I Played 4th Edition Tonight!

[fendrin]

Cure Light Wounds Cleric Utility 2
You utter a simple prayer and gain the power to instantly heal wounds, and your touch momentarily suffuses you or a wounded creature with a dim silver light.
Daily * Divine, Healing
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: You or one creature
Effect: The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge.

Added bold to make a point. 'As if' is determining how many HP the target gets back. CLW does not use up one of the target's Healing surges. Thus if the target is out of healing surges, CLW still works on them.

[Keld Denar]

I'm sure someone will come along to jump on me about how there is a smaller range there, which obviously makes it better automatically, and it's really better because there's no chance of getting a two, but at the table it's a lot easier to justify a d8 for a possible 3/4 of HP than it is to justify 7+d6 for maybe half. Finally, "healing surges" are nice, and you should in theory never run out of them, but if you do, there is no way for a cleric to heal you. They can't heal *you* themselves*(IE they have no spell/power that simply grants permanent HP)*, they only spend your surges for you. :smallannoyed:


From what I've seen, the cleric role has changed slightly from what previous editions had as a martially oriented caster packing divine powers into more of a spiritual caster base packing divine powers. So, clerics don't take the fighters role anymore...is this a bad thing? And clerics are a "leader" class, similar to a warlord, and serve a rather similar role. They buff and heal while making attacks from the back row, instead of the front.

So, the cleric has had a bit of a role reorientation. I don't see this as a bad thing, just different. The paladin and fighter are changing from a primarily offensive damage role to more of a defensive protector role, and people don't have too much trouble with that. From what I saw at DDXP, the cleric's damage output wasn't that far behind the fighter's, he just wasn't up front anymore.

As far as healing in combat and whatnot. You can only spend a healing surge once per encounter as a "second wind" action which consumes your standard. This is hardly "all the healing you need". As far as it consuming your healing surges/day...well, this is just a different form of resource management opposed to spells/day or any other mechanic.

Also, out of combat time is a minimum of ~5 min to catch your breath, stretch out, blot any leaks, resettle any armor that was knocked out of place by a well placed blow, and otherwise settle your combat jitters. That's what I was told at DDXP by my DMs there.

[skywalker]

This is a necessary sacrifice that leads to a general improvement in the game, IMO. Clerics (and druids and wizards and all the other full casters) of 3.5 had an overly-large range of choices and impact on the game. Reducing those choices can reduce the fun you may have with one, but it also makes them work much better with the rest of the game. I will accept that the game works better. But it does reduce the fun. I agree with you here, it's probably for the best to reduce the choices of casters. Originally, they said casters would have the same choices, and non-casters would simply be beefed up.

That said the preview character does seem to be made to fit more into a traditional healbot/caster style, with both at-will powers being ranged and his class archetype/path choice (assuming I'm right about which bit of the sheet it is) going to improving his healing effects. We don't know yet what the other first-level powers might be or what the cleric's other archetypal choice(s) will do.. it'd be more accurate to say that you found this particular version of the 4E cleric less fun. We can't honestly make a comment on the entire class yet. We can't, but this is a preview, and, ostensibly, what they want you to think the game will be about. This is exactly what I feared when they started talking about "clearly defined roles." Honestly, to me, this is Wizards saying "this is how you play 4e clerics."

One more time...

Cure Light Wounds is on the quickstart character, and it heals without anyone using a surge.

Cure Light Wounds Cleric Utility 2
You utter a simple prayer and gain the power to instantly heal wounds, and your touch momentarily suffuses you or a wounded creature with a dim silver light.
Daily * Divine, Healing
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: You or one creature
Effect: The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge. What was that, Fendrin? Bolded for effect? Hey kid, look at that, that's a 2. That means that a first level cleric can't use it. Forgive me my snark, I've tried to be civil, but you keep coming in here talking like I'm an idiot who can't read the rules. I can, and I did, and I was talking about a first level cleric.

EDIT: For Lussmanj. I am sure the cleric's output was far behind the fighter's. I am sure. The fighter and the paladin did not really change rolls much from what I saw. They were still doing lots of damage. Enough to still be considered "offensive." I honestly don't mind the "role change" for the cleric but honestly I didn't see one. I saw them get worse at healing while be forced into the "healer" role. While the amount of healing the cleric could give out seemed appropriate for a warlord, it seemed inadequate for a cleric, who they've been pitching as the healbot. There wasn't anything "leaderlike" about the cleric.

[Draz74]

What was that, Fendrin? Bolded for effect? Hey kid, look at that, that's a 2. That means that a first level cleric can't use it. Forgive me my snark, I've tried to be civil, but you keep coming in here talking like I'm an idiot who can't read the rules. I can, and I did, and I was talking about a first level cleric.

As a neutral observer, I'd like to affirm that you didn't say you were talking about a first-level cleric specifically, and it did seem like you'd forgotten about the existence of the Cure Light Wounds power.

[kc0bbq]

Added bold to make a point. 'As if' is determining how many HP the target gets back. CLW does not use up one of the target's Healing surges. Thus if the target is out of healing surges, CLW still works on them.I brought it up again when he said they didn't get healing like that because it was something that did seem to be missing before we got to see KotSF prerolls - last resort healing for when someone has no surges left.

I think the new system actually does *more* to get away from healbot situations. You get to do some nominal combat damage AND buff with the same action, you can do decent (and type radiant) damage and allow someone to use a surge in combat, damage and debuff.... You are still doing some damage and tossing around modifiers.

Plus, Healing Word heals a lot more than Surge Value + 1d6. It's Surge Value + 1d6 + Wis Modifier + 3 (IIRC the preroll has Healer's Lore). And Healing Word is a twice per encounter prayer that's a minor action.

EDIT: So even with CLW a 2nd level ability, a 1st level cleric can heal and not lose their standard or move action, and if they need to they can do a boatload of healing in one round:

Move to an opponent, make an attack at what should be their best stat modifier (Wis) with Healing Strike, doing 2d8+1 damage. Since it's got the Healing keyword any target within 5 squares can use a healing surge to be healed for Surge Value + 3. Then they can Healing Word, allowing another surge to be used, but for Surge Value + 1d6 + Wis + 3. On a single target, that's automatically half their hit points plus 1d6 + 6 + Wis, plus 2d8+1 radiant damage to an opponent. That's really cool.

[skywalker]

A first level 3.5 cleric was using enlarge person, bless, etc. to change battles.

CLW, at CL1, gives a minimum of 2HP, and a maximum of 9HP.

the fighter now has a lot more HP. Whereas in 3.5(with a 16 CON) a fighter got somewhere between 2/13 and almost 3/4 of his HP back, now the fighter gets somewhere between 1/4 and less than half of his HP back.
Maybe this one is ambiguous. I assumed everyone would realize that a fighter(d10 HD, max HP at first level) with a 16 CON has 13 HP at first level.

The other two, I'm not really sure how I could be construed as talking about anything other than a first level cleric. Maybe it's just because I'm in my own head. But do you really think so? Did you really think I was talking about a second level cleric?

EDIT: I just read the character sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80204) again, healing word only does healing surge +d6. And CLW is a daily power.

[kc0bbq]

Maybe it's just because I'm in my own head. But do you really think so? Did you really think I was talking about a second level cleric?
The thread is about the KotSF, so it would be reasonable to think that when you are referring to the preroll cleric, you are referring to the entirety of the preroll cleric.

If you weren't, that's fine, it's a misunderstanding. But a cleric can heal a lot more than you're giving them credit for, all while doing other stuff, see my edit above. In 3.5e you had to do one thing and nothing else. Now you can heal and do other cool abilities in the same round.


EDIT: I just read the character sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80204) again, healing word only does healing surge +d6. And CLW is a daily power.
Healing Word: Cleric Feature
You whisper a brief prayer as divine light washes over your target, helping to mend its wounds.
Encounter (Special) * Divine, Healing
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round. Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: You or one ally
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 + Wis hit points.

Healer’s Lore: When you grant healing with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add +3 to the number of restored hit points.

Again, I'm pretty sure the preroll had Healer's Lore, but if not, I apologize.

[skywalker]

Healing Word: Cleric Feature
You whisper a brief prayer as divine light washes over your target, helping to mend its wounds.
Encounter (Special) * Divine, Healing
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round. Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: You or one ally
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge and regain an additional 1d6 + Wis hit points.

Healer’s Lore: When you grant healing with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword, add +3 to the number of restored hit points.

Again, I'm pretty sure the preroll had Healer's Lore, but if not, I apologize. There is no +Wis for that power on this sheet. (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut2.jpg) Maybe you're looking at a different one? My other question is, all the other characters had all their bonuses added into their power descriptions. In other words, you only had to read the power description and use only those numbers. Which I really liked, because it made it a lot easier to do the math(since all the modifiers are already added for you) and harder cheat(since all the modifiers are already added for you, so you can't say "Oh, well, I added wrong." I know I did this in 3.5) Now why didn't Wizards just put that +3 in all the healing power descriptions too?

[Little_Rudo]

It's in the bottom right, under Class Features (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut1.jpg)

[fendrin]

I brought it up again when he said they didn't get healing like that because it was something that did seem to be missing before we got to see KotSF prerolls - last resort healing for when someone has no surges left.
I know, I was trying to emphasize that very point for Skywalker...


What was that, Fendrin? Bolded for effect? Hey kid, look at that, that's a 2. That means that a first level cleric can't use it. Forgive me my snark, I've tried to be civil, but you keep coming in here talking like I'm an idiot who can't read the rules. I can, and I did, and I was talking about a first level cleric.

'Added bold to make a point', actually. A bit more civil than you thought.
Hey yep, I overlooked that it was 2nd level. I was (foolishly) thinking in 3.x terms.

As for the snark, I believe this is the first I have commented on your comprehension of the rules. I have made comments regarding your DMs comprehension, but that's not you. Also, throwing in a mea culpa really doesn't help any. It just tells everyone else that you know what you are doing is bad, but you are doing it anyway.

Back to the point at hand... it seems in general that the preview cleric has been put together sloppily, even compared to the other preview characters. There is (apparently) a missing power, they didn't apply the Healer's lore bonus, they opted for a melee stat array but have mostly ranged attacks, and so forth. It's hard to say whether or not this cleric is truly representative of all clerics in 4e, but considering WotCs track record, I doubt this cleric is particularly optimized.

[kieza]

Okay, here's my take on a few of the issues in this thread. There's a little math involved for part of it, but I've put it in spoilers:

Damage even on a miss/Definition of HP
HP represent overall ability to fight: cuts and bruises, wearing down after dodging a lot of attacks, battle-weariness, etc. An attack that hits someone at full HP is a blow that pierces their armor and makes a small cut on their arm or leg. A blow that hits a bloodied character is something moderately bad, like a shallow gash across the torso or a broken rib, and an attack that fells someone is a hit to the head or a deep wound in the chest. Attacks that deal damage on a miss are just harder to avoid completely; depending on the circumstance, it may be an attack that is very hard to dodge or almost certain to at least nick the target (thus, delivering poison, etc.) or, in the case of something that drops the target, the blow that batters their guard down and then pierces their heart.

Existence of "Best" powers
Yes, some powers seem best at first glance. These are the powers like Cleave or Magic Missile that can be effective in most situations. Others are more situational, but can offer better results than if used tactically (good timing, good teamwork) than the general-use powers. Tide of Iron, for example, does less damage than Cleave IIRC, but if a Fighter uses it to push an opponent to a space where it's flanked, the rogue can then get his sneak attack damage. Ray of Frost deals ~16% less damage on average than Magic Missile, but its slowing ability would let some other character catch up to it if it's running away. Plus, if being slowed grants advantage, that's another way to benefit the rogue. Reaping Strike, for example, is more effective than Cleave against high-AC enemies, and less effective against minions.

Reaping Strike actually does about the same damage as Cleave. If we assume that the Fighter has a 50% chance to hit something, Cleave does [W]+2*STR half the time, and none the rest of the time. Reaping Strike does [W]+STR half the time, and STR half the time. It averages out, and the only difference in the long run is that Cleave's damage is split between multiple targets. If, however, the target has high AC, to the point that the fighter hits 25% of the time, then Cleave deals [W]/4+STR/2 damage, and Reaping Strike deals [W]/4+STR. Not much improvement, but a little.

Minions take no damage on a miss
Minions do theoretically have HP, just not very many-probably about 1/4 those of a standard encounter. Since they have so few, they are likely to be killed from any solid hit from a PC, but not by a glancing blow like the miss damage from Reaping Strike. It's an abstraction. (I may wind up treating minions like they have ~1/4 standard HP, and actually totalling up that miss damage if it becomes an issue. Or I may rule that they die if hit by 2-3 doses of miss damage)

Sleep
I love the new sleep spell, and I think it's just what a Daily should be: guaranteed to have some effect, capable of being devastating, and yet not being automatic victory. The target is slowed automatically for one round, averages two rounds and possibly becomes helpless, allowing for at least a couple of auto-crits.

Sleep's slowing effect, or for that matter any effect that allows a saving throw, averages two rounds of slowing by this logic: the target will automatically be slowed the first round. There is a 50% chance that the effect lasts until the next round, a 25% chance it lasts till the round after that, and so on. The sum of the terms of this infinite sequence is 2. Of course, if the target has a bonus to the save, it averages less.

[CommodoreFluffy]

well, I think that the games fun was decreased when they made all the classes heal, that made the clerics have no propose, they are Obsolete. They now have no party justification, they are like a worse bard who can't sing.

[Reel On, Love]

well, I think that the games fun was decreased when they made all the classes heal, that made the clerics have no propose, they are Obsolete. They now have no party justification, they are like a worse bard who can't sing.

Like I said, I spoke to someone who played a cleric, and they didn't feel that way at all. Other classes can heal once per encounter. The cleric's healing was important, and his buffs were very useful.

There's also all the other options for cleric powers of those levels that we haven't seen.

[CommodoreFluffy]

The thing is there, that in a nonmagical party, it would be fun to decide either to use our heal checks, and many weeks, to let one recover, or search for a cleric in a city, or find some scroll or other, it opened up many windows for roleplaying, now it seems more balanced, but, not as sincere a background.

[skywalker]

As for the snark, I believe this is the first I have commented on your comprehension of the rules. I have made comments regarding your DMs comprehension, but that's not you. Also, throwing in a mea culpa really doesn't help any. It just tells everyone else that you know what you are doing is bad, but you are doing it anyway. Wasn't talking to you, was talking to the person with the un-spell-able name who had nothing to say but "cure light wounds is on the character sheet." I realize I didn't make that clear. I also heartily disagree with you, saying sorry makes all the difference. Which is why I'll say sorry to you right now, I realize you took that to mean you, and I meant it for the other guy(or girl).


Back to the point at hand... it seems in general that the preview cleric has been put together sloppily, even compared to the other preview characters. There is (apparently) a missing power, they didn't apply the Healer's lore bonus, they opted for a melee stat array but have mostly ranged attacks, and so forth. It's hard to say whether or not this cleric is truly representative of all clerics in 4e, but considering WotCs track record, I doubt this cleric is particularly optimized. I will agree with you here. Probably not particularly optimized. Still worries me since you'd think they'd do their best to sell the preview :smallconfused:

[fendrin]

Wasn't talking to you, was talking to the person with the un-spell-able name who had nothing to say but "cure light wounds is on the character sheet." I realize I didn't make that clear. I also heartily disagree with you, saying sorry makes all the difference. Which is why I'll say sorry to you right now, I realize you took that to mean you, and I meant it for the other guy(or girl). Saying sorry makes a difference only when you mean it. Saying at the same time you are saying what you are apologizing for is a strong indication that you in fact don't mean it. That being said, accept your apology to me, as I believe you do mean it.


I will agree with you here. Probably not particularly optimized. Still worries me since you'd think they'd do their best to sell the preview :smallconfused:
If my memory serves me correctly, Regdar (or maybe Tordek?), Lidda, Mialee and Jozan were the preview characters for 3e. Were they ever optimized? Sometimes I think WotC intentionally avoids optimizing their characters.

[Sir_Dr_D]

The thing is there, that in a nonmagical party, it would be fun to decide either to use our heal checks, and many weeks, to let one recover, or search for a cleric in a city, or find some scroll or other, it opened up many windows for roleplaying, now it seems more balanced, but, not as sincere a background.

The thing is hps are a very unrealistic concept to begin with. If you were to see a dungeon crawl in a movie or read it in book, the characters would likely not get injured at all. When they do it is quite climatic. In D&D, the characters get hit dozens of times, and survive by an almost continuous supply of healing potions. It is not very realistic and does not seem that heroic.

Healing surges do makes things seem more like the movie equivalent. It seems less like the characters get injured, and more that they just get bruised up. I see hps more as defence points now. If a characters defence points get down to 0 in a fight, they lose the fight. If the party survives, after the fight they can get back on their feet, and regain their composure. (i.e. get any defence points they lost back.) But there is only so much punishment a body can take in a day, so eventually they need to take a long rest. To me this is much more realistic then previous version of D&D, more heroic, and more fun.

I agree with you that needing to get healing from somewhere can make interesting role playing experiences at times. But this should happen as rarely as in a movie, not after every few sword swings.

[Vortling]

This has all been informative. Though I guess I'll have to find a game to play in to see for myself what the cleric is all about. After the game comes out. The preview ones don't seem to be well constructed.

[CommodoreFluffy]

The thing is hps are a very unrealistic concept to begin with. If you were to see a dungeon crawl in a movie or read it in book, the characters would likely not get injured at all. When they do it is quite climatic. In D&D, the characters get hit dozens of times, and survive by an almost continuous supply of healing potions. It is not very realistic and does not seem that heroic.

Healing surges do makes things seem more like the movie equivalent. It seems less like the characters get injured, and more that they just get bruised up. I see hps more as defence points now. If a characters defence points get down to 0 in a fight, they lose the fight. If the party survives, after the fight they can get back on their feet, and regain their composure. (i.e. get any defence points they lost back.) But there is only so much punishment a body can take in a day, so eventually they need to take a long rest. To me this is much more realistic then previous version of D&D, more heroic, and more fun.

I agree with you that needing to get healing from somewhere can make interesting role playing experiences at times. But this should happen as rarely as in a movie, not after every few sword swings.

This is all true, but I still think that there should be a different rule for "WOUNDS" and Bruises... the cutting up, instead of bruises works well on monsters, it makes them seem formidable, but in a movie, or book, or history, it is always cool to see someone get hit by a crossbow bolt, have their eye shot by an arrow, or have a huge gash in their side, and decide to carry on with the fight, and shoot the arrow right back, seems more climactic.

[Jack_Simth]

The thing is hps are a very unrealistic concept to begin with. If you were to see a dungeon crawl in a movie or read it in book, the characters would likely not get injured at all. When they do it is quite climatic. In D&D, the characters get hit dozens of times, and survive by an almost continuous supply of healing potions. It is not very realistic and does not seem that heroic.

Have you ever watched the Die Hard line? He gets injured. A lot. It's just that most of them aren't major injuries, and he's got this nifty ability to ignore injuries while the pressure is on.

[CommodoreFluffy]

also, being hit can be a very plot critical part of the game.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I will agree with you guys.

For the most part I think that healing surges is a great system.

But adding in some rules for wounds, that can not just get healing surged away could add drama. I am thinking along the lines of if your character gets bloodied on a critical hit, then your character gets wounded. You can role the dice against some table to determine what the effect should be. Wounds would be harder to heal then normal hp loss, but a cleric would not be strictly required in order to do so.

[fendrin]

This is all true, but I still think that there should be a different rule for "WOUNDS" and Bruises... the cutting up, instead of bruises works well on monsters, it makes them seem formidable, but in a movie, or book, or history, it is always cool to see someone get hit by a crossbow bolt, have their eye shot by an arrow, or have a huge gash in their side, and decide to carry on with the fight, and shoot the arrow right back, seems more climactic.

There is such a rule in 4e: bloodied. Those major wounds are the ones that bring you to/beyond bloodied status.

[Charity]

Looking at 4e -
This thread delivers! (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226375&page=1&pp=15)

[Starbuck_II]

Saying sorry makes a difference only when you mean it. Saying at the same time you are saying what you are apologizing for is a strong indication that you in fact don't mean it. That being said, accept your apology to me, as I believe you do mean it.


If my memory serves me correctly, Regdar (or maybe Tordek?), Lidda, Mialee and Jozan were the preview characters for 3e. Were they ever optimized? Sometimes I think WotC intentionally avoids optimizing their characters.

Mialee had 1/2 Cricket Templae: a very optimized choice.
Tordek sucked. He had like 3 weapon focuses. Bow, axe, and dagger I think. He rarely used the dagger or bow.
Lidda was decently done.
Regdar: I don't remember.
Jozan worshipped evil avatar of Pelor. Very optimized.

[Dragoon]

I have a quick question for those who have played the preview, how important is it to have five players? Could a group handle it with 3 plus a possible DMPC?

[fendrin]

I just picked up a copy of KoS yesterday. As expected, Skywalker's DM got several things wrong, such as burst radius. Also, while it specifically instructs the DM to let the players read the quickstart rules, many specifics (such as the aforementioned burst radius) are only in the DM-only copy (in the adventure booklet).

Also, I am a bit disappointed with the production quality. Instead of a hardcover book (as I was led to expect by the description on Amazon and WotC's site), it is exactly the same as the in-store preview copy.
There is a flimsy cardboard 'folder' that contains very nice looking but flimsy paper booklets and standard quality poster-maps. The booklets do not have any sort of 'tough' cover. The front cover is paper like the rest of it, and the back cover is non-existent. Yeah, so if you are running the game and hold the module open in your hands, the players can read the last page of the adventure. Brilliant. Seriously, these booklets are flimsier than most standard magazines.

The included character sheets are part of the quick-start booklet, as in stapled together with it. Another brilliant move. They should have been separate, like the poster maps, so you would have to rip them out or unstape the entire booklet, or photocopy them (and thereby lose the nice colorization).


I have a quick question for those who have played the preview, how important is it to have five players? Could a group handle it with 3 plus a possible DMPC?

The encounters are definitely balanced for 5 PCs. You could probably trim them back, though. If you check out the preview articles, I'm pretty sure one of them talked about adjusting encounters.
The first encounter, if I am remembering correctly, has 6 level 1 minions, 1 level 1 standard monster, and 2 level 2 standard monsters.

my estimation is:
4 level 1 minions = 1 level 1 PC
1 level 1 standard monster = 1 level 1 PC
1 level 2 standard monster = 1.5 level 1 PCs

Making the encounter as written = 5.5 PCs.

So for 3 PCs, I would suggest eliminating 2 minions and one of the level 2 standards. (making the encounter = 3.5 PCs)

If you include a DMPC (which I always advocate against for a variety of reasons, and 4e seems to make having 'one of each type' much less important) I would say maybe eliminate one of the level 2 standards OR 2 of the minions, making the encounter = 4 or 5 PCs, respectively.

Keep in mind which characters the players choose. The most effective trio would probably be Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. Maybe paladin in place of fighter.

If you really want a DMPC, I would play the cleric, as the cleric (being a 'leader' role) will assist the other characters more than upstage them.

Of course, I've only read the first part of the module, and haven't played 4e at all yet, so I'm really not certain of any of this advice.

[Jerthanis]

I had the chance to play this a little bit last night and was surprised to find our players using Action points primarily on move actions, rather than on getting extra standards. Maybe it was just because we were fighting Kobolds, who are pretty spry.

Another thing that wasn't terribly surprising is that it's still level 1 D&D... and the roll is still so much more important than which abilities you're using. My character hit 2/3rds of the time because I rolled well, the paladin was 0 for 3 despite having a better to-hit and at one point being the target of the Cleric's buff.

The fact that the character sheets were not removable was the worst part about it, bar nothing. Because we couldn't split it up, we had to wait more than an hour for everyone to copy down their character, since everyone had to wait their turn, and at least one person insisted on writing down almost every word on the example sheet, including every skill, trained or not. Because of this, we got started about an hour and a half after getting together for it. Could have been way faster, but none of us really realized that complication until it was upon us.

Spoiled for in case you don't want to read my impressions of the content of the module so far, which shouldn't contain any more actual spoilers than reading the back of the module would, but just in case someone really wants to go into this module without ANY foreknowledge:


Then... the module is kind of... Moduleish. I dunno... you fight Kobolds, who hate you because you're there, and then there's a cave full of Kobolds that you have to clear out for a reward. There's something more going on, and we're getting hints as to some greater conspiracy, but based on the first session I have to marvel at the sheer guilelessness of it all. I felt like asking the DM if, after clearing the cave full of Kobolds, if we'd head to the Keep and find we need to go into its Dungeon section and kill a Dragon there. Oh well, at least there are NPCs to interact with, even if the plot seems a little... uninspired.

[fendrin]

I had the chance to play this a little bit last night and was surprised to find our players using Action points primarily on move actions, rather than on getting extra standards. Maybe it was just because we were fighting Kobolds, who are pretty spry.

Another thing that wasn't terribly surprising is that it's still level 1 D&D... and the roll is still so much more important than which abilities you're using. My character hit 2/3rds of the time because I rolled well, the paladin was 0 for 3 despite having a better to-hit and at one point being the target of the Cleric's buff.

The fact that the character sheets were not removable was the worst part about it, bar nothing. Because we couldn't split it up, we had to wait more than an hour for everyone to copy down their character, since everyone had to wait their turn, and at least one person insisted on writing down almost every word on the example sheet, including every skill, trained or not. Because of this, we got started about an hour and a half after getting together for it. Could have been way faster, but none of us really realized that complication until it was upon us.

Spoiled for in case you don't want to read my impressions of the content of the module so far, which shouldn't contain any more actual spoilers than reading the back of the module would, but just in case someone really wants to go into this module without ANY foreknowledge:


Then... the module is kind of... Moduleish. I dunno... you fight Kobolds, who hate you because you're there, and then there's a cave full of Kobolds that you have to clear out for a reward. There's something more going on, and we're getting hints as to some greater conspiracy, but based on the first session I have to marvel at the sheer guilelessness of it all. I felt like asking the DM if, after clearing the cave full of Kobolds, if we'd head to the Keep and find we need to go into its Dungeon section and kill a Dragon there. Oh well, at least there are NPCs to interact with, even if the plot seems a little... uninspired.


Yeah, I'm definitely going to photocopy the sheets, or print the scans that Charity posted.

Having actually read the DM bits (again, just the first section), all I'm going to say is that like in any decent module, the PCs don't know everything that's going on right from the get-go. If you ever go into it having all the pieces of the puzzle figured out, that's when you know you're playing nothing but a tactical combat game.

[SamTheCleric]

I pick up my copy of KoS today... and my first session is on Friday. (I'm playing the rogue. I haven't come up with a name for him... though I'm thinking that he shall be Estaban, Thief of Love (and money) )

[Jerthanis]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to photocopy the sheets, or print the scans that Charity posted.

Having actually read the DM bits (again, just the first section), all I'm going to say is that like in any decent module, the PCs don't know everything that's going on right from the get-go. If you ever go into it having all the pieces of the puzzle figured out, that's when you know you're playing nothing but a tactical combat game.

This is heartening to hear, but I've played only three or four published modules in my time, and to my recollection, they were basically. 1.) PCs are hired to find something or kill everything in a forgotten and exotic location. 2.) Must make deals and interact with various NPCs to find information on the location and the denizens therein, sometimes including where it is and 3.) Proceeding to go to the location and wipe out everything there, and the biggest plot twist I've yet encountered was "Guess what, it's a bigger demon than you thought was going to be here... kill it anyway." This includes modules I like too actually. I really like the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft module, but the first half is 80% information gathering on Strahd and the castle, and the second half is one long dungeon crawl.

So when this module followed the first two so precisely, I was pretty worried. Still, I'm ridiculously jazzed to play it.

[fendrin]

This is heartening to hear, but I've played only three or four published modules in my time, and to my recollection, they were basically. 1.) PCs are hired to find something or kill everything in a forgotten and exotic location. 2.) Must make deals and interact with various NPCs to find information on the location and the denizens therein, sometimes including where it is and 3.) Proceeding to go to the location and wipe out everything there, and the biggest plot twist I've yet encountered was "Guess what, it's a bigger demon than you thought was going to be here... kill it anyway." This includes modules I like too actually. I really like the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft module, but the first half is 80% information gathering on Strahd and the castle, and the second half is one long dungeon crawl.

So when this module followed the first two so precisely, I was pretty worried. Still, I'm ridiculously jazzed to play it.

Honestly, I haven't played all that many modules either, but I have played enough to know the formula you are talking about. Honestly, this is no Red Hand of Doom or Savage Tide, but there is at least some semblance of a plot that ties everything together. It seems better than The Sunless Citadel, at least.

[kc0bbq]

So when this module followed the first two so precisely, I was pretty worried. Still, I'm ridiculously jazzed to play it.Modules have a limited number of plausible openings, and while this one provides several suggested hooks, it's kind of locked in as to how to start. You're in plot (and fluff) exposition land.

Spoilered for the same reasons, no additional spoilage, though:
If you're fitting this module in with a larger campaign, you have greater resources to establish the kobold presence. Just keep in mind the remoteness of Winterhaven.

You may be justified in character feeling that these kobolds are out of place. It really doesn't make any sense that they're attacking you 80 million miles from nowhere on a road that barely exists as a road anymore.

There are a few contrivances, but the plot does make sense when as you get more layers of exposition, at the very least. There are a few old standbys used, but the one that bugged me a bit has some good things about it. Roll with them and take them in context, as an introductory D&D module.

Keep a sense of humor about things and even an RPGA module can be fun. Try getting through an RPGA module (successfully) avoiding every combat. With a DM who just bleeds munckin throwing extra encounters at you. Seething hatred is the result. Then again, we don't really take RPGA as seriously as a lot of people.

I'm a couple sessions into running the thing, and from my perspective it's pretty solid for what it is.

[skywalker]

I have a quick question for those who have played the preview, how important is it to have five players? Could a group handle it with 3 plus a possible DMPC?

Make sure your cleric knows what a cleric is supposed to do in 4e(heal). Our party nearly died in the first encounter because the cleric wasn't healing. As well, any time the paladin or fighter went down, everyone else was in trouble. We were very glad we had all 5 characters.

[CommodoreFluffy]

I don't know about you, but I think that It would be good to wait, and see what other people say about the game, before converting, and that will have to take time too.

[skywalker]

I don't know about you, but I think that It would be good to wait, and see what other people say about the game, before converting, and that will have to take time too.

If everyone did this, no one would have any experience to report with the game, and therefore to influence whether or not you convert.

[CommodoreFluffy]

I realize this, I am only voiceing my opinion

[Gralamin]

My First session is on Saturday, where I'll be making use of the Tiefling Warlord (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/TieflingWarlord.zip).

[Dragoon]

Thanks for the heads up, if one of the three don't pick the cleric, I might join in, though it sounds like I'll have a fourth player, so that makes me happy. If only the module was actually at my FLGS on Tuesday instead of this Friday. :smallsigh:

[Charity]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to photocopy the sheets, or print the scans that Charity posted.

Having actually read the DM bits (again, just the first section), all I'm going to say is that like in any decent module, the PCs don't know everything that's going on right from the get-go. If you ever go into it having all the pieces of the puzzle figured out, that's when you know you're playing nothing but a tactical combat game.

http://www.mediafire.com/?mj14lurm1tl

I haven't tried it out but I'm guessing they are cleaner.

[fendrin]

http://www.mediafire.com/?mj14lurm1tl

I haven't tried it out but I'm guessing they are cleaner.

They are much better, thank you. Are the additional characters from D&DXP? It's interesting to see how the Tiefling Warlord changed over time. Kind of makes me a little leery of using the two un-updated characters sheets, but at the same time I would really like to see a warlock and a ranger in action.

[cybosage]

That's why you simply declare your independence before attacked, unless it's from a reaping strike miss. Then you can simply declare your allegiance after it misses you, but before the wind cuts you (or whatever is supposed to happen). Swear fealty mid-dodge if you have to.

I'm really just showing how silly the minion subtype is. It makes no sense.

I enjoy playing DnD because in most cases, it accurately models real life. 4th edition looks so far like its going to play like a game instead of model various circumstances. Yeah, I've probably been playing the wrong system all along for this kind of thing and I probably should switch, because 4th edition is going in the opposite direction I was hoping (too much wargaming mechanical crap, little to no realism).

Ok, I'm fine with you having your own opinion about 4th ed. Everyone is entitled to one, but seriously, "accurately models real life?"

I thought the whole point of DnD was to not model real life? Hence the elves, orcs, spells, and paladins that don't always turn evil?

Your arbitrary pledging and unpledging to a party member, admittedly, makes no sense. However, I think it makes perfect sense for a big bad guy to have some fodder minions to throw at the PCs. There is NO WAY WotC is going to please everyone, but I for one am thrilled that I can have a pack of goblins that can actually damage my PCs, but will still die in a quick manner if they PCs use the skills they have access to.

[Totemensch]

Originally Posted by Charity
http://www.mediafire.com/?mj14lurm1tl

I haven't tried it out but I'm guessing they are cleaner.

I'm having trouble downloading this file. Any chance one of you fine upstanding folks would be willing to email it to me if you have a copy.

Joe

[CommodoreFluffy]

it is not a model of reality, but a model of imagination which gives some hint of failure, and therefore, some hint at success

[fendrin]

I'm having trouble downloading this file. Any chance one of you fine upstanding folks would be willing to email it to me if you have a copy.

Joe

I had a lot of trouble with it at first, too, but then I right-clicked on the 'download' button and selected 'Save link as...'. That worked A LOT better than just clicking the button and having it load in the browser.

I'm using firefox, so the options may be named a little bit different if you are using a different browser.

[Charity]

They are much better, thank you. Are the additional characters from D&DXP? It's interesting to see how the Tiefling Warlord changed over time. Kind of makes me a little leery of using the two un-updated characters sheets, but at the same time I would really like to see a warlock and a ranger in action.

I'm pretty sure thats the case, I imagine the un-updated characters could be retro fitted once the PHB comes out, I doubt there's anything too game balance devistating

[Oslecamo]

There is NO WAY WotC is going to please everyone, but I for one am thrilled that I can have a pack of goblins that can actually damage my PCs, but will still die in a quick manner if they PCs use the skills they have access to.

Eeerr, commoner goblins have an average of 2.5 Hp. Make them fight naked (12 AC), give them the nonelite array(13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), dumping str and con and make them fight with daggers.

End result:

3.5 goblin minion( comoner)
Small humanoid
HP: 1d4-1(average 1)
Ac :12
Attack: dagger +0
Damage: 1d3-1
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 9, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11
Fort: -1, Ref +1, Will +0
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Spot +2
Feats: Alertness
CR:1/6

Goblins not hiting enough? Give them weapon finesse. Going down too quickly? Give them some armor or toughness feat. More damage? Give them better weapons and str.

A 3.5 goblin is much more than what apears in the monster manual. You can easily customize it to whatever you need.

[fendrin]

Eeerr, commoner goblins have an average of 2.5 Hp. Make them fight naked (12 AC), give them the nonelite array(13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), dumping str and con and make them fight with daggers.

End result:

3.5 goblin minion( comoner)
Small humanoid
HP: 1d4-1(average 1)
Ac :12
Attack: dagger +0
Damage: 1d3-1
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 9, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11
Fort: -1, Ref +1, Will +0
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Spot +2
Feats: Alertness
CR:1/6

Goblins not hiting enough? Give them weapon finesse. Going down too quickly? Give them some armor or toughness feat. More damage? Give them better weapons and str.

A 3.5 goblin is much more than what apears in the monster manual. You can easily customize it to whatever you need.

sure, you can do that at level 1, but what about level 11?
In 4e I can throw my PCs up against an evil cult and their horde of demons (because I'm sick of PCs showing up just in type to prevent the demons from being summoned), and throw a couple (non-minion) cultists and a dozen or so of these guys at them:


Legion Devil Hellguard - Level 11 Minion
Medium Immortal humanoid (devil) - XP 150
Intiative +6 Senses Perceotion +6; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion
AC 27; Fortitude 23, Reflex 22, Will 22; See also Squad Defense
Resist 10 fire
Speed 6, teleport 3
Longsword (standard; at-will) - Weapon
+16 vs AC; 6 damage
Squad Defense
The legion devil hellguard gains a +2 bonus to its defenses when adjacent to at least one other legion devil
Alignment Evil Languages Supernal
Str 14 (+7) Dex 12 (+6) Wis 12 (+6)
Con 14 (+7) Int 10 (+5) Cha 12 (+6)
Equipment Plate Armor, Heavy Shield, Longsword

I'd also have a couple more show up every few rounds until the PCs figure out how to close the portal. Makes for an interesting combat, I think.

[Totemensch]

Fendrin

Thanks I was able to get it using my work pc and an older version of IE. For some reason I was having real troubles with it from my home pc with IE and Firefox. Thanks for the info though.

Joe

[Justin_Bacon]

I just picked up a copy of KoS yesterday. As expected, Skywalker's DM got several things wrong, such as burst radius. Also, while it specifically instructs the DM to let the players read the quickstart rules, many specifics (such as the aforementioned burst radius) are only in the DM-only copy (in the adventure booklet).

A decision which makes absolutely no sense to me. I can understand the utility of having a separate set of quick-start rules (so that the DM can easily reference them without taking away the player's copy), but the only rules that shouldn't have appeared in the player's copy are the rules for reading the monster stat blocks.


Also, I am a bit disappointed with the production quality. Instead of a hardcover book (as I was led to expect by the description on Amazon and WotC's site), it is exactly the same as the in-store preview copy.
There is a flimsy cardboard 'folder' that contains very nice looking but flimsy paper booklets and standard quality poster-maps.

The booklets aren't going to last through a single gaming session. As you say, they're flimsier than an issue of Dungeon and I can virtually guarantee that the outer page (I won't deign to call it a cover) on the DM's packet is going to tear lose from the weak staples in no time at all.

If I do end up playing 4th Edition, I can only hope that future adventures aren't packaged the same way.


The included character sheets are part of the quick-start booklet, as in stapled together with it. Another brilliant move. They should have been separate, like the poster maps, so you would have to rip them out or unstape the entire booklet, or photocopy them (and thereby lose the nice colorization).

Amen.