Gate speculation

[d'Bwobsling]

Shojo says that the order of the scrible found 5 rifts and sealed them, but what if there were more rifts that they never discovered and wern't sealed?
Just a thought...

[Azrooh]

Because the world would have asploded by now.

[TheElfLord]

Not unnecessarily. Even with some gates destroyed, the remainder still can keep the Snarl in check, the hold just gets weaker each time. Lilrin's gate has been gone for what, 30 years now (I think) and the world hasn't ended. There could easily be 1 or 2 undiscovered rifts out there.

[David Argall]

The gates have no connection to each other. Each is a different lock on a different door. Whether one or all are destroyed, it is possible for the Snarl to escape, without damaging any remaining gates.

Now it seems clear the Snarl still has difficulties in escaping [possibly because the rifts were sealed, and the gates were added to keep the seals in place, so if the seals are still in place, the Snarl still can't escape, in the short run.], but from what we know, the only reason the Snarl won't escape until the final gate is plot cliche.

[NerfTW]

The gates have no connection to each other. Each is a different lock on a different door. Whether one or all are destroyed, it is possible for the Snarl to escape, without damaging any remaining gates.

Now it seems clear the Snarl still has difficulties in escaping [possibly because the rifts were sealed, and the gates were added to keep the seals in place, so if the seals are still in place, the Snarl still can't escape, in the short run.], but from what we know, the only reason the Snarl won't escape until the final gate is plot cliche.

You're stating a lot of "facts" that are just your opinion. They haven't stated anything about each gate being seperate from the others. For all we know, the gates are connected, and require all five to be open before the Snarl knows it can escape.

[Beholder1995]

I don't know... the Order of the Scribble spent a lot of time searching for the gates- enough time that by the end they were epic characters. Chances are they found all the rifts. Although I wonder if there might have been any rifts underwater.....

[someonenonotyou]

i couse be but highly un likey someone would have found it by now and sealed it or used it to abtain total cosmical power

[David Argall]

They haven't stated anything about each gate being seperate from the others. For all we know, the gates are connected, and require all five to be open before the Snarl knows it can escape.
Note the "for all we know". We can translate this to "it isn't utterly impossible". You are not presenting any evidence that there is a connection, merely saying it has not been proved that there is not.

As to evidence We start with SoD The Dark one is only aware of one gate. He deems that entirely adequate for his purposes, which means he believes that one gate is quite sufficient to release the Snarl. If we assume a connection between gates, he probably should been aware of the other gates, and that the warping of this one gate was insufficient for his purposes.

Similarly, in our first book, Xykon and Redcloak act as if this one gate is entirely sufficient for their evil plans. They make no effort to find the other gates until the dungeon gate is destroyed. They concentrate on the one gate.
Since then they have concentrated on the one gate of Azure City, and intend to concentrate on one of the two remaining gates next. They consistently act and speak as if the gate are not connected.

We can also look at the basic model. These are tears in reality. You have 5 tears in your shirt, you put 5 patches on it. The patches are not connected, and whether one falls off doesn't affect the others. We just have no sign any of these are connected.

[Mauve Shirt]

The gates have no connection to each other. Each is a different lock on a different door. Whether one or all are destroyed, it is possible for the Snarl to escape, without damaging any remaining gates.

Now it seems clear the Snarl still has difficulties in escaping [possibly because the rifts were sealed, and the gates were added to keep the seals in place, so if the seals are still in place, the Snarl still can't escape, in the short run.], but from what we know, the only reason the Snarl won't escape until the final gate is plot cliche.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html
Redcloak's statement in the second panel. What if the gates that remain keep the snarl from noticing the open rifts? That's why, supposedly, it hasn't escaped yet. They are connected. The snarl won't escape until the last gate is opened because of plot power, yes, but also because the snarl won't notice it can get out until every gate is destroyed.
According to Redcloak's theory.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I like this theory... The unknown "one more quest" makes sense to the plot line. Roy and Co. defeat Xykon at the fifth and "final" gate, then have to race to defeat the Snarl at a sixth rift, without the safety features of a gate to assist in holding the Snarl back.

The Bigger Badder Boss after you beat the Big Bad Boss? Yeah, that'll work!

[Liwen]

I don't believe Rich will play the "Battle against the Snarl" card. That thing kills gods and satters worlds effortlessly for amusement. The Order wouldn't even have time to roll initiative.

As to the gate theory itself, it would be important to add that even without a gate, the rifts remain sealed. they can expand but it is impossible for the Snarl to escape its prison. So even with the five gates gone, it won't change anything, except for Redcloak's plan, which will be impossible to execute.

It is possible that, over time, the rifts would expand to such a great lenght that it would absorb the entire world, at which point the Snarl won't even need to escape, the prison would be gone. I mean, there is no hard evidence that Redcloak prediction about the rift maximum expansion is right. Mathematics are cool for such things, but nature doesn't have to follow any valid scientific theory all the time because because the brightest goblin in existence said it should.

[NENAD]

Did you just punch out Cthulhu? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu)

[David Argall]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html
Redcloak's statement in the second panel. What if the gates that remain keep the snarl from noticing the open rifts? That's why, supposedly, it hasn't escaped yet. They are connected. The snarl won't escape until the last gate is opened because of plot power, yes, but also because the snarl won't notice it can get out until every gate is destroyed.
According to Redcloak's theory.

Now the problem here is that this is just an off the wall possible theory of Redcloak's. What it tells us that up to that point, Redcloak had no information that supported the idea of such a connection, and he still doesn't. He merely has an odd fact that might be explained by something of the sort. And it might be explained by any of several other theories. There is no connection here, just a faint possibility.

[Teron]

I doubt very much that the Order of the Scribble missed any rifts. If nothing else, there are plenty of divination spells they could have used to find them all. Hell, Dorukan could have cast contact other plane and asked the gods directly.

[factotum]

The unknown "one more quest" makes sense to the plot line. Roy and Co. defeat Xykon at the fifth and "final" gate, then have to race to defeat the Snarl at a sixth rift, without the safety features of a gate to assist in holding the Snarl back.


DEFEAT the Snarl? The god-killing abomination that utterly destroyed the first world created by the gods along with all its inhabitants and several of the gods themselves? Not even the Order of the Scribble attempted to defeat the beast, and they were all epic level...OotS have a LOT of levelling up to do before they even come close to that power level.

[The Extinguisher]

Now the problem here is that this is just an off the wall possible theory of Redcloak's. What it tells us that up to that point, Redcloak had no information that supported the idea of such a connection, and he still doesn't. He merely has an odd fact that might be explained by something of the sort. And it might be explained by any of several other theories. There is no connection here, just a faint possibility.

Except that his theory was in the comic, whereas yours isn't.

Law of Dramatics state that he's right. Or else why bother explaining his theory.

[Chronos]

While we're at it on laws of dramatics, Shojo did explicitly theorize that the Snarl might be more dangerous to gods than to mortals. That could be taken as foreshadowing of a mortal or mortals defeating it.

[†Seer†]

Except that his theory was in the comic, whereas yours isn't.

Law of Dramatics state that he's right. Or else why bother explaining his theory.

*seconds this*

I like the theory of still-hidden rifts, even if it isn't plausible. Would be an amusing end, the OotS defeats Xykon/RC at the 'Final' gate, Xykon gets destroyed, Roy's father's oath is appeased, and RC wanders off un-noticed.

After wandering around, he ends up in a cave, which has a rift at the back of it.

...Why not? It works for anime! :smallwink:

[lord of kobolds]

the snarl will probably take a while to realize it is free, even without any gates.
Logic:it's a moron.

[David Argall]

Except that his theory was in the comic, whereas yours isn't.

Law of Dramatics state that he's right. Or else why bother explaining his theory.
I presume you are referring to what Trops calls the Law of Conservation of Detail.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail

As noted, this law applies the most to media that have limited time or space. When you only have space for one line, you want it to be a meaningful one. However OOTS is already 550 strips and is planned for a thousand, a good many of which are multipages. So we have a good deal of room for the meaningless.
We might note here that this law, strictly applied, means that Miko will be back. There is a lot of "meaningless" attention paid to her dead body.

We can also note the opposite, the red herring, in which the statement would be there to lead the reader away from the actual explanation [such as the idea the reason the Snarl has not shown is because it has allready escaped, maybe in the form of the MitD].



I like the theory of still-hidden gates,
There are no hidden gates. There may be undiscovered rifts. The gates are constructs placed on the discovered rifts. It would take considerable re-writing to put another gate into the story.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

DEFEAT the Snarl? The god-killing abomination that utterly destroyed the first world created by the gods along with all its inhabitants and several of the gods themselves? Not even the Order of the Scribble attempted to defeat the beast, and they were all epic level...OotS have a LOT of levelling up to do before they even come close to that power level.

I realise they OotS can't take down the Snarl in a stand up fight, they have to have outside help.

Savage Tide spoilers
I DMed much of "The Savage Tide" Adventure Path, and the Endgame had the Heroes travelling to the Abyss to take down Demogorgon. While there was no way for even 20th level heroes to take down a Demon Lord, they were able to work out a deal with the other demon lords to attack Demogorgon. Then while the two heads of Demogorgon are fending off an attack, the Heroes attack somewhere else to tip the tide of battle.

The gods also know they can't stand against the Snarl, but might have some ideas on Its weaknesses, but just need a band of Heroes willing to enter the Snarl's prison and either kill It, or bind the Snarl to Its prison again.

There have been three Adventure Path adventures so far, and all three ended up in the Abyss. It takes a pretty big beastie to challenge a party of 20th level heroes... And the Snarl is as big a beastie as I've ever seen.

[†Seer†]

We can also note the opposite, the red herring, in which the statement would be there to lead the reader away from the actual explanation [such as the idea the reason the Snarl has not shown is because it has allready escaped, maybe in the form of the MitD].


There are no hidden gates. There may be undiscovered rifts. The gates are constructs placed on the discovered rifts. It would take considerable re-writing to put another gate into the story.

The MitD thory has been brought up before Can't be the Snarl because in...SoD I believe people recognized what the MitD was.

As to gates, thank you meant rifts, was typing in class hehe..

[FrankNorman]

What Redclock and company ought to be trying to do, IMHO, is discover how the Scribble team built the gates in the first place. Then apply that knowledge to the rift they have there in Azure City.
And hey presto - Redcloak would have his very own gate!

Right now, RC's plan amounts to building up a formidable Hobgoblin city-state - with a huge rift-in-reality floating overhead!

Would be fun if he and Xykon crafted another gate-gem, and trained up an a new order of hobgoblin-paladins(1) to look after it.

(1) I mean, of course, whatever the equivalent class would be to the human "paladin".

[The Extinguisher]

I presume you are referring to what Trops calls the Law of Conservation of Detail.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail

As noted, this law applies the most to media that have limited time or space. When you only have space for one line, you want it to be a meaningful one. However OOTS is already 550 strips and is planned for a thousand, a good many of which are multipages. So we have a good deal of room for the meaningless.
We might note here that this law, strictly applied, means that Miko will be back. There is a lot of "meaningless" attention paid to her dead body.

She might well be, but it's completly irrelevant.

As well, The Law of Conservation of Detail is important even if you have a life time to show things. Unless you're trying to pull a Tolkien. Every. Detail. Counts. Period. Fullstop.

[David Argall]

The MitD thory has been brought up before Can't be the Snarl because in...SoD I believe people recognized what the MitD was.


SoD The theory is dubious in and of itself. However these "identifications" are not fatal to it. The big game hunters merely said they did not expect to see one of those around here, which eliminates those creatures we might find in a jungle. However, it need not mean they knew its actual type, just that nothing like it is seen in this jungle. [We also know the folks at the circus do not know what the MitD is, and they seem to have an extensive knowledge of creatures.]
Redcloak says he know what type it is, but at the time, he is trying to recruit the MitD and is not interested in letting the truth get in the way of that.
So the theory has its problems, but far worse circulate around here.

However, the theory is merely offered as an example of why Redcloak's statement should not be taken as controlling. That the example is flawed doesn't change the argument.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

DEFEAT the Snarl? The god-killing abomination that utterly destroyed the first world created by the gods along with all its inhabitants and several of the gods themselves? Not even the Order of the Scribble attempted to defeat the beast, and they were all epic level...OotS have a LOT of levelling up to do before they even come close to that power level.
Now, you're assuming any confrontation with the Snarl will allow the Snarl to bring all its power to bear on its opponents. Most stories that feature such battles give some sort of convenient excuse to weaken Unbeatable Monsters.

And, no, the Order of the Scribble didn't attempt to destroy the Snarl, but they did fight part of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

[T-O-E]

From what i've read, the tears weren't there when the world was created, rips began to show as the Earth (?) became older, and the rifts did not appear all at the same time. If this is fact, then new rifts can be created from seemingly nothingness and it would be impossible to seal them. Allowing the Snarl's possible escape.
This probably won't happen though, I can't see Rich making a new rift in the fabric.

[NENAD]

Now the problem here is that this is just an off the wall possible theory of Redcloak's. What it tells us that up to that point, Redcloak had no information that supported the idea of such a connection, and he still doesn't. He merely has an odd fact that might be explained by something of the sort. And it might be explained by any of several other theories. There is no connection here, just a faint possibility.

Given Redcloak considered the possibility of O-Chul knowing something to be too small for the effort it would take to interrogate him, and did so only because of his ulterior motive, Redcloak has never been wrong to date (that I know of). Therefore, he's a pretty reliable source.

[David Argall]

Given Redcloak considered the possibility of O-Chul knowing something to be too small for the effort it would take to interrogate him, and did so only because of his ulterior motive,

Redcloak has never been wrong to date (that I know of). Therefore, he's a pretty reliable source.
He is shown to be quite wrong in the very same comic [about the reactions of the prisoners.]
In general, Redcloak is playing off Xykon, who takes the role of dunce and thus Redcloak takes the role of the wiser of the two. So we can get an exaggerated view of his personal competence.

[NENAD]

Wow, how'd I miss that?

Still, I'd say Redcloak is a decently reliable source of information on these things.