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View Full Version : Spellthieves: The ultimate jerks.



Feralgeist
2008-05-12, 11:07 AM
Could a spellthief theoretically steal spells using bluff to feint while out of combat? Example:

Spellthief walks up to wizard, who is buffed.
"Hey, my name's Jecht the jerk, how's it going?" -offers hand-

"greeting, i am Slarvel the sucker" the wizard replies, taking his hand.

(Spellthief, while hands are held) "Say, isn't that an odd sort of bird?" -gesturing behind the wizard-

-wizard glances over shoulder, is denied AC-

Spellthief clutches hand and concentrates, stealing both the wizards' finger of death AND his teleport spells.

"Lemme level with you I am an assassin" says the spell thief.

"EAT DEATH!" says wizard, only to find his spell gone.

-hoisted on his own petard.-(excuse spellling)
Spellthief teleports into the sunset and lives happily till TPK


Since you're not actually doing any of the sneak attack damage, it might be a way to steal spells or spell effects while you're all still diplomatic.

Any thoughts?

DrizztFan24
2008-05-12, 11:19 AM
pure....genious....unfortunately if I tried that my DM would inflict rule 0 on me... otherwise it sounds wonderfully deceptive, or deceptively wonderful.

But how many high elvel wizards prepare finger of death when in the market place?

Solo
2008-05-12, 11:26 AM
I predict someone will come along to congradulate you on being wonderfully right, or belerate you for being horribly wrong.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-12, 11:39 AM
Something tells me you can't wrench magical power from somebody's mind without them noticing...

By the rules, you either need a willing target, or a succesful sneak attack. The latter deals damage (yes, it deals 1d6 less, and it might be subdual, but it is nevertheless damage). Damage gets noticed.

Solo
2008-05-12, 11:42 AM
Something tells me you can't wrench magical power from somebody's mind without them noticing...

By the rules, you either need a willing target, or a succesful sneak attack. The latter deals damage (yes, it deals 1d6 less, and it might be subdual, but it is nevertheless damage). Damage gets noticed.

Maybe the spellthief just had a really strong handshake...

SoD
2008-05-12, 11:47 AM
But, as you give up 1d6 sneak attack damage, if you only use 1d6 sneak attack damage (presumable you don't have to use as many damage dice if you don't want too), and you loose that sneak attack damage...

xPANCAKEx
2008-05-12, 11:49 AM
just punch him in the back of the head - job done ;)

Aquillion
2008-05-12, 11:49 AM
Something tells me you can't wrench magical power from somebody's mind without them noticing...

By the rules, you either need a willing target, or a succesful sneak attack. The latter deals damage (yes, it deals 1d6 less, and it might be subdual, but it is nevertheless damage). Damage gets noticed.Isn't there a skill trick to keep your opponent from noticing the damage done by a light weapon? That could work...

SoD
2008-05-12, 11:52 AM
Isn't there a skill trick to keep your opponent from noticing the damage done by a light weapon? That could work...

It's called mosquito bite, and, from memory, it takes your opponant one round before they notice.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-12, 11:59 AM
Yup! Misquito's Bite mean that it's a 6 second delay before Batman goes "...Wait a minute.:smallannoyed:"

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-12, 12:01 PM
You could do this pretty easily. the way I would attempt this kind of attack is via the Mosquito's Bite skill trick (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5). It prevents the target from even noticing the damage, so I assume any spell drain would also escape notice as well. At least until the wizard tried to use the spell, anyway.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-12, 12:09 PM
Multi-ninja'ed! :smalltongue:

How would this work if the Batman had Foresight up, as they usually do with the Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop Combo? Wouldn't Batman be able to tell by his 'I'm never surprised or flat-footed' Spider-sense that foul play was afoot?

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-12, 12:17 PM
It's called mosquito bite, and, from memory, it takes your opponant one round before they notice.

Nothing like walking through the market getting spring attacked/pick-pocketed of your spells. Concealed weapons should also aid with this.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-12, 12:17 PM
Multi-ninja'ed! :smalltongue:

How would this work if the Batman had Foresight up, as they usually do with the Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop Combo? Wouldn't Batman be able to tell by his 'I'm never surprised or flat-footed' Spider-sense that foul play was afoot?

TIME PARADOX!judeblock

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-12, 12:35 PM
Multi-ninja'ed! :smalltongue:

How would this work if the Batman had Foresight up, as they usually do with the Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop Combo? Wouldn't Batman be able to tell by his 'I'm never surprised or flat-footed' Spider-sense that foul play was afoot?

The never flatfooted part would kill the sneak attack and therefore no steal spell. So the spell thief would need to be a tibbit with a cat familiar and flank the wizard (^_^).

quiet1mi
2008-05-12, 12:57 PM
How does mosquito bite work? Would he effectively punch the guy in the back of the head, for the sneak attack, and the wizard would not notice the damage? Would he even notice that he took a punch to the back of the head?

The Necroswanso
2008-05-12, 01:08 PM
The idea, while funny and clever, is implemented in a rather, shall we say unrealistic way, even for D&D. Maybe it's just me, but every time a stranger in game wants to randomly meet and shake my hand, I always roll a sense motive afterwards.
It's probably best to just smack him in the back of the head, and when he turns around to finger of death you, you respond in kind.

Riffington
2008-05-12, 02:59 PM
You don't need feint- since the guy isn't expecting you to hit him he's flat footed (not in rounds so hasn't acted yet).
You can do an unarmed attack to elbow him in a crowd, and hopefully he won't notice who it was.
If you have enough bluff you can probably just bump into him hard and he won't notice anything except that you're clumsy and it vaguely hurt. If you have the skill trick it becomes even easier. "Oh, I think someone bumped into me".

Craig1f
2008-05-12, 03:35 PM
How does mosquito bite work? Would he effectively punch the guy in the back of the head, for the sneak attack, and the wizard would not notice the damage? Would he even notice that he took a punch to the back of the head?

The wizard would interpret it exactly the same as if the punch had missed. So, he would probably be like "wtf, why'd you try to punch me?"

Often, a target isn't even aware an attack has occurred if it missed. But this really all ends up being DM interpretation.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 04:00 PM
You don't need feint- since the guy isn't expecting you to hit him he's flat footed (not in rounds so hasn't acted yet).
You can do an unarmed attack to elbow him in a crowd, and hopefully he won't notice who it was.
If you have enough bluff you can probably just bump into him hard and he won't notice anything except that you're clumsy and it vaguely hurt. If you have the skill trick it becomes even easier. "Oh, I think someone bumped into me".

Sorry, flatfootedness only exists in combat. Characters are flatfooted in the time between when Initiative is rolled and their first action (and when another character's ability makes them so).
Similarily, if you're trying to attack someone, initiative gets rolled.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-12, 04:40 PM
Surprise round.

Riffington
2008-05-12, 07:17 PM
Like AnimeFunkMaster said. If someone has no reason to suspect they will be attacked, they do not roll initiative. Once they become aware they have been attacked, initiative is rolled. Aside from barbarians/etc, people spend most of their day flatfooted.

That said: a spellthief who picks a nobleman's pocket has a much better chance of survival than one who picks a wizard's brain. What if the wizard rolls well on Sense Motive, and decides to respond forcefully to your larceny... dead spellthief.

Spellthief is a cool character *outside* of real combat. Once they get in a fight, they're screwed.

Waffles
2008-05-12, 07:23 PM
Obviously you punch him in the back of the head, steal his spells(without him knowing), run away and use disguise self to make yourself look like somebody else, then keep doing the same thing like four times.

By the fifth time of someone tapping him on the head he's gonna turn around and whip a disintegrate against whoever just him him- Only to find that it's gone.

Ta da!

Inhuman Bot
2008-05-12, 07:27 PM
Can someone explain what a batman wizard it? aside from broken, that is.

FlyMolo
2008-05-12, 07:30 PM
pure....genious....unfortunately if I tried that my DM would inflict rule 0 on me... otherwise it sounds wonderfully deceptive, or deceptively wonderful.

But how many high elvel wizards prepare finger of death when in the market place?

Oh yeah, it sounds silly. Until you need it. I figure, exactly the number who have ever needed it, minus the number who didn't have it. :smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2008-05-12, 07:32 PM
Can someone explain what a batman wizard it? aside from broken, that is.
The Batman is the guy that always has the right tool for the job at hand. The Wizard can about the best at it, but some other classes can pull it off, too.

That's a quick summery. Basically, take a wizard. Load him up with combat control, buffs, and Save or Lose spells, then a copy of his entire (very large) spellbook in scroll form in a Handy Haversack, with Wands of the more common ones. Whatever the challenge, he's a move and standard action away from solving it (if it can be solved with one spell, which is generally the case).

Just Alex
2008-05-12, 07:35 PM
Can someone explain what a batman wizard it? aside from broken, that is.

Assuming you're familiar with the super hero, the batman wizard works the same. He studies, plans things out, and takes care of things. It's batman's job to know what will happen and have the right aerosol spray can in his utility belt to fix it.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-12, 07:36 PM
Can someone explain what a batman wizard it? aside from broken, that is.

It's what happens when a bored gamer, with a respectable IQ and a "coven" of likeminded peers, gets to crunching numbers and making what amounts to a style of playing a wizard that (in spirit) behaves much like the comic book hero. The perfect spell for every occation and all that rot. Essentially, it's as powerful as powerful gets without contorting the rules in unnatural ways (usually).

FlyMolo
2008-05-12, 07:36 PM
pure....genious....unfortunately if I tried that my DM would inflict rule 0 on me... otherwise it sounds wonderfully deceptive, or deceptively wonderful.

But how many high elvel wizards prepare finger of death when in the market place?

Oh yeah, it sounds silly. Until you need it. I figure, exactly the number who have ever needed it, minus the number who didn't have it. :smallwink:

Chronos
2008-05-12, 08:30 PM
Obviously you punch him in the back of the head, steal his spells(without him knowing), run away and use disguise self to make yourself look like somebody else, then keep doing the same thing like four times.Do not, under any circumstances, use Disguise Self to try to hide from a wizard. His first step will be to use Detect Magic to scan the crowd to see who has a magical aura, which will narrow it down to a very small number of people. You don't want to be narrowed down to a very small number of people. His second step will be to use True Seeing or something of the sort to see through a Disguise Self spell. You don't want your disguise to be seen through. It's much better to just use a mundane disguise, even if it takes longer.

...Huh. And I only just now notice that Disguise isn't on the Spellthief's class skill list.

Riffington
2008-05-12, 08:31 PM
then a copy of his entire (very large) spellbook in scroll form in a Handy Haversack, with Wands of the more common ones.

This is another important point. The Spellthief might be better off stealing items (Sleight of Hand vs Spot) than stealing spells (an actual attack). Of course, no matter how you try it, robbing wizards is a high-mortality affair.

quiet1mi
2008-05-12, 10:14 PM
wow i just noticed that they have the same save progression as wizards....how lame

also i noticed that wizards are not normally good at sensing motives:[not a class skill,wisdom is usually close to dump]