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Nota Biene
2008-05-12, 12:12 AM
As a wizard fan, I was interested to see the archmage writeup over in the WoTC "features" section of D&D.

What does everyone think? I like the concept... I don't know about the execution. The only thing he gets is literally "more of the same." The ability to cast spells more spells that would otherwise be limited per days. I don't know how powerful that is, not being able to see the spells in question, but it might have been nice to throw in some ability that was totally new. I always liked the cool factor (not necessarily the mechanics) of "high arcana."

Thoughts?

TheOOB
2008-05-12, 12:25 AM
Well...the wizard is going to be getting awesome spells past level 30...but anyways, the thing to keep in mind is that the archmage serves a purpose, and it serves it well. The archmage is for a character who wants to option pure arcane mastery, and gains the ability to call upon their magic more often then lesser characters. There will be epic destinies that give you new awesome powers...this one isn't for that.

Larrin
2008-05-12, 05:39 AM
Yeah, i think that the archmage text by itself, without that background of how cool an epic wizard might be, is unimpressive. His "my arcane spirit rises to cast spells at you" ability is the only goody of "Coolness". the rest is useful and does reflect someone that is better at using magic than others, but he isn't better at using "something-other-wizards-don't-even-have-in-the-first-place" which is kind of what i want more of in my archmages. I think that the archmage suffers a little because it seems destinies are meant more as "subtle" flavorings in an already epic character, and the title archmage feels to me like it deserves more than just subtle influence over a character.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-12, 05:43 AM
Yeah, i think that the archmage text by itself, without that background of how cool an epic wizard might be, is unimpressive. His "my arcane spirit rises to cast spells at you" ability is the only goody of "Coolness". the rest is useful and does reflect someone that is better at using magic than others, but he isn't better at using "something-other-wizards-don't-even-have-in-the-first-place" which is kind of what i want more of in my archmages. I think that the archmage suffers a little because it seems destinies are meant more as "subtle" flavorings in an already epic character, and the title archmage feels to me like it deserves more than just subtle influence over a character.

I agree. It seems like naming yourself Archmage should give you at least one chance to do something that makes all the wizards go "O_o

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 05:50 AM
Two things...

First, it seems like every sufficiently-high-level wizard automatically qualifies as an archmage, if he wants to. That doesn't seem right.

Second, the powers are kind of lame. You get three versions of "do something you already do more often per day" and the arcane spirit, while thematically interesting, mechanically boils down to "you have twice as many hit points".

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 05:53 AM
Two things...

First, it seems like every sufficiently-high-level wizard automatically qualifies as an archmage, if he wants to. That doesn't seem right.

Second, the powers are kind of lame. You get three versions of "do something you already do more often per day" and the arcane spirit, while thematically interesting, mechanically boils down to "you have twice as many hit points".

Eh...

Let's say you're Bob the Wizard, and your adventuring party is fighting an Archmage. You recognize the spells he's flinging around--powerful stuff. "Okay, boys," you tell them after three or four of those, "he's almost out of the big guns, go on in."
And then he pulls out another. And another. And another...

And when you finally do finish him off... his spirit rises from the body and comes after you, howling for revenge.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-12, 05:59 AM
Eh...

Let's say you're Bob the Wizard, and your adventuring party is fighting an Archmage. You recognize the spells he's flinging around--powerful stuff. "Okay, boys," you tell them after three or four of those, "he's almost out of the big guns, go on in."
And then he pulls out another. And another. And another...

And when you finally do finish him off... his spirit rises from the body and comes after you, howling for revenge.

Trouble is, is doubled hit points actually that MUCH, on a caster?

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 06:04 AM
And then he pulls out another. And another. And another...

And when you finally do finish him off... his spirit rises from the body and comes after you, howling for revenge.

Unfortunately, that surprise is going to be rather spoiled for everybody who's read the player's handbook.

Having something flashy happen when you die is way more interesting for a BBEG's one climatic fight, than for a player character who gets to do it multiple times per day if he wants to.

Larrin
2008-05-12, 08:18 AM
Eh...

Let's say you're Bob the Wizard, and your adventuring party is fighting an Archmage. You recognize the spells he's flinging around--powerful stuff. "Okay, boys," you tell them after three or four of those, "he's almost out of the big guns, go on in."
And then he pulls out another. And another. And another...
yeah, thats nice. But its not really "Arch-y" I mean an archmage should be the best mage around, and all he can do spellwise is just cast more often? He can't, maybe, "tap the magic streams and fry you with raw arcana" or "have access to all at will wizard powers" or something? its a little disapointing (meaning i'll need to get used to it, not that i'll rail against it with my dying breath.




And when you finally do finish him off... his spirit rises from the body and comes after you, howling for revenge.

Yeah, where does this even come from, how is this "Archwizardy"? He's not a jedi knight, or a lich, or "i will haunt you" sort of character (not by default anyway). I would think his "on death" power should be more like contigent spells and death curses and raising a Simulacrum to inhabit. Simulacrum are wizardy, ghosts less so.

Duke of URL
2008-05-12, 09:04 AM
Well...the wizard is going to be getting awesome spells past level 30...

Actually, the Wizard gets nothing past level 30. No one does. The game is capped at 30 levels, and the "epic destiny" concept is a way to enforce that, by giving an in-game reason for the character to essentially "move on" beyond normal mortal issues.

Jimp
2008-05-12, 01:21 PM
Related question: what do people think of the 3rd edition Archmage? Both fluff wise and crunch wise.

Draz74
2008-05-12, 01:45 PM
Related question: what do people think of the 3rd edition Archmage? Both fluff wise and crunch wise.

In any edition, I think everyone wants to have an "archmage" option available, but no one seems to be quite sure what an "archmage" should be able to do that a "high level mage" shouldn't.

The 3e archmage's superior shaping, elemental, CL, etc. abilities are one viable interpretation. But if you had asked D&D players what an archmage PrC should be able to do, after they had learned what a PrC was but had not yet read the Archmage class, I doubt many of them would have described the 3e Archmage PrC.

I'd like an archmage that feels like an Archmage. The 3e and 4e versions are both decent attempts, but neither is spot-on.

Jimp
2008-05-12, 02:20 PM
What would you say fits the feel of an archmage?

SydneyLosstarot
2008-05-12, 02:26 PM
Well, considering my feel of archmages flavourwise, i'd make them cast spontaneously, like sorcerers, never need a spellbook and memorize spells from scrolls, effectively adding them to their list of spells known.

pity no one would let me =)

holywhippet
2008-05-12, 04:42 PM
It might be overpowering, but I'd be tempted to make the archmage treat spells as having a lower level than they do in terms of spells you can memorise and as having a higher level in terms of DC to overcome. So a level 2 spell would be memorised into level 1 slots, but have the DC of a level 3 spell.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 04:56 PM
Interesting question, what is an archmage?

Do we have any known archmages from literature or novels? I know Khelben Blackstaff is called archmage, as is Murgen of Lyonesse. And, of course, there's Sparrowhawk. I can't think of any others off-hand.

I believe Archmage to be a title, that can be held by only one person over a (large) region, as with an archbishop (does anyone recall the rules for the Great Druids and Grand Druid in second edition? Great idea, poor execution). Essentially, the Archmage is the arcane protector of his Domain, and is the supreme spellwielder or he wouldn't be worthy of the title.

Khelben is, well, one of those uber-powerful Forgotten Realms characters, with enough class levels to field an army. Murgen is an enigmatic and withdrawn character that doesn't ever seem to do anything, yet every single high mage is afraid of him, and he is quite capable of soundly defeating any of those in combat (which indeed he does at one point). Sparrowhawk is also the more philosophical kind of wizard, but he is capable of averting an earthquake by sheer force of will.

Suitable powers would be at-will Clairvoyance anywhere within his domain, some kind of future-seeing ability, and powerful means of dispelling hostile magics, as well as having his own magics being nigh-immune to being dispelled themselves.

$.2

konfeta
2008-05-12, 05:32 PM
From what I understand, the prefix arch- means "leading" or "highest" or "foremost" or "ruling", etc.

Pretty much, an Archmage is either a really badass mage or is at the forefront of some organization that is made up of mages or is the most powerful mage in an organization that uses mages.

robotrobot2
2008-05-12, 05:37 PM
I think the archmage should have some wisdom based abilities. In classic fantasy literature, archmages are always presented as the wisest and most powerful philosophers of there time. Possibly some prediction abilities too.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-12, 05:41 PM
Um, do we all realize that there are no spell slots for things to be memorized in?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 05:41 PM
From what I understand, the prefix arch- means "leading" or "highest" or "foremost" or "ruling", etc.

Pretty much, an Archmage is either a really badass mage or is at the forefront of some organization that is made up of mages or is the most powerful mage in an organization that uses mages.

That's basically my viewpoint.

An archmage should do the same sort of thing mages do, but better.

Draz74
2008-05-12, 06:05 PM
That's a workable position. But if that's the view you're going with, "Archmage" shouldn't be a PrC or other mechanical option; it should just mean "really high-level mage."

I like where Kurald Galain is going, though.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 06:20 PM
That's a workable position. But if that's the view you're going with, "Archmage" shouldn't be a PrC or other mechanical option; it should just mean "really high-level mage."

I like where Kurald Galain is going, though.

Where Kurald is going isn't really suitable for adventurers.

"Archmage" could in fact just mean high-level mage; it's also a fine name for a PrC/epic destiny/whatever. I've had plenty of 3.5 wizards without the Archmage class have the title of "archmage".

But you get the epic destiny, and it fits. If one wizard takes "Archmage" and another takes, I dunno what options there are... let's say "Highlander Immortal", then the Archmage is going to be able to do the same thing the other wizard does, spells-wise, but better (harder faster stronger). Meanwhile, the Wizard/Highlander Immortal wouldn't die unless you cut his head off.
(In 3.5, the Archmage would go "whatever, I have a spell for that, and another that defeats that.")

Xefas
2008-05-12, 06:39 PM
I can actually see where they were going with the Archmage.

The recharging powers really emphasize that he understands the way magic functions on a deeper level than a regular wizard. It isn't just that he's conjuring Big Fiery Death Rays From The Sky, but that he's making it look easy. While the other Wizards are resting for hours on end to recharge their Columns of Horrible Disembowelment, the Archmage is pulling the same level of magic out of his bum every few minutes while doing Sudoku with the other hand and solving a 6 Dimensional Astral Rubix Cube with his feet.

The other Wizards stare slack jawed at his ease of manipulation of such power, and the Archmage responds with a lengthy equation the likes of which none of them could ever hope to understand as yet another swarm of bees shoots from his hand and plucks the kidneys from a nearby Demon Prince.

Sure, they could, instead, give him Bigger Fiery Death Rays, but then he's exactly like a normal wizard, only bigger. He's just Wizard+1, whereas this way, he's an Archmage.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 06:57 PM
Where Kurald is going isn't really suitable for adventurers.
That is partially true, but all the literary archmages I referred to do get out of their ivory tower whenever the realm is threatened, akin to certain high-level adventurers I could mention. But yeah, we could simply call it an Epic Destiny. Problem solved.


I can actually see where they were going with the Archmage.

Sure, they could, instead, give him Bigger Fiery Death Rays, but then he's exactly like a normal wizard, only bigger.
Yes, that's exactly what they're doing: they're giving him the exact same powers as a normal wizard, only bigger (as in, usable twice per day instead of once! wow the ladies with your arcane prowess!)