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ShadowSiege
2008-05-12, 01:11 AM
Original Article on Epic Destinies
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080512a)

Original Article on Giants (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080512b)

For those who can't login, spoiler versions:

Epic Destinies
Excerpts: Epic Destinies
4th Edition Player's Handbook

We’ve shown you paragon paths in an earlier 4th Edition preview. This time we look all the way to your epic destiny, a concept introduced by R&D’s Bruce Cordell:

When your character reaches 21st level, you can choose your epic destiny.

What does that mean?

Your epic destiny is a few things, actually. While it’s true that your epic destiny allows you to bend, break, or ignore some of the laws of the universe, an epic destiny isn’t merely about acquiring even more power. After all, you continue to gain more and more powerful class powers as you rise toward 30th level, some of which are nearly as fantastic as those your epic destiny provides.

You see, what your epic destiny is really about is defining your place in the universe. Your epic destiny is the mythic archetype your character aspires to achieve. Once you reach 21st level, the greatness you always knew you were destined for is no longer theoretical; it is actual.

As you continue to gain levels, working toward 30th, the challenges you take on become larger and more significant, potentially affecting nations, worlds, or even the universe itself. Thus, your epic destiny shapes your lasting impact on the campaign and helps determine how people forever afterward remember and talk about you.

Did you defeat Atropus, the roving World Born Dead? Did you defeat the Hulks of Zoretha when they rose unlooked for in the ancient wastes? Did you stem the catastrophic tide of Pandorym when it revived enough to begin eating even the gods?

Yes, perhaps you did.

And once you’ve achieved so much, your epic destiny allows you a way to gracefully step aside, to make room for new generations of heroes to take up the fight. After all, your immortality is assured, whether in myth or in actuality (depending on the destiny you chose). Upon completing your epic quest, where you faced the greatest challenges of your career, your destiny describes why, after so many adventures, you finally take your leave of the mortal realm… and where you go next.
--Bruce Cordell





Your epic destiny describes the mythic archetype you aspire to achieve. Some characters have a clear epic destiny in mind from the moment they began adventuring, while others discover their epic destiny somewhere along the way.

Most people don’t ever come close to achieving an epic destiny. Whether they simply failed in their journey, or whether the universe never intended them to gain such lofty heights, is unknown and unknowable.

Your epic destiny sets you apart from such individuals—you know you’re destined for greatness and you have every opportunity to achieve it.
Extraordinary Power

Compared to a class or paragon path, an epic destiny grants few benefits, but those it bestows are exceptional. Certain laws of the universe work differently for you—and some don’t apply at all.

Your race, class, path, and other character elements might define what you can do, but your epic destiny defines your place in the universe.
Immortality

Each epic destiny defines your lasting impact on the world or even the universe: how people forever afterward remember and talk about you.

Some people achieve lasting fame or notoriety without achieving an epic destiny, but that’s a fleeting thing. Inevitably, those people are forgotten, lost in the murky depths of history. Your epic destiny ensures that your name and exploits live on forever.
The End

Perhaps most important, your epic destiny describes your character’s exit from the world at large (and more specifically, from the game) once you’ve completed your final adventure. It lays out why, after so many adventures, you finally take your leave of the mortal realm—and where you go next.
Gaining an Epic Destiny

Epic destiny abilities accrue from 21st to 30th level. As shown on the Character Advancement table in Chapter 2, your epic abilities pick up where paragon path benefits leave off.

After gaining all other benefits of reaching 21st level (including class features, ability score increases, and the like), you can choose an epic destiny.

Epic destinies are broader in scope than a class or paragon path. Though most have certain requirements to enter, even these typically apply to a wide range of characters with various backgrounds, talents, and powers.

If you don’t choose an epic destiny at 21st level, you can choose one at any level thereafter. You retroactively gain all benefits of the epic destiny appropriate to your current level.
Fulfilling Your Epic Destiny

The “Immortality” feature of your destiny is not gained at 30th level. Instead, it is gained when you and your allies complete their Destiny Quest. This is described more thoroughly in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, but essentially, your Destiny Quest is the final grand adventure of the campaign, during which you face the greatest challenges of your characters’ careers.

This quest might actually begin before 30th level (in fact, most do), but the climax of the quest can only occur after all participants have reached 30th level. Upon completing your Destiny Quest, your adventuring career—and your life as a normal mortal being—effectively ends. Your DM might give your character a little time to put affairs in order before moving on, or it can occur spontaneously upon completion of the quest. Work with your DM to determine the appropriate timing based on your character, your destiny, and the quest.

Once you’ve completed your Destiny Quest and initiated your ascension to immortality, your character’s story has ended. He lives on in legend, but he no longer takes part in mortal events. Instead, it’s time to create a new group of adventurers and begin a new story.
Archmage

As the Archmage, you lay claim to being the world’s preeminent wizard.

Prerequisite: 21st-level wizard

Your lifelong perusal of grimoires, librams, tomes, and spellbooks has finally revealed the foundation of reality to you: Spells are each tiny portions of a larger arcane truth. Every spell is part of some far superior working, evoking just a minuscule fraction of that ultimate formula. As you continue your studies, you advance your mastery of spells so much that they begin to infuse your flesh, granting you a facility in their use undreamed of by lesser practitioners.

You are often called to use your knowledge to defend the world from supernormal threats. Seeking ever greater enlightenment and the magical power that accompanies it, you are at times tempted by questionable relics, morally suspect spells, and ancient artifacts. Your destiny remains yours to choose—will you be archmage or archfiend?

Immortality, of a Sort
Archmages are an idiosyncratic lot. There’s no telling what choices the preeminent wizard of the age will make when he has completed his destiny. The following section details a path several Archmages have walked, but your path might vary.

Arcane Seclusion: When you complete your final quest, you retreat from the world to give your full time and attention to the study of the ultimate arcane formula, the Demispell, whose hyperplanar existence encompasses all the lesser spells there ever were or ever will be.

To aid your study, you build a sanctum sanctorum. At your option, your retreat provides you complete seclusion, and thus could take the form of a tower lost somewhere in the Elemental Chaos. However, you might desire to retain a tie to the world, and thus build a sanctum with a connection to the world. In such a case, you might found a new order of mages for which you serve as the rarely seen High Wizard. Alternatively, you might found a school of magic, for which you serve as the rarely seen headmaster.

Regardless of your retreat’s physical form or temporal connection, your contemplation of the arcanosphere persists. As the years flow onward, your study of the fundamental, deep structure of the cosmos removes you from the normal flow of time. Eventually your material shell fades as you merge into the Demispell itself.

Thereafter, your name becomes tied to powerful spells and rituals used by lesser wizards.

Archmage Features
All Archmages have the following features.

Spell Recall (21st level): At the beginning of each day, choose one daily spell that you know (and have prepared today, if you prepare spells). You can use that spell two times that day, rather than only once.

Arcane Spirit (24th level): Once per day, when you die, you can detach your spirit from your body. In arcane spirit form, you heal to maximum hit points and gain the insubstantial and phasing qualities. You can cast encounter spells and at-will spells while in arcane spirit form, but you can’t cast daily spells, activate magic items, or perform rituals. If you die in arcane spirit form, you’re dead.

At the end of the encounter, after a short rest, your arcane spirit rejoins your body, if your body is still present. Your current hit point total is unchanged, but you no longer experience the other benefits and drawbacks of being in arcane spirit form.

If your body is missing, you will need other magic to return to life, but can continue adventuring in arcane spirit form if you like.

Archspell (30th level): Your comprehension of the ultimate arcane formula and of the spells that constitute it reaches a new threshold. Choose one daily spell that you know. You can now cast that spell as an encounter spell (rather than as a daily spell).

Archmage Power
Shape Magic
Archmage Utility 26
You reach into the ebb and flow of arcane energy and pluck a spell you have already used out of the invisible tide, instantly recalling it to memory.
Daily
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You regain one arcane power you have already used.

Be sure to return Wednesday for a look at the economy!

Giants:
Giants
4th Edition Monster Manual

In today’s preview, we look at 4th Edition’s giants, with R&D’s Jennifer Clarke Wilkes offering the following introduction to their backstory:

As a staple of fantasy, giants are instantly recognizable to any player: big, often brutish creatures that look like people, wielding enormous clubs or axes. They make great opponents at any tier of play, and we naturally wanted to keep them in 4th Edition.

However, giants as a group had some problems. Many giants of previous editions suffered from being too similar to each other. Hill giants and stone giants, for example, behaved almost identically in combat and differed only in Armor Class and Intelligence (stone giant elders were a rare exception.) Yet at the same time, giants as a whole had little in common other than being good at throwing and catching rocks, and carrying around sacks filled with random junk. That’s just not enough to hang an entire creature type on.

Later Monster Manuals introduced more interesting kinds of giants, such as the death giant, wrapped in captive souls, and the eldritch giant, a highly intelligent being that could use magic items and spells to devastating effect. The fantastic qualities of such giants made them more distinctive and challenging opponents. As part of the overall 4th Edition design philosophy, we took the best of those ideas to give giants more variety. At the same time, we decided to emphasize the more supernatural aspects of giants as a unifying factor.

The new cosmology, rooted in a great war between the primordial first creators and the gods, offered a way to incorporate giants into the setting. Many existing giants already embodied elemental forces, such as stone, fire, and wind. The natural next step was to make them into elemental beings, the first creatures shaped by the primordials to assist them in their work. This approach actually returned giants to their Classical roots as creatures embodying natural forces. In keeping with that ancestry, titans also became an elemental race, precursors to and creators of the lesser giants. Now a titan isn’t just a big dude with a ton of spell-like powers, but a powerful leader whose nature is closely tied to an element or kind of energy.

Having been forged in the Elemental Chaos, giants moved into other worlds. The fall of the primordials drove their creations into the planes, where they adapted to local conditions and became less closely tied to their origins. Some giants built mighty empires in the world, enslaving the dwarves in so doing. By adding this backstory to dwarves in the implied setting of the game, we were able to provide some roleplaying hooks for that race, as well as better define the roles of elemental dwarflike creatures in the setting, most notably galeb duhr and azers.

A few, such as the death giants, embody their adopted planes more than the elements—but that heritage lives on, along with their memories of ancient power and empire. When the primordials stir, giants are naturally drawn to their side in order to fight once more for control of creation.

Giants are hulking humanoid creatures with fundamental ties to the world, be that bedrock, uncontrollable fires, raging storms, or inevitable death. The first giants were massive titans of fire and frost, storm and stone. These giants labored under primordial lords to shape the newly forming world.

In the eons since the first days, giants have multiplied and moved on, finding places to call their own in planes beyond the Elemental Chaos, including the Shadowfell and the Feywild, and even in the realm of their masters’ deific foes, the Astral Sea. However, giants prefer the world their labor helped create, and giants of every variety can be found upon it. Indeed, when the primordials retreated from the world, one of the first empires of that dawn era was one created by giants, and their slaves were the children of Moradin. But those heady days are long vanished.

Giants and titans tend to lair in extreme environments, including scrublands, mountain peaks, volcanic calderas, and searing deserts. These brutal landscapes remind giants of the Elemental Chaos where their ancestors first drew breath.

Giants as a whole answer to no particular overlord or higher power, nor are they known to cooperate among themselves. Indeed, giant clans often make war each other, though no one except giants know why they fight. However, should ever an imprisoned or lost primordial return to the world, giants of the lineage once loyal to it would obey that ancient one’s command.

Giants have marshaled just so in past primordial awakenings. Giants have long memories and longer oral histories, and most clans await the day they can renew their claim on the world in service to an unstoppable primordial entity.
--Jennifer Clarke Wilkes





Earth Giant

Creatures of stone and rock, earth giants are mean, uncouth, territorial monsters that often enslave smaller, weaker creatures.

Earth giants live in mountainside caves, as well as valleys, rocky barrens, canyons, and foothills.
Hill Giant
Level 13 Brute
Large natural humanoid (giant)
XP 800
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +7
HP 159; Bloodied 79
AC 25; Fortitude 27, Reflex 21, Will 23
Speed 8
MeleeGreatclub (standard; at-will) Weapon
Reach 2; +15 vs. AC; 1d10 + 5 damage.
MeleeSweeping Club (standard; encounter) Weapon
The hill giant makes a greatclub attack against two Medium or smaller targets; on a hit, the target is pushed 2 squares and knocked prone.
RangedHurl Rock (standard; at-will)
Ranged 8/16; +15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 5 damage.
Alignment Chaotic evil
Languages Giant
Skills Athletics +16
Str 21 (+11)
Dex 8 (+5)
Wis 12 (+7)
Con 19 (+10)
Int 7 (+4)
Cha 9 (+5)
Equipment hide armor, greatclub
Hill Giant Tactics

A hill giant hurls rocks at opponents until they close to melee range, at which point it switches to using its greatclub. As soon as two smaller targets come within reach, the giant uses sweeping club to knock them prone. A hill giant is wise enough to flee if hopelessly outmatched.
Earth Titan
Level 16 Elite Brute
Huge elemental humanoid (earth, giant)
XP 2,800
Initiative +7Senses Perception +9
HP 384; Bloodied 192
AC 31; Fortitude 33, Reflex 27, Will 28
Immune petrification
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points 1
MeleeSlam (standard; at-will)
Reach 3; +20 vs. AC; 2d10 + 6 damage.
MeleeDouble Attack (standard; at-will)
The earth titan makes two slam attacks.
RangedHurl Rock (standard; at-will)
Ranged 20; +18 vs. Reflex; 2d8 + 6 damage, and the target is dazed (save ends).
Alignment Chaotic evil
Languages Giant, Primordial
Skills Athletics +19
Str 23 (+14)
Dex 8 (+7)
Wis 12 (+9)
Con 22 (+14)
Int 11 (+8)
Cha 13 (+9)
Earth Titan Tactics

An earth titan hurls rocks at foes until they close to melee, at which point it pounds them with its stony fists, spending its action point to use earth shock. Unlike their hill giants cousins, earth titans stand their ground even when faced with a losing battle.
Earth Giant Lore

A character knows the following information with a successful Arcana check.

DC 20: Earth giants are the most brutish of giantkind. They inhabit badlands, deserts, and canyons, though lesser earth giants (such as hill giants) often gather in high mountain valleys and along mountain passes.

DC 25: Many of the dwarves who were enslaved by the earth giants were transformed as galeb duhrs. Some of them continue to serve earth giants, while others escaped and view giants (and earth giants in particular) as bitter enemies.

Encounter Groups

Earth giants associate with other giants, as well as with galeb duhrs and other monstrous and savage humanoids.

Level 13 Encounter (XP 4,000)

* 3 hill giants (level 13 brute)
* 1 displacer beast packlord (level 13 elite skirmisher)

Level 17 Encounter (XP 7,800)

* 1 earth titan (level 16 elite brute)
* 2 hill giants (level 13 brute)
* 2 war trolls (level 14 soldier)
* 4 ogre bludgeoneers (level 16 minion)


Edit: My opinion to get the discussion rolling:
The epic destiny article, taken by itself is somewhat disappointing as it only previews a single destiny, though with the 3.5 article they posted a while ago, it helps flesh out the idea of epic destinies.

The giants article hints at a classical (as in Ancient Greeks) origin story (or if you're a fan of the argument, they did something similar with the Warcraft creation story 4e=MOREPIG, lol) for the generic campaign scenario. Something before the gods (elementals in this case) create world, gods come into being, kick the crap out of elementals and shape the world to be hospitable for life because Yes-men make poor worshipers are aren't nearly as interesting as mortals.

Chronicled
2008-05-12, 01:31 AM
The epic destiny for Archmage didn't seem all that epic.

Is it just me missing it, or does the Earth Titan not actually have any power called Earth Shock (which it's detailed using)?

ShadowSiege
2008-05-12, 01:48 AM
The epic destiny for Archmage didn't seem all that epic.

Is it just me missing it, or does the Earth Titan not actually have any power called Earth Shock (which it's detailed using)?

The archmage's epic destiny is a bit boring if you don't go the "found a university" route. "He just disappeared one day" is kinda boring. Getting spells named after you though is quite epic.

And you are correct that earth shock isn't listed.

Starsinger
2008-05-12, 01:49 AM
Now, we all know that I am not the kind of person who thinks 4E is turning into WoW (I do think however, that D&D could learn a few things from video games and MMORPGs... but that's beside the point.) But the Archmage's ability to raise up and cast spells after dying made me think of this Priest talent in WoW which lets you do the same thing.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-12, 02:00 AM
It's more like he becomes a ghost until he can rejoin his body. Spirit of Redemption (the talent you're talking about) is a 10 second period where you're still able to cast spells as a semi-angelic being while everyone mocks you for sucking and wiping the raid. Not really in the same class. One makes your character into a ghost version of himself that can make his body rise from "only mostly dead" status after the battle, the other makes your character a corpse with a giant "I screwed up" sign over it.

Rutee
2008-05-12, 02:29 AM
No, they don't mock you. They curse you because you're /still/ tossing heals out in the Arena :P

Also, people die in Raids.

Anyway, I like the "When you Die" power for Archmages.

Skyserpent
2008-05-12, 02:33 AM
Okay, let's look at these two things...

Archspell (30th level): Your comprehension of the ultimate arcane formula and of the spells that constitute it reaches a new threshold. Choose one daily spell that you know. You can now cast that spell as an encounter spell (rather than as a daily spell).

Archmage Power
Shape Magic
Archmage Utility 26
You reach into the ebb and flow of arcane energy and pluck a spell you have already used out of the invisible tide, instantly recalling it to memory.
Daily
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You regain one arcane power you have already used.


So.... you can make Shape Magic your daily-encounter ability, and now you can cast ANY OTHER DAILY as a per-encounter ability. That seems pretty fun... Though you do waste actions.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 02:35 AM
So.... you can make Shape Magic your daily-encounter ability, and now you can cast ANY OTHER DAILY as a per-encounter ability. That seems pretty fun... Though you do waste actions.

As nice a trick as that woul dbe, Shape Magic isn't a spell, so you can't do that.

Starsinger
2008-05-12, 02:37 AM
Spirit of Redemption (the talent you're talking about) is a 10 second period where you're still able to cast spells as a semi-angelic being while everyone mocks you for sucking and wiping the raid. Not really in the same class. One makes your character into a ghost version of himself that can make his body rise from "only mostly dead" status after the battle, the other makes your character a corpse with a giant "I screwed up" sign over it.

:smallamused: I know what Spirit of Redemption is, I didn't say it because I wasn't sure exactly how much of my WoW-Player I wanted to show, I don't think I have room for a big banner for that. And it said the wizard could cast encounter and at will powers while in ... Archmage of Redemption or whatever, didn't it? Also I've never been mocked for having Spirit of Redemption, thanked on occasion, but never mocked.

Storm Bringer
2008-05-12, 02:56 AM
:smallamused: I know what Spirit of Redemption is, I didn't say it because I wasn't sure exactly how much of my WoW-Player I wanted to show, I don't think I have room for a big banner for that. And it said the wizard could cast encounter and at will powers while in ... Archmage of Redemption or whatever, didn't it? Also I've never been mocked for having Spirit of Redemption, thanked on occasion, but never mocked.

obviously, you play on the better sort of server.

MammonAzrael
2008-05-12, 03:33 AM
Ok, first off, Arcane Spirit is just crying out for Monty Python refrences. "It's only a flesh wound!" "I got better." Yeah, those will be tossed around at a lot of table in the coming months. :D

Now that that's out of the way, I like the preview, even if it is a little bland. The fluff seems more epic than the abilities, which is a little dissapointing, but I'm not going to judge until we see more Destinies and the 21-30 class/race powers.

As for the Giants, I like that they're going back towards "classic" creation myths for them. They really didn't have any binding flavor in 3rd. I'm guessing that earth shock is some supernatural attack that displays the Titan's connection to stone, and that the other Titans will have similar abilities. Whether they left it out accidently or on purpose, I couldn't say.

And I do like the art for the giants.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 03:39 AM
Ok, first off, Arcane Spirit is just crying out for Monty Python refrences. "It's only a flesh wound!" "I got better." Yeah, those will be tossed around at a lot of table in the coming months. :D

Monty Python references? In my gaming group?!

The_Snark
2008-05-12, 03:54 AM
Ok, first off, Arcane Spirit is just crying out for Monty Python refrences. "It's only a flesh wound!" "I got better." Yeah, those will be tossed around at a lot of table in the coming months. :D

Don't forget to throw in Miracle Max.

The destiny's not too exciting, especially compared with some of their 3.5 versions. I'm not talking mechanics, because one of the things that irks me is people judging 4e mechanics by 3rd edition standards, but off the top of my head, I remember the nature-oriented destiny culminated with the ability to merge with the landscape, which I'd have loved for practically any of my druid characters. The archmage is just... somewhat better at magic. They can't do much they couldn't already do. The ghostly spirit thing is sorta neat (and the phrase "once per day when you die" got a laugh from me), but I don't really see how it's especially fitting for a mage as compared to a priest or other divine servant.

I like the giant approach; they're taking a Norse mythology tack on it, which is definitely the most interesting historical take to giants, I think. Giants in D&D have never been interesting to me, except occasionally frost giants... which already have a Nordic take on things.

bosssmiley
2008-05-12, 03:57 AM
Epic Destinies: Looks like questing for immortality (in the style of OD&D's Masters/Immortals sets) is back. I'm not exactly expecting anything with the richness of "Runequest", but I hope the mechanics on offer will at least mesh well with the scope and scale of the required fluff.

Giants: The elemental giants thing is flavourful, and was partially presaged in "Secret of Xen'drik". Shame the fluff says the WOTC writers wanted to make giants more than big "Me crush with club!" thugs, but the stats we're shown leave them as almost exactly that. They talked a good fight... :smallconfused:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 04:45 AM
As nice a trick as that woul dbe, Shape Magic isn't a spell, so you can't do that.

I seem to recall from earlier previews that all of a wizard's powers are called "spells" (and divine powers are "prayers", and martial powers are "exploits").

Anyway. Compared to the third edition archmage, the crunch here is all rather bland. Rather than getting any cool powers, the wizard gets three flavors of "use an ability you already have once or twice extra", and one serving of essentially "double your hit point total".

What I also don't like is that, as with paragon paths, each "epic destiny" seems specifically keyed to one particular class (or one other, if you take that cross-classing feat of which you're allowed only one). So you can't really customize a character by choosing a paragon or destiny that fits best with you.

Larrin
2008-05-12, 05:26 AM
What I also don't like is that, as with paragon paths, each "epic destiny" seems specifically keyed to one particular class (or one other, if you take that cross-classing feat of which you're allowed only one). So you can't really customize a character by choosing a paragon or destiny that fits best with you.

if by "each epic destiny" you mean the only one they showed us, the yes, every epic destiny named "archmage" that lets you become the Ultimate wizard requires that you be a wizard. :P If you have an epic destiny called archmage, of the 8 4e classes we have, only wizard really qualifies (warlocks...one could make an argument either way).

They did state that most epic destinies would be broader and easier for a larger number of classes to get into. Granted, they then show one of the destinies with a narrow scope, but that shouldn't surprise you. They do silly things like that. I think we can expect that many destinies will have more of "you need to be proficient with a martial weapon" or "you must be trained in thievery" type requirements, but some destinies are really just niches of one class, and will have that reasonable requirement.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 05:29 AM
The did state that most epic destinies would be broader and easier for a larger number of classes to get into.

Yes, and they said the same about paragon paths, and it turned out that instead, every paragon path was keyed to one particular class.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 05:48 AM
Yes, and they said the same about paragon paths, and it turned out that instead, every paragon path was keyed to one particular class.

All it takes is one (multiclass) feat, and you can take another class' paragon path. Plus, there'll be multiple paths for each class.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 05:55 AM
All it takes is one (multiclass) feat, and you can take another class' paragon path. Plus, there'll be multiple paths for each class.

There will? Got a source on that?

Starsinger
2008-05-12, 05:58 AM
There will? Got a source on that?

Beyond logic? I'm sure there is one. I mean, if you only had one path for each class, why not bother just having it be straight classed?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 06:18 AM
There will? Got a source on that?

I can't find a direct link, but a quote from WotC_Miko:


1) There are over 30 paragon paths in the PH.

2) My paladin took a multiclass cleric feat so she could qualify for a cleric paragon path.


__________________
Michele Carter, RPG Senior Editor, Wizards of the Coast

purepolarpanzer
2008-05-12, 07:07 AM
Giants: The elemental giants thing is flavourful, and was partially presaged in "Secret of Xen'drik". Shame the fluff says the WOTC writers wanted to make giants more than big "Me crush with club!" thugs, but the stats we're shown leave them as almost exactly that. They talked a good fight... :smallconfused:

Yeah, really. Cause I mean, stats aren't used for combat or anything. And you can't roleplay them at all, cause the stats are all you look at. And we havn't seen any of their other stuff, only a brief excerpt.

Sarcasm. The other white meat.

But seriously, if you just look at a stat block, 9/10 monsters look like thog smash. Thats what stat blocks are for- combat. Course, it the MM comes out and I'm wrong, that's one thing. But we havn't seen enough to judge on uh anything from 4th.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-12, 07:07 AM
Fear the giants!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080512_114773_0.jpg

Valairn
2008-05-12, 07:27 AM
*Obligatory 4th Edition is going to suck post*

(I don't actually think that.)

Jarlax
2008-05-12, 07:39 AM
i gotta agree that the example immortality for the archmage seems pretty bland. however the truth is this is just another mechanic, like skill challenges, where the mechanic is only as good as the DM using it.

they haven't stated it outright in the article but i bet its in the DMG for the destiny quest chapter. epic immortality is supposed to bleed into your other games, you see more of it in the 3.5 conversion but the idea is that your level 30 game ends and Vaarsuvius the archmage passes on, but not their legacy.

now in your next game a spell that Vaarsuvius authored or favored should be named after him/her. eg Vaarsuvius's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion or Vaarsuvius's true scrying. or maybe a PC or major NPC are associated with the Vaarsuvius school of arcane arts or late in the campaign the new party quests through the forgotten sanctum of Vaarsuvius.

like a little easter egg the DM might make reference to the previous campaigns through the legacy of the former parties immortality. perhaps one of the players gains the demigod destiny and becomes available as a god for clerics to select to worship next game,

Edit: or a previous party member becomes the final villain in the next campaign ala Diablo II.

Hunter Noventa
2008-05-12, 07:41 AM
I'm not sure I like the way they predefine your life with the epic destinies. The whole thing about "this is how you leave the world and that's that". I can see many a DM refluffing that.

Jarlax
2008-05-12, 07:48 AM
I'm not sure I like the way they predefine your life with the epic destinies. The whole thing about "this is how you leave the world and that's that". I can see many a DM refluffing that.

ah but your not predefining your life at all, you select your epic destiny 2/3 of the way into the campaign, probably selecting the one most true to your PC.


Immortality, of a Sort
Archmages are an idiosyncratic lot. There’s no telling what choices the preeminent wizard of the age will make when he has completed his destiny. The following section details a path several Archmages have walked, but your path might vary.

the entry even goes so far as to remind you that your immortality is a co-operative effort between you and your DM, each entry gives examples of how your PC might bow out of mortal affairs but ultimately you have control of what happens. one brilliant example would be Dragonball Z (pretending they never came back and did GT) where the major hero doesn't ascend or reincarnate, his immortality was to pass his skills and teachings to the next generation, selecting a new champion for earth in order to ensure earths safety after he was gone.

Swooper
2008-05-12, 08:07 AM
Epic Destinies: I'm with the 'huh, archmage seems pretty bland' crowd. Nothing interesting here. Artwork is kind of weird, it's supposed to be an EPIC wizard but he looks nothing like what you'd expect one to look like. Where are all the colourful shiny magic items? :smalltongue:

Giants: Firstly, I love the artwork. Very nice momentum in the earth titan's slam, you almost wince and wait for it to hit you when looking at it. I like the fluff too, being Scandinavian (ok, so technically Iceland isn't a part of Scandinavia, but it's the same cultural area) myself I can relate to the elemental-giants theme easily, though the Nordic mythology had only frost giants (hrímþursar) and fire giants (eldjötnar), it all makes sense. Nothing we didn't know from Worlds & Monsters though. As for the crunch, I, like bosssmiley, am unimpressed. They talk about making giants interesting and then give them bland statblocks? No fun special abilities other than 'smash with club' and 'smash hard with club'. Though we don't know what's up with the earth shock mentioned but not shown in the Earth Titan section, and we only saw one flavour of giants - hopefully, the fire, frost and stormgiants will be more fun.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 08:07 AM
one brilliant example would be Dragonball Z (pretending they never came back and did GT) where the major hero doesn't ascend or reincarnate, his immortality was to pass his skills and teachings to the next generation

Yessirree, his immortality not at all included coming back from the dead to help fight every single big monster they faced... OR to take driving lessons.

InaVegt
2008-05-12, 08:24 AM
Okay, let's look at these two things...

Archspell (30th level): Your comprehension of the ultimate arcane formula and of the spells that constitute it reaches a new threshold. Choose one daily spell that you know. You can now cast that spell as an encounter spell (rather than as a daily spell).

Archmage Power
Shape Magic
Archmage Utility 26
You reach into the ebb and flow of arcane energy and pluck a spell you have already used out of the invisible tide, instantly recalling it to memory.
Daily
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You regain one arcane power you have already used.


So.... you can make Shape Magic your daily-encounter ability, and now you can cast ANY OTHER DAILY as a per-encounter ability. That seems pretty fun... Though you do waste actions.

Doesn't work. As 'Archmage Power' is not a daily spell (even though it can't be used daily), it's a utility spell.

bosssmiley
2008-05-12, 08:27 AM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/art_preview/20080512_114773_0.jpg

Now this is the sort of flavour that we want more of! Give us stuff we really haven't seen before, like an insight into the secretive subculture of the rock giant ballerinas. WOTC should give up more plothooky information about their ponderous - but strangely beautiful - dances. :smallbiggrin:

"Me am pretty, pretty princess!" *CRASH, CRASH*

Xefas
2008-05-12, 08:28 AM
I like the idea of Epic Destinies, though I find it hard to believe anyone wouldn't like the idea of "You just spent the last 2 years on a single campaign, your characters have been through enough trials and tribulations that you could write a 3+ book fantasy series of their exploits and be called a derivative hack by people all over the world. Now, something awesome happens to them."

The mechanics for only one Epic Destiny really aren't enough to judge that portion of them, though.

As for Giants. Well, they can't make them any more generic and boring mechanics-wise than previous editions, so at the very worst, we'll lose nothing. Otherwise, it'll be a net gain, no matter how minuscule.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 08:31 AM
Doesn't work. As 'Archmage Power' is not a daily spell (even though it can't be used daily), it's a utility spell.

So you're saying that the word "daily" has two different meanings, and WOTC doesn't use a thesaurus... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)

InaVegt
2008-05-12, 08:40 AM
So you're saying that the word "daily" has two different meanings, and WOTC doesn't use a thesaurus... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)

Why, yes, yes I am.

(I was thinking of the same comic when I wrote that post)

Matthew
2008-05-12, 08:44 AM
Now this is the sort of flavour that we want more of! Give us stuff we really haven't seen before, like an insight into the secretive subculture of the rock giant ballerinas. WOTC should give up more plothooky information about their ponderous - but strangely beautiful - dances. :smallbiggrin:

"Me am pretty, pretty princess!" *CRASH, CRASH*

Hah, hah. I held my tongue as to what I thought of that art, but now you've opened the floodgates...



So you're saying that the word "daily" has two different meanings, and WOTC doesn't use a thesaurus... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)



Why, yes, yes I am.

(I was thinking of the same comic when I wrote that post)

Interestingly (and as with most such 'problems' in D&D), Gygax goes to some length in the PHB/DMG to explain his choice of usage. Suffice to say, alternatives were considered. :smallwink:

Jarlax
2008-05-12, 08:46 AM
Yessirree, his immortality not at all included coming back from the dead to help fight every single big monster they faced... OR to take driving lessons.

being dead and reaching immortality are different things. the archmage and 3.5 conversion of artifact lord both show how being dead is really just an annoyance by 21st level onward. one turns into a spell ghost and the other turns into a intelligent item while their physical body is "in the shop".

immortality is reached at the end of the campaign. in which case goku does it twice, once at the end of Z and again at the end of GT.

the point i was making is your immortality is how your PC ends the game, the mechanic by which he finally distances himself from mortal affairs. dragonball makes an excellent contrast because in Z it is a simple gesture, selecting a pupil to follow his legacy. while in GT is something flashy by becoming part of the immortal dragon shenron.

fendrin
2008-05-12, 08:56 AM
Doesn't work. As 'Archmage Power' is not a daily spell (even though it can't be used daily), it's a utility spell.

'Utility' is a type of spell, as is 'attack'. It is still a daily power. All powers are 'at-will', 'encounter', or 'daily'.

Look here (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard2.jpg) at expeditious retreat. It is a 2nd level daily utility spell.

Archmage Power is a 26th level daily utility spell (all arcane powers are spells, even the warlock's eldritch blast is a spell).

The 'trick' works. You sacrifice n-1 actions per day to use a daily power as an encounter power (where n = number of encounters that you decide to use the daily power). Even better, you can use this on any spell you have used.

Keep in mind, this is something you can do at 30th level. It's a capstone ability, one step shy of immortality. It should be, well, epic.

Wait, didn't I hear somewhere that encounter powers could be used once every five minutes outside of an encounter? Using this trick you can recover a daily spell once every five minutes. So long as you have 5 minutes per daily spell used, you can use EVERY daily spell in EVERY encounter.

Who says the mechanics are 'meh'?

InaVegt
2008-05-12, 09:04 AM
'Utility' is a type of spell, as is 'attack'. It is still a daily power. All powers are 'at-will', 'encounter', or 'daily'.

Look here (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/HumanWizard2.jpg) at expeditious retreat. It is a 2nd level daily utility spell.

Archmage Power is a 26th level daily utility spell (all arcane powers are spells, even the warlock's eldritch blast is a spell).

The 'trick' works. You sacrifice n-1 actions per day to use a daily power as an encounter power (where n = number of encounters that you decide to use the daily power). Even better, you can use this on any spell you have used.

Keep in mind, this is something you can do at 30th level. It's a capstone ability, one step shy of immortality. It should be, well, epic.

Wait, didn't I hear somewhere that encounter powers could be used once every five minutes outside of an encounter? Using this trick you can recover a daily spell once every five minutes. So long as you have 5 minutes per daily spell used, you can use EVERY daily spell in EVERY encounter.

Who says the mechanics are 'meh'?

Yes, it can be used daily. That doesn't make it a daily spell/power.

There are four categories of powers: At will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility. All utility powers I've seen can only be used daily, this does NOT make them part of two categories.

At least, that's my interpretation till we have definite proof in the form of rulebooks.

KIDS
2008-05-12, 09:15 AM
I'm very impressed with the Archmage epic destiny... I hope they don't make it a default path/end for all arcane characters, simply for the sake of diversity, but ideas contained in there are something I wouldn't mind playing through with most of my arcane characters. It reminds me of Alpha Centauri, in a way...

p.s. but while I like the giants and what is described as a change in their purpose, I don't see why they are "chaotic evil" by default. Unaligned would be a much better fit for a starting point!

Morty
2008-05-12, 09:43 AM
p.s. but while I like the giants and what is described as a change in their purpose, I don't see why they are "chaotic evil" by default. Unaligned would be a much better fit for a starting point!

But you wouldn't be as justified in killing them for XP then. It's one of those things 4ed didn't change.

Duke of URL
2008-05-12, 10:33 AM
I'm kind of torn on epic destinies, from what I've seen so far. On the good side, the fluff provides some kind of coherent rationale for having a level cap -- you find a way to retire the character while providing some kind of "end" to the character's story. Thus, you never have to worry about expanding the game by raising level caps, you simply focus on the effects the epic character had on the world, and tell new stories from there.

On the bad side, this is another example of how tightly certain fluff is tied to certain mechanics. Epic destinies don't provide many mechanics, but why they should be so tightly tied to the fluff defies description. Likewise, the fluff, while providing a logic end to the "story", discounts the possibility of other logical ends -- it has the feeling of being very setting-based, and therefor, epic destinies are something I think a lot of games will use the mechanics of while discarding the fluff altogether.

Plus, who is really going to take characters all the way to 30th level? It's rare to see a 3.5 game get into epic levels, typically because the game gets a bit silly with the power levels at that level, and leaks of 4e playtesting indicate that this won't be changing much (nor do abilities that start, "once per day, when you die..."), albeit that the silliness might be more balanced in 4e (not that this would be hard to do, compared to the lack of balance in 3.5 at higher and higher levels).

fendrin
2008-05-12, 11:13 AM
Yes, it can be used daily. That doesn't make it a daily spell/power.

There are four categories of powers: At will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility. All utility powers I've seen can only be used daily, this does NOT make them part of two categories.

At least, that's my interpretation till we have definite proof in the form of rulebooks.

Really, where you are making a mistake is that there are two categories of categories at play. All powers belong to one of each type of category.

Category 1: frequency of use (at-will, encounter, daily)
Category 2: purpose/type (cantrip, attack, utility... others I'm forgetting right now)

If you look at the article and see where it says utility (far right of the name bar), and then look at the link I posted at the same spot on the Sleep spell (upper left corner) it says 'attack'. On expeditious retreat, it says 'utility'. On Light it says 'cantrip'. This is category 2. 'Utility' does not belong in category one.

Draz74
2008-05-12, 11:17 AM
@Gezina: No. There are 6 types of powers:

Attack At-Will
Attack Encounter
Attack Daily
Utility At-Will
Utility Encounter
Utility Daily

I don't know if we've seen a Utility At-Will power yet, but rogues certainly get a Utility Encounter power at Level 2 (Tumble).

* * *

Personally, unlike the seeming majority, I thought this Giants preview was lame -- the most disappointing of the monster previews we've seen. Maybe I'm just not versed in Nordic lore enough. But it seemed like this to me:

"We need something to spice up giants. What can we add to them?"
"..."
"..."
"How about we strengthen their elemental connection? We already have Fire Giants. Why not say they're from the Elemental Chaos, and make them based on all kinds of elements? We could have Water Giants. Stone Giants could actually be made out of rocks, like elementals, instead of just being gray and really hard and taciturn. Just make them all based on elemental themes."
"Dude, that doesn't really give them a more interesting personality or society. It's just a cop-out way to come up with themed mechanics for them."
"You got any better ideas?"
"And don't we already have enough monsters whose 'schtick' is elemental themes? Archons. Elementals themselves. Probably some demons, since the Abyss is now in the Elemental Chaos. Genies. Xorn. Azer, Salamanders, Mephits ... the list goes on and on."
"You got any better ideas?"
"Not to mention other monsters that D&D already does the same thing with. Even dragons. You know, in most fantasy, different dragons don't breathe different things? That's just a rule they made up for D&D, back in Gygax's time, so they could have an easy way of making lots of different dragon monsters that were different mechanically."
"You got any better ideas?"
"..."
"..."
"OK, sure, why not."

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-12, 11:34 AM
The giants article seems goood, but the epic destinies...It's probably the first thing of 4th I TRULY don't like.

See, the way it's shaping up, and considering the preview 3.5 Epic destinies, Epic destinies are apparently falling into two very distinct camps: Awesome, like the Eternal Champion/Warrior and the Shadow whatever, and utterly pathetic and usually sucky, like the force of nature, the blade of ragnarok, or the archmage. The first two give the impression of actually being powerful enough to make a few gods pee their pants, the rest not only are bland and boring, but if the 3.5 implementation is a hint of what's to come, completely sucky on the mechanical standpoint. I really hope the destinies we still have to see fall into the Awesome cathegory, 'cause most of what we've seen doesn't seem epic at all.

Swooper
2008-05-12, 12:40 PM
I don't know if we've seen a Utility At-Will power yet
I believe we've seen a wizard power called Mage Hand, that was utility and at will. I think it was ...in the powers preview?

Talya
2008-05-12, 12:55 PM
Hey! Something I like!

Epic Destinies were a great idea for epic character flavor in 3.5, except epic levels were so bloody broken that nobody gamed at epic levels.

Yes, this is cool, built right into the core rules. I like it.

It's not enough to offset all the other stuff they've pissed me off with, but this is nice.

xirr2000
2008-05-13, 01:17 AM
Now, we all know that I am not the kind of person who thinks 4E is turning into WoW (I do think however, that D&D could learn a few things from video games and MMORPGs... but that's beside the point.) But the Archmage's ability to raise up and cast spells after dying made me think of this Priest talent in WoW which lets you do the same thing.

Hehe, right there with ya.

Leliel
2008-05-13, 06:31 PM
Epic Destinies: I'm with the 'huh, archmage seems pretty bland' crowd. Nothing interesting here. Artwork is kind of weird, it's supposed to be an EPIC wizard but he looks nothing like what you'd expect one to look like. Where are all the colourful shiny magic items? :smalltongue:


Actually, there are.

In the latest edition of Dragon Netzine, they outlined an epic destiny called "Artifact Lord", which is, as it sounds, has everything to do with nifty magic items. Hell, at it's peak, you can summon a sphere of annihilation, or another minor artifact, if you so desire.

Once you complete your Destiny Quest, you get to transfer your soul into an artifact as well, so not only is that literal immortality, it also gives you an excuse to play a former character.:smalltongue:

Mewtarthio
2008-05-13, 08:12 PM
In the latest edition of Dragon Netzine, they outlined an epic destiny called "Artifact Lord", which is, as it sounds, has everything to do with nifty magic items. Hell, at it's peak, you can summon a sphere of annihilation, or another minor artifact, if you so desire.

Once you complete your Destiny Quest, you get to transfer your soul into an artifact as well, so not only is that literal immortality, it also gives you an excuse to play a former character.:smalltongue:

That sounds exactly like the 3.5 Artifact Lord outlined a few weeks ago. Are you sure it was a 4e epic destiny?

As I recall, I wagered that it would end up in 4e as well, so please say "Yes."

Leliel
2008-05-14, 11:57 AM
That sounds exactly like the 3.5 Artifact Lord outlined a few weeks ago. Are you sure it was a 4e epic destiny?

As I recall, I wagered that it would end up in 4e as well, so please say "Yes."

Yep. You are most correct.

*shouting* Hey you! Pay up!