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Sholos
2008-05-12, 01:54 PM
I'm looking to disabuse someone of the notion that Warlocks are broken while Wizards are not. His argument is that Warlocks can use their invocations and blast all day long, have a better hit die, can wear armor, and have damage reduction, all things that Wizards do not [start out with]. My argument is the general idea that, while ranged touch attacks (with possible status effects) are nice, the plethora of Save-or-die/suck spells available to the Wizard (not to mention the Polymorph and associated spells) are worse. I even limited the spell selection to the Core and the Completes.

Now, this argument is in two parts. One part is the general overall brokenness in normal play. I.e. - who's more useful in the field. Now, I'll admit that if the DM keeps the party from resting the Warlock will pull ahead quickly, but I don't tend to consider that normal play.

The other part is an arena-style fight between a Warlock and a Wizard, no prep time (I guess meaning no buffs starting for either?). He argues that the Warlock will win at any level. I argue that the Wizard is much more likely to win, and the odds go more in the Wizard's favor the higher level the characters.

So, who's right, and why? Remember, nothing outside of the Completes and Core can be used. No races not in the PHB or the completes (nothing from the MM, for example, unless it's in one of the Completes as well). For the fight, it'd be nice if the characters were not specifically designed to counter each other (i.e. not designed against the other's race, spell/invocation selection, magic item selection, etc.); just keep it to basics, please.

I'm also interested in seeing how bad Warlocks can get, even though I'm positive that Wizards outstrip them by far.

Thanks!

Chronos
2008-05-12, 02:08 PM
The only real advantage that the Warlock gets is that he never runs out of "spells". This is admittedly a pretty big deal, at level 1 or 2. But at moderately high levels, the wizard never runs out of spells, either. The game is supposedly designed for about four equal-CR encounters per day, and a wizard gets 3 or 4 spells per day at his highest spell level. This means that for each encounter, the wizard can spend one max-level spell, which is likely to turn the tide of the battle, and then if needed mop up using lower-level spells (or just let the rest of the party do it). Plus, many of the wizard's spells are long-duration buffs, such that a single casting will suffice for many encounters, and you sometimes see a day with only one, big encounter (on which the wizard can blow all of his high-level spells and go nova, an option which the warlock doesn't have). The only scenario where the warlock has a chance to compare to the wizard is if you encounter a whole lot of weaker monsters, a few at a time, and even there, the wizard can keep up if he takes a reserve feat or two (Complete Mage, I think).

In fact, reserve feats are a pretty good counterargument all by themselves. A wizard with a reserve feat can blast all day long, too, with generally about the same damage as the warlock, and he also has the option of casting spells as well.

Duke of URL
2008-05-12, 02:15 PM
Is this even a serious post?

The Wizard will beat the boop out of the Warlock, hands-down, every time, with competent players involved. Maybe, just maybe, at the lowest levels, the Warlock can hang with the Wizard long enough to outlast him, but after level 5 or so, no way.

On the scale of "brokenness" or power, Wizards are "TEH BROKEN" and Warlocks are "slightly underpowered". And I say this as someone who likes playing Warlocks.

The Warlock may not have to worry about "per day" stuff, but his invocations are correspondingly weaker than the wizard's spells, whereas the latter should have enough "save or suck" spells to make the Warlock squeal like a little girl.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-12, 02:16 PM
In normal play, the Wizard is far more powerful if he gets his sleep. And, what with Rope Trick and such, he will get his sleep. The only situation in which a Warlock outclasses a Wizard is one where the Wizard runs out of spells and really needs to keep going.

In an arena battle, the Warlock could win at low levels, since the Wizard doesn't have many spells per day yet and the Warlock's higher HD can help him. But, since they have so few hit points at that level, who wins is largely a matter of luck. At high levels, the Wizard has way more options than the Warlock, and way more powerful options. He can buff himself to the point that the Warlock can't hurt him and then go nova on him. Or just go nova on him in the first few rounds with save-or-dies.

Eldariel
2008-05-12, 02:17 PM
Warlock deals damage. Wizard does everything. Warlock compares better to an archer than a Wizard. Wizard does indeed lack in longterm capabilities, but general guideline is 4-5 encounters per day. Wizard can solve them with few lower-than-max level spells, while Warlock is just adding to the general damage output of the party like any poor glass cannon. Warlock indeed has advantages, such as permanent flight (costs Wizard a high level slot) and reusable abilities, but Warlock doesn't get (short list):
Shapechange (become anything at will, such as something with Su Wish (repeatedly to reuse it), something with high level Cleric casting, some with infinite SLAs, so on, and something with tons of Natural Attacks, Grapple, etc. to last REALLY long)
Polymorph Any Object (cast twice, you can pretty much permanently become anything)
Polymorph (you just need to be an Outsider through Otherworldly feat or some low LA race to get the truly abusable forms this early)
Alter Self (level 2, you get a crapton of flight)
Time Stop (infinite actions)
Enervation (the real, truly metamagickable deal)
Celerity
Haste, Fly (castable on others), etc.

Basically, all the abusable spells are Wizard's spells. You can quite easily become a Balor at higher levels, for example, while retaining your casting. Sure, Wizard has lower Hit Die, but that's hardly an issue when your defensive spells (starting from the humble Mirror Image, ending in stuff like Prismatic Sphere) make you nigh' invincible. You'll have enough HP to make up for that. 10 min/day buffs with Extend Spell start to last long enough on higher levels and that's without abusing metamagic and classes to get 9th level spells Persisted. On lower levels, you won't be buffing, you'll be casting save-or-do nothings, or even no save do nothings (á la Grease). Warlock will always contend with HP and often even with SR if he wants to do anything interesting. Also, Touch AC is a bane for Warlock. They are very limited in their arts.

Kyeudo
2008-05-12, 02:20 PM
Well, I run the local PvP Arena and we have actualy had several Wizard vs Warlock matches, albeit at 1st and 2nd level only. This is arguably when the Wizard is at his weakest and the Warlock has the most advantage over the Wizard. It still didn't go well for the Warlock.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 02:23 PM
Well, I run the local PvP Arena and we have actualy had several Wizard vs Warlock matches, albeit at 1st and 2nd level only. This is arguably when the Wizard is at his weakest and the Warlock has the most advantage over the Wizard. It still didn't go well for the Warlock.

I can't imagine it would. The low-level Warlock is just fine in games, but in an arena? The wizard wins initiative and Color Sprays; the barbarian wins initiative, rages, and smashes; the Warlock can't one-shot his opposition.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-12, 02:25 PM
The wizard wins initiative and Color Sprays;

Who told you my strategy?! :smallcool:

Reel On, Love
2008-05-12, 02:32 PM
Who told you my strategy?! :smallcool:

Captain Obvious did.

valadil
2008-05-12, 02:34 PM
There's a very easy way to see who is better in an arena fight. Have an arena fight. You can be the wizard and your friend can be the warlock. It might be useful to make characters at various power levels like 1, 5, 10, and 15.

I think it would also be a good idea to have a standard adventure to compare the wizard and warlock though. Just make a party minus arcane. Roll up a rogue, cleric, and fighter. The wizard and warlock can take turns with the party running through three or four encounters that make up the average day. I'd highly suggest using the same builds that you do in the arena, otherwise you'll end up comparing arena builds instead of realistic builds.

In both cases, my money is on the wizard.

You friend makes the argument that a warlock rocks because he gets to make ranged touch attacks all day. Has it occurred to him that a fighter gets to make regular attacks all day? Sure you don't get the range of a ranged touch attack, but you have a charge action for covering distances and heavy armor proficiency to handle the hazards of close combat. What does the warlock do if he gets stuck in close combat? Hope the enemy lets up for an hour and a half until the Eldritch Blasts start having an effect?

Craig1f
2008-05-12, 03:44 PM
This is sort of a silly post. Warlocks are awesome, because they can always be doing something. Wizards are awesome, because when they do something, it's BIG.

Warlock powers are about half as useful as a Wizard's. They just get to use those powers constantly. Wizards, on the other time, very often have to "sit back and let the fighters take care of things" since minor encounters are not worth their effort.

There are campaign styles that will allow a Warlock to shine. Most DMs don't like to pressure players too much. They usually give them plenty of time to sleep. However, a recent game I played pretty much had us on a clock. Enemies were aware of us, and trying to stop us. They'd continually attack us at night, in the safety of a city, during my character's prayer time (midnight, Selune). This would deny me a chance to recover spells. It would also irritate arcane magic users. And given that we were pressed for time, it complicated things a lot.

Fortunately, I was an Eldritch Disciple, and had warlock powers, so even when I ran out of spells, I could keep going. This came in handy, since I was prevented from praying for spells at least three times.

In the end, we missed the window to save the Queen from assassination by about 8 hours. If we'd moved along just once instead of resting and recovering spells, we'd have prevented the assassination (assuming we'd have still won the battles, which is doubtful, because they were very difficult).

However, in most games, DMs seem to like to give players a lot of time to rest, not disturb them during prayer time, and not give them more than 1 or 2 encounters a day. In those games, Wizards own.

Kyeudo
2008-05-12, 03:47 PM
the barbarian wins initiative, rages, and smashes; the Warlock can't one-shot his opposition.

Actualy, Warlocks tend to beat Barbarians, as they use Spider Climb to stay out of the barbarians reach.

Craig1f
2008-05-12, 04:01 PM
Actualy, Warlocks tend to beat Barbarians, as they use Spider Climb to stay out of the barbarians reach.

My Barbarian has a few levels of ranger, and will just rapid shot you for 1d8+9 damage per arrow. (STR 8 bow. +5 for half-orc at the start, +1 for being above level 8, +1 for an item, +1 for three levels of half-orc paragon. Rawr)

But yeah, Barbarians function best if they are buffed by a capable ally. A hasted barbarian who has see invisibility cast on him is pretty deadly. A lone barbarian is pretty lame after round one.

Sholos
2008-05-12, 04:45 PM
My Barbarian has a few levels of ranger, and will just rapid shot you for 1d8+9 damage per arrow. (STR 8 bow. +5 for half-orc at the start, +1 for being above level 8, +1 for an item, +1 for three levels of half-orc paragon. Rawr)

But yeah, Barbarians function best if they are buffed by a capable ally. A hasted barbarian who has see invisibility cast on him is pretty deadly. A lone barbarian is pretty lame after round one.

Yeah, but at that level the Warlock has more than just Spider Climb available.

Charlie Kemek
2008-05-12, 06:18 PM
My Barbarian has a few levels of ranger, and will just rapid shot you for 1d8+9 damage per arrow. (STR 8 bow. +5 for half-orc at the start, +1 for being above level 8, +1 for an item, +1 for three levels of half-orc paragon. Rawr)

But yeah, Barbarians function best if they are buffed by a capable ally. A hasted barbarian who has see invisibility cast on him is pretty deadly. A lone barbarian is pretty lame after round one.

*uses baeful utterence (shatter) on Longbow (and all the weapons)*

The only way for a warlock to win is to destroy the spell-book, and fight with gorilla warfare, (Invisibility, fly, DD+MI, etc.), and snipe down on the wizard's HP.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-12, 06:25 PM
They'd continually attack us at night, in the safety of a city, during my character's prayer time (midnight, Selune). This would deny me a chance to recover spells. It would also irritate arcane magic users. And given that we were pressed for time, it complicated things a lot.

Fortunately, I was an Eldritch Disciple, and had warlock powers, so even when I ran out of spells, I could keep going. This came in handy, since I was prevented from praying for spells at least three times.
Umm....

Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.(Emphasis added)
If a divine caster is interrupted during prayer time, the divine caster just gets right back to it immediately at no penalty (other than the "recently cast" limit on preparing spells).

But yeah, Barbarians function best if they are buffed by a capable ally. A hasted barbarian who has see invisibility cast on him is pretty deadly. A lone barbarian is pretty lame after round one.
See Invisibility is a personal spell. It takes a little doing to cast it on someone else (Lesser Ring of Spell Storing - and at that, it's still technically the barbarian casting it when it takes effect). True Seeing isn't a personal spell, though, and covers much the same function.

Edit: As for the OP...
If you permit the Reserve Feats (Complete Mage), then you can build a Wizard who isn't limited by the number of encounters in a day. If I build a Wizard like, oh...

Level-1: Heighten Spell
Level-3: Fiery Burst
Wizard-5: Extend Spell
Level-6: Whatever. Maybe Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, or Craft Magic Arms and Armor. My Reserve Build generally puts Dimensional Reach here, just because it's funny. An alternate damage type reserve feat wouldn't be amiss.
Level-9: Summon Elemental
Wizard-10: Minor Shapeshift
Level-12: Dimensional Jaunt
Level-15+: Whatever. Maybe more item creation feats?

Now, assuming he prepares spells to make use of it, at 12th, he can:
Find pretty much all traps not designed specifically against the tactic without a roll. Permanency Arcane Sight, and you see all magical traps (well, of those not specifically built against the tactic). Have a Medium Earth Elemental from Summon Elemental run everywhere in front of you, and find all mundane traps.
Kill traps (Burn them! BURN THEM ALL! - and if they don't burn, have a series of elementals pound at it for a while)
Open Doors (Burn them! BURN THEM ALL! - and if they don't burn, have a series of elementals pound at it for a while)
Escape grapples without a roll (Dimensional Jaunt requires no concentration check, and has no components, as it's a Su ability).
Have remarkable resilience (swift-action temp HP equal to character level, renewable each round).
Rest whenever he feels like it (Extended Rope Trick - can skip Extend if starting past level 9)
Do regular wizard save or X type stuff.

Edit 2:


The only way for a warlock to win is to destroy the spell-book, and fight with gorilla warfare, (Invisibility, fly, DD+MI, etc.), and snipe down on the wizard's HP.
If you allow the Magic Item Compendium, or Dungeon Magazine, there's a weapon property that will technically permit a Wizard with the Summon Elemental reserve feat to heal himself indefinitely... (Vampiric, +2 equivalent, actually heals the user, rather than granting temp HP).

Also, if the Wizard can Permanency Arcane Sight or See Invisibility, the warlock has issues with hiding.

FMArthur
2008-05-12, 10:10 PM
Gorilla warfare?

http://blogs.the-review.com/leftofcybercenter/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/kong-14.jpg

FlyMolo
2008-05-12, 10:19 PM
Well, I run the local PvP Arena and we have actualy had several Wizard vs Warlock matches, albeit at 1st and 2nd level only. This is arguably when the Wizard is at his weakest and the Warlock has the most advantage over the Wizard. It still didn't go well for the Warlock.

QFT. I was the warlock. Shatter, high AC, optimized DR. Got owned.

There's one build with HipS and Darkness that's clever. That guy does alright. Rolled a hide check of one and still beat the other guys spot.

Aquillion
2008-05-12, 10:29 PM
The only way for a warlock to win is to destroy the spell-book, and fight with gorilla warfare, (Invisibility, fly, DD+MI, etc.), and snipe down on the wizard's HP.All sorts of prolbems with that. Destroying their spellbook won't erase the spells in their memory; it'll just make them angry. (And beyond the first few levels -- where the warlock should have at least some chance anyway -- there's a good chance that they have a Blessed Book, which is magical and therefore immune to shatter.)

Their spell component pouch would be a better target, but as an attended item it'll get their will save, which is going to be hard for you to beat. And even if you beat it, nothing stops a wizard from either carrying multiple pouches (they're dirt cheap, and the wizard can have several in bags of holding or whatever), getting a pouch with a minor enchantment on it so it can't be shattered (any enchantment will do, the point is shatter won't work on any magical items), or both.

In the cases where the target item is magical, you can try to dispel it and then shatter it, but in that case it gets their will save twice and you've wasted two actions at close enough range for them to target you with spells, which probably means you're dead or otherwise in trouble. And even if you manage to shatter their spell component pouch, there are several spells that don't require components; they're probably still going to be able to teleport away at the very least, and possibly even beat you. Since spell component pouches are easy to replace, the worst you'll have done is inconvenience them.

Shatter is great, but it's mostly great on weapons and armor, because a lot of the classes that depend most heavily on weapons and armor have low will saves. It becomes less great as you start to encounter opponents using magical equipment, but can still be a nice utility spell.

...despite all this, warlocks make a fairly decent anti-caster class because of their ability to throw around dispels at will. They're just not very good at fighting casters alone.

But how did we end up talking about PVP, anyway? It's silly. D&D isn't a PVP game. Actually, PVP puts warlocks at a huge disadvantage, because 'going nova' is much more useful in a single PVP fight than it is over a campaign with several encounters a day. Not that warlocks beat wizards even then by most measures, of course, but PVP puts the warlock in an even worse situation. Even a 10th level wizard specialist with decent int is going to have about 30 spells memorized -- no PVP fight is going to last long enough to risk using up those.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-12, 11:13 PM
UM, Aquillion, I don't think Shatter gives an item, even an attended one, a will save. And I know for a fact that dispel magic sure as well doesn't.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-12, 11:23 PM
Level 1: Warlock gets Dark One's Own Luck to boost his Will save to counter the two Save or Loose 1st level spells (Sleep and Color Spray). Wizard grabs a Heavy Crossbow and True Strike. Dead 'lock.

Level 5: Warlock has three least invocations. No lesser invocations yet. Wizards, on the other hand, get their first 3rd level spell. Let's look at his choices. Assuming he wants to embarass the 'lock and let loose with a Lightning Bolt for 5d6 (ref for half), which will likely one-shot the lock. Or, he could Stinking Cloud and prey on the Lock's poor Fort save. Other than that, Glitterdust is a good one, Will save or Blind, Mirror Image to ensure he won't get hit by an EB, and if we're getting REALLY cheezy, Alter Self.

Level 10: By now the Wizard can be considered to have some buffs on at the beginning of combat, because the duration is hours/level, which is by now 10 hours, which is an average adventuring day. So, that means he has at LEAST Mage Armor up, which WILL protect against EB, but the killer here is Split Ray Enervation, which does 2d4 negative levels, backed up by a regular Enervation for the killing shot. Don't even bother with Phantasmal Killer, although that'll probably work too. The Wizard also gets access to Polymorph by now too, which can be it's own form of gouda. There is no way a 'Lock can win here.

Level 15. Lock has some decent stuff, including negative levels with his Utterdark Blast, but the Wizard is really hitting his stride with 8th level spells. Time for PAO cheeze, if you're going that route, Finger of Death for a Fort Save or Die, Irresistable Dance if you want to close (with Quickened True Strike to make sure it lands). If he wants to show the 'Lock how to blast, he can always pop a Polar Ray, which will probably one-round a 'lock. Empowered Split Ray Enervation followed up by a Quickened Enervation also makes for a fun combo.

Level 20. Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. Use the action from Celerity to cast Sudden Maximized Time Stop. You have four rounds. If you cannot kill one lock in that time, you don't deserve to play a Wizard. For sheer 'I can blast better than you' sake, 4 DBF's. There's also Forcecage/Cloudkill/Dimension Lock (although this is subject to dispelling). Also available by this time are Titan Chains, PAO Abuse, FORESIGHT (to ensure you go first), the many abuses of Gate that don't involve Titans (such as the Balor Bomb), and anything else you'd like to use.

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 12:10 AM
Level 1: Warlock gets Dark One's Own Luck to boost his Will save to counter the two Save or Loose 1st level spells (Sleep and Color Spray). Wizard grabs a Heavy Crossbow and True Strike. Dead 'lock.
Heavy Crossbow isn't all that likely to kill a Warlock in one hit (most will have 7-9 hp, so there's only about a 20% chance for the first bolt to drop him), and True Strike gives the Warlock an extra round to Eldritch Blast. I'd call this a tie at best, with your strategy. My strategy would be Summon Swarm, which has a solid chance of Nausiating and will kill most lvl1 Wizards in a round or two anyway.


Level 5: Warlock has three least invocations. No lesser invocations yet. Wizards, on the other hand, get their first 3rd level spell. Let's look at his choices. Assuming he wants to embarass the 'lock and let loose with a Lightning Bolt for 5d6 (ref for half), which will likely one-shot the lock. Or, he could Stinking Cloud and prey on the Lock's poor Fort save. Other than that, Glitterdust is a good one, Will save or Blind, Mirror Image to ensure he won't get hit by an EB, and if we're getting REALLY cheezy, Alter Self.
5d6 has almost no chance of one-shotting a Warlock at that level, unless he's got horrid Constitution. Even with Con 10, the max HP from first level shifts the balance towards him surviving, even if he fails his save (which is no sure thing by a longshot). Stinking Cloud and Glitterdust do work, but lvl5 is a bit of a low point for most Warlocks, and a high point for most Wizards, so this isn't really a fair challenge. Still, Summon Swarm is a totally viable strategy at this level as well, especially if the Wizard tries to get Mirror Image and Alter Self up, neither of which does diddlysquat against a Swarm.

lvl10/15/20.... yeah, the exponential power curve kicks in and Wizards dominate due to Nova if nothing else. I'm not a fan of high-level Warlocks, myself.

Chronos
2008-05-13, 01:28 AM
So, that means he has at LEAST Mage Armor up, which WILL protect against EBOnly if the warlock is using Hideous Blow. Touch attacks ignore armor bonuses. Mage Armor is an armor bonus.

And my strategy for a wizard at level 3rd-5th would be to lead off with Web (centered a little in front of the warlock), to prevent him from getting anything requiring line of effect on me. If I won initiative, great, and if the warlock won initiative, I spend the next turn getting out of and well away from his swarm. Once that's taken care of, I summon monsters into the web.

Aquillion
2008-05-13, 01:38 AM
UM, Aquillion, I don't think Shatter gives an item, even an attended one, a will save. And I know for a fact that dispel magic sure as well doesn't.
Whoops. You're right about dispel magic... but no, Shatter always gives an item a saving throw if it's entitled to one at all (which usually just means attended items -- unattended non-magical items don't get saving throws at all.)

It is:

Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text(The fortitude half is for damage to crystal creatures, as described in the text. The rest is for objects.)

The rules for saving throws state:
(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.
In other words, to shatter the fighter's sword, you have to beat his will save; to shatter the mage's spell component pouch, you have to beat his will save, and so on.


Level 1: Warlock gets Dark One's Own Luck to boost his Will save to counter the two Save or Loose 1st level spells (Sleep and Color Spray). Wizard grabs a Heavy Crossbow and True Strike. Dead 'lock.This depends. If the Warlock acts first, they could possibly one-shot a wizard who has less than +2 con. If they're starting at decent range, they might be able to kill the wizard with eldritch spear before the wizard can kill them with true strikes (and they'll be out of range of those save or lose spells, so they don't need Dark One's Own Luck.)

In fact, they might beat the crossbow anyway -- it takes a standard action to cast True Strike, and the Warlock has a decent chance to survive the first hit, especially with a few points of con bonus. Conversely, even with a few points of con bonus, the wizard has a decent chance of being dropped if they eat more than one blast... which is going to be a big risk if they're fighting at long range, only attacking every other turn (by casting true strike), and using attacks that might not kill the Warlock in one hit.

If they're at long range and roll a 1-5 for their first crossbow attack, the wizard is almost certainly dead. They'll have already eaten a blast to cast True Strike, they're going to eat another one for their failed crossbow attack, and next turn they're probably not going to have anything capable of hurting the warlock at that range (except True Strike, which would give the warlock an almost certainly deadly third attack.)

At closer range it's more dicey, because the wizard has more reliable ways of doing damage -- but they're still going to have a hard time avoiding taking at least one blast, and two if the warlock wins initiative. Not so good.

At other levels the wizard is likely to win, but at 1st and 2nd it's not so easy.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 02:38 AM
At first level, if the Warlock isn't built specifically against the Wizard, powering through the Will save is your best bet. Even if the lock is, it's still probably the best bet. Alternatively, Magic Missile is the next best, with an average damage equal to the locks blast but without a touch attack. Yes if you are a jerk and start the fight 250ft away with no cover the Warlock is going to win. But if you start them both 5ft away and chained to the ground a Barbarians got a pretty damn good shot against anyone.

If the Warlock isn't Dark Ones Luck, then he's probably got a +1 save mod, if he is Dark One, he's still got only a +4. If he pumps Wisdom to 18 (not going to happen) then he's looking at +9. Compare all those to a DC 17 Sleep or Color Spray.

A level 1 Wizard who focuses on just that, goes Grey Elf for more Dex and Int, and just throws down those every fight is going to win really really often against most classes. Compared to a Warlock who blows his only invocation on a 15% chance less of dieing against a single specific foe. And that's not counting the fact that Eldritch Blasts are nothing like sure hits against a Wizard who gets a decent Dex. You don't have a BAB, so you are looking at straight opposed Dex checks with the Wizard taking ten. That's going to fail more often then the sleep spell.

Rutee
2008-05-13, 03:01 AM
At first level, if the Warlock isn't built specifically against the Wizard, powering through the Will save is your best bet. Even if the lock is, it's still probably the best bet. Alternatively, Magic Missile is the next best, with an average damage equal to the locks blast but without a touch attack. Yes if you are a jerk and start the fight 250ft away with no cover the Warlock is going to win. But if you start them both 5ft away and chained to the ground a Barbarians got a pretty damn good shot against anyone.

If the Warlock isn't Dark Ones Luck, then he's probably got a +1 save mod, if he is Dark One, he's still got only a +4. If he pumps Wisdom to 18 (not going to happen) then he's looking at +9. Compare all those to a DC 17 Sleep or Color Spray.

Oh, so we're playing the game where only one person optimizes.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 03:54 AM
Oh, so we're playing the game where only one person optimizes.

No, we are playing the game where someone else suggested taking Dark ones Luck as an invocation, and I showed that not only is that only going to help against Wizards, it's also not going to help as much as a decent offensive invocation would.

Chronos
2008-05-13, 01:07 PM
Oh, so we're playing the game where only one person optimizes.To be fair, in the next paragraph he says that he's talking about a wizard built exclusively for will save-or-lose, which is a pretty good tactic overall for a low-level arena wizard. It's actually less effective versus warlocks than against most opponents (since warlocks have good Will save progression), whereas the warlock taking Dark One's Own Luck is optimizing specifically for a wizard opponent.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 08:20 PM
Honestly, the best way to defeat Will save or lose is to be an elf, and do your damage from range (also make sure you have a realistic way of staying outside Color Spray range). That's a hell of a lot more effective then optimizing your will save progression in most cases, and it doesn't involve blowing your only invocation and points into Wis.

Though I guess the best will modifier at level 1 is going to be an anthropomorphic Bat Warlock with Dark Ones Luck, Iron Will, and a Wisdom of 24. So that's +14. So you only fail one a 1 and 2. Of course against anything but a Wizard you are pretty sucky.