Nine Sides

[Istari]

In http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html the demon roaches mentioned there being 9 sides in the gates conflict.
Who are they?

Current probable list

Xykon
Oots
Linear Guild
Redcloak
Evil Outsiders(Sabine's bosses)
Sapphire Guard
Azure City Nobles

[MSK]

Daimyo Kubota, perhaps, though I don't think he knows about the gates. I believe Redcloak was also listing the Goblinoids and Xykon as seperate sides?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Evil Overlords

Azure City and the Sapphire Guard

Ummm... There was a thread on this one before, but it has fallen down the pages quite a bit, so I forgot a bunch of the others...

[Ganurath]

Order of the Stick
Sapphire Guard
Sabine and Qarr's Superiors (and through them, Kubota and the Linear Guild)
Xykon and Tsukiko
Redcloak and the Hobgoblins
Monster it the Dark
Durkon's Hold
The Elves
The Kingdom of Nowhere

[The Extinguisher]

We don't know about them all, so it's silly to guess nine of them.

I'd peg it as:

The Order
Team Evil
Linear Guild
Azure City
Sabine's Fiendish Masters
Tyrannia

Plus 3 more we do not know of.

[Remirach]

If you're curious the old thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77565) We can't know about all the sides and we're not sure of how many of the nine are unknown, so it's really impossible to say at this point... not that it's not fun to speculate, of course.

[The Hop Goblin]

I'd say the demon roaches are going to be in there, somewhere.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Well, now there's the new Goblin Cult of Banjo.

And there's also the Evil adventuring party from 497 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). Since they were killed in Celestia, they simply went back to their own plane. So maybe they'll be back for some revenge.

[Remirach]

Well, now there's the new Orc Cult of Banjo.

Fixed that for ya. Yup. Currently allied with Team Kubota, but who knows how long that'll last, what with Therkla's attraction to Elan and Qarr's bad attitude.


And there's also the Evil adventuring party from 497 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). Since they were killed in Celestia, they simply went back to their own plane. So maybe they'll be back for some revenge.

I had thought they'd just be considered dead, but I don't know how those rules work.

The Thieves Guild probably warrants a mention too.

Sooo... the grand Remirach List of Potential Sides Thus Far (warning: this is huge):

"The Order of the Stick"
LED BY: Roy Greenhilt (deceased)
OTHER MEMBERS: Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and Durkon
ALLIES: The Sapphire Guard, Celia
STATED GOAL: to destroy Xykon
CURRENT STATUS: Aiding Hinjo and attempting to Raise Roy.
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Directly oppose Xykon's continued existence

"Team Evil"
LED BY: Xykon
OTHER MEMBERS: Tsukiko, The Monster In The Darkness
ALLIES: The Dark Church
STATED GOAL: world domination
CURRENT STATUS: building various magical devices in preparation for next assault
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Believes seizing a Gate can lead to the stated goal.

"The Dark Church"
LED BY: The Dark One (spiritual mentor)
OTHER MEMBERS: The High Priest ("Redcloak") as acting head, Jirix and the other hobgoblins in Azure City, the Dark One's worshipers in general
ALLIES: Team Evil
STATED GOAL: equality for goblinoids
CURRENT STATUS: Consolidating hobgoblin power in Azure City
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Believes seizing a Gate can lead to the stated goal.

"The Linear Guild"
LED BY: Nale, Super-Genius
OTHER MEMBERS: Sabine, Thog, various part-timers
ALLIES: Possibly the Dark Overlords
STATED GOAL: petty revenge
CURRENT STATUS: Attempting to seize a Gate unawares
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Following up on Nale's "eeeeevil potential" and a desire to smash the OOTS, Elan in particular

"Dark Overlords"
LED BY: The Dark Overlords
OTHER MEMBERS: Sabine
ALLIES: Possibly the Linear Guild
STATED GOAL: to tip the world's balance in favor of evil
CURRENT STATUS: Current activities are unknown
REASON FOR CONFLICT: have not yet taken an overt action

"The Sapphire Guard"
LED BY: Lord Hinjo
OTHER MEMBERS: Lien, O-Chul, House Kato, most of the refugees
ALLIES: The Order of the Stick
STATED GOAL: Restoration of Azure City
CURRENT STATUS: Recruiting new members, seeking asylum
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Want Azure City back under Hinjo's control

"The Order of the Scribble"
LED BY: No stated leader
OTHER MEMBERS: Soon Kim (deceased), Lirian (deceased), Dorukan (deceased), Kraagor (deceased and annihilated), Serini Toormuck and Girard Draketooth
ALLIES: Potentially with anyone willing to defend the Gates
STATED GOAL: to defend the Gates
CURRENT STATUS: 2 Gates still stand, and their defenders are not confirmed dead.
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Oppose all attempts to control or destroy the Gates, due to the danger of the Snarl

"Land of Tyrinaria"
LED BY: Lord Tyrinar the Bloody
OTHER MEMBERS: Everybody underneath Lord Tyrinar
ALLIES: None known
STATED GOAL: To stay in power
CURRENT STATUS: Believed to still be in power
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Has imprisoned Ian Starshine

"The Resistance"
LED BY: Thanh
OTHER MEMBERS: Niu, and every other free human in Azure City
ALLIES: The Order of the Stick, until recently
STATED GOAL: To oppose the invaders
CURRENT STATUS: implementing general insurgency tactics
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Want Azure City back under human control

"Team Kubota"
LED BY: Kubota
OTHER MEMBERS: Therkla, other ninja assassins
ALLIES: Dark Advisors
STATED GOAL: To install Kubota as leader of Azure City
CURRENT STATUS: Attempting to assassinate Hinjo
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Oppose Hinjo's rulership (or the rulership of anyone not named Kubota)

"Dark Advisers"
LED BY: Leaders uncertain
OTHER MEMBERS: Qarr (only known representative)
ALLIES: Team Kubota
STATED GOAL: To install Kubuta as leader of Azure City
CURRENT STATUS: Advising Kubota and assisting in his schemes
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Ulterior motives are unknown

"The Oracle of Sunken Valley"
LED BY: Tiamat (spiritual adviser)
OTHER MEMBERS: The Oracle (acting head) and his various minions
ALLIES: Anybody with cash
STATED GOAL: To obtain wealth
CURRENT STATUS: Alive
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Gave a snippy answer Roy didn't think was worth the money he'd paid

"The Inept Assassin Duo"
LED BY: Leaders/employers unknown
OTHER MEMBERS: Dwarf rogue (has a name, but it's only in the game and I forgot what it was said to be on the boards) and human Shadowdancer
ALLIES: None known
STATED GOAL: To assassinate the King of Nowhere
CURRENT STATUS: Abandoned goal and have not been seen since
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Thought Roy was the King

"The Woman Scorned"
LED BY: Loki (spiritual mentor)
OTHER MEMBERS: Hilgya
ALLIES: None currently
STATED GOAL: To be free of Dwarven oppression
CURRENT STATUS: Unknown
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Pretended to be friends with Nale to steal the Talisman for Loki, just in time for Nale to double-cross the OOTS

"Linear Leftovers"
LED BY: Leeky Windstaff
OTHER MEMBERS: Pompey
ALLIES: None currently
STATED GOAL: Revenge on those who mistreat trees
CURRENT STATUS: Free and unaccounted for
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Was allied with Linear Guild, attacked innocents

"Cliffport City Police Force"
LED BY: The Mayor
OTHER MEMBERS: The chief (deceased), the Rookie (currently acting as chief), the other policemen
ALLIES: None
STATED GOAL: To preserve law and order
CURRENT STATUS: Still in power last we checked
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Nale committed a crime wave

"The Spoooky Lawyers"
LED BY: The Spooky Wizard of the Coast
OTHER MEMBERS: Phil Rodriguez and Mr. Jones
ALLIES: None, but their services are for hire
STATED GOAL: To preserve intellectual property and uphold laws in general (especially the ridiculous ones)
CURRENT STATUS: Alive
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Various technical violations of law

"The Holey Brotherhood"
LED BY: Unknown
OTHER MEMBERS: Brotherhood member seen fighting the OOTScb
ALLIES: None known
STATED GOAL: to defend the rights of holes to exist
CURRENT STATUS: Unknown, very likely deceased
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Want Rifts to remain open

"Baron Pineapple"
LED BY: Probably Baron Pineapple
OTHER MEMBERS: None known
ALLIES: None known
STATED GOAL: Unknown
CURRENT STATUS: Unknown, very likely deceased
REASON FOR CONFLICT: some sort of unspecified but lame villainy

"Demon Roaches"
LED BY: No stated leader besides the one who got to wear Xykon's crown for a time
OTHER MEMBERS: Just the roaches
ALLIES: Team Evil
STATED GOAL: To tear up walls
CURRENT STATUS: Alive, hilarious
REASON FOR CONFLICT: seem to enjoy Xykon's company

"The Snarl"
LED BY: The Snarl
OTHER MEMBERS: None
ALLIES: Nihilists, perhaps
STATED GOAL: to devour everything
CURRENT STATUS: Seething within its prison
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Is a being of vicious primal chaotic energy

"The Unholy Alliance"
LED BY: The Unholy Master
OTHER MEMBERS: Yydranna, Keith Baker
ALLIES: none known
STATED GOAL: general villainy
CURRENT STATUS: Unaccounted for in the past 83 years
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Scorned Xykon for a leadership position and will ruthlessly crush him if they encounter him again

"The Orthodox Banjoists"
LED BY: Banjo the Clown (spiritual adviser)
OTHER MEMBERS: Chief Grukgruk, Shaman Vurkle, Crong, Gok, Mungu, the other orcs of the island
ALLIES: Team Kubota and the Dark Advisers (with Therkla on lead vocals, get your tickets today!)
STATED GOAL: To have a moral compass which allows for sufficient time for orc-ball Sunday
CURRENT STATUS: Lying in wait with Lien as bait
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Got an unknown deposit to ally with the others, who are in conflict with the OOTS and the Sapphire Guard

"Evil Adventuring Party"
LED BY: No stated leader
OTHER MEMBERS: male human cleric, female Dark Elf rogue (I think), male combat-type
ALLIES: None known
STATED GOAL: To earn XP
REASON FOR CONFLICT: They attacked the Greenhilt family randomly

"The Thieves Guild"
LED BY: Bozzak
OTHER MEMBERS: Crystal, Chuck, Jenny, Billy, Hank
ALLIES: Unknown
STATED GOAL: To rob and plunder
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Haley quit and is fair game

...WHEW!! I'm done, anyone else want to do more in a similar style, feel free, but I think I've earned enough nerd points to last a lifetime here.

[Lira]

Wow Remirach, that's an excellent list of the potential sides. I think you've got them all.

[Ancalagon]

Nice list, but it is not complete, since not anyone is one the stage and you can break up... your main side.

The Order of the Stick is far from "one side".

Belkar is his own side (doesn't care about anything but himself and probably could do something stupid to shake off Roy'S influence), Varsuuvius as well (would probably leave Xykon be for the promise of 'ultimate arcane power').
Haley is also not on the Order's save-side, if she had to decide between "freeing father" and "going on with the quest", she may leave.

The side "Order of the Stick" basically consists of Roy, Durkon and maybe Elan. The other members are just attached to the first two.

I also guess the other gods (good ones) will also start to influence things sooner or later in some way. (Since we know the Dark One strongly interferes with the things to come (due to Redcloak and his red cloak) and assuming Tiamat manipulates through the oracle it is not likely all the other gods do not move at all when their very creation is in danger).

[T-O-E]

I assumed the roaches were discussing the 9 alignments.

[David Argall]

Wow Remirach, that's an excellent list of the potential sides. I think you've got them all.

Probably not. The obvious reading of the DR remark is that some sides have not appeared on camera yet, and so are not on any list of ours.

[dragongirl13]

GAHGH! The demon roaches are NOT talking about people when they talk about sides, they're talking about alignments! There are nine alignments: Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil!

[The Extinguisher]

Except that we know all the alignments, making the second comment pointless.

[Kato]

*sigh* Why does everybody has to take those jokes so serious?
For once, none of us can read Rich's mind, so we neither know, if this was a joke, a hint, a reference to the alignment or anything...
But just thinking for five minutes or so can get yout to the conclusion, there are about 20 sides, so it's probably either just some random number joke with the intention to drive all of you crazy or just a reference to the alignments (I favor the first)

[factotum]

If it was alignments, why would it be "at LEAST nine", and why would the roaches have said we don't know about some of them? It also makes guessing them a bit pointless, since not only has it been said that we don't know all of them, there might well turn out to be more than nine before the strip ends anyway...

[Querzis]

For once, none of us can read Rich's mind, so we neither know, if this was a joke, a hint, a reference to the alignment or anything...

Yes we dont know for sure, thats the whole point of guessing. There woudnt be a thread about it if we already knew what it was. Seriously, I'm wondering if you have ever been to a webcomic, comic or tv series forum before, the whole point of these forum is to guess whats gonna happen next and its fun!


But just thinking for five minutes or so can get yout to the conclusion, there are about 20 sides, so it's probably either just some random number joke with the intention to drive all of you crazy or just a reference to the alignments (I favor the first)

Those are just possible sides but Redcloak said how many sides «In this conflict» and I just count six of those who actually got anything to do with AC. If we assume the conflict is not AC conflict but the conflict with the gate, then only seven of those sides actually know about the gate.

Thats about it. We know seven sides max and thats assuming people with the same goals (the order and the saphire guard for example) dont actually count as the same side.

[Arkenputtyknife]

If it was alignments, why would it be "at LEAST nine", and why would the roaches have said we don't know about some of them? It also makes guessing them a bit pointless, since not only has it been said that we don't know all of them, there might well turn out to be more than nine before the strip ends anyway...
Ah! Obviously, there must be a third alignment axis of which we were previously unaware. That would bring the total number of alignments up to 27, and the number of Outer Planes up to 98. It must be true! Now what could the new axis be? Something like Smooth–Crunchy, perhaps…

[vegetalss4]

Ah! Obviously, there must be a third alignment axis of which we were previously unaware. That would bring the total number of alignments up to 27, and the number of Outer Planes up to 98. It must be true! Now what could the new axis be? Something like Smooth–Crunchy, perhaps…

No... Funky-straith didnet you get the note?

[The Hop Goblin]

Ah! Obviously, there must be a third alignment axis of which we were previously unaware. That would bring the total number of alignments up to 27, and the number of Outer Planes up to 98. It must be true! Now what could the new axis be? Something like Smooth–Crunchy, perhaps…

And, if you go 88 miles per hour in a certain 1980's British sports car - you then add a 4th dimension, then the base number of alignments is 81. Oh, and if you don't have any Delorians - apparently a phone booth does the same task... :smallconfused:

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Fixed that for ya. Yup. Currently allied with Team Kubota, but who knows how long that'll last, what with Therkla's attraction to Elan and Qarr's bad attitude.

Thanks. I don't know why I wrote "goblin" instead of "orc". I must have been thinking of Redcloak and Team Evil. I didn't even realize it until you pointed it out for me.




I had thought they'd just be considered dead, but I don't know how those rules work.
The way I understood it, since the EAP weren't from Celestia, they could just return to their own plane. Unless this is only for celestial/demonic creatures.

Anyway, that's quite a list! And to think there are other factions that Rich hasn't introduced yet.

[Lira]

Probably not. The obvious reading of the DR remark is that some sides have not appeared on camera yet, and so are not on any list of ours.Well she's got all the ones we've seen so far/that I can possibly think of. It should be interesting to see if there are more sides though.

[Teatime]

Question...

I've seen "Sabine's Overlords" mentioned several times. I don't recall, when did they appear/mention any interest in the gates? Or is it just assumed that they're mucking about somewhere, because DnD rules dictate that Sabine obviously has them?

[Calinero]

All the sides I can think of:

OotS (can be subdivided into Belkar, and at times V and Haley)
Linear Guild (subdivided into Sabine and her Outsider friends)
Azure City (by which I mean the good aspects, like Hinjo)
Redcloak & the Goblins (that sounds like a band, doesn't it?)
Xykon
Tyrannia
Kubota (and all other evil Azure City nobles)
The Snarl

That's all I've got so far. Some of these can probably be divided further, and many of them will overlap.

[Remirach]

Question...

I've seen "Sabine's Overlords" mentioned several times. I don't recall, when did they appear/mention any interest in the gates? Or is it just assumed that they're mucking about somewhere, because DnD rules dictate that Sabine obviously has them?

When Sabine finds out about the Snarl, she rushes back to the lower planes because she remembers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) them telling her to bring them any information that might "tip the cosmic balance." The implication is that she suspects the Snarl and/or the Gates might be useful to her masters. Whether or not they agree has yet to be seen.

And thank you, Lira! But I'm filled with shame to note that I omitted the flumphs. :smallsigh:

[Teatime]

Aha. Thank you, I figured there must've been some clear reference to them, since so many people have listed them as a side in the conflict.

[NENAD]

Has Rich ever produced a political map of the OotS world yet? Because that would be immensely helpful in determining what all the sides are. If he hasn't and it wouldn't give away any plot points to do so, he should include one in the next prequel book.

[David Argall]

No map has been produced, tho we have a thread of the better guesses.

However a map is likely to merely get in the way. It requires effort to make, and to provide details that simply don't make any difference to the story. It can also get in the way, by putting in details that get in the way.

[The Shadow]

Ah! Obviously, there must be a third alignment axis of which we were previously unaware. That would bring the total number of alignments up to 27, and the number of Outer Planes up to 98. It must be true! Now what could the new axis be? Something like Smooth–Crunchy, perhaps…

27 alignments is obvious enough, but how did you arrive at 98 Outer Planes? Even with the most generous assumptions, I can only pump it to 95.

The principle with the Wheel seems to be that the eight "outer" alignments need to have planes of their own, and also planes "in between" them. Plus one extra in the middle.

So the most reasonable number of planes for the Fluffy-Crunchy (my preferred dichotomy) Spheroid would be 73 - three levels of 19 each, with two buffers of 8 each between them.

[Arkenputtyknife]

27 alignments is obvious enough, but how did you arrive at 98 Outer Planes? Even with the most generous assumptions, I can only pump it to 95.
In retrospect, 98 should have been 99 (I forgot the Outlands), but in any case it may or may not be the wrong answer. I'll come back to that. To begin with, let's continue to ignore the Outlands and show how 98 is derived.

Lay out the planes on the perimeter of a 5x5 square, as shown by this page from some obscure Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_planes). You may be more familiar with seeing them as a circle, but a circle is a square with the corners hammered in, and the earliest official alignment diagrams I remember were square.

There are 16 perimeter squares, corresponding to the Outer Planes, and a 3x3 inner square that is cut out: 25-9 = 16 squares in total. The extreme alignments (LG etc) are on the corners, with the not-so-extreme (NG etc) in the middles of the edges and the buffers between them.

Extend it to 3 dimensions: a 5x5x5 cube with a 3x3x3 cube cut out of the middle. That's 125-27 = 98 surface cubes. The extreme alignments (Crunchy Lawful Good etc) are the cubes on the corners, the middling alignments (Crunchy Neutral Good) are in the middles of the edges, and the wet alignments (Crunchy Neutral Neutral) in the centers of the faces. 26 actual alignment cubes, with 72 buffers.

If we add Outlands back in (the central 3x3x3 cube), we're up to 99.

In retrospect, the argument may be flawed. 24 of the cubes (4 on each face) are each in contact with 4 alignment planes and 4 buffer planes, permitting diagonal travel through the cube. That doesn't correspond to anything in the 2D version. If those 24 cubes are removed, we're left with 75, including Outlands.


The principle with the Wheel seems to be that the eight "outer" alignments need to have planes of their own, and also planes "in between" them. Plus one extra in the middle.

So the most reasonable number of planes for the Fluffy-Crunchy (my preferred dichotomy) Spheroid would be 73 - three levels of 19 each, with two buffers of 8 each between them.
Any way I look at it, these numbers have to be wrong. Try sketching it and I think you'll find they don't work.

My Crunchy/Smooth axis comes from peanut butter, if anyone didn't get it.