My own d20 system

[Morty]

I've been tinkering with that system for quite some time, and now I feel it's about ready to post it here and see what do people think of it and maybe ask for suggestions. Do note though, it's far from being done. It's not meant to be taken really seriously either. I just wish I didn't have to translate all this...

The Basics:

My system, its current "name" being Cellars & Monsters, is supposed provide more gritty, non-heroic game, placing it between D&D and WFRPG in terms of ambience, closer to the latter. PCs are adventurers, but while they aren't average dirt farmers, they aren't epic heroes head'n'shoulders above everyone else either. Before they earn fame and power by their actions, they're yet another band of travellers in the weary world on the brink of a bloody war.
C&M is a mix of class-based and skill-based systems. Your character has got a class, but it's capabilities depend heavily on skills bought for XP. It's not governed by levels- you start with a class, and then buy skills and talents, which might open a higher-tier class for you. More on it later.

Rolls:
Rolls are done by all types of die, but most important checks are made using d20. The "core" of the check is Succes Rate(later referred to as SR). Basically, the SR is 1-10. That means if you roll 11 or higher, you succeed. Of course, Difficulty Rating of what you attempt to do will narrow SR and your positive modifiers from skill levels, ability bonuses and others will widen it. Example: a characer is trying to lift a heavy rock. The rock's weight narrows the SR down by 3, making it 1-7. However, character's Strenght modifier is +2, which widens SR back to 1-9.

Actions: During a round of combat(10 seconds), your character has got two actions to use. Some activities require one actions, others two.

Attributes:
Your character has got eight primary attributes. Those are: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Agility, Intelligence, Will, Charisma and Perception. You start of with 5 in each attribute. Then you add racial modifiers and finally, you've got 5 or 6(GM decides) points to spend raising attributes. You can also lower your attributes to raise another ones. Modfier is simply Attribute's value - 5. So with 5 in the attribute the modifier is 0. When lower than 5, you've got negative modifier. 10 means you're extraordinary strong/intelligent/etc. and 1 or 2 means you're pathetically weak/dumb/etc.
Strength measures the power of your muscles and your physical strength. It's used for lifting, carrying, pushing, pulling, damage and sometimes attack rolls in melee combat and to a lesser degree calculating HP.
Constitution measures your toughness, resilience and ability to survive damage and harsh conditions. It's used for calculating HP, and when your character needs to shrug off pain or other negative effects.
Dexterity measures your sleight of hand, coordination and flexibility of your fingers. It's used for skills like sleight of hand or lockpicking(details later) as well as attack rolls in both melee and ranged combat
Agility measures your reflexes, mobility and flexibility. It's used for counting your melee and ranged defense, and skills including escaping bonds, acrobatics, athletics and resisting immobilizing magical effects.
Intelligence measures your capability of understanding, memory and quick thinking. It's used for things like knowledge, your character's attempts at remembering and learning stuff. It's important for casters, although differently for all three types of magic.
Will measures your cold blood, focus and concentration. It's used for attempts to focus on specific task in difficult circumstances, skills like cold blood or concentration, attempts to resist mind-affecting magic and measuring the power of mage's spells.
Charisma measures the strenght of your personality, personal charm and persuasiveness, but not physical attractiveness. It's used for skills including diplomacy and bluff, NPCs initial reaction to your character and for measuring the strenght of priest's prayers.
Perception measures the sharpness of your senses, awareness, and quickness of reaction. It's used for initiative rolls, rolls for seeing, hearing and searching, ranged attacks amd the strenght of druid's psalms.

Skills:
Generally, the whole system operates on skills, which describe your character's education and training. Skills are measured in levels, marked as „+” on the character sheet. Scale is generally from 1-6, though it varies from skill to skill. Your character gets few skills from its starting class and three(or more if GM wants to) points to assign to skills available for this class. Some skills are „inherent”, which means everybody has got at least one level in them. You can't use a skill you've got no levels in.
Advanced skill use: some classes give you access to advanced methods of skill usage. Each of those „tricks” require certian level in the skill to learn.
Talents:
Talents are more unique capabilities of character. You can't take more than one level of talent, but one talent might open another ones for you(think of them as feats). You also get talents from your race and your classes, and some talents are reserved for certain races and classes.

Hit points: They represent your resistance to pain and tough conditions as well as your character's ability to take punishment before breaking down and dying. When you reach 0 hit points, you die.(Note: It'll be changed as soon as I come up with a decent dying subsystem) They're counted like that:
Con score x HP modifier(base HP modifier is 5, it can be lowered or boosted by race, class and talents).
Speed: It measures how far you can go in one round of combat(10 seconds) with walking speed, using a single action. Base speed is 7+Ag meters. If you run, which requires double action, you double your speed. Charging in combat means you can move additional 2 meters.

Races and Classes:

Race:
Obviously, during your character's creation, you choose a race. Typically, race gives you:
-Two attribute penalties and two bonuses, exceptions being humans, who don't get either(although I'm thinking about it) and some races getting other penalties in place of stat penalties
-One racial talent. So far, every race gives you one talent, but I'm planning on making several racial talents to choose from.
-Minor stuff like darkvision and modifiers that come with size.
Playable races are: humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, dark elves and half-breeds.
More on races in other posts, as to not clog this one up.
Class:
The second main part of the character are his or her class. Classes are grouped in tiers- from Tier 0, when a character is a novice in his/her chosen career, and that's not meant for players, to Tier 4, when the character has mastered his/her profession- characters are supposed to achieve this tier after long work, if ever. Normally, players start with Tier 1 classes, which means they have got a little bit of experience. Tier 1 classes are Warrior, Thief, Scoundrel, Swashbuckler, Vagabond, Apprentice Mage, Acolyte Priest and Novice Druid. As with races, I'll detail them later. All classes, however, give you:
-Several skills on 1st level
-Several skills you can invest your starting points into
-One or more talents
Some, but not all, classes will give you Advanced Skill Uses and acces to Combat Styles, which give you combat manuevers.
You don't gain levels in your class, but you can -in fact, you're expected to after a bit of adventuring- change your class to a higher-tiered one if you meet the skill and talent prerequisites.

Combat: Combat is resolved in turns in order of initiative, much like in D&D or WFRPG. Attacks are rolls for Close Combat, Shooting or Throwing skills, with DR being Melee Defense or Ranged Defense of the person attacked. The defences in question are as follows:
-Melee Defense is 1 + Agility Modfier + Shield + Close Combat level/2 + Other modifiers
-Ranged Defense is 1 + Agility Modfier + Shield + Other modifiers
Attacks take a single action, but you can't make two attacks in round unless you've got a talent that allows you to do so. You can also use manuevers provided to you by your Combat Style.
Armor decreases the damage you take. The damage reduced might vary depending on the type of damage, for example chainmail provides good protection against slashing damage, but not so much against piercing.

Spellcasting: In order to use full-fledged magic, your character needs to have Arcane Attunement, Divine Grace or Elemental Sense talent, which in practice means he or she needs to have one of the three spellcasting classes. However, Tier 3 Scoundrel class(that's yet to be named) can learn to cast few arcane spells via observation and learning, and Battle Mages and Paladins(both Tier 2 classes) can use their own forms of combat-dedicated magic. Spellcasting is the feature I forsee I'll have most problems with. I know that wizards will use semi-vancian spellcasting that I'll detail below, but I'm still trying to come up with interesting systems for priests and druids.

List of skills so far: Their names are self-explainatory, I think.
Close Combat, Shooting, Throwing, Stealth, Hiding, Lockpicking, Spot*, Listen*, Searching*, Knowledge(Discipline), Cold Blood*, Riding, Climbing, Flexibility*, Acrobatics, Endurance*, Arcane Magic, Piety, Druidism, Persuasion, Bluff, Intimidate, Craft(various), Survival, Tracking, Gambling
Skills with and „*” are inherent, and every character has got 1st level in them.
Whew, that was long. I'll detail races & classes below, what do you think so far? I guess I'll have to describe the setting as well...

[Morty]

Races:

Human: Humans are the most widespread race of the conitnent. They live everywhere, from mountains to deserts and seaside. They're spread quite thin though, so except on central plains and eastern shore they're usually weaker than their non-human neighbors. They have most diverse nations among all races.
-Humans don't get any attribute penalties or bonuses
-They get Human adaptability feat, which gives them 10% more XP from achievements

Elf: Elves are wild and savage forest-dwellers. Their settlements can be found in forest from north to south. As a race, they tend to be slender, thin and a bit taller than humans.
-Elves get +1 to Perception and Dexterity and -1 to Strength. Also, their Strength modifier isn't used for calculating HP.
-They get Elven senses talent, which allows them to do Search checks without concentrating on it, +2 to Search, Spot and Listen, as well as +2 to illusion disbelief checks.

Dwarf: Preety much Tolkienish dwarves, except they live above ground and have got some Norse flavor thrown in.
-Dwarves get +1 to Constitution and Will, and -1 to Dexterity and Perception
-They get Dwarven resilience talent, which gives them +2 to Damage Reduction and 20% protection agains heat and cold.

Halfling: Halflings are a race of short(about 1,40m on average) humanoids living on vast steppes. They're reckless, bold and are unquestionable masters of horseriding. They speak Common with heavy Ukrainian accent. Due to their small size, they can't use weapons humans treat as two-handed, except crossbows, shortbows and polearms(though they need to be shorter)
-Halflings get +1 to Agility and Dexterity and -1 to Strength and their HP modifier is 1 lower.
-They get Halfling agility talent, which gives them +1 to Flexibility skill, free Acrobatics skill and +1 to Melee Defense.

Orc: Orcs are tough, strong, simple and extremely pragmatic, which is the result of living in the worst parts of the world for their entire history. They're about as tall as humans, but more muscular. They're covered in bristle that ranges from grey to brown, and have got big fangs in their lower jaws.
-Orcs get +1 to Strength and +1 to HP modifier, but they get -1 Agility and -1 Charisma.
-They get Orcish brawn talent, the details of which will come soon

Dark Elf: Distant cousins of elves, although both races would be glad to deny it, dark elves are tallest humanoid race- they reach two meters, sometimes more. They live in thick jungles, They look a bit similiar to elves, but are less skinny, their ears aren't pointy, and they have dark grey skin. They're warriors to their cores- the whole race shares a kind of permanent rage that drives them towards combat, and their strictly militaristic cultures emhasize it. The source of this perpetual bloodlust is unknown.
-Dark elves the +1 to Strength and Agility and -1 to Charisma and Intelligence
-Their racial talent(s) is/are under construction. They have limited darkvision, but are uncomfortable in bright sunlight.

Goblin: Goblins are shrewd, clever and sneaky race of miners, con artists and inventors who live underground. They're the shortes of races, measuring 1,30 m on average. Another characteristic feature of goblins are their big, bat-like ears, grey skin and red eyes. They've got peerless survival instinct(i.e are cowardly by nature). They have the same restriction from their size as halflings do.
-Goblins get +1 Intelligence and Dexterity but -1 Will and HP modifier. Their Strength can't be higher than 8.
-They get Goblin sneakiness talent, which grants them Stealth and Hide as inherent skills as well as +1 to attacks with thrown weapons. They can also see well in the dark, but are dazzled and blinded in sunlight.

Hobgoblin: Hobgoblins are related to goblins, but are taller and less scrawny than them, and their skin ranges from green to yellow instead of having unhealthy grey complexion. Also, they develop fangs in lower jaws. Unlike goblins, they live on grassy plains and are primarily hunters. What they share with their underground-living cousins are large ears, long arms and keen survival instinct.
-Hobgoblins get +1 Agility and Perception, and -1 Will and something else(I'm yet to decide)
-They get Hobgoblin quickness talent, which gives them +2 to initiative, +1 to speed in combat and +1 to Acrobatics skill.

That's all for now, I'll translate the detailed descriptions later.

[Morty]

(Note: under "skills" you've got skills this class can take- and you can take three of them. Underlined ones are those you get from the start. You can always take second level in a skill the class provides.)
(Note 2: I've decided to ignore Tier 0 classes for now, to save myself space and effort)

CLASSES:

TIER 1:

Warrior:
Warriors are people skilled in use of various weapons. They form the bulk of most armed forces of the world.

Skills: Close Combat ++/Shooting ++ Knowledge: Military + Endurance + Healing + Cold Blood + Climbing + Swimming +
HP Modifier: +1
Talents: Weapon Specialization(+1 to attack with single weapon type)
Combat style: Any(Four manuevers)
Futher classes: Veteran, Battle Mage, Paladin

Swashbuckler:
Those are less professional, more adventuring type warriors.
Skills: Close Combat + Dodge + Acrobatics + Flexibilty + Persuasion + Climbing + Swimming +
HP Modifier: +1
Talents: Special Manuevers, Show-off combat
Combat style: Single light weapon(2 manuevers + manuevers from Special Manuevers talent)
Futher classes: [Tier 2 class yet to be named]

Thief:
People skilled in sneaking around, stealing, breaking in, and somethimes killing.
HP Modifier: No change
Skills: Lockpicking + Stealth + Hiding + Bluff + Pickpocketing + Disable Device + Flexibility + Acrobatics + Spot + Listen +
Talents: Additional skill(can take four skills at the start)
Advanced skill uses: Two(Lockpicking, Stealth, Hide, Acrobatics or Pickpocketing)
Combat style: None
Futher classes: Rogue

Vagabond:
A roamer, a traveller, a tracker. Someone who never stays in one place for long and always wants to see something new.
HP Modifier: +1
Skills: Survival + Tracking + Close Combat + Shooting + Climbing + Knowledge: Nature + Flexibility + Riding + Swimming + Spot + Listen + Stealth + Hide +
Talents: Survival Instinct(Int Modifier times per day Vagabond can add Survival level to a non-combat check)
A.S.U: One(Survival, Tracking, Hide or Stealth)
Combat style: Sinlge Light Weapon or Single Medium Weapon(Two manuevers)

Scoundrel:
Someone who gets through life by wits, luck and charm and has always got a trick uner his or her sleeve.
HP Modifier: No change
Skills: Bluff + Diplomacy + Gambling + Knowledge(Any) + Stealth + Hide + Acrobatics + Flexibility +
Talents: Jack of all trades(Int modifier times per day Scounrel can act like he had 1st level in otherwise untrained skill)
A.S.U: Two(Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide or Stealth)
Combat style: None

Apprentice Mage:
A person who has taken first steps on the long, hard road of arcane magic.
HP Modifier: -1
Skills: Arcane Magic + Knowledge(Arcana) + Knowledge(Any) + Cold Blood + Spot +
Talents: Magic attunement(Can cast arcane spells)
Combat style: None
A.S.U: None
Futher classes: Mage

Acolyte Priest:
Someone newly initiated into the worship of a diety.
HP Modifier: -1
Skills: Piety + Knowledge(Religion) + [Futher skill choice depends on chosen religion]
Talents: Divine favor(Can intone prayers that are listened to)
Combat style: None
A.S.U: None
Futher classes: Priest

Novice Druid:
A man or woman who has just discovered the ways of connecting oneself to the forces of nature.
HP Modifier: No change
Skills: Druidism + Knowledge(Nature) + Craft(Herbalism) + Healing + Survival +
Talents: Connection to nature(Can chant psalms to influence the natural world)
Combat style: None
A.S.U: None
Futher classes: Druid

[Chokuto]

Not bad, but I really don't see much of a reason to run this as opposed to just running the current d20 system. You've put a lot of thought and effort into this, I can tell, and am interested to see how it turns out non-theless.

[weishan]

Same as above. Have you seen the E6 rules?

[Dark-Penance]

Rolls:
Rolls are done by all types of die, but most important checks are made using d20. The "core" of the check is Succes Rate(later referred to as SR). Basically, the SR is 11-20(actually, I've been using 1-10 so far, just for the heck of it, but either's fine, and 11-20 is less likely to cause confusion). That means if you roll 11 or higher, you succeed. Of course, Difficulty Rating of what you attempt to do will narrow SR and your positive modifiers from skill levels, ability bonuses and others will widen it. Example: a characer is trying to lift a heavy rock. The rock's weight narrows the SR down by 3, making it 14-20. However, character's Strenght modifier is +2, which widens SR back to 12-20.

So basically everything is DC 11 as default and some things have higher DCs (aforementioned rock)... That's what that boils down to in D&D. The +2 "widening" the gap produces the same increase in success as adding +2 to a roll does if you roll a d20 against a DC.

[Morty]

Same as above. Have you seen the E6 rules?

No, I didn't. But from what I've heard, it's still not quite the same to what I'm trying to achieve here.


So basically everything is DC 11 as default and some things have higher DCs (aforementioned rock)... That's what that boils down to in D&D. The +2 "widening" the gap produces the same increase in success as adding +2 to a roll does if you roll a d20 against a DC.

Sure, yeah. That's still D20 system after all. There are other things to distinguish it from D&D. Rolling the other way around is just to add some variety. Also, when designing this thing I had 1-10 SR in mind, and I turned it to 11-20 exactly so that people used to normal D20 don't get confused.
EDIT: In other news, classes are here.

[Morty]

While I know this is thread necromancy and this system didn't get much attention, I finished the rules for magic for my system so I might as well post them here.

Arcane Magic
Arcane magic is the art of shaping the ley lines of the magical field that covers the entire world. It's a dangerous and unpredictable craft, but the power it offers draws many from all races to pursue it. The practicioners of arcane magics are called mages, but there are many ways of practicing the craft. Human and dwarven societies produce mages most often, though they can be seen among other races as well, although looking for an orc or hobgoblin mage would be a hard task. Arcane spells are divided into six schools(that I'll detail later).
Now, the crunch: To cast a spell, a mage have to:
-Obtain the spell inscribed somewhere. Usually it's a book or a scroll, but everything will do.
-Understand the nature of the spell, which requires Arcane Magic check governed by Intelligence with SR modified by spell's Power Level and takes 30 minutes/spell's Power level. If the mage fails the check, he can try later on the next day. The mage needs to do this only once- once understood spell remains so.
-Weave the spell from the ley lines of the magical field. This requires a succesfull Arcane Magic check governed by Will with SR modified by spell's Power Level and takes 5 minutes/spell's Power Level. By spending additional 5 minutes, you can widen the SR by 1, but not more. Spells with PL lower than 7 can be stored inside mage's mind to be used later. The limit of stored spells is In x Arcane Magic x 2. Most spells take up one "slot", some more, some can't be stored at all.
-Cast the spell. It does not require any rolls, but the weave is undone and the spell needs to be woven again.
In addition, but due to the chaotic and reality-warping nature of the ley lines, casting spells can have unpredictable effects. If the mage casts a spell in the next round after casting another one, GM rolls d20. If he rolls a 20, a Wild Magic effect appears. For every spell cast round by round, the probability raises by 1. The same occurs when the mage casts more spells in one hour than his Arcane Magic x 2. Also, there are places where the magical field is tangled, which makes weaving and casting hard or even impossible.

Divinity:
While it is not sure if the gods really exist, or if they're who the priests claim they are, the ones who preach their names can also perform miracles with their help- or so they claim, because many mages and scholars say that priests' power is derived from some otherwordly source by the power of their faith and dedication rather than granted by dieties. In any case, priests can cause supernatural effects by their prayers. The exact words of the prayers vary between faiths of course, as do their effects. Generally, the prayers are divided into those which ask for smiting, protection or help.
For his prayer to be heeded to, the priest needs to:
-Be pure in the eyes of his/her diety, which requires regular prayer and not commiting any grave sins against the faith. Each missing on the daily prayer increases the difficulty of the Divine Favor roll and grave sin against faith prevents the prayer from being listened to at all.
-Know the prayer, which requires learning the text from another priest and meditating upon it.
-Perform the Divine Favor check, which SR is narrowed by prayer's Power Level as well as other circumstances and widened by Piety skill(Charisma or Will, depending on the diety) as well as faith and/or faithful being in grave need or sacrifices made for the diety.
Additionally, if the priest asks for more miracles in the day than his Piety skill x 3, the diety's patience runs out and Divine Favor check SR narrows by 1.

Druidism:
Druidism is the art of attuning oneself to nature so deeply that it allows itself to be changed. Druids wield elemental powers and some of them strive to maintain a balance in all things and are similiar to priests of nature while others use these forces to achieve their own goals, making them akin to mages. In any case, practicioners of druidism shun civilization, seeking places strongly infused with primal elemental forces where their power increases. Druids are most common among elves and hobgoblins, but they can be also found in other races' communities, although dwarven druids are rare and goblin druids practically unheard of. Druidic ways of controlling nature are called psalms and are divided into those that speak about water, air, fire and earth. To succesfully speak to forces of nature through a psalm, a druid needs to:
-Know the psalm, learning it from another druid or some sort of inscription
-Draw enough raw elemental power from nature, which requires succesful Druidism check governed by Senses and one action/10 drawn points and being close to element's source. The limit of the points a druid can draw is Senses x Intelligence x Druidism. The point pool can be filled with the powers of four elements in any proportions. The power can be held until druid falls asleep. The point pool doesn't have to be filled in one go, but between two drawings larger than 1/4 of the pool there have to be at least 5 minutes.
-Spend the amount of power required by the psalm. Each psalm is tied to one element and can't be sung using the power of another one.
Additionally, if the druid is in place where the particular element runs strong, drawing its energies and singing psalms tied to it is easier- Druidism checks to draw power are easier and psalms require less power. If the power of the particular element is weaker in a place druid is in, the situation is reversed.

Whew, that was long. There are other types of supernatural activities in the system, namely necromancy, summoning and alchemy, but I don't know if I'll detail them mechanicaly. If only I could just copy/paste all this from my computer here...

[TreesOfDeath]

Not bad, but I really don't see much of a reason to run this as opposed to just running the current d20 system. You've put a lot of thought and effort into this, I can tell, and am interested to see how it turns out non-theless.

I'm sort of the same, and I'm also intrested how this will turn out.
I'm really just posting to tag this thread

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I like it a lot although I don't see how it competes with playing D&D (or something similar) at a low LV.
What are the advantages of cellars & monsters over any other fantasy setting played LV 1-5? How is the concept or gameplay better or different than a homebrewed campaign setting? :smallconfused: :smalleek: :smallannoyed:

However I can tell you put a lot of hard work and thought into it and I like it so I give it a:

C- for originality :smallannoyed:
a B+ for system and gameplay :smallsmile:
a D for name (no offence, but "cellars and monsters" dosen't roll off the tongue very well and isen't very original) :smalleek:
and a B overall :smallwink: keep up the good work!

[Morty]

What are the advantages of cellars & monsters over any other fantasy setting played LV 1-5? How is the concept or gameplay better or different than a homebrewed campaign setting? :smallconfused: :smalleek: :smallannoyed:

Unlike D&D, this system is designed entirely for the purpose of low-powered play. It also doesn't use levels of any sort. In short, it's not like D&D at all, the only thing similar here is that it uses 20-sided dice.


a D for name (no offence, but "cellars and monsters" dosen't roll off the tongue very well and isen't very original) :smalleek:


I thought it was obvious for everyone that the name is entirely tongue-in-cheek.

[erikun]

Well, I only read through the first two posts, but here are my thoughts.

You'll want to decide if you will be using roll under (1-10 success) or roll over (11-20 success) and stick with it. There's no right answer, but it will be confusing if you keep switching between the two.

The roll-under system has the advantage of always modifying the target number, where penalities always reduce it and bonuses always increase it. To use your example, the rock is so heavy it imposes a -3 penality to the Success Rate (1-7 success). However, you have a high enough Strength that you gain a +2 bonus to the Success Rate (1-9 success).

The roll-over system is more familiar with D&D players, it is also more intuitive if you are only dealing with one side of the equation. Players just roll d20 and add their bonuses, while the GM adds to the difficulty for challanges. For the same example, the normal Success Rate is (11-20). The rock would increase the difficulty by 3 points, up to (14-20), while the high strength would add a +2 bonus to the die roll, for a Success Range of (14-22).

--

In a related topic, why do you have an ability range of (1, 10) as opposed to (-5, 5) for adding/subtracting bonuses to the roll-over system, or to (6, 15) for the base Success Rate of the roll-under system? Do the numbers on the abilities relate to the skill in some way?

Needless to say, some of your examples (such as combat defenses) don't make a bit of sense without knowing how rolls work in the system!

--

Elves only have one penality, not two. Also, Strength isn't used to determine HP anyways.

--

Other than that, it looks like it could be an interesting system - assuming you're looking at giving it quite a bit of polish before it's done. I'm seeing a lot of ideas but not much of a final decision so far.

[Morty]

Well, I only read through the first two posts, but here are my thoughts.

You'll want to decide if you will be using roll under (1-10 success) or roll over (11-20 success) and stick with it. There's no right answer, but it will be confusing if you keep switching between the two.

The roll-under system has the advantage of always modifying the target number, where penalities always reduce it and bonuses always increase it. To use your example, the rock is so heavy it imposes a -3 penality to the Success Rate (1-7 success). However, you have a high enough Strength that you gain a +2 bonus to the Success Rate (1-9 success).

The roll-over system is more familiar with D&D players, it is also more intuitive if you are only dealing with one side of the equation. Players just roll d20 and add their bonuses, while the GM adds to the difficulty for challanges. For the same example, the normal Success Rate is (11-20). The rock would increase the difficulty by 3 points, up to (14-20), while the high strength would add a +2 bonus to the die roll, for a Success Range of (14-22).

The roll-over option was added as a bit of an afterthought, the system is done under an assuption of the roll-under system. I guess I'll simply stick with the latter.


In a related topic, why do you have an ability range of (1, 10) as opposed to (-5, 5) for adding/subtracting bonuses to the roll-over system, or to (6, 15) for the base Success Rate of the roll-under system? Do the numbers on the abilities relate to the skill in some way?

I simply think it's more elegant to have attributes from 1 to 10.


Needless to say, some of your examples (such as combat defenses) don't make a bit of sense without knowing how rolls work in the system!

Why is that? I'm not sure what you mean here.


Elves only have one penality, not two. Also, Strength isn't used to determine HP anyways.


Actually, in the current version of my notes, it is, it's just that I haven't updated the version here fully because of the lack of interest.

[erikun]

Why is that? I'm not sure what you mean here.
Primarily, because I don't know what they mean. Okay, if I have an Agility 7, that apparently gives me a +2 bonus. So I should have a Melee Defense of 3. Does this mean someone trying to hit me needs to roll 1-7 (that is, SR 10 - 3) to hit me? Do they get bonuses to hit as they level up? It looks like I could get my Melee Defense up to 9 or higher, which would make me virtually untouchable.

[Morty]

Melee defense narrows the success rate of an attack, yes. The attack is basically a test of your Close Combat skill, which depends on Strenght or Dexterity depending on your combat style.


Attacks are rolls for Close Combat, Shooting or Throwing skills

And no, noone gets bonuses to hit as they level up, because there are no levels.

[slyfox99]

I'm liking the system, especially the part where experience is used (if I read it correctly) to buy skill improvements as opposed to levels. Reminds me of the original Chaosium system from the 80's, with the percentile dice. In games like Call of Cthulu or Stormbringer, one kept track of each skill one successfully used during play, whether it was picking locks, hitting someone with a sword, or a history check, and after the game, you'd roll each skill again. If the percentile dice rolled higher than the current rating, you got to improve the rating. (During the game, success was rolling lower than the rating; if you had a 67% chance of hitting with a broadsword, you had to roll a 67 or lower).

You have put a lot of work into your system, and just going by what you wrote about each race, you seem to have a world developed, too. I'd like to see more about that.

[Kushōsaku]

I also really like your idea and to be honest I just registered to encourage you and give you some feedback :smallbiggrin: (*cough* spoilerd because of size... got a bit carried away)


Having a point-buy character development always seemed more organic to me than getting a load of new abilities dumped on a character whenever she has collected an arbitrary amount of XP. Buying selected abilities with XP seems so much more logical, which is why I have also chosen this method for my own homebrew system. Starting with a certain class nevertheless is a very nice idea to avoid confusion during character creation and reflects the profession-oriented training most people - and thus also charaters in a fantasy game - receive growing up.

This leads to the second thing I like a lot, your idea of several tiers in each class. Reminds me of the job system in some good ol' RPGs like Final Fantasy or Seiken Densetsu 3 (Secret of Mana 2). If you're not familiar with the latter, I'd recommend googling it and having a look at a walkthrough. It might help you in the name finding process for your classes. I think you might even be able to design a "class-tree" that shows which class can lead to which, maybe offering several ways to reach a certain goal (e.g. the Battle Mage might be available for the Fighter as well as the Apprentice Mage, as both fulfill some of the requirements and just have to catch up with the rest... but from a different angle).

What didn't really get so far is how attaining a higher tier class affects the abilities of a character.
- Do you have to pay XP for that, too? Or is it sufficient to fulfill all requirements and then receive some inplay training/promotion/inauguration/etc?
- And what's the effect besides having a different title? Instant free new talents & skills? Or just some modification of existing talents (e.g. access to better spells) and an expansion of your "XP-shopping list".
In both cases I'd actually prefer the latter options, which IMHO have more flavour.

Anyway, from what I imagine it to be, I think this concept is way better than Prestige Classes, which actually just dump more and more abilities on a character, whether he likes them or not. At least that's my impression as an former AD&D but not D&D player. In this forum I've come across statements like "to get amazing ability X you have to take 3 levels of Y, which would be a real waste of time, if it weren't for X" a lot. This won't happen in your system. Furthermore character development will be a lot smoother, as you don't have to ziggzagg between completely unrelated classes, which to be honest doesn't make a lot of sense inplay most if the time, but have the freedom & precision to learn what you're actually interested in and what is actually based on what the character experienced. You know all that, I just wanted to point it out for those who say that your system were just like D&D. It's not :smalltongue:

What I also like is your definition and devision of the eight attributes, four physical and four mental ones. I like symmetry, you got lots of it in your draft. A base score of 5 with modifiers directly deducted from it by simple subtraction is also a very smart idea. This way every point counts - not just every other point.

Some aspects of your draft on races seem a bit odd to me, but that's just a matter of personal taste. Everyone likes their elves and dwarves a bit different :smallwink: I like the twist of giving dwarves access to arcane magic, something quite untypical (impossible?) in D&D, but it matches Norse mythology, I think, where dwarves are masterly creators of magical artifacts.

Also a big thumbs-up for your effort to give each approach to magic a different flavour. Still a bit sketchy, but I think you're the right track there.

Your druidic magic reminds me a bit of the Magic cardgame, with each psalm requiring different types of "mana". I think that's a really really nice touch and I'm actually envious it doesn't fit in my magic system (at least not yet... still thinking about how to make it fit :smallbiggrin:). A psalm to summon rain or fog could require air and water mana, to let a tree grow the druid needs earth and water mana, for a sandstorm air and earth mana and for a lightning strike lots of air and fire mana and so on. Very powerful psalms might even require three types (thunderstorm = air, water, fire), metamagic or animal-related psalms all four of them, as living beings can be described as composed of all four elements (Breath = Air, Warmth = Fire, Fluids = Water, Bones & Flesh = Earth). Though a psalm summoning birds might require more air, which is then considered essential, and less earth; summoning fish might require more water and less fire etc.
What confused me a bit is the part about losing all your mana when you go to sleep... did I misread that? I'd see your point there, but wouldn't it a bit harsh to have to start all over again every morning especially given that the other types of magic do not seem to have "magic points"? Druids then must be really scared to fall a sleep after a good meal... or caused by magic - one sleep-spell and your druid is stripped from all his magic for now. You might consider a loss per hour of sleep and for higher tiers the ability to keep a certain percentage no matter how long you sleep. Also interesting for higher tiers representing a special kind of druid might be modified costs regarding appropriate mana types (e.g. Swamp Druids only have to pay half when it comes to earth and water, but double for fire; Desert Druids only have to pay half for air and fire, but double for water; Beast Druids can completely leave out one non-essential mana-type for animal psalms or at least substitute it with another type), or gathering certain types of mana faster/store more of it.

Although the druid can gather mana multiple times a day, he is still dependent on his environment and has to keep track of resources. I feel this might be a bit unfair considering the fact the other two types of magic have very loose limitations. I can't really imagine such a mage using all of her available spells before being able to recharge and the priest can simply continue casting if he has good attributes and can compensate the penalty for exceeding his limit. Also I've come to realize that it's very hard to compare the balance between different types of magic when each works in a completely different way. A common base line makes it so much easier, this is why the different types of magic in my system all use the same rules for check difficulty, magic point costs and improvement XP-costs. Nevertheless, they regenerate differently, have different systematical division and unique inplay explanations. Just in case you want to add "magic points" for the other two types of magic in order to balance things out, I'd like to share some of the ideas I came up with.

For divine magic you might consider having "karma" (= deitie's affection/grace/patience) depending on Charisma/Will/Piety. To cast a prayer you need a certain amount of karma. Great miracles consume more karma than small blessings, which means that a deity is willing to grant more small favours than huge ones, which I find more appealing and logical. The principle of your idea would remain the same: Getting a certain amount prayers granted over a certain time, but you'd just take the magnitude of the favour into account. A priest regains spent karma by acting appropriately to her faith. I'd suggest having a general regeneration rate per day (depending on the Piety skill), modified by one's behaviour (x2 very devoted; x1 as expected (=normal); x0,5 flawed or lacking enthusiasm; x0,25 inappropriate but still tolerable; x0 completely inappropriate (= no regeneration)). Individual actions and special events result in a modest amount of spontaneous regeneration (e.g. converting a nonbeliever, defeating an enemy of the faith, attending mass, ...). This way players of divine casters will be motivated to actually show some piety, not merely avoid grave mistakes that would make them fall from grace. On the one hand you could make them realize inappropriate behavior more directly than by penalizing their magic-roll, which they might not even notice because it succeeded anyway. Just cut off/squeeze their support line and watch them amend. On the other hand you could reward them for good roleplay and outstanding actions and show direct divine support. The paladin has slain the demon and instantly regains some karma, which he can then use to heal his fallen comrade. How heroic is that? :smallcool: In higher tiers the maximum karma and regeneration rate might increase as a modification of the basic talent, independently from the attribute scores. Cost for certain types of prayers might decrease (reflecting a certain role represented by the higher-tier class e.g. Crusader - combat prayers are cheaper; Inquisitor - divination prayers are cheaper; Zealot - alignment-bound prayers are cheaper; Abbot - healing prayers are cheaper; Bishop - charm and domination prayers are cheaper; ...) thus enabling the priest to request & cast more of them.

To keep things fair, arcane casters would need a similar limitation besides the time needed to prepare spells. If your arcane magic users would regenerate their "focus" (= concentration usable for magic) simply by sleeping or (more slowly by) meditating you'd have a nice contrast to the other two. Maybe you could add very rare and expensive magic potions for instant regeneration, as an option. Similar to the divine caster, bigger spells need more focus, thus it would possible to prepare more smaller spells than complicated ones. Again, your basic idea would remain unchanged: The mage still has a maximum capacity for spells (depending on Intelligence/Will/Spellcraft), but instead of being able to refill it as often as he wants to, he'd have a reasonable limitation. Yet he could leave some of his potential untouched for later use, e.g. preparing spells worth 15 focus points from his maximum of 25. Thus he could still prepare more spells later on, using the leftover 10 focus points when he runs out of spells. If he has enough time to meditate in between, he might even regain some of the spent focus. He'd still be flexible, but not inexhaustible. A good night's sleep might completely replenish his focus, giving him an advantage over the slower regenerating priest and the environment depending druid, yet he would lack the possibility of divine instant regeneration or druidic fast in-between-events regeneration (short of the mentioned very rare potions). In higher tiers the maximum focus and regeneration rate might increase (especially relevant for meditation during the day) as a modification of the basic talent, independently from the attribute scores. Cost for certain types of spells might decrease (reflecting a certain role represented by the higher-tier class e.g. Evocer - raw-energy spells are cheaper; Necromancer - necromantic spells are cheaper; Caller - summoning spells are cheaper; Illusionist - illusion spells are cheaper; Bender - charming spells are cheaper;...) thus enabling the mage to prepare & cast more of them.

Finding proper formulae for max. MP etc. will then depend on the rest of your magic system... How many power levels are there? How often should a character of be able to cast magic? I'd advise you to treat all types of magic as mechanically equal. If a power level 1 prayer requires 2 karma, the same should be true for a power level 1 spell regarding focus. And a power level 1 psalm might require 1 earth mana and 1 air mana or such. If a divine magic user gets Attribute x Skill x Talent-depending-factor karma points, the others should get the same formula, otherwise attributes and skills will be of different value for different magic-users. You can still regulate the amount of magic available "per day" by wisely choosing the regeneration rates and casting conditions. If you decide to use my suggestions from above, a priest will always be more considerate and economic with his magic, because he actually had to earn his karma. A mage can risk to waste some spells, as she will regain her focus anyway over night and doesn't have to justify its use to anyone. A druid is somewhere in between. He has to be cautious, as he can't be sure whether a certain type of mana will be available for a refill later on, thus he has to balance his supply. Furthermore, although he's not accountable to a deity for abusing their power, he might still be concerned about the natural balance and won't (or shouldn't) exploit the mana sources around him and thus not waste his magic.

With a system where you have to roll to cast magic, you could also add an option for free magic. More difficult but without having to know a predefined formulae/liturgy. The player describes the desired effect, and the DM assigns a difficulty (= narrowing the success range). To keep things fair (and to have an explanation why people bother to learn fixed spells) spontaneously mimicking an existing spell might have a considerable mod to represent the increased difficulty (e.g. +5).

Something I'd also be interested in is how you plan to calculate XP costs for the various improvements. How much does a +1 in an attribute score cost in comparison to a +1 in a skill? How much more expensive will it be to raise a score from 4 to 5 than from 7 to 8? How much time has to pass between two improvements of the same score? How much XP can a character gain during one fight/event/session? Are those XP tied to be used related to stuff that took place during the last session (thus making it impossible to improve a knowlegde skill with XP gained from a fight)? Or can they be saved, distributed and retroactively invested?
That's a tough issue I also had/have to face working on my system, and by now I fully understand why people use fixed level advancement instead of point-buy, although the latter makes so much more sense. Maybe some insight in your thought process might help me along, too :smallsmile:

Two mechanical things:

Hit points: Con score x HP modifier
If you decide to take Strength into account, too, I'd also suggest to include Will to the same extent. Thus if you decide to add the ST mod, also add the WI mod, because if hit points represent your ability to go on despite pain and injury, your willpower (or the lack thereof) should not be neglected. A fighter with low will should be a bit less resilient than his twin brother with stronger willpower.

Speed: Base speed is 7+Ag meters. If you run, which requires double action, you can move additional 2 meters.
So for a standard character this would be 7+5=12 m in 5 seconds (half a round), which sounds reasonable. But shouldn't using your second action to run simply double that? 12 more meters in another 5 seconds, instead of merely adding 2 more meters? Would make sense to me, and probably thats even just a typo :smallamused:

And finally some more name suggestions for higher tiers, disregarding potential crossroads/overlapping:

Fighter
-- Warrior (specializing on specific weapon)
---- Gladiator (specializing on duels)
---- Veteran (specializing on battles)
---- Guardian (specializing on personal protection)
-- Magic Blade (tapping into arcane magic)
---- Battle Mage (able to cast arcane magic)
-- Knight (tapping into divine magic)
---- Paladin (able to cast divine magic)

Swashbuckler
-- Pirate
---- Captain

Thief
-- Scout (specializing in adventuring)
---- Pathfinder
-- Rogue (specializing in stealth)
---- Assassin (specializing in murder)
---- Spy (specializing in infiltration/information)
---- Master thief (specializing in thievery)
-- Bandit (specializing in organized crime)
---- "Mafioso" (can't think of a good fantasy-themed name)

Vagabond
-- Wanderer (tapping into druidic magic)
---- Ranger (able to cast druidic magic)

Scoundrel
-- Trickster (sleight-of-hand focus)
---- ... (....)
-- Bard (music focus)
---- Minstrel (able to use magical songs)
-- Jester (artistic focus)
---- ... (....)

Apprentice
-- Wizard (preference for constructive/white magic)
---- Sage (specialized in divinations)
---- Preserver (specialized in protection)
---- Magistrate (specialized in antimagic)
-- Mage (preference for utility/neutral magic)
---- Bender (specialized in charms & mind magic)
---- Enchanter (specialized in creation & imbuing)
---- Illusionist (specialized in illusions)
-- Warlock (preference for destructive/dark magic)
---- Necromancer (specialized in necromancy)
---- Caller (specialized in summoning)
---- Evoker (specialized in raw-energy magic)

Acolyte
-- Priest (missionary/active vocation)
---- Bishop (social/political focus)
---- Crusader (war/combat focus)
---- Zealot (missionary focus)
---- Inquisitor (investigative focus)
-- Monk/Nunn (pacifistic/passive vocation)
---- Abbot (healing/protection focus)
---- Archivist (knowledge/organization focus)
---- Mystic (spiritual/solitary focus)

Novice
-- Druid (drawing power from the four elements)
---- Swamp Druid (water/earth +, fire -)
---- Sea Druid (water/air +, earth -)
---- Forest Druid (air/earth +, fire -)
---- Desert Druid (air/fire +, water -)
---- Mountain Druid (earth/fire +, air -)
---- Beast Druid
-- Witch (drawing power from sun, moon, stars & shadows)
---- Sorceress (specializing in light & benevolent magic)
---- Hag (specializing in curses & shadow magic)
(Witch magic could be treated like druidic magic, but the four mana types are sun/moon/twilight/darkness. Sun mana can be drawn during day and is used for good/constructive/white magic, moon mana can be drawn at night and used for neutral/charming/illusion/shapechange magic, darkness can only be drawn in utter absence of any light and can be used for evil/destructive magic and curses. Drawing twilight mana might require certain constellations and thus be reserved to fuel special/rare/powerfull psalms or metamagic. Like in druidic magic, psalms usually require more than one type of mana, but the relation is way more one-sided, e.g. 5 points of sun mana and only one point of moon mana to pay a total of 6 for a benevolent psalm of power level 3. It might be forbidden to use sun and darkness mana in one psalm together... Or one of each might replace a missing twilight mana if combined, whereas twilight mana might be usable instead of either. "Psalms" might also here be called "chants". The novice obviously has to chose which path to follow - druid or witch - from the very beginning.)

All that might be a bit too much feedback, I fear. Hope you can use some of it nevertheless :smallredface:

[Morty]

So, um. Wow. That's a lot of stuff. Thank you for taking the time to write it all. It and the other feeback I got, might actually motivate me to get off my lazy butt and start working. :smallwink: Now to answer some issues you mentioned...

1. Advanced classes. To get into an advanced class, you have to learn appropriate skills and talents and then spend XP on the class itself. Once you get such a class, you get a unique talent - for example, when a Warrior advances to a Veteran, he can use dabble in other combat styles than his own. I have the 2nd tier classes mostly written up, but it might - and probably will, in fact - change.
I also like your suggestions for the advanced classes itself and I might use them, with one exception - no class except Mages, Druids and Priests can ever use real magic. Magic is supposed to be exclusive. Champions a.k.a Paladins and Battle Mages get their own extraordinary and supernatural abilities but they work differently - I'm not yet sure how exactly. The exception is that very experienced scoundrels who are very smart can pick up some arcane tricks they can perform with little to no idea about how they actually work.

2. Magic. You have some good points there. Magic is hard to get right, as you're certainly aware - especially if you want to make each type unique, as I do. I know that divine magic could use some more limits but when comparing arcane magic to druidism, you forget that a druid doesn't risk a psalm blowing up in his face - a mage does. Still, the part about losing all mana when going to sleep does seem a bit too harsh when I think about it. It's one of those things that seem like a good idea at a time and then you forget about them... I'll change it or remove it.
Now, on the magic itself - my goal is to make players think before using it. Arcane magic warps reality, divine magic is dependent on outside sources and druidic magic relies on nature. None of them is always better than mundane means of solving problems and trying to using any of them as a tool is a recipe for disaster. I have a lot of ideas about it, I don't always manage to make them work mechanically... the general idea is that the reality itself opposes being violated by magic users.
As for free magic - I already have an option for more advanced mages to learn to cast weak spells at will. However, the idea of "free magic" is against the spirit of the system.
Your idea on a "karma" and "focus" limitation looks good. It makes the magic systems a bit more similar to each other but perhaps it's for the best.
I should also note that the actual users of those magic systems can vary wildly - a primitive witch doctor can be an arcane magic user or a druid, or perhaps an alchemist. A mage can be a human member of a mages' guild casting spells for money or a dwarven master of knowledge. A druid can be a contemplative elven sage or a dark elven master of fire using the destructive aspect of nature in battle. Priests vary even more, especially when you count in shamans who pray to spirits rather than gods(the mechanics remain mostly the same). Still, the druid specializations sound like a good idea to spice this subsystem up.
And finally - there are three magic systems I didn't detail here, because I'm not sure where to go with them, namely alchemy, necromancy and summoning.

3. Some other stuff.
Adding Will as another factor in calculating HP might be a good idea. I'll think about it. As for speed... I'm not sure what I was trying to do with it. I think I might have taken the idea from 2nd edition WFRP.

[elpollo]

Hey there. I'll follow Kushōsaku's example and try to avoid clogging up the thread too much with a spoiler, although he's written a good deal more than me.

This concerns points that you have made:

Firstly, I'm intrigued as to why you chose to do away with levels but still have classes around. If you're moving to a "buy what you want with experience" system, why have them at all? You could include some as fantasy archetypes, but do they have to be enforced?

Rolls


Rolling the other way around is just to add some variety.

Others have mentioned this already, but it's damn important. Please don't design mechanics purely with the intention of having them be different than D&D. If something works, use it. It's the stuff that doesn't that you want to change. Yes, it's basically the same mechanic as D&D, but the way you've worded it just sounds counter-intuitive to me. It's the talk of narrowing and widening - I understand what you mean, but it's so much easier to say "Armour Class 15, +2 to the attack, bamf".

Attributes

Why not 0-5 (technically -1 to 5 with racial modifiers)? Everything starts with 5 in something but takes 5 away to calculate modifiers, which are really what matters. Cut out the middle-man, man!

As for the choice of Attributes, they seems fine (I say fine - I've used the same set after speaking to someone who was quite insistant that the difference between Dexterity and Agility should be seperate).

Actions

You say you get two actions per turn (incidentally, why 10 second rounds?). Can you attack twice in a turn? If not, why not stay with the D&D "Standard" and "Move" (I'd advise going 4E and have Free, Minor, Move and Standard, since experience tells me it works well. Get rid of all that Swift nonsense)?

Hit Points

Is it instant death at 0HP? Are there any penalties for having few hit points? I can't really comment on the quantity until we know how damage works, of course (although this does remind me a little of the Unisystem (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1) [CJ Carella's Witchcraft is a free RPG that uses the Unisystem, which might be worth looking if you haven't seen it yet. It's also used by All Flesh Must Be Eaten and the Buffy RPG]. Weapons deal damage equal to their damage die multiplied by your strength plus or minus a modifier, so a sword might be 1d8 x (STR + 1) or the like).

Skills

Lock-picking, Arcane Magic, Piety, Druidism, possible Craft and Tracking. These are the skills that people probably won't be able to use without training (and maybe not even them - I've got know how pin tumbler locks work, but have never tried picking one. I reckon I could given enough time). All of the others are doable to some degree by an untrained lout.

What are Cold Blood and Flexibility?

Races

A 10% experience bonus will eventually trump attribute boosts and minor abilities. Why are humans more adaptable, anyway? I assume this arose through racial balance issues, but why would we be better at adapting or specialising or generalising or whatever-ing than any other race? Any argument you make for humans can be applied to at least one other race in that list (apart from "They're human", I suppose). Personally I'd do away with actual differences for races at character creation. Let them unlock different Talents which can (but don't have) to be bought.

It's a shame to see Tolkien still heavily influencing the races, but at least orcs can be good. Why must elves forever be graceful but weak?



And in response to points raised by Kushōsaku:


Movement Speed

I very much agree. The Free/Minor/Move/Standard model of actions accounts for this.

Classes

None of the Tier 3 offshoots from the Warrior are particularly linked to skill with a weapon - Duelling (why not Duellist rather than Gladiator?), Battlefields (are you angling for commanding troops? Some sort of Commander name would be more appropriate, since by Tier 3 I imagine anyone would count as a veteran) or Defence (which to me suggests the opposite of a class specialising in the use of a specific weapon - I'm picturing focusing on shields).

Also, I get the impression (partially because you've explicitly stated it, but also because I'm pretty good at reading people) that you're being heavily influenced by JRPGs. Whilst there's nothing wrong with JRPGs per se, they aren't really suited for tabletop play. Large lists of classes and various ways of sneaking round to specialist classes is fine when a computer can easily track these things and display what's available, but it's not really needed in a tabletop rpg. Assuming the continued presence of classes (which I'm still against!), Fighter, Mage, Priest, Thief and whathaveyou are fine - they give an idea of the abilities one will have, but do not restrict you too much. Want to play a fire mage? Take fire spells. Want to be Battle-axe Dave? Take points in various battle-axe skills. Want to be a bandit? Well... do you really need to be part of the thief class to take up banditry?




Reminds me of the original Chaosium system from the 80's, with the percentile dice.

Chaosium are still around, you know? They've released the Basic Roleplaying System that those games were based on as a generic system now.

[Morty]

1. Classes: they're there simply because I find them easier to work with than a purely pointbuy system.
2. Attributes - I find a 1-10 scale more elegant.
3. No, you can't attack twice per turn. Also note that the combat system is still under construction and will change.
4. Instant death at 0 HP is, as mentioned, only temporary, placed there until I can come up with something better. I might even do away with HP altogether.
5. Races. Belive it or not, in the actual racial fluff races are quite non-Tolkienish except perhaps Dwarves. A 10% increase to XP gain may be indeed to strong, but I won't do away with races being different at character creation. Races in the setting are supposed to be fundamentally different from one another.
6. Skills - it's another of those issues that were supposed to be more detailed but weren't due to lack of interest. Cold Blood is basically D&D's Will save and Flexibility is used to break restraints, squeeze in tight spaces et cetera.
7. Rolls - I'm not convinced that they're "counter-intuitive". The only "counter-intuitive" thing about them is that it's different from D&D. And even if they were like that, the system is built around this model of rolling dice.
Also, I modified the "rolls" section to include only the original model.

[elpollo]

1. Fair enough.
2. Again, fair enough. It's your system.
3. Why not adopt the 4th edition nomenclature, then?
4. Sorry, I missed the fact you were planning to change it. I'd be interested in what route you chose on taking. Have you thought about what you'd use instead?
5. Hell, it's a pretty weak complaint of mine, to be honest. I do get the idea of racial modifiers - it's just that it sort of shoehorns certain races into certain classes, especially for casters. Mind you, I suppose a great deal of this is due to stat-escalation, with 14s and 15s no longer being impressive.
6. You could try the World of Darkness approach, where you can try any skill but if you're untrained you take a penalty. This is much larger for mental skills (which typically are the things that you aren't naturally going to be good at, such as hacking computers).
7. Perhaps counter-intuitive was a poor choice of words, but all this talk of widening and narrowing the Success Rate modified by the Difficulty Rates, Skill Ratings or Exchange Rates seems to be smoke and mirrors hiding the fact that it is a task with a difficulty of X, and to succeed you must roll a d20 + your skill and equal or beat X. Yes, it's the same mechanic, but Wizard's way just seems to be better explained.

[Morty]

3. Why not adopt the 4th edition nomenclature, then?

Maybe I will. The current one is inspired by 2nd edition WFRP but for all its faults, 4th edition does run combat rather smoothly. Still, 4th edition combat is similiar to a board game in some respects, and I'm not sure if I want to go in this direction. The combat in Riddle of Steel is pretty amazing, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to implement it here.


4. Sorry, I missed the fact you were planning to change it. I'd be interested in what route you chose on taking. Have you thought about what you'd use instead?

I'm not sure yet. I was going to look into True d20, as I've heard it uses some sort of checks instead of HP. But the option that is a bit more appealing to me is hit points but with other consequences of being injured prestent as well, a bit like in GURPS.


5. Hell, it's a pretty weak complaint of mine, to be honest. I do get the idea of racial modifiers - it's just that it sort of shoehorns certain races into certain classes, especially for casters. Mind you, I suppose a great deal of this is due to stat-escalation, with 14s and 15s no longer being impressive.

Yes, it is an issue. But it's a cost I'm willing to take.


6. You could try the World of Darkness approach, where you can try any skill but if you're untrained you take a penalty. This is much larger for mental skills (which typically are the things that you aren't naturally going to be good at, such as hacking computers).

Right now, some skills are "inherent" and can be used by anyone while others you need to be trained in. But you're right that it needs some polishing - there are things you simply can't do if you're not trained and those you'll simply do badly.


7. Perhaps counter-intuitive was a poor choice of words, but all this talk of widening and narrowing the Success Rate modified by the Difficulty Rates, Skill Ratings or Exchange Rates seems to be smoke and mirrors hiding the fact that it is a task with a difficulty of X, and to succeed you must roll a d20 + your skill and equal or beat X. Yes, it's the same mechanic, but Wizard's way just seems to be better explained.

Perhaps. But regardless, I'm not sure if I want to change the fundamental mechanic.

[Draz74]

I'm not sure yet. I was going to look into True d20, as I've heard it uses some sort of checks instead of HP. But the option that is a bit more appealing to me is hit points but with other consequences of being injured prestent as well, a bit like in GURPS.

You could look into my VP/Injury system (linked in my sig). It was originally inspired by trying to mesh True20 mechanics with Vitality/Wound Points. Then ... I kept poking and prodding it for many months before I posted it here. :smallwink:

[Kushōsaku]

Responding to elpollo :smallsmile:


It's a shame to see Tolkien still heavily influencing the races, but at least orcs can be good. Why must elves forever be graceful but weak?
Well, as I said in my previous post, everyone likes their elves and dwarves somewhat different. I, for instance, like to stick to the classical image presented by Tolkien, which is IMOH unmatched. Therefore I do prefer my elves to be elegant and graceful, not wild or chaotic fairylike like some of the D&D elf races are. And in fact, no Tolkien source I know suggests that elves are physically weak. In contrary, they make great warriors, as some of the greatest heros in Middle Earth history and legend were elves... and they didn't wield a bow, but a sword. One of them even challenged a god in direct physical combat... that has to be worth something. :smallwink:
I think its more of a mechanical problem. If you'd actually create a elf race after Tolkien, they'd excel in about everything… and you don't want that in a game that is supposed to be balanced. Thus you chose one aspect that seems to be the most likely weakness for an elegant, intellectual, artistic, musical, mindful race - namely physical strength. But even then it's up to you as a player whether to comply to such a stereotype intended by a given system or not. Give your per definition weaker elf a high strength score nevertheless and keep improving in that area, and you'll have a good warrior. This, of course, is much easier in a point-buy system, where you have more influence on the actual development of your character... and less likely for optimizers who like to haul in every bit of bonus there is :smallcool:



Also, I get the impression (partially because you've explicitly stated it, but also because I'm pretty good at reading people) that you're being heavily influenced by JRPGs.
I do know some JRPGs, as I used to played them, but I would not say I'm heavily influenced. I just got the impression that Morty's idea was headed in that direction and thus decided to reference to the little I know. Actually I rather draw my inspiration from classical Fantasy literature. :smallbiggrin:


Large lists of classes and various ways of sneaking round to specialist classes is fine when a computer can easily track these things and display what's available, but it's not really needed in a tabletop rpg. […] Want to play a fire mage? Take fire spells. Want to be Battle-axe Dave? Take points in various battle-axe skills. Want to be a bandit? Well... do you really need to be part of the thief class to take up banditry?
I was not sure how these higher tier classes actually influence the character, thus I just toyed with the concept. The suggestions I made were given under the assumption that taking a higher tier class has certain requirements and opens up more options to specialize in a certain field of expertise.
Taking up on your examples: Fire Mage might actually require having taken an above-average amount of fire spells and a certain spellcraft proficiency. By becoming a Fire Mage you'd then get access to some "hidden" fire (meta) magic as well as special abilities like fire resistance/awareness or such (you'd still have to buy that with XP). For your Battle-Axe Dwarf you'd require advanced axe proficiency and then would gain access to special axe-attacks/maneuvers available to no one else. And for the bandit (I admit it's a bit of a stretch) you'd need a group of thugs under your command to qualify, and by taking that higher tier class you'd get access to some new advantages (don't ask me, maybe tax deductions :smalltongue:). Thus it appears you perceived it inversely to the initial idea. Or that I was wrong. With the uncertainty about what Morty intended, it was mostly a collection of possible names and concepts on my part. Which also means that your alternative name suggestions in the warrior department might very well fit better than mine, depending on where he's headed with each class. :smallsmile:
And having those classes as a mere representation of skills and talents a character gets "you can by it with XP"-access to, as well as an inplay title, I don't think they'd be much of an effort to handle - not more than PrCs at any rate. Nothing you'd need a computer for an thus also suited for pen & paper.


Assuming the continued presence of classes (which I'm still against!)
I'm with you on that issue. I got rid of classes in my system entirely, relying only on point-buy and good ol' free interpretation. But I think Morty's concept has a very nice touch, and because I wanted to contribute to his idea, and not impose mine, I went along with it (thou I ended up tossing in my ideas, anyway :smallredface:).

[Kushōsaku]

Responding to Morty :smallbiggrin:


To get into an advanced class, you have to learn appropriate skills and talents and then spend XP on the class itself. Once you get such a class, you get a unique talent.
Thus basically you could also say that with gaining access to the advanced class by fulfilling the requirements and following inplay events (training, ceremony, …), you can by that unique talent with XP, as it practically equals being a member of that class, right? This might be a more "graspable" way to explain entering a advanced class than actually "buying a class". :smallsmile:


No class except Mages, Druids and Priests can ever use real magic. Magic is supposed to be exclusive.
Ah okay, must have over-read that. It's a perfectly valid restriction. But I nevertheless assume that the special abilities of Paladins / War Mages are of divine / arcane nature? Depending on how high of a merit being a Paladin / War Mage should be, inserting another class in between to pave the way (Knight / Magic Blade) might nevertheless be an option.


You have some good points there. Magic is hard to get right, as you're certainly aware - especially if you want to make each type unique, as I do. […] Your idea on a "karma" and "focus" limitation looks good. It makes the magic systems a bit more similar to each other but perhaps it's for the best.
I think you can manage to give each a very unique flavour and still be fair regarding resource management, attribute/skill influence and (thus) XP-costs. Of course, if you want to make a point that arcane magic is more effective and easier to learn than the other two, different limits and costs would be perfectly reasonable. But if you want a balanced magic system, using the same mechanics for each is the easiest and probably best way. Just make sure the inplay explanations stay as unique as they are now (no need for change there) and it feels different to play a caster of each kind. Having different resources & regeneration certainly does contribute a lot to that, as you'll have to adjust your behaviour and tactics depending on which type of magic you use. :smallwink:


My goal is to make players think before using [magic]. […] None of [it] is always better than mundane means of solving problems. I have a lot of ideas about it, I don't always manage to make them work mechanically... the general idea is that the reality itself opposes being violated by magic users.
Sounds like a very interesting and thoughtful concept. I'd love to hear more about these ideas as soon as you get them into writing. :smallbiggrin:


I should also note that the actual users of those magic systems can vary wildly.
As I said in the previous post, I wasn't completely sure what you want your advanced classes to be, thus I simply brainstormed some ideas. Still, I think having a variety of inplay-roles based on one class doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility of a wider range of advanced classes to spice things up. If you manage to link one unique talent - or a useful modification of an existing talent - as well as a broadening of available skills or such, with entering an advanced class, you might get a very interesting class system without actually restricting inplay-roles. Of course an inplay title doesn't need to exist as advanced class, as your witch doctor example shows. Thus a "bishop" in your world might mechanically just be a priest in the hierarchical position of a bishop. But he might also fulfill all requirements and thus get access to the higher tier class. This could be interpreted as his deity actually consenting to his "earthly" position and showing their divine support by granting an aura of authority that boost prayers used to influence and dominate people - the deity is pleased that someone so well in tune with their teachings was chosen to represent their church on such a high level and now wants to ensure his success. All in all, the advanced classes could serve to add more flavour to the game, not restrict it, if you see them as "personification" of certain advantages a character might have. :smallcool:


There are three magic systems I didn't detail here, because I'm not sure where to go with them, namely alchemy, necromancy and summoning.
In my system alchemy is a (demanding) skill, which enables the user to perform real chemistry, which might be considered supernatural by medieval standards, as well as produce very weak magical effects if fantastic components (dragon blood etc) are used. Both necromancy and summoning are merely subtypes of magic, not completely separate kinds of magic. Therefore arcane and divine magic can create necromantic and summoning effects. Thus I fear I can't really be of much help here.
Yet I think treating these three as separate kinds of magic might work in your system, if you don't allow the same effects to be achieved by arcane, divine and druidic magic.
They would probably share a more ritual-bound way of casting, taking more time, material and preparation than the other three. You could thus divide between direct/inspired magic (arcane, divine, druidic) and indirect/ritual magic (alchemy, necromancy, summoning) which would then allow you to use different mechanics. Among the three types of indirect magic the mechanics should be the same, thou. Each type of indirect magic could use a different main attribute… e.g. intelligence for alchemy, will for necromancy and charisma for summoning. Can't see perception fit in with one of those. :smallconfused:
Probably you won't need "magic points" there, because they take too long to be used in combat anyway. But you could prepare stuff to be used in combat... pretty straight forward for alchemy: potions, powders, bombs etc. Takes some time to prepare, but then you'd be limited to the stuff you can carry along and actually have ready. Mighty recipes require lots of time but can have long or even permanent effects (everburning torch etc). For necromancy you could have minions (skeletons, zombies, ghosts) created in lengthy rituals, following you around to be commanded in combat. Additionally you might prepare "soul crystals" for one-time use with an instant effect (fear, curse, posession, dark energy). Summoning might have a similar concept, providing smaller familiars to be ready to serve all the time, as well as summoning orbs containing the essence of mightier beings, destilled in long rituals for one-time use, either creating an instant effect (demon fire, angel light, ...) or for an instant summoning (á la pokemon :smallbiggrin:).


As for speed... I'm not sure what I was trying to do with it. I think I might have taken the idea from 2nd edition WFRP.
Given the rule as it is written like now, I'd never run as a character in your system. I'd always walk as far as I can and then use another action, maybe to slow down the enemy. Choosing to run has to be worth opting out of another action… and should actually make you faster. As it is written, you'd need to run for six rounds to gain an advance worth one round of walking to someone who was walking the whole time. Furthermore, someone with 2 points of Agility more than you could keep up with your sprint by merely walking along. :smallamused:

[Morty]

You could look into my VP/Injury system (linked in my sig). It was originally inspired by trying to mesh True20 mechanics with Vitality/Wound Points. Then ... I kept poking and prodding it for many months before I posted it here. :smallwink:

I'll look into it, thanks. It's made for D&D, but maybe I'll manage to use it.

Now to respond to Kushōsaku...

Thus basically you could also say that with gaining access to the advanced class by fulfilling the requirements and following inplay events (training, ceremony, …), you can by that unique talent with XP, as it practically equals being a member of that class, right? This might be a more "graspable" way to explain entering a advanced class than actually "buying a class".

Perhaps. But having a new class opens up other talents as well. I could present it as talent trees instead, but I prefer the options with advanced classes for aesthetical reasons, so to say. I want a player to feel that his character gets better. Also, note that there can be a wide gap in capabilities between two members of the same class - simply because one of them has much more XP without having advanced into the next tier of classes - s/he decided s/he'd rather spend the XP on other skills and talents.


Ah okay, must have over-read that. It's a perfectly valid restriction. But I nevertheless assume that the special abilities of Paladins / War Mages are of divine / arcane nature? Depending on how high of a merit being a Paladin / War Mage should be, inserting another class in between to pave the way (Knight / Magic Blade) might nevertheless be an option.

Yes, they are arcane/divine in nature, it's just that they're quite narrow and combat-focused. A Warrior who advances into a Champion or Battle Mage class takes first steps on this path and can improve his abilities later.


*magic*

I definetly want the magic types to be balanced between each other - as well as all other classes. And I think I agree that some variety needs to be sacrificed in order to achieve that. Your focus/karma or something similar limit seems a good way to do it.
As for the titles not being equal to classes - that's exaclty how I intend to do it. A bishop may be weaker in invoking miracles than a lower-ranking priest and be elevated into his position due to his knowledge and administrative skills. Or by scheming, if we're talking about the less nice religions. :smallwink:


Sounds like a very interesting and thoughtful concept. I'd love to hear more about these ideas as soon as you get them into writing.


I don't think it's going to be written into the mechanics - it's just an in-game way of explaining about why magic works as it does. But we'll see.
As for alternate types of magic - at some point I came up with the idea to make alchemy more than just potionmaking. I want it to be similar to what medieval people belived magic to be - potions, weird symbols, long formulae. Alchemy would be much safer and easier than arcane magic without the restrictions of druidic and divine magic, but it'd produce less spectacular results. Necromancy and Summoning would consist of lenghty rituals requiring exotic components, like you said. Note though, that other planes in the system are meant to be more spiritual and metaphysical than in D&D. Their effects would be unachivable by the other kinds of magic.
However, I'm seriously considering incorporating Necromancy and Summoning into other magic systems - for the simple reasons of not cluttering the system.


*speed*

You know what? In the notes on my hard drive, it actually looks exactly like you've been telling me it should look. Running means doubling your speed. It's charging that adds 2 meters. I must have messed it up when I was copying the notes. In my detense, I had to translate them.

[elpollo]

Responding to elpollo :smallsmile:
*Snip*


Ah, but the elves not being entirely true to Tolkien doesn't mean they aren't feeling the effects of his influence!

I'm not sure whether the final comment was a nudge towards me, but if not perhaps it should be. Sorry, I'm not trying to force classless or 1d20+X mechanics if they're not wanted.


As for alternate types of magic - at some point I came up with the idea to make alchemy more than just potionmaking. I want it to be similar to what medieval people belived magic to be - potions, weird symbols, long formulae. Alchemy would be much safer and easier than arcane magic without the restrictions of druidic and divine magic, but it'd produce less spectacular results.

Have you ever seen Fullmetal Alchemist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullmetal_Alchemist)? Alchemy in that, whilst often being pretty blatant and powerful (summoning cannons the size of buildings out of sand, anyone?), uses a law of equivalency, where the output has to have the same worth (chemically, spiritually, whatever) as the input. It's very much like the idea of transmutations of metals that the greeks had, so perhaps it might be worth looking at. You could give more practical applications for farmers and workers - you can't bring someone back to life, as you'd be creating this life force for no cost (which could introduce rogue alchemists trying to switch bodies or sacrifice others to bring people back), but you could create rain by performing rituals on a lake and having the water be shifted into the sky.

[Kushōsaku]

Ah, but the elves not being entirely true to Tolkien doesn't mean they aren't feeling the effects of his influence!
True true :smallsmile: I was just shocked by the use of "shame" and "Tolkien" in the same sentence and thus jumped to the rescue :smalltongue:


I'm not sure whether the final comment was a nudge towards me, but if not perhaps it should be. Sorry, I'm not trying to force classless or 1d20+X mechanics if they're not wanted.
Nope, that wasn't directed to you. More of a general statement why I discussed classes although I personally think it's overall a smooth move to get rid of them. :smallbiggrin: In this system, however, I think they'd work just fine.


Fullmetal Alchemist
Yeah, I've seen that series and it really might be a good starting point if you want to go beyond mere "fantasy chemistry"-alchemy. It also inspired a variation of magic in my system that - mixed with some feng shui ideas - effectively influences elemental balance and flow. Nothing beyond a concept so far, unfortunaltely :smallfrown:

And another spoiler for Morty :smallsmile:


new class = opens up other talents as well
Okay okay, never mind what I said then :smallwink: Didn't think of that.


class ≠ role
I completely agree, but you might want to make sure that if you use (advanced) classes, they are available to everyone to the same/a fair extent. If a warrior has several options in his career and might gain access to further classes beyond tier 2, and at the same time a priest has already reached his limit at tier 2, players might find that a bit discouraging. The difference between an "apprentice mage"/"acolyte priest" and a "mage"/"priest" is probably not that big, apart from better spellcasting/prayercasting. I feel it would be nice to have something more waiting after that. Thus although every position in a hierarchy and every role in the gameworld can be explained by a variety of reasons (money, heritage, politics, intrigues, skill, ...), some of these "titles" might also exist as advanced classes with unique advantages. Of course it is completely sufficient to say "a warlock is simply a mage with a sinister spell selection and bad intentions", but it might be a nice touch to actually have a "warlock" advanced class that gives a player/character the opportunity to get an advantage from his chosen style. A warrior who has decided to go follow the noble path of knight / paladin is also rewarded by special abilites, so it might be just fair to have the same for other classes and besides it adds some variety. Of course not every arcane magic user who is called a "warlock" would actually a member of that class... he might just gotten off on the wrong foot with the peasants. Also, not every witch on the stake has to be A "witch" :smallwink:


alchemy = more than just potionmaking
Besides the possible concept elpollo mentioned, you might also just broaden the range of what can be produced through alchemy... crystals emitting cold or electricity, glass spheres filled with gases having various magical effects (sleep, poison, paralysis, blindness, ...) when released/shattered, carved gemstones which turn water to wine (or turn rock to mud or make metal hot) by touch, metal that magically warps on command and takes new shapes, balms that close wounds, bombs exploding with an icy/electric/acid blast, paper or rope that incinerates on command, mystic runestones that can ward an area from certain influences etc. By keeping the "based on (fictive) science"-idea, the focus on transformation and the dependence on specific materials and elaborate procedures, you'd make sure that there is a clear distinction between alchemy and arcane magic. You can still have weird symbols and long formulae as much as you like, especially for activation and identification. But a lengthy procedure to create those items and being able to use (most of) them only once might be best to give it the right feel and balance the lack of other limitations as well as the safer use compared to other magic.


I'm seriously considering incorporating Necromancy and Summoning into other magic systems - for the simple reasons of not cluttering the system.
I don't think you'd clutter the system if you have a nice explanation to incorporate them into your magic system and - ideally - find a way to treat all three the same (or at least very similar) mechanically. If there is a set of rules for normal magic and a set of rules for those ritual/process magics, that's hardly too much. Someone who wants to play such a character will gladly have a look at both. Besides I feel that those three might - besides offering full magic to some new classes - be an nice complement for regular casters who bother to spend some time & XP to learn the ways of the ritual. A mage who secretly uses the dark necromantic art, a priest who can summon some extra outside support or a druid that is able to combine nature's resources to unleash magic when there's no mana available because the natural balance is disturbed... or any other combination of those. Neat, I think :smallcool:
A first step to get uniform mechanics for the three indirect types of magic might be to think of a guideline to assess every possible result of those magics in terms of your already existing power levels. Thus a potion that explodes might be power level 1, having a skeleton under your command might be power level 2 and summoning a hellhound to fight for you might be power level 3. As I don't know your categorization of power levels, this is completely arbitrary of course. This would be essential to compare the indirect magic with the direct magic in terms of "is this alchemical rune strong enough to pierce my divine barrier" etc.
Then you could assign a certain base time for creating an effect of certain power level. Power level 1 might take 1 hour, power level 2 maybe 4 hours, power level 3 probably 9 hours (thus the formula would be time = power level squared hours). This depends heavily on the number of power levels you have planned. If there are 9, like in D&D, this might work out well. If you also have power level 0 for very weak magic, you might consider time = (power level +1) squared hours, so you'd have a capstone of 100 h for PL 9. There might be additional modifications for time depending on what is to be created (one-time use item or long lived stuff like minions). But you'd might to keep it simple and already take this into account when determining the power level.
This time does not include the time needed to gather materials, but immediate preparations of the ritual. Thus the ritual time might be divided in preparation time and critical time. You are allowed to pause and distribute the needed hours of your preparation time over several days. The critical time, however, has to be be interrupted. Some crude examples based on the assumptions made above:

Ex 1: Exploding potion. PL 1. Materials needed: sulfuric acid & dragon bone ash. Time: 45 min preparation, 15 min critical. You make your check during the critical phase. If you succeed you have your potion bottled up. If you fail, you burn off your eyebrows. Potion usable once as devastating thrown weapon.
Ex 2: Create a skeleton. PL 2. Materials needed: fleshless corpse & incense. Time: 1 h preparation, 3 h critical. Preparation includes drawing obscure symbols on the floor around the corpse, critical phase begins with burning of incense, critical phase is all chants and mystical gestures, check towards the end, if successful skeleton is animated, if not, time and incense are wasted. Skeleton exists until turned, released or destroyed.
Ex 3: Summoning helhound. PL 3. Materials needed: scapegoat & some human blood & petrol. Time: 5 h preparation, 4 h critical. Preparation consists of drawing a highly complex summoning circle with lots of runes and glyphs and intertwined lines with human blood, scapegoat is then placed in the center and drenched with petrol, 4 h chant begins, ritual ends with torch being thrown in the circle, goat catches fire, if check is successful hellhound appears in burst of fire and devours goat. Hellhound can be either given a task or be bound to a pre-prepared summoning orb for later instant summon (might require an additional check?). If initial check fails, nothing happens and time & sacrifice are wasted & you have to clean the mess. If check fails by a big margin, hellhound appears but attacks summoner.

As you had heavy time and material requirements there would be no need for a "magic point"-like limitation. Alchemy might be limited purely my logistical factors (= how many gadgets can I carry safely... you don't want your flasks to break and the mumbo jumbo stuff to mix). Necromany might also have logistical limits (there are only so many undead that can follow you before you start attracting attention) but if you decide to include "soul crystals" (=instant effect containers) or such, there might be a maximum you can have at a time, depending on your necomancy skill and will. Could also apply for undead minions, of course. Same goes for summoning with familiars and summoning orbs carried.


*running* I must have messed it up when I was copying the notes. In my detense, I had to translate them.
And it all makes sense now :smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

Have you ever seen Fullmetal Alchemist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullmetal_Alchemist)?

I've seen the name thrown around, but I don't read manga so I don't know anything about it. Still, the idea of "output must equal the input" is sound and a good explanation of why some things can't be done.

@Kushōsaku

*classes*

First, all classes give acess to advanced options up to Tier Four, the highest one. Right, now it's just a straight advancement, but once I figure out what options would make sense for the magic classes, they'll be added.


*alchemy*

I already have an idea on what alchemy does. Basically, its avantage over other uses of magic is that it's easy to create "magic" items using it - other types of magic have limited ways of permanently enchancing objects. Amulets, rings magic weapons - all of this is rarer than in D&D and created primarily by alchemists.


*other magic systems*

Hm. I suppose I might do something like this, yes. The problem is, summoning doesn't have as many practical applications - alchemy will produce some item, nercomancy will get you an undead servant, but summoning something tangible onto the material plane is hard and usually involves making deals with powerful entities from other planes.

[Kushōsaku]

I don't read manga
Me neither, but I think you can also watch it online, there is an anime version. :smallcool:
Edit: found it!! :smallbiggrin: http://www.animefreak.tv/watch/full-metal-alchemist-english-dubbed-online-free


All classes give acess to advanced options up to Tier Four, the highest one.
Oh, okay, it didn't appear that everything's already that elaborated. Guess you don't really need any more "basic input" then :smallbiggrin:


The problem is, summoning doesn't have as many practical applications - alchemy will produce some item, nercomancy will get you an undead servant, but summoning something tangible onto the material plane is hard and usually involves making deals with powerful entities from other planes.
Hmm, well, there could be more practical applications. I guess it all depends on what you want summoning to be. A covenant with a powerful entity surely isn't something you need to do everyday, probably only once, and afterwards it might serve as source or boost for arcane/divine magic. This would be the exclusive type of covenant.
If you can have several covenants at the same time, each might provide one or more supernatural abilities. These might be similar to what you have in mind for your Paladin/War Mage. Maybe you can even summon (aspects of) the entity, which would feel a bit like the Summonings in Final Fantasy, I guess, having several powerful beings bound to you that can be called upon for indirect or direct support.
And if summoning can also involve lesser beings, with which you don't have to get involved on a covenant-basis, applications of smaller scale and instant use might be available, as already exemplified before.
Maybe you could even find a way to combine these possibilities in your system and then leave it to the GM & players what they do with it in the end. :smallsmile:

[Morty]

Me neither, but I think you can also watch it online, there is an anime version. :smallcool:
Edit: found it!! :smallbiggrin: http://www.animefreak.tv/watch/full-metal-alchemist-english-dubbed-online-free

I'm afraid I'm just as allergic to anime as I'm to manga. :smalltongue: Thanks for suggestion though.


Oh, okay, it didn't appear that everything's already that elaborated. Guess you don't really need any more "basic input" then :smallbiggrin:

I should have been more precise: they're supposed to go up to Tier 4. They 3rd and 4th tier are not statted out yet.


Hmm, well, there could be more practical applications. I guess it all depends on what you want summoning to be. A covenant with a powerful entity surely isn't something you need to do everyday, probably only once, and afterwards it might serve as source or boost for arcane/divine magic. This would be the exclusive type of covenant.
If you can have several covenants at the same time, each might provide one or more supernatural abilities. These might be similar to what you have in mind for your Paladin/War Mage. Maybe you can even summon (aspects of) the entity, which would feel a bit like the Summonings in Final Fantasy, I guess, having several powerful beings bound to you that can be called upon for indirect or direct support.
And if summoning can also involve lesser beings, with which you don't have to get involved on a covenant-basis, applications of smaller scale and instant use might be available, as already exemplified before.
Maybe you could even find a way to combine these possibilities in your system and then leave it to the GM & players what they do with it in the end. :smallsmile:

Yes, I'm thinking of doing something like this. Summoning would give long-term benefits if played right, although of course, getting something from extraplanar entities would have a large price.