PDA

View Full Version : Discount?



shadow_archmagi
2008-05-12, 05:14 AM
I just noticed that in the pricing magical items section, it says that items which work only with one alignment or class should have the price reduced by roughly one third.

Does this mean:

"By ensuring that only you can use your equipment, you may have it for cheap"
???

kamikasei
2008-05-12, 05:19 AM
It seems to me a very stupid guideline because, while it makes economic sense that an item usable by more people would sell for more as there's a greater pool of demand, the gold price of an item is the basis for a bunch of other things that shouldn't be effected. Either a character can or can't use it, so he's not getting one-third the benefit, he's getting all the benefit or none. Nor does it make sense that it would take only one-third the time or money to craft.

The most consideration I'd give to that guideline would be to calculate the GP value normally but advise the player that if he wants to sell it he'll get well below normal market price. This can be used to encourage players to hold on to items tailored to them. For most purposes you can probably safely disregard it entirely.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-12, 05:28 AM
It seems to me a very stupid guideline because, while it makes economic sense that an item usable by more people would sell for more as there's a greater pool of demand, the gold price of an item is the basis for a bunch of other things that shouldn't be effected. Either a character can or can't use it, so he's not getting one-third the benefit, he's getting all the benefit or none. Nor does it make sense that it would take only one-third the time or money to craft.

The most consideration I'd give to that guideline would be to calculate the GP value normally but advise the player that if he wants to sell it he'll get well below normal market price. This can be used to encourage players to hold on to items tailored to them. For most purposes you can probably safely disregard it entirely.

Its "reduce by a third" not to a third. So a 6000 gp hat becomes a 4000 gp hat. What if they buy it using their WBL?

sikyon
2008-05-12, 05:30 AM
It seems to me a very stupid guideline because, while it makes economic sense that an item usable by more people would sell for more as there's a greater pool of demand, the gold price of an item is the basis for a bunch of other things that shouldn't be effected. Either a character can or can't use it, so he's not getting one-third the benefit, he's getting all the benefit or none.

Just because you can't use something doesn't mean that it would be worthless to you. Secondary market always puts a price on things. If I was in possesion of a plane, I'd try and get full market value for it even though I can't use it personally. If everyone could fly planes and the supply of planes was the same, then the value of the plane would be much, much higher. Secondary market resale value always affects the price of an object.


Nor does it make sense that it would take only one-third the time or money to craft.

Only keyed to a specific alignment/class, requires less resources than keying it to everybody. Ie. it's eaisier to design a program that only a few specialized people can use thanks to their skills than an idiot proof system.

Talic
2008-05-12, 05:40 AM
That discount system is for DM-generated treasure. It reflects that items which aren't as easy to use should have less of an impact on WBL. I usually allow players a 10% discount if they make every item they own usable by them only, though. Mainly because it makes the items worthless to anyone else, and keeps WBL from blowing out of proportion with character death.

But yeah, that's a DM tool, not a player tool. Hence, why magic item creation rules are all in the DMG.

kamikasei
2008-05-12, 05:54 AM
Its "reduce by a third" not to a third. So a 6000 gp hat becomes a 4000 gp hat. What if they buy it using their WBL?

Whoops, yes, sorry. But what do you mean about WBL? That was my point about it either working for them or not, if the effect is worth 6000 gp then the fact that only they can use it doesn't make it less useful to them and so it should still have equal impact on their WBL, whereas if they can't use it at all then it's basically a trade good and isn't worth a full 2/3rds of the normal WBL cost (as a power/balance metric).


Just because you can't use something doesn't mean that it would be worthless to you. Secondary market always puts a price on things. If I was in possesion of a plane, I'd try and get full market value for it even though I can't use it personally. If everyone could fly planes and the supply of planes was the same, then the value of the plane would be much, much higher. Secondary market resale value always affects the price of an object.

Let's say n people can fly a plane. Now let's say I have a plane which for some reason only redheads can fly. Since this additional restriction cuts down the number of people who can use it without making it any more useful to those people, you have a smaller pool of end users to sell to, thus less demand. I'm not saying something I can't use is worthless to me, but of two identical things one of which can be ultimately useful to three times as many people as the other, I can expect to get a higher price for the more generally useable item.


Only keyed to a specific alignment/class, requires less resources than keying it to everybody. Ie. it's eaisier to design a program that only a few specialized people can use thanks to their skills than an idiot proof system.

This is a valid point but depends very much on how magic is conceived of in the game. For what you suggest to make sense would imply that use-restricted items should be far more common as being far easier to make. If you have to go to additional effort to make equipment generally usable then you would expect elves to overwhelmingly make weapons only elves can use, etc. This doesn't seem to be the basic assumption of the magic item system.

It's easier to write a program that anyone can use than one which requires passwords and authentication, but does exactly the same job otherwise.

Talic
2008-05-12, 06:13 AM
Let's say n people can fly a plane. Now let's say I have a plane which for some reason only redheads can fly. Since this additional restriction cuts down the number of people who can use it without making it any more useful to those people, you have a smaller pool of end users to sell to, thus less demand. I'm not saying something I can't use is worthless to me, but of two identical things one of which can be ultimately useful to three times as many people as the other, I can expect to get a higher price for the more generally useable item.


That concept breaks down at the point the item becomes a specialty item.

Plane A is only flyable by redheads. Well, such an item is rarely wanted, so there's only a couple made, for the eccentric.

Plane B is flyable by anyone. Crafters know this is a popular item, and make dozens. In fact, dozens of crafters make dozens of them.

Now, when you look for Plane A, one of three things are possible:

1) Discontinued item, on clearance: Get a discount.

2) Specialty item, sold to the elite few concerned about item security: Raise the price for the "security feature", and the scarcity.

3) Out of stock, item available by commission only: the purchase request establishes demand. Supply is limited. Raise the price.

sikyon
2008-05-12, 06:23 AM
Let's say n people can fly a plane. Now let's say I have a plane which for some reason only redheads can fly. Since this additional restriction cuts down the number of people who can use it without making it any more useful to those people, you have a smaller pool of end users to sell to, thus less demand. I'm not saying something I can't use is worthless to me, but of two identical things one of which can be ultimately useful to three times as many people as the other, I can expect to get a higher price for the more generally useable item.


I believe this is what I said...



This is a valid point but depends very much on how magic is conceived of in the game. For what you suggest to make sense would imply that use-restricted items should be far more common as being far easier to make. If you have to go to additional effort to make equipment generally usable then you would expect elves to overwhelmingly make weapons only elves can use, etc. This doesn't seem to be the basic assumption of the magic item system.


You asked for a rationale as to why it might cost less to make, and I provided one. Wether or not your in-game economics make sense according to this rationale... well, that doesn't really affect this guideline because econmoics is a result of, and not a cause of the magic item creation guidlines.

Futhermore, I would like to remind you that magic item creation guidelines should only be used for PC's. Like most rules in D&D, if you begin to apply these to everyone then D&D world quickly deterioates into a rediculous setting.



It's easier to write a program that anyone can use than one which requires passwords and authentication, but does exactly the same job otherwise.

You are assuming that the additional restriction is like a password, where it is something layered on top of the core item. I am telling you it's an integral part of its construction. For example, it's much eaisier to manufacture a regular car than a car which anyone could drive at the touch of a hat by simply speaking commands to it.

In essence, the use requirements are not passwords. Any such requirement is really a missing peice of the magic of the item, which requires the user to fill it.

So a general use magic item is composed of law, chaos, good, evil and neutrality. Your restriction magic item is not composed of law, chaos, good, evil and neutrality with a secondary restriction to only allow good characters to use it. Your magic item is composed of law, chaos, evil and neutrality and requires the user's inherent goodness to complete the item and render it usable. Etc.

Edit:



2) Specialty item, sold to the elite few concerned about item security: Raise the price for the "security feature", and the scarcity.

3) Out of stock, item available by commission only: the purchase request establishes demand. Supply is limited. Raise the price.

Neither is logical as the plane requires less resources and time to construct over a normal plane. Any increased demand can be much more easily met.