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View Full Version : 4e Skill Challenges : Am I Missing Something?



Crow
2008-05-10, 02:47 PM
Ok, so I have been reading about the skill challenges, but they don't seem to make using skills any more interesting than it was before. Instead of making one check and being done with it, you now make multiple checks and have to reach a success threshhold before you reach a failure threshhold.

This really just feels like the same thing with extra tedious dice-rolling thrown in. Am I missing something from of the other articles?

Skyserpent
2008-05-10, 02:51 PM
By making it a longer and slightly more complex process, with different tactics and time to try different moves it becomes more of an "encounter" and now worthy of experience points and gold, as opposed to the old system where it would be silly to say: "Okay you rolled a 16 on that one skill check, here's five-hundred experience points." It seems a bit more "XPworthy..." to me

SurlySeraph
2008-05-10, 02:51 PM
Yes. It's making skill use a bit like a combat encounter, in that you can use different skills at different points during the skill challenge to make different things happen. Also, it's not going to be used for simple stuff like "Climb the 20-foot wall" or "Trick the guard" - you'll just make one skill check for that kind of stuff. They will make things more complicated, but I like the concept and you can easily remove them if you don't like them.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-10, 02:52 PM
Ok, so I have been reading about the skill challenges, but they don't seem to make using skills any more interesting than it was before. Instead of making one check and being done with it, you now make multiple checks and have to reach a success threshhold before you reach a failure threshhold.

This really just feels like the same thing with extra tedious dice-rolling thrown in. Am I missing something from of the other articles?

See if you can find some of the reports about how they were used in the DDXP "Escape from Sembia" adventure. This ENworld thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220605&page=1&pp=15) seems to have some good information; post 9 is helpful.

Theodoxus
2008-05-10, 02:52 PM
from a pure mechanical standpoint, you're correct. I think the idea though is that skill challenges represent alternate paths to the same solution - and the DM is supposed to put fluff in there - not just "there are two guards in your way, you can roll 4/2 Diplomacy, Stealth or Bluff - DC 20. Let me know if you succeed."

But that's just how I see it

Reel On, Love
2008-05-10, 02:56 PM
Exactly. Mechanically, social situations are "roll Diplomacy. OK, roll Sense Motive." Skill challenges are supposed to have flavor involved. They can also let people get creative, describe things more, etc.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-10, 05:11 PM
This really just feels like the same thing with extra tedious dice-rolling thrown in. Am I missing something from of the other articles?

The difference is this: with a good DM, it's not tedious, but tension building. That assumes you're not just rolling five times, but hearing a result and consequence after each roll, and have to decide based on that whether it's not too dangerous to continue.

Matthew
2008-05-10, 06:36 PM
Essentially, they have changed the probability distribution so it's more like combat. In D20 you have to make a number of decisions and several 'rolls' during combat to effectively 'win' the combat. However, to overcome a social encounter you probably need only one roll.

In 4e they are basically formalising what some DMs were already doing with D20 social encounters, by making Skill Checks less 'all or nothing' and requiring multiple successes to achieve an end result.

I wouldn't choose to do it this way, but it's an interesting approach.

Mike_G
2008-05-10, 06:47 PM
I like it for some things. The "escape from the city" concept is nice, where difficult success can grant a bonus skill use, like a free Spot check to find a shortcut, or a Listen check to detect and avoid pursuit if you make a really good Hide check.

For most social encounters, I'm a fan of just roleplaying them out, and as DM i'll modify the reaction of NPC's to what you say and take into consideration your stats, skills, etc.

I want the players to actually make up a lie to tell the guard. The PC with the 18 Cha and maxed bluff is more likely to tell the same lie convincingly than the guy with the low Cha and no ranks in Bluff.

Not RAW, but who gives a rat's?

SCPRedMage
2008-05-10, 06:57 PM
Considering that it's pretty much the same concept as White Wolf's "Extended Actions", I don't really see the problem. The point is that it's supposed to represent on going efforts, where one check shouldn't make or break anything.

As far as being XP-worthy, I'd put 'em at MINOR XP awards, at best.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-10, 07:54 PM
The idea I had is that now you need more rolls if a certain situation needs more time to be completed. Like, you roll a diplomacy check to convince the king to do something. The DM says the DC, and you roll. If you pass, the DM says that the king is interested, but not convinced, so you need to roll again. If you pass, you convince him, and complete the task.
Also, in resisted rolls, you compare number of rolls, instead of "who rolls higher" , like the example they gave where a PC makes several diplomacy rolls to beat an NPC that is making diplomacy checks too (I hope initiative is still kept the old way, though).
Quick 1-round actions may require only one roll.

Edit: Also, it gets hid of the Diplomancer :smallbiggrin: No more "I roll Diplomacy with a -20 and turn my arch-nemesis to be my bestest friend in the world". Now you need to slowly work him from hostile, through neutral, and into friendly, that if you survive that long.

Overlard
2008-05-11, 12:20 PM
The new skill challenges are more like combats for the skill monkies. Can you imagine how fun it would have been for wizards and frontliners if they see the monster, roll a single d20 and then the DM tells them that the monster's dead or it killed them?

kc0bbq
2008-05-12, 02:47 PM
The preview material shows some nice mechanics. One of the examples includes a chance to roll a much easier success in a different skill if you succeed with one of the three primary skills that can be used for the encounter.


Setup: For the NPC to provide assistance, the PCs need to convince him or her of their trustworthiness and that their cause helps the NPC in some way.

Level: Equal to the level of the party.

Complexity: 3 (requires 8 successes before 4 failures).

Primary Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight.

Bluff (moderate DCs): You try to encourage the NPC to aid your quest using false pretenses. Characters can cooperate to aid a lead character using this skill.

Diplomacy (moderate DCs): You entreat the NPC for aid in your quest. First success with this skill opens up the use of the History skill (the NPC mentions an event from the past that has significance to him).

Insight (moderate DCs): You empathize with the NPC and use that knowledge to encourage assistance. First success with this skill reveals that any use of the Intimidate skill earns a failure.

History (easy DC): You make an insightful remark about the significant event from the NPC’s past. This is available only after one character has gained a success using the Diplomacy skill, and it can be used only once in this way during the challenge.

Intimidate: The NPC refuses to be intimidated by the PCs. Each use of this skill earns a failure.

Success: The NPC agrees to provide reasonable assistance to the characters. This could include treasure.

Failure: The characters are forced to act without the NPC’s assistance. They encounter more trouble, which may be sent by the NPC out of anger or antagonism.


If you succeed on diplomacy, you can then use history for the next roll, with a much easier DC. It's a nice mechanic. Can't remember what hard/moderate/easy are offhand, but it's significant.

I also like the fact that certain skills can be an automatic failure. Some people just aren't going to be intimidated, as is the case in the example. Some are difficult or impossible to bluff. You could have an encounter where you can't get bluff successes until you get at least one intimidate success if you want. It seems to be pretty meaty.

The other cool thing they've said (in the same preview article as the above info) that these encounters don't have to all be done at once. It can be an ongoing attempt to get enough successes over the course of a long adventure or set of adventures. So it doesn't just represent talking your way past a guard. It gives a mechanic for winning the favor of a local leader over time, which was more arbitrary in the past. You could award XP and cash and prizes, but there wasn't an overarching mechanic for it.

holywhippet
2008-05-12, 06:32 PM
I like the idea of skill challenges, it lessens the problem of failing because of an unlucky roll or succeeding because of an overlucky roll.

Grug
2008-05-12, 06:53 PM
This mechanic makes me squee :smallbiggrin:
I've always wanted skills to be as interesting and complex as combat.