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StoryKeeper
2008-05-12, 06:35 PM
My players, don't read this :smallmad:.

So I'm DMing a monsters campaign, and I'm having a little trouble challenging my players appropriately. Some of the players had abilities from their race/template decreased in order to balance out the party, but I think certain individuals (who shall remain nameless) might be slightly overpowered. In addition, we have one player who optimizes his characters much more than the rest of the group.

Our PCs include:
*Fiendish Vampire Warlock (many abilities removed)
*Mindflayer Sorcerer
*Blue Dragon True Necromancer (or will be soon.)
*Shadar-Kai Fighter
*Phoenix...thingy Fighter
*Lich Warlock

Any thoughts on how I can challenge my players without simply taking away their powers and loot? Advice?

Pink
2008-05-12, 06:42 PM
What specifically is failing to challenge your players? Combat?

Try some non-combat stuff. I notice a lack of a rogue. The occasional trap could give them something to think about (I recommend looking through a grimtooth trap book for one of these.)

StoryKeeper
2008-05-12, 07:05 PM
Combat is the thing I'm having the hardest time challenging them with, but pretty much every challenge seems below them. The vampire gets insane bonuses to bluff and disguise, so social encounters usually involve him easily lying his *cough* off and passing for a perfectly normal individual. The combat seems to be a cakewalk, but I can always just send bigger baddies at them if I have to. Other challenges usually have a fairly simple answer for them between being able to turn into gas, fly, walk on walls, and just suck the brains out of an inconvinience.

Like I said, I don't want to deprive them of their powers, but I also want to challenge them. Perhaps if I divided them and gave them challenges tailored to their weaknesses...

SilentNight
2008-05-12, 07:09 PM
I like that last idea.:smallbiggrin: Ummm.....I would just either throw tougher goodies at them, or give the current goodies isane tactical advantages. Or both.

Farmer42
2008-05-12, 07:17 PM
Well, with raw numbers, you shouldn't be having that many problems, with LA's and racial HD. In fact, you should be having the opposite, even with OP PCs. That vampire is missing out on 9 levels, and that dragon can't be that far behind him. Can we get some examples of what's going wrong?

FlyMolo
2008-05-12, 07:25 PM
Well, with raw numbers, you shouldn't be having that many problems, with LA's and racial HD. In fact, you should be having the opposite, even with OP PCs. That vampire is missing out on 9 levels, and that dragon can't be that far behind him. Can we get some examples of what's going wrong?

That's true. Is it possible you're *gasp* going against the Will of WotC and grading monster classes by CR instead of level? Because really. A mind flayer using the mind flayer racial class can't eat until level 15. And a mind flayer sorcerer goes against that cardinal rule Thou Shalt Not Give Up Caster Levels.

But yeah. Bigger baddies. Advance them in HD, especially. Find a template you like and apply apply apply. Something thematic like winged or Draconic works, especially in a themed dungeon. A vertical dungeon full of winged critters? An underwater dungeon.

Or just pull a Tucker's Kobolds on them. That's always a possibility. Things are much scarier on the other side of a big ditch, with arrow slits to shoot through and alchemists fire to drop on you.

StoryKeeper
2008-05-12, 07:36 PM
Well, the vampire actually has a level adjustment of +5 after loosing a lot of ability modifiers and special abilities, but I think I set the LA too low even after taking powers. Some examples:

Combat: I created a party of adventurers to counter the monsters' various strengths and weaknesses. A ranger/cleric/hunter of the undead with a couple of swords that had been given all kinds of anti-undead and fiend enchantments gets a single shot in on the vampire before being grappled to the ground and being blood drained to death. He tried to get un-grappled, but the vampire has taken measures to; increase his grappling capability, and the poor adventurer really had no chance. A few of the adventurer's allies showed up a few rounds into teh fight, as did the mind flayer and lich to support the vampire. The adventurers' side has a good-alligned lich and minotaur. The minotaur gets immobilized before he can reach melee, and the lich simply wasn't mobile enough to keep up with the vampire and lich. Eventually the vampire took enough heal spells that he was turned to gas, but he had brought his coffin with him, and the lich was able to bring him back into the fight easily.

Granted, I had lowered the number of adventurers who actually fought because some of the players had to leave earlier in teh session, but still.

Social: The vampire and midn flayer either lie well enough to manipulate peole into doing anything they want, or they dominate the person and make them do it anyway. I've already introduced sigils that make it difficult to dominate people, but I don't want to make that power useless, and so they still find times to use it... really bad times.

Other: Like I said before, with so many abilities at their disposal, few things short of an adamantine wall make it difficult for them to walk around a challenge. Big pit? Walk up the walls or fly to safety. Trapped hallway? Send in a bunch of thralls until all the traps are sprung. Problem solving? Well, that might actually work, but a purely problem solving game wouldn't stay fun long.

Like I said, I think some of them area little overpowered, but I'd rather not take away all their abilities unless absolutely necessary.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-05-12, 07:38 PM
Try this! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301

Note: You might want to scale it down... Just a little:smallwink:

StoryKeeper
2008-05-12, 07:42 PM
Try this! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301

Note: You might want to scale it down... Just a little:smallwink:

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:
That might just do it...

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-12, 10:12 PM
Heres an idea. Take their character sheets, make exact duplicates of them, then add more class levels to make up for the CR differences.

Seriously, a Paladin was out grappled by a Vampire with +5 LA and a 3/4ths BAB class that isn't focused on Str? Not likely.

I mean, everyone of those characters could face their double, who also happens to have 3-10 Cleric levels added on for saves HP and minor casting.

FlyMolo
2008-05-12, 10:50 PM
I kinda dont get it. Up the CR a bit. A lot, in fact.

If your mind flayer is obeying the rules, you're near-epic. Throw a tarrasque at them. For breakfast. For lunch, That Damn Crab, and for dinner, a small army.

Just take what you think'll be an appropriate encounter, then give them the terrain advantage and the draconic template.

Draz74
2008-05-12, 11:26 PM
and for dinner, a small army.

A small army ... but not Level 2 Warriors. No. Dozens of characters, Levels 5-7, who are Swordsages, Warblades, batman Wizards, Crusaders, Beguilers, and Clerics. See if they can handle that. :smallamused:

Kizara
2008-05-13, 01:45 AM
Make a Czilla/RSoP 6 levels higher then the average party level.
Give him a IotSV cohort 2 levels lower.

KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING! Optimize them well, pre-buff.

Holy Word, True Seeing, Death Ward, Prismatic effects, mass haste/displacement, ability buffs, standard cleric power buffs. Give your cleric DMM quicken (not persist) for alot of versitility. Quicken cast Heal or Cure Critical if the cleric gets in danger.

Have them each wear a ring of counterspell (greater dispel magic), and give the cleric a few Nightsticks.

I hope they enjoy being amushed out of etheral by fully buffed casters, having a wizard that is nearly untouchable spamming battlefield control and prismatic effects, and a cleric that can wipe out the undead in a full attack, no question. Dimensional lock should end alot of their shenanegins.

If you don't think that will be enough, I'll break it down more thoughly. Because I know I could beat your players with these reasources.

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-13, 01:52 AM
I think the goal is to challenge them, not to kill them all.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 02:41 AM
Make a Czilla/RSoP 6 levels higher then the average party level.
Give him a IotSV cohort 2 levels lower.

KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING! Optimize them well, pre-buff.

Holy Word, True Seeing, Death Ward, Prismatic effects, mass haste/displacement, ability buffs, standard cleric power buffs. Give your cleric DMM quicken (not persist) for alot of versitility. Quicken cast Heal or Cure Critical if the cleric gets in danger.

Have them each wear a ring of counterspell (greater dispel magic), and give the cleric a few Nightsticks.

I hope they enjoy being amushed out of etheral by fully buffed casters, having a wizard that is nearly untouchable spamming battlefield control and prismatic effects, and a cleric that can wipe out the undead in a full attack, no question. Dimensional lock should end alot of their shenanegins.

If you don't think that will be enough, I'll break it down more thoughly. Because I know I could beat your players with these reasources.

Oh come on. A 5 year old could beat them using CR guidelines, they all took monster classes. You can literally set them up against exact duplicates with 3-10 extra Cleric levels which can all be DMM Persist cheese because they get more feats for those levels.

5<5+X, where X is the difference between CR and HD + LA.