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pasko77
2008-05-12, 07:29 AM
Hello everybody!
(premise: i don't know the english names of the feats, since we use italian rules, i will be translating them on the fly, so they might be wrong).

Given the character concept (a juggler, specialized in knife throwing), i soon realized that my characted is not able to do anything in combat.
Therefore i gave him Combat Expertise (-5 to hit, +5ac) and made him a flanking buddy, since the song lasts 5 rounds i can stop singing and in the same round draw my weapon and get into melee (i have the feat Fast Draw).
Now i had the idea to give him Improved Disarm and a 2 handed spear. In this way i have +8 to the disarm roll, that should overcome the malus wrt melee classes, and i have a simple weapon that in need i can throw quite efficiently (i have Point Blank Shot).
Is this a good idea, or it's totally lame? Other ideas?

Please notice that the feats Fast draw and point blank shot are necessary for character concept, and also combat Expertise gives the idea of a juggler, very nimble and agile.

Also, we have a vastly unoptimized group, no batmans, only spontaneous cast, 2 pure class fighters, 1 druid and 1 cleric, so also a lame optimization works. :)

Bye, Pasko

Miraqariftsky
2008-05-12, 07:57 AM
Hey, sounds good to me. Looks like a sound and stable plan. Go for it, bub.

Hmm, will he then be juggling spears? Hohoho...

A-hum, nothing wrong, I see with your group. It's a good old classic... 'xcept there's no rogue (which you'll probably fill) and no arcanist (but heck, two divine casters more'n makes up for it, methinks). Divine casters ain't slouches in damage-dealing, buffing and other utility spells and they sure as heck are healing powerhouses...

pasko77
2008-05-12, 08:44 AM
Hey, sounds good to me. Looks like a sound and stable plan. Go for it, bub.

Hmm, will he then be juggling spears? Hohoho...



I was thinking to use the spear to keep equilibrium while walking the rope :)

Draz74
2008-05-12, 09:51 AM
As long as you face a lot of enemies that use weapons in your campaign, this sounds like a good plan.

Miraqariftsky
2008-05-12, 10:00 AM
As long as you face a lot of enemies that use weapons in your campaign, this sounds like a good plan.

Ah, a good point, you raise... well, mebbe he can pick up some Improved Tripping as well, eh?

Keld Denar
2008-05-12, 10:36 AM
What level area you already? What race are you, and what feats do you have? I just came up with a neat “flaming juggler” themed character that is pretty effective, especially at lower levels.

Strongheart Halfling
1 Bard 1 Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic), Point Blank Shot
2 Bard 2
3 Bard 3 Quickdraw, Song of the Heart ACF (Ebberon CS)
4 Fighter 1 Rapid Shot
5 Fighter 2 Precice Shot
6 Bard 4 Two Weapon Fighting
7 Master Thrower 1
8 Master Thrower 2
9 Master Thrower 3 Greater TWF
10 Master Thrower 4
11 Master Thrower 5
12 Bard 5 Far Shot
13 Bard 6
14 Bard 7
15 Bard 8 Improved TWF
16 Bard 9
17 Bard 10
18 Bard 11 Chaos Music (Dragon Mag ###, +4 effective level to songs)
19 Bard 12
20 Bard 13

With this build, instead of Inspiring Courage like normal, you Inspire Dragonfire, adding +xd6 fire damage to all allies attacks. Next, build up your Inspire Courage with things like the Inspirational Boost spell from Spell Compendium, and the Song of the Heart Alt Class Feature from the Ebberon Campaign Setting (non-campaign specific, replaces Inspire Competance). At 3rd level, you'll have +3d6 fire damage to all your and your allies attacks. Then you get Rapid Shot, which lets you throw 2 daggers in a round for a -2 penalty on attacks. Shouldn't be a problem. Then, you get TWF to throw another from your offhand, giving you 3 attacks in a round at -4. By level 7, you have a 4th attack per round from BAB, and you start taking levels of Master Thrower. At MT5, you get Double Toss, which allows you to double the number of daggers you can throw. Now you throw 3 main hand and 2 off hand daggers, which doubles to 10 attacks a round, each of which does +3d6 fire damage (30d6 if all hit). About that time you should nab a Vest of Legends(DMGII) and a Badge of Valor (MIC) to bump your bard song by another 2 points so those 10 attacks actually deal +50d6 fire damage. From there, you grab some more bard levels and Improved TWF for even more attacks per round with more fire damage per hit. By level 20, you'll be making like 18 attacks per round with +7d6 fire damage on each one, for a grand total of +128d6 fire damage, or aprox 441 fire damage per round, plus weapon damage and any magic modifiers.

The problems with the build.
1) fire is the most commonly resisted element in the game. If you DM has a lot of outsiders, you get nerfed significantly. Your base damage will be really low, its the fire damage multiplied by a high rate of fire you are hoping for.
2) you throw A LOT OF DAGGERS. Instead of having 1 weapon to enchant, you have many. Because of the way the Returning enhancement is written, you can't even use multiple returning daggers. I'd recommend just using normal nonmagical daggers and see if the cleric will cast a Chained Greater Magic Weapon on them at some point each day. 2 castings should be enough daggers for a single encounter.

Kurobara
2008-05-12, 10:55 AM
since the song lasts 5 rounds i can stop singing and in the same round draw my weapon and get into melee

Um, except for those songs which require concentration (which Inspire Courage is not), you can sing and hit things in the face at the same time. It's pretty nice. :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2008-05-12, 10:55 AM
Just a note, you don't have to stop singing to start fighting. As long as you don't need your voice for anything else (like spellcasting), you can just keep on singing as long as you like, while you fight. This could be important, if a battle lasts longer than five rounds.

quiet1mi
2008-05-12, 11:12 AM
Just a note, you don't have to stop singing to start fighting. As long as you don't need your voice for anything else (like spellcasting), you can just keep on singing as long as you like, while you fight. This could be important, if a battle lasts longer than five rounds.

is that really true Chronos?! if so, you have just validated my existence as a [fighting class]/bard and gave the bard a winning chance in my games!

Keld Denar
2008-05-12, 11:50 AM
is that really true Chronos?! if so, you have just validated my existence as a [fighting class]/bard and gave the bard a winning chance in my games!

I'll confirm what Chronos said. Attacking does not end a bard song. Spell casting doesn't even have to end it, if you take the Melodic Casting feat. You could persist the same bard song throughout an entire day while attacking, and even while casting if you had that feat. If you spoke in rhyme and verse, and had perform: oratory or poetry you could even get away having whole conversations without breaking a bard song.

Only if you have bard song that includes an instrument that requires both hands would you have to stop the song in order to draw and use a weapon unless you got really creative, like with Quad Toms and +1 Drumsticks (of DOOM).

quiet1mi
2008-05-12, 01:05 PM
You could persist the same bard song throughout an entire day while attacking, and even while casting if you had that feat. If you spoke in rhyme and verse, and had perform: oratory or poetry you could even get away having whole conversations without breaking a bard song.

Only if you have bard song that includes an instrument that requires both hands would you have to stop the song in order to draw and use a weapon unless you got really creative, like with Quad Toms and +1 Drumsticks (of DOOM).

You my friend, with that small bit of text, just created billions of possible Bardic NPCs that range from annoying {speak in rhymes}, dangerous {spell casting + bardic music}, and ridiculous assassins wielding weapons-grade instruments +1 Drumsticks (of DOOM)

Suzuro
2008-05-12, 01:24 PM
Unfortunately, songs that require 'concentration' require that you use a standard action each turn, effectively negating the ability to fight or do anything while using them.


-Suzuro

Draz74
2008-05-12, 01:40 PM
Unfortunately, songs that require 'concentration' require that you use a standard action each turn, effectively negating the ability to fight or do anything while using them.

Fortunately, most Bard songs -- especially the combat buffs -- don't require "concentration."

Keld Denar
2008-05-12, 01:46 PM
Unfortunately, songs that require 'concentration' require that you use a standard action each turn, effectively negating the ability to fight or do anything while using them.


Fortunately, most of the ones that require concentration aren't the better ones. Inspire Courage is argueably the best bard song, and doesn't require concentration. Facinate does require concentration, but is not useable in combat, so the point is moot.

Keld Denar
2008-05-12, 03:12 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on my halfling knife juggler idea? I whipped it together in about 5 min, but the more I think back on it, the more I think it would be a fun character to play both mechanically and thematrically.

I picked strongheart halfling for the extra +3 to hit (+1 size, +1 racial, +1 dex mod) with thrown objects, but human would be acceptable as well.

holywhippet
2008-05-12, 04:02 PM
I prefer halflings as bards also. Give them decent DEX and the point blank shot feat then load them up with ranged projectiles - javelins, darts, knives etc. Even at level 1 they get a large bonus to hit. You could also give them a bow, but you lose your racial thrown bonus - slings work fine though.

In combat start singing in the first round then begin a ranged assault from behind the front line. Take the precise shot feat when you can to remove the shoot into melee penalty.

I'd avoid getting into melee as much as possible. Bards do not enjoy a particularly good AC as a rule.

pasko77
2008-05-13, 01:34 AM
Just a note, you don't have to stop singing to start fighting. As long as you don't need your voice for anything else (like spellcasting), you can just keep on singing as long as you like, while you fight. This could be important, if a battle lasts longer than five rounds.

Really?
It is nice to know the rules :)

Anyway, my bard has "perform - stringed instrument", so i assumed having my hands occupied the whole time while performing.

@Nexus-R.C._Mina: What is "Improved Trip"? If you can tell me what it does, i can search the book for the translation.

@lussmanj: I am Human - Bard 6, with the foretold talents. I was about to taking as a 6th level feat Improved Disarm, it is on hold, till i have advice.
Ps: i would never play a halfling... i would feel like Frodo :) i know it has lots of bonuses, i'm trying to valorize my choice of being medium-sized with the "disarm" tactics.

Finally, would you suggest to go warrior for a couple of levels? (or maybe, dunno, paladin of freedom)

Bye, Pasko

Keld Denar
2008-05-13, 12:04 PM
Really?
@lussmanj: I am Human - Bard 6, with the foretold talents. I was about to taking as a 6th level feat Improved Disarm, it is on hold, till i have advice.
Ps: i would never play a halfling... i would feel like Frodo :) i know it has lots of bonuses, i'm trying to valorize my choice of being medium-sized with the "disarm" tactics.


How much would your DM let you rebuild your character? You can do my build with human, all you lose is the +3 to hit, which matters little in the late game. Halfling just gives you a big boost up front to your thrown prowass. At the bare minimum, if you can take Dragonfire Inspiration(Dragon Magic), as well as take a couple measures to maximize your Inspire Courage ability (which DFI is based on) you'll be a very strong contributing party member.

Oh, and Improved Trip is in the PHB, about 2-3 feats after Improved Disarm. If you are going to go the disarm route, I'd suggest a Whip. You are proficient with it due to being a Bard, and it gets bonuses to Disarm, and can Disarm at a great range. Wield it with both hands(its 1handed, so you can choose to use both hands) and you'll have a +10 Disarm check before attack rolls are factored in (+4 feat, +4 2hands, +2 weapon).

quiet1mi
2008-05-13, 05:12 PM
can you really wield a whip with two hands ?what would that look like, because to me, it seems quite unwieldy.

Keld Denar
2008-05-13, 05:33 PM
can you really wield a whip with two hands ?what would that look like, because to me, it seems quite unwieldy.

Yes. By RAW, any weapon classified as "one handed" can be wielded in both hands. One handed is 1 size larger than light, and 1 size smaller than two handed. Check out the equipment section of the PHB, its right there in plain text. As for what it would look like...your guess is as good as mine. I'm not here to argue how dumb it looks (I'm in the pro-spiked chain camp) so actualize it however you feel.

Lycar
2008-05-13, 05:42 PM
Well, a whip is a one-handed weapon, not a light one. So by RAW it is legal to use it two-handed for all purposes.

Should look kinda odd though. Alternativly, try a polearm for size. Allows you to help from 10' distance too and comes in various flavours. A Guisarme allows trip attacks, a Ranseur gives +2 to disarm attempts instead.

Personally i'd go with the Guisarme, you can do both trips and disarms that way, more versatile. Then again, with a ranseur your chances of a successful disarm are greater.

A matter of style and taste really. And thanks to his Quickdraw ability, he can just hold it in his off hand and pull out knives and throw them as neccessary. Fun. :smallsmile:

Lycar

Cuddly
2008-05-13, 05:50 PM
I imagine wielding a whip two handed would look a lot like fly fishing.

pasko77
2008-05-14, 02:16 AM
Oh, and Improved Trip is in the PHB, about 2-3 feats after Improved Disarm.

eh, in english, maybe. You know, they're listed alphabetically :)
In italian the attribute comes after the name. Therefore you find "Disarm Improved" and "Trip Improved", so i don't have alphabetic clues. Anyway i found it myself, it is the feat that allows you to throw people on the ground. It didn't look great, since i wouldn't have the +4 of the two handed weapon and i may fall in the attempt.



If you are going to go the disarm route, I'd suggest a Whip. You are proficient with it due to being a Bard, and it gets bonuses to Disarm, and can Disarm at a great range. Wield it with both hands(its 1handed, so you can choose to use both hands) and you'll have a +10 Disarm check before attack rolls are factored in (+4 feat, +4 2hands, +2 weapon).


The idea is nice, but i feel cheesy, using a whip with two hands. I don't think it is the way the weapon is thought. And moreover i can't throw it. (i'm already drooling after a returning spear :) )

I will search for the Dragonfire Inspiration thing.

@Lycar: i'm not sure, but you listed martial weapons... i'm not able to use them. The spear is synergic with all my abilities. It is simple and can be thrown.



A matter of style and taste really. And thanks to his Quickdraw ability, he can just hold it in his off hand and pull out knives and throw them as neccessary. Fun.

True. I'll see what is a ranseur.

Thanks.

Lycar
2008-05-14, 04:25 AM
The idea is nice, but i feel cheesy, using a whip with two hands. I don't think it is the way the weapon is thought. And moreover i can't throw it. (i'm already drooling after a returning spear :) )

@Lycar: i'm not sure, but you listed martial weapons... i'm not able to use them. The spear is synergic with all my abilities. It is simple and can be thrown.

True, the longspear would be a terrific weapon for your bard. No need to take another one. It is just that these other weapons add options. But then again, you do not need an extra +2 to disarm and tripping is nice but not neccessary.

For the whip, just think of doing the actual whip lash with one hand and then, when it has wrapped around the foe's weapon, add your off hand for that extra boost to pull it out of your enemy's hand. :smallsmile:

As for martial weapons... well, if you need proficiency and maybe an extra feat:

Dip dip dip, dip into a level of fighter. :smalltongue:

Lycar