility Powers.

Tumble, Rogue Utility Power. You shift 3 squares.

We get our first look at actual levelling, as all the pregenerated characters have rules for level 2 and 3. This also includes powers for level 2 and 3 that we have not previously seen.

Mostly, for me, it's the cure light wounds. Everyone was wondering if the healing would be completely reliant on Healing Surges... or the Cleric using your healing surges for you. Its not. Cure Light Wounds just heals you, just like a spell should. That's huge news.

From the 5 people that played the preview last night... the game runs really smoothly and it feels like you're playing D&D. That's what got them most, they felt like they were playing a streamlined version of D&D. The only complaint came from the store manager when he said that the healing surges were a little over the top... to which he retracted when I pointed to the rule that you can only use one healing surge per encounter as a Second Wind, unless you have a power that explicitly states otherwise.

Morty
2008-05-10, 01:06 PM
That the system seems to keep working two levels up from level 1. Which is R0XX0RZ, considering by level three you were screwed by a Batman Wizard, en previous editions.

Then I suppose it's amazing that my 4th level wizard isn't one.
Seriously, I understand that people like 4ed, but this demonizing of 3ed has gone a bit too far.


Well, we get our first look at Utility Powers.

Tumble, Rogue Utility Power. You shift 3 squares.

We get our first look at actual levelling, as all the pregenerated characters have rules for level 2 and 3. This also includes powers for level 2 and 3 that we have not previously seen.

Mostly, for me, it's the cure light wounds. Everyone was wondering if the healing would be completely reliant on Healing Surges... or the Cleric using your healing surges for you. Its not. Cure Light Wounds just heals you, just like a spell should. That's huge news.

From the 5 people that played the preview last night... the game runs really smoothly and it feels like you're playing D&D. That's what got them most, they felt like they were playing a streamlined version of D&D. The only complaint came from the store manager when he said that the healing surges were a little over the top... to which he retracted when I pointed to the rule that you can only use one healing surge per encounter as a Second Wind, unless you have a power that explicitly states otherwise.

Good to hear, but that's hardly anything we don't know already.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-10, 01:09 PM
Good to hear, but that's hardly anything we don't know already.

Oh... if its already been shown... could you point me to the link for the utility powers? Tumble, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Unstoppable... those all sound great to me.

EDIT: That comes off sound snarky... I don't mean it to be. I'm honestly curious, if you've seen this before, I'd like to see the rest of it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 01:09 PM
Tellat to the munchkin who loaded up in Sleeps, Color Sprays, Webs, and Greases. Everyone else felt COMPLETELY useless, because the guy took a done and a half tricks to get insane Init.

Cainen
2008-05-10, 01:10 PM
Then I suppose it's amazing that my 4th level wizard isn't one.

Batman Wizard, not Wizard. There's a difference.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 01:11 PM
Oh... if its already been shown... could you point me to the link for the utility powers? Tumble, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Unstoppable... those all sound great to me.


Tumble was in the Rogue preview. I believe Cure light was used as a demonstration of utilities somewhere. But unstoppable and Expeditious ARE new.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-10, 01:11 PM
Tumble was in the Rogue preview. I believe Cure light was used as a demonstration of utilities somewhere. But unstoppable and Expeditious ARE new.

Oh, I guess I missed the Rogue preview (or rather, forgot about it :smalltongue:)

EDIT: I really like that Backstabber feat. Even though the sneak attack damage has been lessened, there are feats to help it out.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 01:13 PM
Yeah, and powers. I'm still scared by the Angel of Vengeance, but with a few tweaks, a character could easily stand up to it and say "Get ovah here if ya think ye're so tough, *****!".

SamTheCleric
2008-05-10, 01:14 PM
Human Bonuses: One extra at-will power, feat, trained skill, +1 to fortitude, reflex and will defenses

Humans still kick butt. Extra stuff = win.

Morty
2008-05-10, 01:15 PM
Oh... if its already been shown... could you point me to the link for the utility powers? Tumble, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, Unstoppable... those all sound great to me.


As it's been said, Tubmle appears in Rogue preview. Others don't appear anywhere, but, well, those are just powers. We sort of know they're going to be there and that they'll look in a certain way.


Tellat to the munchkin who loaded up in Sleeps, Color Sprays, Webs, and Greases. Everyone else felt COMPLETELY useless, because the guy took a done and a half tricks to get insane Init.

And then he gets splattered across the wall when he runs out of spells or enemies make their saving throws. Seriously, wizards can do amazing stuff even on 3rd level, but they're hardly game-breaking at this point if they aren't heavily twinked out.

Charity
2008-05-10, 01:17 PM
Less new stuff than I expected. Overall, I doubt it'll make anyone like 4ed more or less.

So sorry to disappoint you, but what more were you expecting from the character sheets?

Anyway not long now Sam.

Morty
2008-05-10, 01:19 PM
So sorry to disappoint you, but what more were you expecting from the character sheets?


When I first saw this, I expected to see some entirely new powers, but most of non-utility powers are things we've seen before. Sorry if I cam out as whiny, though.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-10, 01:20 PM
Anyway not long now Sam.

Oh, don't I know it. My game store is holding a raffle... you get one entry per book you preorder. I've got the 3 core and Keep on Shadowfell. One of the prizes is -every- 4e supplement that comes out in 2008. other prizes include dice, minis, $25 gift certificates...

:smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 01:21 PM
And then he gets splattered across the wall when he runs out of spells or enemies make their saving throws. Seriously, wizards can do amazing stuff even on 3rd level, but they're hardly game-breaking at this point if they aren't heavily twinked out.


Please, read the posts. I mentioned munchkin + Batman Wizard. What the blazes do you think he was doing, making a good backstory?

Morty
2008-05-10, 01:26 PM
Please, read the posts. I mentioned munchkin + Batman Wizard. What the blazes do you think he was doing, making a good backstory?

Yeah, I know you're talking about munchkined wizard. However, wizards need really heavy twinking out to be really gamebreaking on low levels, at which point it becomes more of a player problem. Now, on high levels when wizards start to dominate without even trying, things look different.
Anyway, I belive that saying that 3ed "stops working" on 3rd level is a stretch.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 01:33 PM
Okay, you're right there, it doesn't stop working. Let's say it starts showing signs of stress. It actually breaks at level 7 (Or 5 with Artificers).

Morty
2008-05-10, 01:34 PM
Okay, you're right there, it doesn't stop working. Let's say it starts showing signs of stress. It actually breaks at level 7 (Or 5 with Artificers).

That I can agree with. Promises of more balanced game are what keeps me interested in otherwise unimpressive 4ed.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 01:47 PM
Yeah, it's one of the biggest draws, along with useful multiclassing. Personally, I think they'll make it, at least for the core. Later on, we WILL get some crap which will wreak everything up, but I believe it'll initially work.

kme
2008-05-10, 05:02 PM
The only thing that I do not like, is that it appears that wizards will only learn new spells by leveling. So they completely lost their "learn from scrolls and prepare what you wish" flavor. Hmm they are basically sorcerers now, but probably with even less spells known(compared to 3.5 sorcerers) as they get more levels.

Although I may be wrong, that spellbook ability seems as it could be expended in ways other then leveling.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 05:04 PM
It makes sense, though. If you allow the spellbook learning gimmick, a wizard has MANY more powers than others, nulling every effort to keep the balance together. Don't tell me you'd prefer Batman Wizards again, because that's what allowing power expansion for wizards only would do.

Myshlaevsky
2008-05-10, 05:37 PM
I'll agree that this is interesting, but nothing wildly new. It's hard not to buy in to a bit of expectant excitement, though.

It has sort of changed my mind about my first 4e character. I was all set on adapting a drow warlord, now I think I'll go human fighter or cleric. I'll probably change my mind again when I see the PHB, though.

kme
2008-05-10, 06:21 PM
It makes sense, though. If you allow the spellbook learning gimmick, a wizard has MANY more powers than others, nulling every effort to keep the balance together. Don't tell me you'd prefer Batman Wizards again, because that's what allowing power expansion for wizards only would do.

A wizard would not have many more powers, he would have the same amount as others, just with ability to change some of them every day. And power of batman wizards did not came much from their ability to change their spells, it came from the power of specific spells, and the way spells worked in general.

But even if options were a big advantage, they reworked all spells anyway, so I don't think that it would have been hard to make those additional bonuses balanced (they would mostly be fluff anyway).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 06:24 PM
Simplicity. Why the hell make a complicated to balance system that will be broken by the first splatbook? Much better to give wizards equal opportunities to normal warriors, not extra goodies.


Else, a warrior can switch from one lifelong combat style to another. It's only fair game.

EvilElitest
2008-05-10, 06:36 PM
Yeah, it's one of the biggest draws, along with useful multiclassing. Personally, I think they'll make it, at least for the core. Later on, we WILL get some crap which will wreak everything up, but I believe it'll initially work.

well we have the fluff......
from
EE

Starsinger
2008-05-10, 06:36 PM
Else, a warrior can switch from one lifelong combat style to another. It's only fair game.

No it's not fair! This is D&D where fighter types have to be heavily restricted, boring, and mundane or people start complaining.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 06:41 PM
Yeah! Death to the heretics who believe in great masters like those from the old traditions! Screw 'em!

Matthew
2008-05-10, 06:44 PM
Oh dear. Let's all cool down a bit. We know some people aren't going to like 4e and are going to prefer D20. It's no big deal, no need to start mocking them. This is generally a nice friendly forum.

Thanks for posting links to the preview characters, Charity. It doesn't look like 4e will be my cup of tea, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 06:47 PM
Meh, we're all cool, we're just being showoffs about our knowledge of Myths.

EvilElitest
2008-05-10, 06:50 PM
No it's not fair! This is D&D where fighter types have to be heavily restricted, boring, and mundane or people start complaining.

So we should go into the other extreme and wind up with the absurd Kenshin styled fighters? Wow, i'm excited
from
EE

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 06:55 PM
"Hey, the other guy is telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. Well, I can do that too, but I'm more badass! Suck it, wizzie!"

EvilElitest
2008-05-10, 06:57 PM
"Hey, the other guy is telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. Well, I can do that too, but I'm more badass! Suck it, wizzie!"

As i said, when eventually get the Speh with the giant sword, and nobody wants that
from
EE

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 06:59 PM
Addendum: Katana Fullblades do not exist and cannot be made. Any attempt fails.

And Normal katana's do less damage than Longswords.

Starsinger
2008-05-10, 07:01 PM
So we should go into the other extreme and wind up with the absurd Kenshin styled fighters? Wow, i'm excited
from
EE

I see fourth edition as a more happy medium.

Although, since you've mentioned a similarity to WoW, I'd like to point out that Warriors in WoW are certainly more awesome than 3.5 fighters without being absurd anime fighters. So there is in between ground.

But, if the only choices are "Attack, attack, attack, trip, attack/ leap attack shock trooper power attack pounce" one trick ponies and "Flaming Leopard Battle Claw", I'd much rather have the latter.

Charity
2008-05-10, 07:01 PM
Oh dear. Let's all cool down a bit. We know some people aren't going to like 4e and are going to prefer D20. It's no big deal, no need to start mocking them.

Don't make me say it

http://cosmicvariance.com/wp-images/getoffmylawnunbrand.jpg

Edit, I can't even stay on topic on my own darn thread... is there no hope?

Myshlaevsky
2008-05-10, 07:04 PM
This is all just a ruse, fighters in 4e are going to be more restricted than ever.

Sure, they might show you these maneuvers and abilities, but what they aren't showing you is that the class starts every fighter with 800lb, permanently unremovable, magic-resistant chains around it's wrists and ankles

Gorbash
2008-05-10, 07:08 PM
IMHO, spellcasters SHOULD be stronger than any other class, just because of the source of their power. On one side we have the Druid, who gets his powers and shifting ability from the mother nature herself; Cleric, who has a GOD watching his back; Wizard, altering the reality itself. And on the other side, the Fighter, a bloke who fights good. Well, of course they're going to kick his ass. The whole fantasy setting wouldn't make any sense if an ordinary guy, like a fighter, would be able to stand against something totally out of ordinary. It's the same case with Dragons. They are and should be way above their CR. They're freaking dragons! Epitome of fantasy. Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 07:11 PM
Okay. Spellcasters are superman.

But Fighter's get to be Batman. See, we fighter lovers get the lion's share, whatever happens! We're still more powerful in the long run.

Starsinger
2008-05-10, 07:14 PM
Okay. Spellcasters are superman.

But Fighter's get to be Batman. See, we fighter lovers get the lion's share, whatever happens! We're still more powerful in the long run.

Especially in one of those games where AMFs pop up more often than Kyrptonite. (I swear it's amazing how much of that planet landed on earth..)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 07:16 PM
That doesn't even matter. We're cooler, and that's enough.

See, the only guy that can compete with us is Indiana Jones! (Skillmonkeys). And he's in a lower league anyway.

Charity
2008-05-10, 07:18 PM
Just so you know Gorbash IMHO stands for in my humble opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion, however so are the rest of us.

"Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced."
Is the tiredest meme imaginable, it's got no substance to back it up and if you hate 4e soooo very much why don't you just avoid the threads that are clearly labled as 4e threads.

The publishers of the game WotC do not agree that only spellcasters should be powerful they have made this new edition in an attempt to remedy what they see as wrong with 3.5. It is not going to change cos you don't like it, suck it up and play 3.5.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-10, 07:24 PM
IMHO, spellcasters SHOULD be stronger than any other class, just because of the source of their power. On one side we have the Druid, who gets his powers and shifting ability from the mother nature herself; Cleric, who has a GOD watching his back; Wizard, altering the reality itself. And on the other side, the Fighter, a bloke who fights good. Well, of course they're going to kick his ass. The whole fantasy setting wouldn't make any sense if an ordinary guy, like a fighter, would be able to stand against something totally out of ordinary. It's the same case with Dragons. They are and should be way above their CR. They're freaking dragons! Epitome of fantasy. Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced.

I guess the Conan stories, in which wizards can't throw fireballs around and get their ass handed to them by any swordsman who's strong, tough, and strong-willed enough, are WoW.

There's nothing that makes spellcasters of any given level inherently stronger than warriors of that same level. Have you read any myths, and the kind of stuff mythical warriors and rogues do? Haven't you ever read any fantasy with inhumanly skilled non-spellcaster characters being ridiculously badass?

Sorry, but you don't get to decide that people who play fighter types automatically have to suck next to their buddies. Looks like WotC agrees.

Matthew
2008-05-10, 07:27 PM
Edit, I can't even stay on topic on my own darn thread... is there no hope?
Ha, ha. I would say that all hope of you staying on topic was long gone... :smallwink:



Okay. Spellcasters are superman.

But Fighter's get to be Batman. See, we fighter lovers get the lion's share, whatever happens! We're still more powerful in the long run.

You've got it backwards. Fighters are Superman (before he could fly) and Wizardsa re Batman.



I guess the Conan stories, in which wizards can't throw fireballs around and get their ass handed to them by any swordsman who's strong, tough, and strong-willed enough, are WoW.

Actually, Wizards in Howard's original stories are far stronger than the average fighter and are indeed capable of casting some kind of fireball type magic. Conan is 'just that great' and tends to hack them down before they complete their spells (or else has the aid of another powerful magic user).



Old Tsotha rose and faced his pursuer, his eyes those of a maddened serpent, his face an inhuman mask. In each hand he held something that shimmered, and Conan knew he held death there.

The king dismounted and strode toward his foe, his armor clanking, his great sword gripped high.

"Again we meet, wizard!" he grinned savagely.

"Keep off" screamed Tsotha like a blood-mad jackal. "I'll blast the flesh from your bones! You can not conquer me--if you hack me in pieces, the bits of flesh and bone will reunite and haunt you to your doom! I see the hand of Pelias in this, but I defy ye both! I am Tsotha, son of--"

Conan rushed, sword gleaming, eyes slits of wariness. Tsotha's right hand came back and forward, and the king ducked quickly. Something passed by his helmeted head and exploded behind him, searing the very sands with a flash of hellish fire. Before Tsotha could toss the globe in his left hand, Conan's sword sheared through his lean neck. The wizard's head shot from his shoulders on an arching fount of blood, and the robed figure staggered and crumpled drunkenly. Yet the mad black eyes glared up at Conan with no dimming of their feral light, the lips writhed awfully, and the hands groped, as if searching for the severed head. Then with a swift rush of wings, something swooped from the sky--the eagle which had attacked Tsotha's horse. In its mighty talons it snatched up the dripping head and soared skyward, and Conan stood struck dumb, for from the eagle's throat boomed human laughter, in the voice of Pelias the sorcerer.

Then a hideous thing came to pass, for the headless body reared up from the sand, and staggered away in awful flight on stiffening legs, hands blindly outstretched toward the dot speeding and dwindling in the dusky sky. Conan stood like one turned to stone, watching until the swift reeling figure faded in the dusk that purpled the meadows.

"Crom!" his mighty shoulders twitched. "A murrain on these wizardly feuds! Pelias has dealt well with me, but I care not if I see him no more. Give me a clean sword and a clean foe to flesh it in. Damnation! What would I not give for a flagon of wine!"

EvilElitest
2008-05-10, 07:27 PM
Addendum: Katana Fullblades do not exist and cannot be made. Any attempt fails.

And Normal katana's do less damage than Longswords.
Thank you

You hear that FF. Deal with it

I see fourth edition as a more happy medium.

It seems to me like a throw back



Although, since you've mentioned a similarity to WoW, I'd like to point out that Warriors in WoW are certainly more awesome than 3.5 fighters without being absurd anime fighters. So there is in between ground.

But, if the only choices are "Attack, attack, attack, trip, attack/ leap attack shock trooper power attack pounce" one trick ponies and "Flaming Leopard Battle Claw", I'd much rather have the latter.

Actually, even through i might have stared teh 4E/video game thing, i don't think it is going to be like an MMO. I wouldn't mind a WoW Warrior very much actually, i'd be cool with it. I think 4E is becoming more like FF


"Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced."
Is the tiredest meme imaginable, it's got no substance to back it up and if you hate 4e soooo very much why don't you just avoid the threads that are clearly labled as 4e threads.

The publishers of the game WotC do not agree that only spellcasters should be powerful they have made this new edition in an attempt to remedy what they see as wrong with 3.5. It is not going to change cos you don't like it, suck it up and play 3.5.
oh cute, nice try, except it breaks because of use of straw men and faulty arguments

1) 4E isn't becoming much like WoW per say, more like a mix of a war game, Wuxia film and FF. Throw some anime in maybe
2) As i said before, don't use strawman arguments. I want an new edition, i've argued for it when 4E was first announced. I don't like these changes.
3) 3E is broken. I don't like 4E's changes nor the game itself
4) I know your a fan of ignoring people, but simply telling them to go away doesn't make people's complaints less valid
Pathetic
from
EE

Tengu
2008-05-10, 07:41 PM
These character sheets clearly show to me that indeed, DND is becoming more like Final Fantasy or WoW.

But that's only because both of these name are synonymous with quality.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-10, 07:44 PM
Ha, ha. I would say that all hope of you staying on topic was long gone... :smallwink:


Are you implying that there was any hope at some point in the past? :smallamused:


Thanks for the preview and the road trip to Vegas. :smallwink:

Gralamin
2008-05-10, 07:44 PM
These character sheets clearly show to me that indeed, DND is becoming more like Final Fantasy or WoW.

But that's only because both of these name are synonymous with quality.

Truth.

Also, Charity, you have done a terrible thing. I've told myself this wasn't coming out until the 20th in order to allow myself to study for my AP exams. Now, I'll have to get it on Monday. Goodbye Chem score. This is all your fault Charity :smalltongue:

Charity
2008-05-10, 07:47 PM
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/papdoc/UKSmallAds010.jpg

I was just replying to your ad.

Silvanos made me do it...


Are you implying that there was any hope at some point in the past? :smallamused:


Thanks for the preview and the road trip to Vegas. :smallwink:

http://artlung.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kitties_we_cant_stop_here_this_is_bat_country.jpg

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-10, 07:48 PM
WoW, maybe. FF died after 9, and that one went out at the wrong time (The style of the first FF's is no longer sutiable for the world, but it was still an excellent game. FF 8 was the last big game, IMO.). Fetishpheres...*shivers*

Reel On, Love
2008-05-10, 08:02 PM
Matthew: Tsoth-Amon is probably the most powerful sorcerer in the Conan stories. Plenty of others fall relatively easily. The Conan d20 RPG reflects this, making arcanists weaker, overall, than other characters.

Matthew
2008-05-10, 08:05 PM
Matthew: Tsoth-Amon is probably the most powerful sorcerer in the Conan stories. Plenty of others fall relatively easily. The Conan d20 RPG reflects this, making arcanists weaker, overall, than other characters.

That's not Tsoth Amon (though he is a really, really powerful Wizard). Thoth Amon only has power through his ring, it's quite different. that guy is some kind of half demon, reputedly.

Regardless, he's not the only example by a large margin. In fact each of the first four Conan stories feature excessively powerful (and quite different) Wizards.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-10, 08:10 PM
That's not Tsoth Amon.

Oh, my bad. That's Tsotha, I was thinking of Thoth-Amon. Still, I think the point stands--he does throw a fireball, but not all of them do, and then Conan chops his head off, Ze End.

I didn't suggest wizards weren't stronger than the average swordsman (which Conan takes on in large groups at a time), but no stronger than the rest of the important tagonists, pro or anti.

I've been reading the earlier (in story chronology, not publishing chronology), pre-King stuff, and I didn't recall any fireballs being flung around. The overall trend to me seems like sorcerers are manipulators, summoners, curse-layers, but when they're in a room with Conan it's over. The most trouble they give him is when they send demons or sorcerous creatures at him from a a great distance.
The priests and sorcerers who don't do the whole demonology, Set, dark-powers thing tend to be even weaker than the ones who do, as well.

EvilElitest
2008-05-10, 08:10 PM
These character sheets clearly show to me that indeed, DND is becoming more like Final Fantasy or WoW.

But that's only because both of these name are synonymous with quality.

exactly and the only solution is communist......what



WoW, maybe. FF died after 9, and that one went out at the wrong time (The style of the first FF's is no longer sutiable for the world, but it was still an excellent game. FF 8 was the last big game, IMO.). Fetishpheres...*shivers*
Meh, i liked FF tactics and FF 12 was ok. 10 was simply an abomination



Truth.

Also, Charity, you have done a terrible thing. I've told myself this wasn't coming out until the 20th in order to allow myself to study for my AP exams. Now, I'll have to get it on Monday. Goodbye Chem score. This is all your fault Charity
Its coming out Monday? Eh? Or just the pre order

Anyways i laugh at you, i finished my AP yesterday

from
EE

ShadowSiege
2008-05-10, 08:13 PM
The whole fantasy setting wouldn't make any sense if an ordinary guy, like a fighter, would be able to stand against something totally out of ordinary. It's the same case with Dragons. They are and should be way above their CR. They're freaking dragons! Epitome of fantasy. Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced.

1.) A fighter is a Badass Normal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal) for at least a little while until he, too, starts breaking the laws of physics. And fighters do routinely whoop on mages in other media, or in the case of Elric, everyone including the gods because he has sword that eats soulsGranted, Elric is an incarnation of the Eternal Hero (Whoo! To that being an epic destiny) with an artifact swordThen again, that's pretty much what fighters get to be at epic level.

2. ) Saying a dragon's CR should be undervalued because they are dragons and thus dangerous is absurd. It goes against the intent of the CR system, which is to enable a DM to create a level appropriate encounter for the PCs to face.

3.) Have you ever actually played WoW? As in high level, end-game PVP & raiding? The classes are only approximately balanced, and every patch it changes. The cyclical "balancing" that the dev team did was frustrating to no end, and resulted in 3 canceled accounts (me & 2 friends).

In regards to the character sheets, meh. Nothing really new. I'm far more interested in what the upcoming previews are. It's not as though we've seen any spectacular new things with the sheets, though they are much appreciated for further adding to the data people are compiling for the preview releases at ENWorld.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-10, 08:15 PM
Shadow: Elric is also a powerful sorcerer himself, so that doesn't really apply.

Gralamin
2008-05-10, 08:15 PM
Its coming out Monday? Eh? Or just the pre order

Anyways i laugh at you, i finished my AP yesterday

from
EE

Theres a good chance it will be out on the shelves on monday, based on how my FLGS usually operates.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-10, 08:17 PM
Shadow: Elric is also a powerful sorcerer himself, so that doesn't really apply.

He winds up doing a lot of his fighting in melee though. He's an excellent gish. His spellcasting is primarily used to summon in help from what I recall.

Edit: In a less epic level example, Link is an example of a fighter beating a magic user. Or Batman beating... anyone (but that's already been said).

Matthew
2008-05-10, 08:30 PM
Oh, my bad. That's Tsotha, I was thinking of Thoth-Amon. Still, I think the point stands--he does throw a fireball, but not all of them do, and then Conan chops his head off, Ze End.

Sure, that's the nature of Conan stories. In that particular case, the Wizard survives, but another Wizard takes care of that minor problem for Conan.



I didn't suggest wizards weren't stronger than the average swordsman (which Conan takes on in large groups at a time), but no stronger than the rest of the important tagonists, pro or anti.

Indeed, you just said any Swordsman who's "strong, tough, and strong-willed enough", which obviously leaves a lot open. Admittedly, I read it as 'any old swordsman'. Still, I'm just saying, even in Conan the fighters have to be remarkable to beat the wizards (indeed, sometimes they basically have to be destined to do it). How you then translate that onto something like D&D is another question, of course.



I've been reading the earlier (in story chronology, not publishing chronology), pre-King stuff, and I didn't recall any fireballs being flung around. The overall trend to me seems like sorcerers are manipulators, summoners, curse-layers, but when they're in a room with Conan it's over. The most trouble they give him is when they send demons or sorcerous creatures at him from a a great distance.
The priests and sorcerers who don't do the whole demonology, Set, dark-powers thing tend to be even weaker than the ones who do, as well.
Absolutely. For the most part, Conan magic isn't of the 'flash bang' variety, but it does happen. Part of it may be that 'flash bang' is just boring to narrate, but it also speaks to the nature of magic in the Hyborean age. I would say more, but I don't want to drop any more spoilers, now that I know you are currently reading through the original stories. :smallwink:

Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-10, 09:18 PM
Indeed, you just said any Swordsman who's "strong, tough, and strong-willed enough", which obviously leaves a lot open. Admittedly, I read it as 'any old swordsman'. Still, I'm just saying, even in Conan the fighters have to be remarkable to beat the wizards (indeed, sometimes they basically have to be destined to do it). How you then translate that onto something like D&D is another question, of course.


And the D&D world the world is full of fighters. A lot more fighters then wizards. And wizards will be more powerfull then those fighters. But every once in a while a fighter is born with the Conan potentional of greatness. D&D even has a specific term for such a character. It is called a PC.


I like the balance that was done between fighters and wizards in 4E. Wizards In 4E I still see as still being more powerfull do to being more versatile, and they still seem to effect the outcome of battles more then fighters. But for the most part each class has a role in which they are good at.

Morty
2008-05-11, 11:09 AM
For a little break from the eternal and seemingly unresolvable -mind you, it's hard to resolve anything when boths sides use strawmen of the size of Statue of Liberty- "to balance or not to balance" debate, I've noticed one new thing: the half-elf warlock from the D&DXP preview had one wizard at-will spell as an encounter spell. This cleric fellow here though, has no such thing. So I guess the predictions that half-elves will be able to select one at-will power as an encounter power weren't exactly accurate.

Matthew
2008-05-11, 11:54 AM
And the D&D world the world is full of fighters. A lot more fighters then wizards. And wizards will be more powerfull then those fighters. But every once in a while a fighter is born with the Conan potentional of greatness. D&D even has a specific term for such a character. It is called a PC.

That's not what Player Character means at all. Still less is the default D20 D&D World 'full of Fighters'. The DMG provides a demographic outline of how many Fighters should be expected in a given settlement compared to Wizards, broken down by level. I have some tables around here somewhere showing averages for a couple of settlements...

In 24 villages with an average population 240 (80-400) you'll find the following:

{table=head] Village | Fighter | Rogue | Cleric | Bard | Barbarian | Druid | Wizard | Sorcerer | Monk | Paladin | Ranger | Total
1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 11
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 33
4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 27
5 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 30
6 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 39
7 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 32
8 | 15 | 15 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 49
9 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 12
10 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 13
11 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 37
12 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 43
13 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 14
14 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 23
15 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
16 | 15 | 15 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 51
17 | 0 | 0 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 16
18 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 27
19 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 21
20 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 25
21 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 26
22 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 25
23 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 45
24 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 65
[/table]

Total: 705/5760 = about 12%
Total Fighters: 129
Total Wizards: 42

Of course, that assumes that 240 is indeed the average population of a village, which is by no means certain. It could be as low as 80 (37%) or as high as 400 (7%).

In 24 Small Towns with average populations of 1,450 (900-2,000) you'll find:

{table=head] Small Town | Fighter | Rogue | Cleric | Bard | Barbarian | Druid | Wizard | Sorcerer | Monk | Paladin | Ranger | Total
1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 11
2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 33
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 33
4 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 65
5 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 39
6 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 49
7 | 15 | 15 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 49
8 | 15 | 15 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 77
9 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 19
10 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 37
11 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
12 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 69
13 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 23
14 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
15 | 15 | 15 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 57
16 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 81
17 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 28
18 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
19 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 25
20 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 61
21 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 31
22 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 45
23 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 65
24 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 85
[/table]

Total 1105/34,800 = 3.17%
Total Fighters: 174
Total Wizards: 84

Assuming my math is correct, of course.

Ratios of Wizards to Fighters is probably somewhere between 2:1 to 4:1. I think that the more large settlements you have, the more it tends towards 2:1, but I haven't extrapolated to find out.

KIDS
2008-05-11, 12:13 PM
Drool indeed. I particulary like the Dragonborn Paladin....!

Yahzi
2008-05-11, 12:14 PM
Dwarf fighter
This is a first-level fighter?

12 healing surges? 12? Good grief... 1st level players can't count that high! :smallbiggrin:

I'm assuming this number doesn't increase with level. I don't want to see a 10th level fighter with 120 healing surges.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-11, 12:17 PM
Since the surges are based on class + CON, I kinda doubt that. Maaaaaaaaaayyyyyybe you get one or two extra surges every tier, but that's it.

bosssmiley
2008-05-11, 12:54 PM
Scans of the character sheets from the Keep on the Shadowfell preview.
Dwarf fighter
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DwarfFighter1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DwarfFighter2.jpg)
Human wizard
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard2.jpg)
Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut2.jpg)
Dragonborn Paladin
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DragonbornPaladin1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DragonbornPaladin2.jpg)
Halfing Rogue
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HalflingRogue1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HalflingRogue2.jpg)

They are not pretty, but quite ledgable.
Before anyone gets upset, they were originaly linked over on gleemax so if WotC have a problem with it they have a funny way of expressing it.

Hmmm, interesting. More shineys at 1st level, and a seeming end to the 5-minute work day for low level casters. Makes me wonder how balanced allowing at-will casting of low level offensive/healing spells would be in 3.5 (given that actions more than spell slots are the basis of the high level power economy). Intriguing... *Spock brow*

I'm not sure from whence the wizard is deriving his AC though; given that his Dex bonus is +2 and his armour is...well...non-existent. I'm presuming the balance comes from some form of class ability (either a d20 Modern/SWd20 'defence' stat, or some form of ass pulled (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull) 'always-on' mage armour ability)? :smallconfused:

"W00t!" at fighters getting status affecting strikes (knocking a foe prone and the like). At last, a way of neutralising enemy actions without the rigmarole of special combat actions like bull rushing or grappling. Now, if only there were a way of pulling smug caster types out of the air (or the Border Ethereal) so they can be beaten down man-to-man... :smallbiggrin:

Current likelihood of Eggy D&D4-ing: Y30/N70 (up from Y20/N80). :smallamused:

Morty
2008-05-11, 12:57 PM
I'm not sure from whence the wizard is deriving his AC though; given that his Dex bonus is +2 and his armour is...well...non-existent. I'm presuming the balance comes from some form of class ability (either a d20 Modern/SWd20 'defence' stat, or some form of ass pulled (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull) 'always-on' mage armour ability)? :smallconfused:



You now add your Int bonus to your AC if it's higher that Dex bonus if in light or no armor.

Ether
2008-05-11, 01:26 PM
So we should go into the other extreme and wind up with the absurd Kenshin styled fighters? Wow, i'm excited
from
EE

Absurd? What's wrong with Kenshin styled fighters? Sorry, the question may seem obvious but I've only come to this forum recently and haven't yet discovered why anime and fighters breaking our laws of physics = bad.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-11, 01:31 PM
I really like those character sheets. It makes everything seem well organized.


Some comments:
- I love the race powers. Unliike 3rd edition it seems worth it taking something other then a human. Eleven accuracy, dragonborn dragon breadth, etc. It makes each race distinctly different. Half-elfs still seem underpowered though.
- Using each of the class powers seems like a lot of fun, with so much role playing potential. More fun then just usual hack slack.
- The classes seem well balanced, and yet definatly distinct. A fighter does seem to have a different feel from a Paladin, as an example.
- For the first time, it seems interesting to play a low level wizard.
- The healing surges idea takes a bit to get used to, but once I did, I really like the idea. It is way more heroic then healing potions. In 4th edition, hopefully healing potions no longer exist.
- Interesting take on clerics, on them being able to attack and heal at the same time.

Some questions/concerns:
- Wouldn't that cleave ability cause excessive micromangment, since 2 creatures get hit most of the time. And this will happen everytime the fighter attacks.
- That halfing 'luck' ability, also sounds annoying because of micromanagment. It would mean the halfing character would need to keep on asking the dm to make a re-roll. I know it is only once per encounter, but it still sounds like it would interfere with the flow of the game.
- Does anyone know how customizable these classes are? I certainly hope that every wizard is not expected to take magic missile. Do Paladin's and clerics have more choice between at-will abilities? How much the game will interested me, will be effected by how much choices there are in class creation. I hated druids, paladins, and monks in 3rd edition, because there was almost no choices in these character classes.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-11, 01:37 PM
Absurd? What's wrong with Kenshin styled fighters? Sorry, the question may seem obvious but I've only come to this forum recently and haven't yet discovered why anime and fighters breaking our laws of physics = bad.

Welcome to the Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards effect. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards)


That, and everyone hates shonen like fights that last a few years.

Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-11, 01:59 PM
Can someone give examples of Kenshin type abilities that fighters have? Things certainly seem okay at low levels.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-11, 02:07 PM
Fighters apparently DON'T have them. That's not the point, the point is the fear some have that it could end like that.

FYI, the same thing happened with ToB. The supplement was excellent and brought meleers almost up to par, but many people don't want to use it because it has stupid technique names and "It is too anime!".

bosssmiley
2008-05-11, 02:29 PM
You now add your Int bonus to your AC if it's higher that Dex bonus if in light or no armor.

Interesting. Sort of a generalised version of the 3rd Ed. Monk's Wis to AC class ability then?

"You are smart enough to not be standing where the blow lands." :smallamused:

@Krysis: I think part of ToB 'kenshin fighters' storm in a teacup was that ToB's oddball wuxia-inspired manoeuvre names offended the aesthetic tastes of a vocal minority among fans of old school, 'down-and-dirty' low magic fighters. From what little I followed of the furore it seems fighter fans wanted fighters to be able to fight magic on an even playing field, but without being (or using) magic themselves.

In a nutshell:

Fanbase wanted nonmagical Charles Atlas Superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower).
Fanbase got what smelt like "Crouching Tiger"/"Hero" fantasy ki attacks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KiAttacks).
Result: a whole mess of kneejerk "Fanbase SMASH!!!" :smallfurious:

(for the record: I'm a big fan of ToB)

Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-11, 03:16 PM
I see little danger of that. Not in any rules condiered core, at any rate. And any suplemantal material that does this can be ignored, but I can't see it occuring even then.


Any ki type abilites will be given to monks, not fighters and rogues.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-11, 03:23 PM
Yeah, but I'll borrow from Cool Hand Luke here:

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-11, 03:35 PM
Interesting. Sort of a generalised version of the 3rd Ed. Monk's Wis to AC class ability then?

"You are smart enough to not be standing where the blow lands." :smallamused:

@Krysis: I think part of ToB 'kenshin fighters' storm in a teacup was that ToB's oddball wuxia-inspired manoeuvre names offended the aesthetic tastes of a vocal minority among fans of old school, 'down-and-dirty' low magic fighters. From what little I followed of the furore it seems fighter fans wanted fighters to be able to fight magic on an even playing field, but without being (or using) magic themselves.

In a nutshell:

Fanbase wanted nonmagical Charles Atlas Superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower).
Fanbase got what smelt like "Crouching Tiger"/"Hero" fantasy ki attacks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KiAttacks).
Result: a whole mess of kneejerk "Fanbase SMASH!!!" :smallfurious:

(for the record: I'm a big fan of ToB)

Actually, fanbase got plenty of nonmagical Charles Atlas Superpowers. Tiger Claw is "RAAR I AM ANGRY", Iron Heart is "I'm one badass mofo", Stone Dragon is "I hit it, hard", Setting Sun is "Super-Judo", Diamond Mind is perfect for fencing masters or samurai-style warriors, White Raven is "I am a master of tactics".

But apparently "focus and hit him very precisely" becomes teh animu when the maneuver is called "Ruby Nightmare Blade".
Even though real-world fencing and martial arts--including European ones--had fancy names, too.

Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Devoted Spirit were all about half supernatural. But they were for the paladin-type class and the monk-type class... which also had non-supernatural options.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-11, 03:37 PM
This is a first-level fighter?

12 healing surges? 12? Good grief... 1st level players can't count that high! :smallbiggrin:

I'm assuming this number doesn't increase with level. I don't want to see a 10th level fighter with 120 healing surges.

You can only use one healing surge per encounter unless you get a power that lets you refresh your use, or if someone uses them for you (cleric or paladin)

He may have 12 healing surges... but I doubt he'd use them all in a single day... ever.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-11, 03:57 PM
You can only use one healing surge per encounter unless you get a power that lets you refresh your use, or if someone uses them for you (cleric or paladin)

He may have 12 healing surges... but I doubt he'd use them all in a single day... ever.

It's quite possible to go through all 12. Perhaps not at level 1, but at higher levels where you would presumably be taking more damage, the 12 (well, 9+con mod) healing surges would allow the fighter to be healed/heal himself more often than the rest, as he will presumably be taking the brunt of the enemy's attack.

Dragoon
2008-05-11, 04:10 PM
I'm like this, though is it just me, or did they get rid of encumbrance? Then again they might not deal with them on these character sheets.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-11, 04:19 PM
I'm like this, though is it just me, or did they get rid of encumbrance? Then again they might not deal with them on these character sheets.

Actually, I noticed that as well. It's probably more to do with the characters only being previews in a set adventure. I wouldn't be surprised if they got rid of encumbrance, as it tends to become a nonissue after you get a bag of holding (typically I make it a priority simply because I want to avoid encumbrance).

Oslecamo
2008-05-11, 04:36 PM
What, I don't get two dozen cantrips at first level as wizard? Blashphemy!

I wonder why the wizard is still shown carrying the book in hand. Does it mean he has to read every time he casts the spell? Or is just to look more badass?

Anyway, nice stuff. Wotc seems to be working hard to keep balance.

Altough I could totally see a party made of just one kind of class suceeding. Everybody is relatively good at dealing damage and everybody heals and everybody has some kind of battlefield control.

Wizard party: combine nukes to quickly finish the battle, push them back if they get too close.

Paladin/fighter party:just gank up on them and beat them untill the stop moving, using marks and insane AC to make sure they aren't even hit.

Cleric: Stand togheter and keep healing each other, wining by atrition.

Rogue:little trickier, keep moving, position cleverly for some sneack attack goodiness, push the enemies for extra aoos and a quick finish.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-11, 04:39 PM
Rogue:little trickier, keep moving, position cleverly for some sneack attack goodiness, push the enemies for extra aoos and a quick finish.

Forced movement doesn't provoke Opportunity Attacks. Nice try though.

Oslecamo
2008-05-11, 04:43 PM
No? Well, I would say it should. If you provoke Aoos for movin by your will, you certainly should provoke Aoos by being forced to move.

Another example of balance over any kind of sense. Wich is not a bad thing.

Mind you, the wizard can still make himself fly at paragon levels and rain spells down in the fighter whose powers untill now seem to be all melee.

Also powers aren't exactly maneuvers. Maneuvers need to be refreshed and can be refreshed during battle. Powers don't.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-11, 05:09 PM
I wonder why the wizard is still shown carrying the book in hand. Does it mean he has to read every time he casts the spell? Or is just to look more badass?

Because most spells require, or are improved by, an implement, such as a book or a wand.

Trog
2008-05-11, 05:40 PM
Charity, you freaking rock! :smallcool: *drools over charaters*


I'm like this, though is it just me, or did they get rid of encumbrance? Then again they might not deal with them on these character sheets.

From what I've seen so far it looks like they take into account your encumbrance through heavy armor. Dwarves, for example, move at 5 squares but ignore the encumbrance from wearing heavy armor. So they stay at 5. Other characters have a higher base move (6, usually) but get slowed to 5 for wearing heavy armor. So I think it is already taken into account.

I think they might be taking armor check penalties still into effect for physical skills. Though I haven't bothered to crunch the numbers on that. So thank god we may still be able to run around naked and be harder to spot/invisible or whatever. :smalltongue:

skywalker
2008-05-11, 10:57 PM
I really like those character sheets. It makes everything seem well organized.


Some comments:
- I love the race powers. Unliike 3rd edition it seems worth it taking something other then a human. Eleven accuracy, dragonborn dragon breadth, etc. It makes each race distinctly different. Half-elfs still seem underpowered though.
- Using each of the class powers seems like a lot of fun, with so much role playing potential. More fun then just usual hack slack.
- The classes seem well balanced, and yet definatly distinct. A fighter does seem to have a different feel from a Paladin, as an example.
- For the first time, it seems interesting to play a low level wizard.
- The healing surges idea takes a bit to get used to, but once I did, I really like the idea. It is way more heroic then healing potions. In 4th edition, hopefully healing potions no longer exist.
- Interesting take on clerics, on them being able to attack and heal at the same time.

Some questions/concerns:
- Wouldn't that cleave ability cause excessive micromangment, since 2 creatures get hit most of the time. And this will happen everytime the fighter attacks.
- That halfing 'luck' ability, also sounds annoying because of micromanagment. It would mean the halfing character would need to keep on asking the dm to make a re-roll. I know it is only once per encounter, but it still sounds like it would interfere with the flow of the game.
- Does anyone know how customizable these classes are? I certainly hope that every wizard is not expected to take magic missile. Do Paladin's and clerics have more choice between at-will abilities? How much the game will interested me, will be effected by how much choices there are in class creation. I hated druids, paladins, and monks in 3rd edition, because there was almost no choices in these character classes.

Half-elves, unless something was left out or they acquire much better abilities at later levels, are still underpowered.
There is a difference between playing a fighter and playing a paladin.
Playing a low-level wizard isn't that interesting. "I cast magic missile" same as always :smallannoyed:

Charity
2008-05-12, 02:02 AM
There is a great deal of support for the theory that there is a misprint/cockup in the half elf character, though I have seen nothing official.
Skywalker your DM was wrong about burst 1, it is 9 squares not 1, why would he think it was one square?
I am still quietly confident about 4e, I have heard good and bad reviews of KotS but mostly good.

skywalker
2008-05-12, 02:22 AM
There is a great deal of support for the theory that there is a misprint/cockup in the half elf character, though I have seen nothing official.
Skywalker your DM was wrong about burst 1, it is 9 squares not 1, why would he think it was one square?
I am still quietly confident about 4e, I have heard good and bad reviews of KotS but mostly good.

I really, really hope that theory is true. I wanted to play a cool half-elf so bad.

Charity, I honestly don't know. I think he probably hadn't read the rules as well as he should, didn't want to admit that, and didn't want to back down from what he said when I pointed out to him the absurdity of that. He said "I think you can use a feat to expand your bursts." Yes, because I'm sure they made a first level power that's completely useless at first level. That's honestly my best theory. This guy is already a little insecure about the fact that I understand D&D better than him, so...

Justin_Bacon
2008-05-12, 02:28 AM
Tellat to the munchkin who loaded up in Sleeps, Color Sprays, Webs, and Greases. Everyone else felt COMPLETELY useless, because the guy took a done and a half tricks to get insane Init.

How much "loading up" could you possibly be doing when you've only got 5 slots to spread those four spells across as a 3rd level wizard?

The "Batman Wizard" is certainly a highly efficient way of playing the character and high-level wizards certainly had the ability to become insanely powerful. But these two facts have never added up to "the game was irreparably busted by 3rd level!" the way that you claim.

On top of that, I'm trying to figure out how you could POSSIBLY conclude that this problem has been fixed in 4th Edition by merely looking at these character sheets. It's not as if, given a similar sampling of information from 3rd Edition, you could have even hypothesized the construction of the Batman Wizard -- let alone the purely hypothetical game-breaker you're suggesting.

Charity
2008-05-12, 02:55 AM
I think he probably hadn't read the rules as well as he should, didn't want to admit that, and didn't want to back down from what he said when I pointed out to him the absurdity of that. He said "I think you can use a feat to expand your bursts." Yes, because I'm sure they made a first level power that's completely useless at first level. That's honestly my best theory. This guy is already a little insecure about the fact that I understand D&D better than him, so...

I'm just the opposite, the more people that know the rules inside and out the better, less chance of having to retcon some terrible mistake later on.

I wanted to see decent half elves as well, they have sucked since the very beginning of D&D it's about time they got a break.
It seems likely based on the previous half elf we've seen that there has been a mistake.

^ in fairness there is more information available than just these character sheets. There has been a wealth of information disclosed on Enworld and RPGnet as well as on the WotC site. For example there is no flight spell in the heroic tier.

David Argall
2008-05-13, 05:21 PM
Tellat to the munchkin who loaded up in Sleeps, Color Sprays, Webs, and Greases. Everyone else felt COMPLETELY useless, because the guy took a done and a half tricks to get insane Init.
Well, since none of these spells do a speck of damage, you were hardly completely useless. Reduced to bodyguards and cleanup, maybe, but still useful.
But these spells?

Sleep? A full round of standing there and begging to be hit, to take out a maximum of 1 foe of your own level? It's not much of a spell at 1st or 2nd, and when you have 2nd level spells, it shouldn't be racked.

Color Spray? Well, it can be useful, but your mage has to be at hit-me range and again, this is not going to do much once the foes start gaining hd.

Grease is a nice spell, tho as noted, its utility comes from making the fighter's job easier. Absent a fighter able to unload big damage on an AoO, it's a trivial delay.

Charity
2008-05-13, 05:42 PM
OK regarding the half elf's lack of multiclassing ability
Mike Mearls posted this over on Enworld


Message received!

A few of us in R&D saw this thread, but we completely forgot that retailers were getting early copies of KotS. Sorry! We didn't want to jump into a thread before an official release.

I'm reading through this thread now to make sure that we take care of any issues that come up in the adventure. We have some goodies going up on DDI for the adventure next week, so we'll be sure to take care of any issues when we post those.

The half-elf's bonus power was cut simply due to space restrictions. Keep in mind that, as a quick start, KotS doesn't always use the full rules. For example, the skill challenge in the adventure was slimmed down so that we could fit it and the rules around it into the encounter.

We'll address the half-elf on DDI and bundle it with the materials we're posting next week. If you're playing the adventure right now, go ahead and pick a at-will power from a different character and use it as an encounter power for the half-elf. Just go ahead and use the listed attack bonus and damage for the power you choose, though normally you'd recompute those.

Sorry for the confusion, and sorry we didn't answer this thread earlier.

Chronicled
2008-05-13, 05:45 PM
Sleep? A full round of standing there and begging to be hit, to take out a maximum of 1 foe of your own level? It's not much of a spell at 1st or 2nd, and when you have 2nd level spells, it shouldn't be racked.

Wrong on several counts. It appears that someone hasn't read the 3.5 rules for Sleep.


Sleep
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first.

Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spellís point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted.

Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).

Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.

Material Component
A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket.

At level 1, Sleep is the win spell. Obviously, it quickly loses that status, but Glitterdust picks up the slack rather nicely.

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-13, 07:19 PM
Oh, I guess I missed the Rogue preview (or rather, forgot about it :smalltongue:)

EDIT: I really like that Backstabber feat. Even though the sneak attack damage has been lessened, there are feats to help it out.

Just admit it your being paid by WotC to sound interested! :smallwink:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-13, 07:21 PM
If by "being paid" you mean "spent a lot of money on preorders and got in trouble with my wife" ... then yes. :smallwink:

xirr2000
2008-05-14, 02:16 AM
I'm not sure from whence the wizard is deriving his AC though; given that his Dex bonus is +2 and his armour is...well...non-existent. I'm presuming the balance comes from some form of class ability (either a d20 Modern/SWd20 'defence' stat, or some form of ass pulled (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Asspull) 'always-on' mage armour ability)? :smallconfused:



Supposedly if you are wearing light or lower armor you can add either your Dex or your Int bonus to your AC. Which makes not only mages not totally screwed in the AC department, but allows for Int based fighter types as well out of the box without having to take 10 feats to make it worthwhile. In fact all of your defenses, AC, Reflex, Fort and Will allow you to take the best of 2 abilities to increase it, i.e. Str or Con bonus for Fort, Int or Dex for Ref and I'm assuming either Wis or Cha for Will defense.

ShaneLeahy
2008-05-14, 07:00 AM
Anyone pickup up on how cool Cleave will be. No hit roll to do damage the second creature. Once you hit one with a roll, another creature next to it takes 3 points of damage. Which may not seem like alot but remember that Minions only have 1 hit point.

Morgan_Scott82
2008-05-20, 03:24 PM
Anyone pickup up on how cool Cleave will be. No hit roll to do damage the second creature. Once you hit one with a roll, another creature next to it takes 3 points of damage. Which may not seem like alot but remember that Minions only have 1 hit point.

Actually its plus your strength modifier damage, the base character just happens to have a +3 for Str.

One thing that I'm curious about, since you add the standard bonus (1/2 your level) to your ability modifier for ability checks, do you also add it for other things that use your ability modifier? Most of the evidence points to yes, i.e. powers that are Dex vs. AC clearly include both the characters base dex mod ([Score-10]/2) and his standard bonus. Does this mean that the standard bonus is also applied when something adds Dex to damage? For example at first level our example fighter uses his Cleave at will power and hits, he does 2d6 (his weapon damage)+3 (His strength mod) to his target, and 3 (his strength mod) to an enemy adjacent to his target. Now imagine that same fighter at 4th level using that same cleave power does he now do 2d6 (that same weapon damage)+5 (His strength score+ his standard bonus) to his primary target and 5 (His strength score+ his standard bonus) to one foe adjacent to his target?

There is some precedent for this, in Star Wars Saga Edition the standard bonus was added to damage rolls, and it would help powers scale and remain useful through a wider range of levels.

Has anyone seen anything that would answer this question?

Charity
2008-05-20, 06:04 PM
Go here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221806)

and I believe that no, you only get level modified stat mods to skills, not to hit or damage. Though everyone get +0.5 to hit/lvl

SamTheCleric
2008-05-21, 12:49 PM
Ok, I have a question for the people who have picked these apart.

The Halfling Rogue powers... if we disect them...

The halfling has a melee attack with +5 to hit and deals 1d4+1 damage. Ranged attack with +8 to hit and is 1d4+4 damage. Dexterity is applied to hit on both, damage on the ranged attack. +1 for the dagger being a "rogue weapon".

For the ranged attack... +4 (dex) +1 (Rogue) +1 (small) +1 (Rogue Weapon) +1 (Halfling thrown weapons) ? Maybe?

The "Deft Strike" power lists its attack at +8 and damage as 1d4+4 and says that it can be either melee or ranged. Does this assume that the power is being used as a ranged attack?

The "Sly Flourish" lists its attack at +8 and damage as 1d4+7. I assume this power is also used at ranged with 3 bonus damage applied to it.

... my brain hurts. :smalleek:

Morgan_Scott82
2008-05-22, 02:05 PM
Sam I haven't actually crunched the number or broken down your math but the first thing I noticed was that in all three cases you forgot the proficiency bonus.

In 4e you don't suffer a penalty for being non-porficient instead you gain a bonus for having proficiency. This bonus depends on the relationship between damage and acruacy, low damage weapons tend to be more accruate (and get a +3 to attack rolls), average weapons fall in the middle (+2 bonus to attack rolls), and high damage weapons like the greataxe tend to hit hard but a bit less often (+1 to attack rolls).

So your rogue using a dagger would get +3 (dagger is confirmed on the list of accurate weapons in the weapons excerpt.)

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 02:07 PM
Hmm. Interesting. That would mean that there isn't a "small" bonus.

Melee: +1 (str) + 1 (Rogue weapon) + 3 (accurate) = +5
Ranged: +4 (Dex) + 1 (Rogue Weapon) + 3 (Accurate) = +8

That makes it a little easier. Good call!

Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 04:08 PM
Scans of the character sheets from the Keep on the Shadowfell preview.
Dwarf fighter
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DwarfFighter1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DwarfFighter2.jpg)
Human wizard
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard2.jpg)
Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut2.jpg)
Dragonborn Paladin
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DragonbornPaladin1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/DragonbornPaladin2.jpg)
Halfing Rogue
page 1 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HalflingRogue1.jpg) page 2 (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HalflingRogue2.jpg)

They are not pretty, but quite ledgable.
Before anyone gets upset, they were originaly linked over on gleemax so if WotC have a problem with it they have a funny way of expressing it.

You are my hero. Now if Only I can find the maps in digital form, I'd run the entire adventure on the forums here for people.

Charity
2008-05-25, 08:29 PM
I can do better than those initial scans, someone kindly put up some files


http://www.mediafire.com/?mj14lurm1tl

I haven't tried it out but I'm guessing they are cleaner.

OK this spoiler is a real spoiler it displays the actual encounter set ups in terms of creatures met, don't go opening it and then moaning at me



3 Character Encounter Adjustments:

Encounter (Normal / Adjusted Normal XP / Adjusted Actual XP)
Creature name | Creature XP | Original number # | Adjusted #|


Kobold Wilderness encounters:

On the Road (475 / 285 / 275)
Kobold dragonshields 125 2 1
Kobold minions 25 5 2
Kobold Slinger 100 1 1


A1 (625 / 375 / 375)
Kobold dragonshield 125 3 1
Kobold skirmisher 100 1 1
Kobold wyrmpriest 150 1 1


A2 (575 / 345 / 350)
Kobold dragonshield 125 1 2
Kobold minions 25 10 4
Kobold skirmisher 100 1
Kobold slinger 100 1

A3 (1250 / 750 / 800)
First Wave:
Kobold minions 25 10 6
Kobold skirmisher 100 3 2
Second Wave:
Irontooth 300 1 1
Kobold dragonshield 125 2
Kobold wyrmpirest 150 1 1


Dragon Burialsite Encounters:

A4 (599 / 360 / 420)
Agrid 125 1 1
Guard Drakes 125 2 1
Halfling slinger 100 1 1
Human rabble 30 4 4


Shadowfell Keep encounters:

A1 (675 / 405 / 450*)
Goblin sharpshooter 125 2 1
Goblin warrior 100 2 2
Rat swarm* 125 1 1

A2 (625 / 375 / 375)
Goblin sharpshooter 125 1 1
Goblin warrior 100 1 1
Hobgoblin torturer 150 1 1
Prisoner Splug - 1 1

A3 (625 / 375 / 375)
Goblin sharpshooter 125 3 1
Guard drakes 125 2 2

A4 (875 / 525 /
Balgron the Fat 175 1 1
Goblin cutters 25 8 6
Goblin warriors 100 5 2
This includes his advice on scaling the encounters down for a three player party

As for the maps some of them are re-prints, the first is the kings road map... I'll have a look if I can't discover anything else.

Asmodeus
2008-05-25, 08:43 PM
Do you know where I can download any of the maps?

Charity
2008-05-25, 09:10 PM
Gah, nothing as yet... it's pretty late here so I'll give it a rest for now... normally I don't have issues with finding images, but you're not just looking for pics which is a bit out of my area.

xirr2000
2008-05-25, 09:41 PM
Gotta say I really like this module. I am referring to the quality, amount and style of the product itself rather than the content of the adventure as I've only barely played out the first few encounters. I've heard some discontent that it was not a well put together module, flimsy, unattractive or crudely done and after seeing it this weekend I can only ask: Who could possibly call that a poorly put together module. The maps are top notch, the book are well made (not hardback as several people have pointed out but I can't remember a hardback module ever) and there appears to be a ton of content.

Sorry if this reply is a bit off topic but just wanted to say that I think this module is well worth the money spent on it and not just for the sneak peak into 4e that it provides.

Asmodeus
2008-05-26, 07:05 AM
Actually, I've been happy with the content of the module. Granted, the story is nothing fantastic, but I think it does the job of being a preview very well. It gives us several combat encounters, traps, skill challenges, and a good overview of the flavor of 4e. And with a talented DM, even the most bland story can really come to life.

I have 2 major complaints though.

1. the char sheets are not loose leaf, so they need to be photocopied or else ripped out.
2. After thumbing through the DM guide, the ink on the pages has worn pretty severely. I find myself having to wash my hands every 5 pages to avoid smearing things up.

Morty
2008-05-26, 07:15 AM
For those who have already played the module: can you tell me what are "sunrods"? I've seen them in the equipment of all characters presented so far, and I'm mildly curious as to what they exactly are, as I haven't seen anything about them.

kamikasei
2008-05-26, 07:26 AM
For those who have already played the module: can you tell me what are "sunrods"? I've seen them in the equipment of all characters presented so far, and I'm mildly curious as to what they exactly are, as I haven't seen anything about them.

Presumably they're the same thing as 3.5 sunrods: magical torch-substitutes?

Morty
2008-05-26, 07:31 AM
Presumably they're the same thing as 3.5 sunrods: magical torch-substitutes?

Huh. I never actually noticed sunrods being in 3.5. That answers my question then.

Aquillion
2008-05-26, 07:50 AM
Oh, my bad. That's Tsotha, I was thinking of Thoth-Amon. Still, I think the point stands--he does throw a fireball, but not all of them do, and then Conan chops his head off, Ze End.The point is, it's impressive that Conan chopped his head off -- because he was a wizard. When Conan fights other fighters, they rarely even warrant a name.

Evil wizards in heroic fantasy get beaten up the same way dragons do -- because nobody wants to hear about your heroic victory over some guy who was roughly as good as you with a sword. (And also, there's a sense that wizards don't fight "fair", which justifies whatever means the heroes use to win. If you have Conan fight an obviously better swordsman, say, and beat them through trickery or luck, it seems less impressive, since Conan is supposed to be a good fighter himself -- but against a wizard, a win by any means is still impressive, since the wizard was supposed to be so powerful.)

Charity
2008-05-26, 10:35 AM
Do you know where I can download any of the maps?


Go here:

http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php?option=com_vassal_modules&task=display&module_id=202&page=Files

Download the DDM 1-14-4 mod.

Download the DDM 1-14-4-ext zip.

Change the .mod to .zip on the first one.

You can then open both files to see the images - of which all the D&D skirmish maps are included. Fair resolution, but enough to game on.

Note that you don't need to download or install the vassal engine itself (unless you plan to use it to play online).

Wis

Enworld delivers

Zocelot
2008-05-31, 06:47 PM
I didn't buy KotS, so I just ran an arena with these character sheets. Thanks.

Highlights of the arena include a 5 rogue battle royale and the Dwarf getting a critical on his daily.