OOTS #556 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[TFT]

Good ol' genre savvy Elan... now if only the others would learn...

[Forum Explorer]

Wow, this is the island of Elan always being right! :smallwink:

Very funny comic and I love the ending

[Szilard]

"Fight, fight, fight the urge to say "I told you so!"

[FoE]

Oh, the net. A railroad plot's best friend.

DM: "So a net caught you guys."
Player 1: I cut throught it.
DM: You can't.
Player 1: Why not?
DM: Because you can't.
Player 1: That's not a reason! I'm cutting through it.
DM: Fine. (makes notes) You are surrounded by a thousand goblins. And a red dragon.
Player 1: Why you lousy mother—

And that's all the time we have tonight folks!

Nice comic, Rich.

[Hood]

I love the complete inanity of Elan being proven right.

[Bitzeralisis]

Heh heh heh. More Elan songs!

[Kyeudo]

Very nice. Elan acting like a moron and being genre savy at the same time. Love it.

[Lumenadducere]

Heheh, one would think they would've learned by now to listen to Elan's sense of the dramatic.

[PhantomFox]

Can we upgrade Elan from Genre Savvy to Dangerously Genre Savvy?

[Axl_Rose]

haha, love elan =D

[Jayngfet]

Can we upgrade Elan from Genre Savvy to Dangerously Genre Savvy?

seconded. he's getting good, well chaotic good.

[DSCrankshaw]

If there's one thing Elan's good at--and seriously, it probably is the only thing he's good at--it's knowing the genre conventions.

I'd be impressed, if he hadn't in all seriousness used the word "rescuinged".

[Xilehxt]

I think "for banjo" is the best war cry ever. :smallbiggrin:

[Remirach]

It's strips like this that make me wish Elan could meet Karn (http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/0114.html) from Adventurers! ...there's a fine line between epic insight and utter stupidity, apparently.

[Animefunkmaster]

Can't help but love Elan. Every time I see him in a panel, I get a big smile on my face.

[Querzis]

You dont have to fight your urge Elan. You earned the right to say «I told you so».

[Ghastly Epigram]

Heh, nice to to have a good old fashioned Elan moment. :smallbiggrin: I like the way this arc is going.

And I still reckon Daigo sounds more like Roy with every strip, albeit perhaps a bit less assertive.

[Sharoth]

Go Elan! Admit that you were right for all the moronically right reasons! ~GRINS~

[Lycar]

Haha, this is cute. An easily escapable net, still no reason to actually escape it? So Elan took the easy way out here. Let the orks remove the net for him. :smallwink:

But at least he is still on full HP and didnt use up any spells. And that ropes are not neccessarily an unsourmountable obstacle for our favourite bard, he proved at the bandits camp. :smallbiggrin:

Lycar

[The Extinguisher]

This proves it.

Elan is a Troper (http://tvtropes.org/).

[Griever]

For Banjo! Heh, great comic, Giant: Gotta love Elan showing off his plot point knowledge :smallbiggrin:

[Rumex]

Heh. What a great explanation of the downside to the Unspoken Plan Guarantee (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee).

[Lunaya]

*giggles* Nice.

Word to the wise, Durkon and Daigo: You can always trust the bard in matters of drama. :smallwink:

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Elan's Best (non fighting) Moment Thus Far!!!
:elan: "Fight, fight, fight the urge to say 'I told you so'!" :elan:

[Fsi-Dib]

I must admit being very disappointed with #556. I can't really reason why I so dislike this issue, but maybe it's the moronity of Elan mixed to metagaming and being right about it. Not always should an event hold a consequence.

Oh, and this was the first time I felt disappointed by a OotS strip. First time for everything.

[Dunamin]

Very nice railroad joke in all this! :smallbiggrin:

[dish]

I must admit being very disappointed with #556. I can't really reason why I so dislike this issue, but maybe it's the moronity of Elan mixed to metagaming and being right about it. Not always should an event hold a consequence.

But in a story like OOTS they usually do. Elan is (almost) always right about the dramatic and various plots. It's one of his traits. Just roll with it, and you'll probably enjoy the next comic more.

[Fsi-Dib]

But in a story like OOTS they usually do. Elan is (almost) always right about the dramatic and various plots. It's one of his traits. Just roll with it, and you'll probably enjoy the next comic more.
Most likely I will enjoy the next issue. This was just a very clumsy way of making the team getting captured. I digest that Elan's sense of dramatic encounters is often true. The sheer possibility that the net wasn't actually meant to really capture the team is just ludicrous. Following the D&D rules, however, it is ridiculously easy to burst through the net...

Oh, and on #rpgnet gloombunny elaborated the issue better than I have. (quoted with permission)

<gloombunny> I just found it to be non-funny
<gloombunny> Elan spends the whole strip predicting something, and then it happens just as he predicted
<gloombunny> There's no twist on expectations or anything
<gloombunny> Elan being right in his prediction isn't really funny when Elan's prediction is the only thing happening in the strip

[Monation]

If I was a DM, I'd give Elan bonus Xp Points just for helping me keep the game flowing smoothly with meta-game info :smallbiggrin:

[Trizap]

I must admit being very disappointed with #556. I can't really reason why I so dislike this issue, but maybe it's the moronity of Elan mixed to metagaming and being right about it. Not always should an event hold a consequence.

Oh, and this was the first time I felt disappointed by a OotS strip. First time for everything.

SCRUBBED

hehehe "Fight Fight Fight Fight the urge to say "I told you so!""

The Voice of Mod: Posters are permitted to express dissatisfaction with an individual strip without being subjected to flames.

[Johnny Blade]

for banjo! :smallbiggrin:

I guess that's what you get for discarding an expert opinion on dramatic tension like nothing.

Also, there's a typo in panel 8 (guaranteed).

[Fsi-Dib]

SCRUBBED
Not liking a strip is now considered crazy? I'd so wish to get back at you, but I refrain from doing so.

Thinking further the strip and talking with others developes my image of why I don't like this particular strip: It simply doesn't hold much content other than Elan's prediction, as quoted in my previous post.

[Pryodex]

Very funny strip, but I would guess Elan to be better well-spoken than to use "guranteed" (typo alert).

*edit* Ah, already mentioned, curse the fine print

[Johnny Blade]

Thinking further the strip and talking with others developes my image of why I don't like this particular strip: It simply doesn't hold much content other than Elan's prediction, as quoted in my previous post.
You mean, besides the rescue team being captured and all? :smallwink:

I mean, yeah, it could have been shown in less panels, and Elan's explanation may be a little verbose, but this scene had to take the whole page. Otherwise, it would just look and feel awkward, since the update (and page in the printed book, although that's not as much of an issue - but still significant - there) would end, well, I don't know, in the middle of a discussion probably.
Anyway, I really can't picture this harming the flow of the story in any way.

[Elfanatic]

Elan sings again! Huzzah!

[JessmanCA]

Oh man, I just finished up a 10 hour day of music school followed by 4 hours of homework. I consider this to be my prize for the day for all that hard work, just as I am about to go to bed. Thank you Rich that seriously made my day :) so hilarious!

[Elder Tsofu]

Oh Durkon, why didn't you follow your own advice and did as Elan?
I guess Elan learned from Durkons refusal to fight Miko when she captured them. :smallwink:

[TheNifty]

Thinking further the strip and talking with others developes my image of why I don't like this particular strip: It simply doesn't hold much content other than Elan's prediction, as quoted in my previous post.

Agreed. the strip feels like a three or four panel joke stretched out to fill a whole page. Seriously, twelve panels for one joke? first OOTS in a while that's resulted in me going "meh".

Imagine your dad telling a really long joke, but then he accidentally lets the punchline slip halfway through. You politely listen to the rest of the setup, and then he finishes with;

"And so the duck says; that's a banana, not a tailpipe!"

And then looks at you expectantly.

Maybe you let out a pity-laugh, but the joke's blown, and you both know it. That's how this felt to me.

[rosebud]

Perhaps I'm just daft, but those Orcs seem more powerful than I would expect?

Durkon is reasonably powerful at this point. Is this a mere issue of numbers or did any orcs become ex-orcs in the melee or did the DM just insert forty thousand traps to subdue the game-vision-poor adventurers to ensure it was an easy battle?

And I would have thought Daigo would have been a bit more sensitive to traps, but I guess it had a 0% DM-ensured failure rate. :smallsmile:

By the way -- for the disappointed, I think the strip gets better the second or third time you read it. :smallbiggrin:

[Tundar]

Hahahaha!

For Banjo!!

err i mean:
for banjo


Since when did Elan dump points into wisdom??

[Martok]

Heh. I loved this strip -- pure Elan awesomeness! :smallamused:

[fractal]

Of course, the other two are quite justified in being annoyed. Elan's refusal to fight may have been a self-fulfilling prophecy - if he could have kept the orcs at bay long enough for Durkon to get off his Holy Word, then only the very highest level orcs would have continued to be a threat.

In any event, I'm still waiting for the day, any day, when the entire OotS team will fight together in the same battle. I don't think it's happened yet for any conflict of consequence. They either split up or someone sits out the fight.

[David Argall]

OK, looks like Therkla is going to have to come to the rescue. It's not certain. [Another possibility. V comes back to the rescue, gets caught. Hinjo comes to the rescue, also gets caught. Captain Axe shows up and gets caught. Lady Kato gets caught... Lord Kuboto gets caught {no plan works perfectly}, several others get caught, until they outnumber the orcs about 2-1 and take their captors prisoner.] Still, it looks the most likely plan.
So will she rescue the party and switch sides [or at least the heros think she switched]? or does she manage to hide her role in their escape [possibly when she is trying to join them]?
A quite possible scene is Therkla slipping in to rescue Elan, who, with his great timing, gives a speech on how much he loves Haley...

[The Stray]

Of course, the other two are quite justified in being annoyed. Elan's refusal to fight may have been a self-fulfilling prophecy - if he could have kept the orcs at bay long enough for Durkon to get off his Holy Word, then only the very highest level orcs would have continued to be a threat.

In any event, I'm still waiting for the day, any day, when the entire OotS team will fight together in the same battle. I don't think it's happened yet for any conflict of consequence. They either split up or someone sits out the fight.

What, you man like in the first fight with Xykon? Everyone there had a chance to participate, even if it didn't always go so well for some of them.

In any case, I third (fouth?) the movement of considering Elan Dangerously Genre Savvy at this point...and I hope to see him use this new dangerousness to the party's advantage!

[eilandesq]

Durkon is about the only member of the Order of the Stick with a halfway decent armor class--and he must have at least *some* ranks in Concentration at his level. Those Orcs have to have a decent number of fighter or warrior levels (and probably a few clerics) to have been able to take out Durkon without getting blasted by spells or squished by a 15' tall Durkon.

On a side note, Durkon is starting to rack some serious spellpower: Holy Word is pretty much "Game Over" to large crowds of significantly lower level enemies. Shame he couldn't pull it off.

[CrystaCub]

hahahahahahahahahaha, wow, I love these special moment of you should have listened to Elan. I love it... i think I may use his quote at some point. :elan: fight fight fight the eurge to say 'I told you so':elan: *dances*

A grand way to take a break from final studying... now back to the insanity

[Holammer]

Durkon tried to pull off a Holy Word there. That's a 7'th level spell. Class and level geeks, spring into action!

[TheWarBlade]

Now all we need is more naked bard goodness!

[Hallavast]

That bard needs to be shot.

Also, HOW DID THEY LOSE? Durkon is a 13th+ level cleric for Pete's sake! Railroad plot indeed... grumbles...

[johnnyriot999]

You don't realize how much you miss Elan's songs until one like that comes around.

[Haleyintraining]

My guess is that Elan will befriend the orcs with his banjo knowledge (and high Charisma), and he will become the high priest of the reformed banjoists, and then there will be a panel showing Roy getting hurt in the afterlife. (Because banjo needed more followers to hurt Roy. Or maybe his corpse will get hurt...) Then he will bust his friends out and the orcs will restock the ship. Than they will set sail again. And Therkla will appear again too, maybe to try to rescue Elan.

[Narthon the Bold]

I've seen that fish before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)

Oh well. I hope it isn't a sign of things to come.

[Blaznak]

Ok, its official. I've lost all touch with reality. I actually understood Elan... :)

[Gurped]

could the church of banjo eventually get enough worshipers to ressurect Roy?
that would make a good turn of events

[Scarblade]

Well, the orcs fought in the name of Banjo, so of course they won:smalltongue:

[banjo1985]

All hail the mighty Banjo! May his subjects forever vanquish the evil forces arrayed against them!

Another good strip, anything including some of Elan's unbreakable logic is great stuff.

[Beholder1995]

Durkon tried to pull off a Holy Word there. That's a 7'th level spell. Class and level geeks, spring into action!

Really? I was wondering what he was supposed to be saying...

Nice comic. Not as funny as the last one, but I am satisfied!

[ImperiousLeader]

Durkon tried to pull off a Holy Word there. That's a 7'th level spell. Class and level geeks, spring into action!

Meh, a Cleric needs to be at least 13th level to cast that, and we were pretty sure the Order was at that level for the Battle of Azure City.

[Shatteredtower]

Also, HOW DID THEY LOSE? Durkon is a 13th+ level cleric for Pete's sake!An underequipped 13th level cleric who'd be a halfway decent warrior if he had a better mind for numbers. Accompanied only by an NPC who is almost certainly nowhere near equal to his level. Neither of whom stopped to rest (and regain spells) since their last encounter from these orcs, who, judging from the "Ffft, ffft, ffft!" sounds, had some pretty decent archery support for their (appropriately levelled) chief.

One other thing to consider is the fact that 3rd Edition guidelines called for making encounters suitable to party level. If you were still facing enemies backed up by humanoid mooks at higher levels, the humanoid mooks would likely be a few levels higher, so there'd actually be some meaningful challenge in (and reward for) overcoming them.

That might not apply here, since the real issue is an underpowered cleric without anything approaching standard support going up against what a challenge that might have otherwise have been easy enough if he'd had both the bard and the wizard for backup.

I liked this strip. It makes it easier to see why there will be a happy ending for Elan.

[Eric]

Durkon is about the only member of the Order of the Stick with a halfway decent armor class--and he must have at least *some* ranks in Concentration at his level.

Although in my opinion, armour is darn near useless. When you're in the first few levels, the best armour you get will mean you could be hit maybe 25% of the time. By the time you get magical armour, you're a few levels higher and so are your opponents. So the few measly points on your AC still means you get hit 35-45% of the time.

And, unless it's a monty haul game, when you get the best armour, you're opponents will hit you like 80% of the time.

It's far more readily seen in CRPGs based on 3E rules, like IWD2: when you're high level there really isn't any point in wearing high defense armour unless you stack up BIG TIME on it, to such an extent that you have to have a munchkin party to have a suitably low chance of being hit to survive mass attacks.

Part of the problem I feel is the use of d20. That's a big honking range, so you either have a small change in AC as you go up in quality or risk having invulnerable characters at low levels.

It's even worse with 3E skill checks. E.g. to make a lock difficult to pick without skill levels, normal locks are around the 20 level. But you don't get that many skill points per level and so you're left being too often unable to pick a lock, which is why you took the skill in the first place! If 2d6 or 1d6 had been used, then your skill rating would be much more valuable and the harder options wouldn't have to be so high because the low-level/skill characters can't make up to 20 points by luck.

EDIT: And don't get me started on "unskilled" checks. Heck with a decent base stat, you don't NEED no stinkin skill points! So I have "unskilled" checks being at -5, reduce the difficulty by 5 of everything and have opposed checks biased by 5 points in the favour of the active check (so if you're moving silently, a hear noise check is passive and at -5 : you can walk more carefully but you can't really strain your ears much).

[Mauve Shirt]

Elan's knowledge of dramatic conventions wins again!

[Forealms]

It is Banjo's will that these sacrilegious intruders be sacrificed. Except for Elan, as I believe Banjo is also the God of Tropes.

[RobbyPants]

These must be some tough orcs, to take on a level 13ish cleric. :smalltongue:

[hajo]

Elan's Best (non fighting) Moment Thus Far!!!
Not to forget his escape from prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), and his hymn for Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) !

[fractal]

What, you man like in the first fight with Xykon? Everyone there had a chance to participate, even if it didn't always go so well for some of them.
You mean Elan spending his portion of the battle tumbling, and Haley showing up late to tackle Elan? You can count that as Elan participating, if you like (I mean, what else is he going to do?), but I don't think it counts for Haley at all. There's no evidence she even attacked anything (other than Elan).

Maybe I should clarify. Yes, Haley was there, yes, she did something - but it was tangential at best to the overall party goal of fighting Xykon and his minions. I'd compare it to Belkar's role as a tetherball in the fight against the bandits (as opposed to Durkon's role as a sack of potatoes).

[lord of kobolds]

Now all we need is more naked bard goodness!

nononononononono:smallyuk:
But they should have a little cult of orcs on one bit of the island worshipping banjhulu:smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

Why does this remind me from the scene in Return of the Jedi when the party was captured by the Ewoks -- oh, right. Because they also got caught in the net. And because the blonde-haired hero refused to fight, despite the fact that a Jedi, a level-XX wookie and a level-XX rogue/scoundrel could wipe the floor with low-level tree-dwelling mooks any day of the week.

I'm just not feeling the tension here. It feels like filler until we get back to Xykon, his dastardly deeds, and Haley and her walk to Greysky city. Lord Kuroda's not just doing it for me as a villain -- A) he hasn't had enough screen time and B) he has neither been comically funny nor dastardly evil -- he feels like a 'flavor-of-the-month' villain raised up to occupy Elan, V, and Durkon until the main plot can get back on track. And an IMP? An IMP as the primary villain to face off with?

I imagine it will read better in the graphic novel.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SteveMB]

Now all we need is more naked bard goodness!

What if that gives the orcs the idea that going around naked is the will of Banjo? :smalleek:

[factotum]

Part of the problem I feel is the use of d20. That's a big honking range, so you either have a small change in AC as you go up in quality or risk having invulnerable characters at low levels.


I'd disagree there. I used to play Rolemaster many years ago, which had d100 as the standard skill dice, and that system worked just fine; whatever issues the d20 system has isn't down to the range of the skill rolls.

[El_Frenchie]

Maybe one the very few strips in this comic that just didn't do it for me. Looking forward to 557 though.

[Gherit]

I'll have to echo what a few people have said here. This isn't one of your better comics. Could I do better, certainly not, your worst comic would be better than anything I could come up with.
To me, this whole story arc is getting a bit out of hand.
Of course this is all subjective. To each their own.

[HOLEkevin]

Meta-gaming hath ne'er tasted so sweet.

[Wreckingrocc]

... Durkon sucks. He got beaten up by an orc tribe. I mean, come on! He has acess to what, 6th, 7th level spells? He should be able to just clear them out! He has:
A) Domain abilities.
B) High level spells.
C) 10-15 hit die.
D) Good gear.
E) A partner.
He is a failure as a cleric. It's just ridiculous.

[Morty]

... Durkon sucks. He got beaten up by an orc tribe. I mean, come on! He has acess to what, 6th, 7th level spells? He should be able to just clear them out! He has:
A) Domain abilities.
B) High level spells.
C) 10-15 hit die.
D) Good gear.
E) A partner.
He is a failure as a cleric. It's just ridiculous.

I know it sounds crazy, but what if the orc tribe consists of high-level members, possibly even spellcasters?

[Ikialev]

There are no things like high level orc.

Also, I know it's not on topic, but I couldn't find a better place: What's the female form of 'angel'? ^^

[Paragon Badger]

There are no things like high level orc.

Also, I know it's not on topic, but I couldn't find a better place: What's the female form of 'angel'? ^^

I thought it was a genderless term...

And there may not be such a thing as a high level orc... but there is such a thing as dozens of medium level orcs. :smalltongue:

Round 1: Durkon is surrounded by 8 orcs (or 6, if using hexes) who have a surprise round.
Round 2: ...Yeah.

[factotum]

I didn't think there was any limit to how many class levels a monster could have, so why couldn't there be high level orcs on the island?

[Shatteredtower]

I didn't think there was any limit to how many class levels a monster could have, so why couldn't there be high level orcs on the island?Since 1 HD humanoids, such as orcs, usually have class levels instead of monstrous HD, there might be even less reason for them not to have levels than usual, depending on how dangerous the island is.

For example, if there's an EL 4 earthquake once a week and an EL 7 volcanic eruption once a season, plus an annual pirate encounter, anyone that's lived for more than a year or two isn't likely to be stuck at 1st level. Throw in spear-fishing in shark-infested waters, and they could be a pretty tough bunch.

And let's not forget the xp value for successfully overcoming grammar lessons either. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

You mean Elan spending his portion of the battle tumbling, and Haley showing up late to tackle Elan? You can count that as Elan participating, if you like (I mean, what else is he going to do?), but I don't think it counts for Haley at all. There's no evidence she even attacked anything (other than Elan).
They also sucked up a spell from Xykon.


Maybe I should clarify. Yes, Haley was there, yes, she did something - but it was tangential at best to the overall party goal of fighting Xykon and his minions. I'd compare it to Belkar's role as a tetherball in the fight against the bandits (as opposed to Durkon's role as a sack of potatoes).
Durkon was the one who won that fight.

But I am not sure what you mean by "the entire OotS team will fight together in the same battle" [and not entirely sure you do either]. You seem to be rejecting the obvious "present on the battlefield and trying to contribute".
If you mean something like "each did 17% of the damage to the enemy", you seem to be focusing on a mathematical goal that will just get in the way of the fun. We don't really care if the average figure over several fights is close to 17% each.

[SKarious]

Elan should get some roleplaying XP for that speech as well. reminds me of "Haley's Choice" at the burning inn.
And I loved the nod to the Princess Bride. Can't wait for the next strip.

[lord of kobolds]

Since 1 HD humanoids, such as orcs, usually have class levels instead of monstrous HD, there might be even less reason for them not to have levels than usual, depending on how dangerous the island is.

For example, if there's an EL 4 earthquake once a week and an EL 7 volcanic eruption once a season, plus an annual pirate encounter, anyone that's lived for more than a year or two isn't likely to be stuck at 1st level. Throw in spear-fishing in shark-infested waters, and they could be a pretty tough bunch.

And let's not forget the xp value for successfully overcoming grammar lessons either. :smallwink:

Also, the reason there aren't many high level orcs, is that the ones that reach high level cause trouble, which attracts PCs. There were no PCs on the island to impose a level cap until elan, durkon and V came. They could have gotten to a very high level, if not epic.:smalltongue:

[King of Nowhere]

For the title, I have preferred "The railroad plot strikes again"

[SirBel]

That was classic D&D! There are some traps that are unavoidable for plot continuity...Hi-Larious!

[fractal]

But I am not sure what you mean by "the entire OotS team will fight together in the same battle" [and not entirely sure you do either]. You seem to be rejecting the obvious "present on the battlefield and trying to contribute".
If you mean something like "each did 17% of the damage to the enemy", you seem to be focusing on a mathematical goal that will just get in the way of the fun. We don't really care if the average figure over several fights is close to 17% each.
No, I'll settle for "present on the battlefield and trying to contribute, to the full extent of their ability". I would argue that Haley really doesn't count for Xykon's throne room (she wasn't even there or armed for most of it). Belkar doesn't count for the bandits. Vaarsuvius is iffy for the dragon (yes, later he takes action, but for most of the battle he watches it mop the floor with his neglectful comrades). Durkon sits out the first fight with Miko, and only heals in the second fight. The second Linear Guild encounter is just a mess of scattered party members, while the third Linear Guild encounter completely bypasses Roy. Everyone acts to defend Azure City, but in separate ways.

And since Roy's death, the party of course is scattered. Even beyond that, however, the people who are in the same place STILL don't even fight together! The Order of the Stick are NOT poster children for teamwork.

[fractal]

I'd disagree there. I used to play Rolemaster many years ago, which had d100 as the standard skill dice, and that system worked just fine; whatever issues the d20 system has isn't down to the range of the skill rolls.
The difference between Rolemaster and the d20 system is that Rolemaster was built around gradations of success and failure. That +10 to attack wasn't the difference between hitting or missing, it was the difference between 8 damage and a B critical, or 11 damage and a C critical. +20 on a skill check would get you from a a Partial Success to a 90% Success. Under those circumstances, it's a lot easier to tell that every little bit counts.

[lord_khaine]

Although in my opinion, armour is darn near useless. When you're in the first few levels, the best armour you get will mean you could be hit maybe 25% of the time. By the time you get magical armour, you're a few levels higher and so are your opponents. So the few measly points on your AC still means you get hit 35-45% of the time.

And, unless it's a monty haul game, when you get the best armour, you're opponents will hit you like 80% of the time.


this is incorrect, a melee char who focus a little on his ac can get decent protection from most of the enemy types he will encounter, as long as he has gear according to WBL.

durkon is a cleric, that means he can skip the "gear according to WBL" part with a few spells.

that aside, i will also say this is the first time the last 100 comics that i was disapointet, i really did not like the part about staying in the net because they were suposed to.

[DanShive]

This trope applies to my day to day life. I am almost always most successful when I don't share my plan with others beforehand ^^;

[Saint Nil]

Ah... When will they learn that as silly as Elan is, when it comes to dramitics, he's normally right.


Wait, did I just say Elan's noramally right?

[ref]

Hehe... Genius and fool are only separated by degree of success. Elan may be childish to the core, but you have to give it to him that he knows the drama conventions really well.

[Pip]

The best part? Elan actually thinks he hasn't 'told them so.'

:smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

No, I'll settle for "present on the battlefield and trying to contribute, to the full extent of their ability". I would argue that Haley really doesn't count for Xykon's throne room (she wasn't even there or armed for most of it). Belkar doesn't count for the bandits. Vaarsuvius is iffy for the dragon (yes, later he takes action, but for most of the battle he watches it mop the floor with his neglectful comrades). Durkon sits out the first fight with Miko, and only heals in the second fight. The second Linear Guild encounter is just a mess of scattered party members, while the third Linear Guild encounter completely bypasses Roy. Everyone acts to defend Azure City, but in separate ways.

But just look at the length of this list of excuses [and some of them seem very much just excuses]. It seems that no matter what the circumstances, there is a "reason" why that fight doesn't qualify.

I am reminded of a story about a golfer who always had an excuse for playing poorly. The writer was unkind enough to total them up and compute they meant that only once in a million times could the golfer play a decent game, ending with the comment "Having seen him play, I'd say that is about right."
I'd say your definition also makes it durn difficult for the party to qualify.

[Mojique]

In #556 Elan reminds me on pen&paper-players who try to find out the intentions of the gamemaster instead of playing their SCs.

[VForVaarsuvius]

Anyone else seeing a severe resemblance to Return of the Jedi?

Great comic, as usual.

\V/

[OwlbearUltimate]

Is it just me, or since Elan got those new clothes has he gotten smarter?

[Wolfram]

Also, I know it's not on topic, but I couldn't find a better place: What's the female form of 'angel'? ^^[/SIZE]

Angela? :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Is it just me, or since Elan got those new clothes has he gotten smarter?

He hasn't got smarter, he's just got more attuned to the dramatic needs of what he does. He is a Dashing Swordsman, after all--he knows that he has to crash in through an inn window to rescue the fair maiden, not walk in the front door!

[Eric]

I'd disagree there. I used to play Rolemaster many years ago, which had d100 as the standard skill dice, and that system worked just fine; whatever issues the d20 system has isn't down to the range of the skill rolls.

I did a little of that too. But d100 systems didn't add the 1-100 to a skill roll. Skills either modified the dice or the dice modified proportionately the skill (Rolemaster did the former, I believe, DC Heroes did the latter). Judge Dredd was a d100 system in lots of places too.

The d20 system is simple but it doesn't need to be used quite as widely as it is in 3E.

In D&D (as opposed to AD&D) the Gazetteers brought in a cool idea: armour reduced the damage taken. Your had "critical" hits that bypassed armour just to make sure you didn't go all gung-ho into a group of orcs thinking that your 30HP fighter will last ten rounds no problem. And damage reduction is useful even when you're high level.

[Eric]

For the title, I have preferred "The railroad plot strikes again"

Or

"The Plot Strikes Back"?

"Return of the Plot Point"?

[Daibhid C]

Agreed. the strip feels like a three or four panel joke stretched out to fill a whole page. Seriously, twelve panels for one joke? first OOTS in a while that's resulted in me going "meh".

Imagine your dad telling a really long joke, but then he accidentally lets the punchline slip halfway through. You politely listen to the rest of the setup, and then he finishes with;

"And so the duck says; that's a banana, not a tailpipe!"

And then looks at you expectantly.

Maybe you let out a pity-laugh, but the joke's blown, and you both know it. That's how this felt to me.

I would agree, but the punchline return of the running gag (and Elan doing that thing where you say something by saying you aren't saying it) sold it for me.

I will admit, however, that it's the first time in a while I've only LOLed *once* reading OoTS.:smalltongue:

[Hallavast]

An underequipped 13th level cleric who'd be a halfway decent warrior if he had a better mind for numbers. Accompanied only by an NPC who is almost certainly nowhere near equal to his level. Neither of whom stopped to rest (and regain spells) since their last encounter from these orcs, who, judging from the "Ffft, ffft, ffft!" sounds, had some pretty decent archery support for their (appropriately levelled) chief.

One other thing to consider is the fact that 3rd Edition guidelines called for making encounters suitable to party level. If you were still facing enemies backed up by humanoid mooks at higher levels, the humanoid mooks would likely be a few levels higher, so there'd actually be some meaningful challenge in (and reward for) overcoming them.

That might not apply here, since the real issue is an underpowered cleric without anything approaching standard support going up against what a challenge that might have otherwise have been easy enough if he'd had both the bard and the wizard for backup.

I liked this strip. It makes it easier to see why there will be a happy ending for Elan.

An "underpowered [13th lvl] cleric" is still more powerful than a score of lvl 1-4 orcs (also don't know what you mean by "apropriately leveled chief").

And I don't subscribe to the school of thought that says a DM has to level up the rest of the universe in accordance with the party's power level. It doesn't make sense for the continuity of the world and subtracts from versimilitude. If these heroes are looking for a challenge, they shouldn't be able to find one on the island of primitive orcs. There shouldn't really be a conflict in this sub-arch, but the "DM" is obviously fishing around for a way to set up some scene with a particular villain if I'm not mistaken. The "DM's" method lacks subtlety, and I'm not impressed.

[DrivinAllNight]

And :elan: makes another Bard Song that doesn't do what is what made to do, kind of like the sneak silently bard song :)
But not a bad strip, I assume it is a setup for something good next time.

[Doug Lampert]

The difference between Rolemaster and the d20 system is that Rolemaster was built around gradations of success and failure. That +10 to attack wasn't the difference between hitting or missing, it was the difference between 8 damage and a B critical, or 11 damage and a C critical. +20 on a skill check would get you from a a Partial Success to a 90% Success. Under those circumstances, it's a lot easier to tell that every little bit counts.And yet +20% under the rolemaster system typically mattered LESS than +4 on a d20 in D&D land.

That small change was normally in the noise or "who cares" in rolemaster, but hey, at least it was easily visible, you did a C crit instead of a B and 3 more damage, while it's easy to just treat MISSING ENTIRELY as "just bad luck" in D&D land.

Missing entirely matters more even if it doesn't happen on every roll.

Run a few sample combats in both systems if you don't believe me. Rolemaster had a much greater luck inpact due to open ending and wierd crit results, but +20 from skill wasn't really a huge deal, but +4 in D&D land is GOLDEN, at mid level (say level 6 figheters) the guy with the extra +4 will win the fight almost EVERY SINGLE TIME if built and played sanely.

[Doug Lampert]

I did a little of that too. But d100 systems didn't add the 1-100 to a skill roll. Skills either modified the dice or the dice modified proportionately the skill (Rolemaster did the former, I believe, DC Heroes did the latter). Judge Dredd was a d100 system in lots of places too.

The d20 system is simple but it doesn't need to be used quite as widely as it is in 3E.

In D&D (as opposed to AD&D) the Gazetteers brought in a cool idea: armour reduced the damage taken. Your had "critical" hits that bypassed armour just to make sure you didn't go all gung-ho into a group of orcs thinking that your 30HP fighter will last ten rounds no problem. And damage reduction is useful even when you're high level.

In what universe does Rolemaster NOT add skill to the d100 roll?

Presumably in the SAME universe where armor in D&D is pointless.

Sadly that universe isn't this one.

[Eric]

In what universe does Rolemaster NOT add skill to the d100 roll?

Presumably in the SAME universe where armor in D&D is pointless.

Sadly that universe isn't this one.

Well, maybe it was Glorantha. The Wild Magic in D&D had a % system and each point added to the roll, 100%+ being "it worked fine" and so a single point doubled your change of an effective 100. And most of the bad effects were gone at +25, though you'd still get "sub-optimal" results up in the 80's. So that % system each point made a point, if you pardon the pun.

In D&D you've probably got a + weapon about the same as your + armour. So that cancels out. And a fighter is +8 at Lvl8, +3 from STR and +1 or +2 from weapon skill. So you're goiing to hit someone with Magical Plate 7/20 times. At first level, your ordinary plate would mean you'd be hit 4/20 times.

Of course, 1HD orcs will hit your +2 Plate body 1/20 times, but they're not worth any XP.

Admittedly, NO armour is worse, but by about 12th level, that's a 19/20 vs 10/20: double the expected damage of no vs full armour, whereas it used to be 12/20 vs 3/20: quadruple.

[Avilan the Grey]

An "underpowered [13th lvl] cleric" is still more powerful than a score of lvl 1-4 orcs (also don't know what you mean by "apropriately leveled chief").


???

Why wouldn't there be orcs with higher levels?

[Ikialev]

Phfff.

Because orcs suck.

[David Argall]

???

Why wouldn't there be orcs with higher levels?

There would be, but...

There's a difference between game and world here. In a game, you want challenge. So if you face orcs, they are to be a challenge to you, even tho the average orc is a wimp suitable only for low level challenges. So you fact high level orcs. The point that high level orcs should be rare is simply not important.

But in a world, that is important. There are a very few high level orcs, and the chance the party just happened to run into a tribe of them is very low. We see Haley and Belkar run thru scores of hobgoblins [without effort on Belkar's part] And we know that Durkon is of similar power. His capture just jars, if you think about it [which may be a good reason not to].

[lord of kobolds]

There would be, but...

There's a difference between game and world here. In a game, you want challenge. So if you face orcs, they are to be a challenge to you, even tho the average orc is a wimp suitable only for low level challenges. So you fact high level orcs. The point that high level orcs should be rare is simply not important.

But in a world, that is important. There are a very few high level orcs, and the chance the party just happened to run into a tribe of them is very low. We see Haley and Belkar run thru scores of hobgoblins [without effort on Belkar's part] And we know that Durkon is of similar power. His capture just jars, if you think about it [which may be a good reason not to].

First of all, we know that the hobbos were very low level(probably 1st) because they were all common soldiers, not officers.
Second, there is a difference between running past someone and being ambushed by them.
Thirdly, why can't orcs be high level? They gain XP at the same rate everyone else does. If it's because they're orcs, that doesn't really work either. RC is a very high level goblin, and there were several hobgoblin clerics of at least 5th? level, since they could cast animate dead. if there were that many 5th level clerics, there is bound to be at least one ninth level, possibly even tenth level ones.

[teratorn]

Thirdly, why can't orcs be high level?

Check the SRD. For a ~100 band of Orcs one would expect about 3 7 level captains, 5 5 level lieutenents and about 10 3 level sargeants. These reflect the fact that these guys need to get their XP from somewhere, and are based on some math done to help DMs plan their games. Assuming dice flow evenly (and for a big group they should) you can estimate the numbers required. I think your village would need about 1000 orcs to have somebody at level 11.

But one should not forget that Therkla helped them make the trap. Therkla is high level enough to kill Hinjo. Being also a ninja, and given their lousy spot and listen checks, she could have hit them without being seen.

[David Argall]

First of all, we know that the hobbos were very low level(probably 1st) because they were all common soldiers, not officers.
And the same logic applies to the orcs, possibly even more so. While things can get vicious at times, islanders in general live pretty peaceful lives because a lot of foes simply can't reach them.
So just as the hobs are mostly low level, we would assume the orcs are heavily low level.


Second, there is a difference between running past someone and being ambushed by them.
I said running thru, not past. Haley considers 30 hobs behind a wall an irritant, Belkar deems it a little fun. Both assume those that don't get out of their way are going to die. This is bowling ball vs pins, and we have no reason to think they were strikes while Durkon went into the gutter.
Now the point of ambush has some weight, but surprise is only a partial action in D&D, well worth having, but it only swings a level fight. Moreover, we have little evidence that there was an ambush. [The very existance of the net trap argues against any ambush. You don't want something like that that might alert the victims.] The expression "Intruders!" is more consistent with the orcs managing a spot check [rare as that is in this strip] while going about routine business.


Thirdly, why can't orcs be high level? They gain XP at the same rate everyone else does.
Right, and the hobgoblins do too, and are still mostly wimps.


there were several hobgoblin clerics of at least 5th? level, since they could cast animate dead. if there were that many 5th level clerics, there is bound to be at least one ninth level, possibly even tenth level ones.
We are talking of 30,000 hobgoblins [possibly with the addition of a great many more non-combatants]. The number of orcs seems to be about 50 [also with some possible non-combatants.] Taking a casual assumption that each level is twice as common as the one above it, the top orc is about 6th, and the top hobgoblin is 15th. We can use other models, but they do have much the same conclusion. There just is a very small chance of any orcs being of high level.

[otakuryoga]

man...good thing daigo and durkon are tied up in the last panel or elan would be getting double-smacked upside the head

[EponymousKid]

Who else initially thought Elan was just being stupid about the net? Arguably, he was being stupid anyway, even though he was right.

[JessmanCA]

Agreed. the strip feels like a three or four panel joke stretched out to fill a whole page. Seriously, twelve panels for one joke? first OOTS in a while that's resulted in me going "meh".

Imagine your dad telling a really long joke, but then he accidentally lets the punchline slip halfway through. You politely listen to the rest of the setup, and then he finishes with;

"And so the duck says; that's a banana, not a tailpipe!"

And then looks at you expectantly.

Maybe you let out a pity-laugh, but the joke's blown, and you both know it. That's how this felt to me.


Nonono, the humor is in the irony, and the fulfilled expectations, the triumph of the fool. Elan's hilariously overacted despair over a trivial roadblock, which everyone else just brushes off, then elan is right and the other's get their comeuppance. It's good storytelling man, it's like a comedy Aesop's Fable. One of my favorite strips in awhile.

[Avilan the Grey]

I agree with Jessman, this is one of the best ones in quite a while.

[Avilan the Grey]

We are talking of 30,000 hobgoblins [possibly with the addition of a great many more non-combatants]. The number of orcs seems to be about 50 [also with some possible non-combatants.] Taking a casual assumption that each level is twice as common as the one above it, the top orc is about 6th, and the top hobgoblin is 15th. We can use other models, but they do have much the same conclusion. There just is a very small chance of any orcs being of high level.

Well it depends on the game world and DM. Logically, High Level humans or Elves should be just as rare as high-level orcs.
The standard "orc" is just the standard villager, lvl 1 commoner, orc variant (which means "thug"). But just as there are these lvl 14 human / dwarf heroes walking around, there must be Orc warlords, lvl 2 fighter / 2 ranger / 12 barbarian multiclass, teamed up with an Orc Cleric / Stormlord multiclass henchman and their small band of lvl 9 figher orcs.
...Boy are the players going to be surprised if they expect all orc to be lvl 1 loosers.

We had an interesting encounter once with a band of 20 kobolds, played SMART by the DM, who's leader was a lvl 9 or so chaman (we were level 6+ at the time). The rest of the cobolds were level 1, but played smart, with ambushes, traps that actually worked, and using the terrain the way intellegent small creatures WOULD, and backed up by their shaman, we took some heavy damage and 2 unconcious characters before rooting them out of their home.

[Trizap]

Is it just me, or since Elan got those new clothes has he gotten smarter?

maybe they're magical and provide a +3 bonus to Int.

[David Argall]

We had an interesting encounter once with a band of 20 kobolds, played SMART by the DM, who's leader was a lvl 9 or so chaman (we were level 6+ at the time). The rest of the cobolds were level 1, but played smart, with ambushes, traps that actually worked, and using the terrain the way intellegent small creatures WOULD, and backed up by their shaman, we took some heavy damage and 2 unconcious characters before rooting them out of their home.

In some respects, this is DM cheating. You were not fighting PC vs kobold, you were fighting PC vs DM.
The kobolds are level one in part because they don't do these things. When they set traps, they should be largely first level traps, of low damage and low spot roles. Recall here that traps can misfire and hit the one setting them up with bad rolls, and as first level critters, kobolds are just not very skilled.
Now the DM can balance the situation out with XP and treasure according to the actual CR, but it is still a dubious idea.

[SoD]

But one should not forget that Therkla helped them make the trap. Therkla is high level enough to kill Hinjo. Being also a ninja, and given their lousy spot and listen checks, she could have hit them without being seen.

Actually, she's high enough level to be tasked with killing Hinjo, we don't know if she can or not yet. Big difference.

[fractal]

We are talking of 30,000 hobgoblins [possibly with the addition of a great many more non-combatants]. The number of orcs seems to be about 50 [also with some possible non-combatants.] Taking a casual assumption that each level is twice as common as the one above it, the top orc is about 6th, and the top hobgoblin is 15th. We can use other models, but they do have much the same conclusion. There just is a very small chance of any orcs being of high level.
Well, there could actually be quite a lot of orcs. It's a big island. Furthermore, Hinjo thought that they would be capable of at least partially resupplying the fleet of tens of thousands (or more) refugees from Azure City. I'd bet there are hundreds of orcs, minimum.

As far as overwhelming Durkon... perhaps he has poor Concentration skill? (Can't imagine why he would, we know he's not putting those ranks into Knowledge: Religion.) Some readied attacks to disrupt spells, and then some Aid Another grapples and pins, and the orcs could bring him down. I mean, Durkon even had trouble with the goblins in Xykon's throne room, until Belkar rejoined him, giving him breathing room, and allowing him to cast Thor's Might.

[Breltar]

This one was an 'ok' strip for me, but I hope it leads to more laughs.

As far as the orcs go, this could be accounted for by a special subrace or some as yet unknown entity giving them more power than normal. (Imp is a high level caster that buffed them?)

It is nice to have things that arent exactly what they appear every now and then, since a gameworld where everything is 'normal' would be rather bland to seasoned players.

If the chances of an island of high level orcs being encountered is huge, then what are the chance percentages of having an encounter with a lich?

btw, my favorite d100 system was the original 'one book' warhammer fantasy rpg (not the miniature wargame).

Keep up the good work Rich.

[Hallavast]

There is no reason to believe these orcs are any more powerful than the standard tribe in the Monster Manual. Given that most (99.9%) of the world is below lvl 5, making an isolated island that just happens to have insanely powerful orcs that have not expanded to conquer other islands or civilizations and are still using primitive weapons and are still prone to worshopping a puppet sounds like a load of contrived nonsense.

If Therkla were involved I could see the case for Durkon being captured. But there is no evidence to suggest her involvement, and if I'm right about what Rich is planning, he won't want Durkon to notice her involvement. Having her being involved without Durkon's knowledge is also a cop-out, because we didn't see the actual fight.

I guess my point is: I want the details of that fight, Dungeon Master! :smallmad:

[teratorn]

If Therkla were involved I could see the case for Durkon being captured. But there is no evidence to suggest her involvement, and if I'm right about what Rich is planning, he won't want Durkon to notice her involvement. Having her being involved without Durkon's knowledge is also a cop-out, because we didn't see the actual fight.
The thing is, the imp acted like he expected the orcs to capture them without his and Therkla's help. Now a band this big would have someone on the level with Daigo, probably also Lien. But not Durkon. Who knows, this may be the place where adventuring orcs come after they retire.

[SPoD]

sounds like a load of contrived nonsense.

Everything is a load of contrived nonsense. It's a comedy, especially in this scene. You have a mistaken belief that the comic will conform to your idea of logic, when there is little to nothing in the comic that would support that conclusion.


I guess my point is: I want the details of that fight, Dungeon Master! :smallmad:

There is no Dungeon Master. There was no fight. There are no details. Because this isn't a D&D game, it's a story. And things happen "off-screen" in stories sometimes.

[Hallavast]

Everything is a load of contrived nonsense. It's a comedy, especially in this scene. You have a mistaken belief that the comic will conform to your idea of logic, when there is little to nothing in the comic that would support that conclusion.

I don't see why comedy has to be contrived. Especially since most of the humor of this comic comes from modelling ironic things that happen in D&D games.



There is no Dungeon Master. There was no fight. There are no details. Because this isn't a D&D game, it's a story. And things happen "off-screen" in stories sometimes.

Maybe you missed the subtlety here, sweetie. I was merely indicating interest in either a synopsis of the fight or perhaps some bonus "behind the scenes" material from Mr. Burlew. When I say "Dungeon Master", I am addressing The Giant.



The thing is, the imp acted like he expected the orcs to capture them without his and Therkla's help. Now a band this big would have someone on the level with Daigo, probably also Lien. But not Durkon. Who knows, this may be the place where adventuring orcs come after they retire.

Hmm... maybe. But if the DM/author erroneously believes that an encounter with durkon and friends will favor mook orcs (which it probably wouldn't), then naturally the NPC in question would also express that. It doesn't necessarily mean the imp knows a good, solid reason that the orcs would win such a fight. But yeah, maybe it's where retired orc adventurers go in their "golden years". It would have made for some good humor for Rich to illustrate such a fact if that were the case though.

[SPoD]

Maybe you missed the subtlety here, sweetie. I was merely indicating interest in either a synopsis of the fight or perhaps some bonus "behind the scenes" material from Mr. Burlew. When I say "Dungeon Master", I am addressing The Giant.

Then that's a foolish wish that will never be granted, given that this is largely unimportant scene. If Rich wanted us to know how it happened, he would have shown us. The whole point of the joke is that it happened in spite of expectations.

Further, your choice of wording is poor to the point of obfuscating your meaning, as there is a qualitative difference between a DM and an author. An author is not required to "play fair" with his characters (because there are no players behind them); a DM is. By asking for information from a DM, you demonstrate that you don't understand this difference and expect Rich to abide by rules that he is under no obligation to follow.

Finally, calling a female poster whom you don't know personally "sweetie" is demeaning at best, sexist at worst. My boyfriend can call me "sweetie" if he wishes. You? Cannot.

[Ninjamuffin]

I don't get what the problem is with a large band of orcs being able to overpower two people who walked right into their camp. (Or, at least, one would assume that based upon the yell of 'Intruders!' and the fact that the camp is where Lien is.)
We know they've got casters, probably archers or something resembling them, a big 'ol chief, and a shaman.
And, heck, we don't have a clue as to how many there were in the fight, or even what level they were. We can make assumptions based upon the norm, but, really, this comic is known for making fun of that. Plus, for all we know, these orcs are just one tribe out of an unknown number. We can't really tell how big the island is, so there could be six or seven tribes in constant warfare, making the ones who are still alive higher than usual level.
I mean, they were able to take out their own 'Bull God', which may or may not have been quite the feat, depending on the divinity of said bull.
My point is, there are way too many variables that we don't have the answers to to be calling Durkon and Diago's beatings unbelievable.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Then that's a foolish wish that will never be granted, given that this is largely unimportant scene. If Rich wanted us to know how it happened, he would have shown us. The whole point of the joke is that it happened in spite of expectations.

Actually, RIch HAS broken down fights before, specifically the two times Miko soloed the Order. Rich tends to stick to the rules, believe it or not. So if a 13th level cleric and a 7th(?) level fighter get taken down by a group of ??? level orcs, there should be a rules logical reason for it, in addition to "Author's Fiat."


Further, your choice of wording is poor to the point of obfuscating your meaning, as there is a qualitative difference between a DM and an author. An author is not required to "play fair" with his characters (because there are no players behind them); a DM is. By asking for information from a DM, you demonstrate that you don't understand this difference and expect Rich to abide by rules that he is under no obligation to follow.

Actually, I've always been taught to TRY and play fair with the characters in the stories I wrote back in college. Nothing makes a story more boring than either letting the characters have a cakewalk hrough the plot, or crush them at every turn. If you write that your characters have certian abilities, they SHOULD be able to use them. You should also avoid adding new abilities just before the character needs them.


Finally, calling a female poster whom you don't know personally "sweetie" is demeaning at best, sexist at worst. My boyfriend can call me "sweetie" if he wishes. You? Cannot.

You and I have had pleasant conversaions from time to time in the past, and I'd like to KEEP it that way, so I AIN'T touching this one with a ten foot pole. :smallbiggrin:
(Other than to say, "You're right!")

[Avilan the Grey]

In some respects, this is DM cheating. You were not fighting PC vs kobold, you were fighting PC vs DM.
The kobolds are level one in part because they don't do these things. When they set traps, they should be largely first level traps, of low damage and low spot roles. Recall here that traps can misfire and hit the one setting them up with bad rolls, and as first level critters, kobolds are just not very skilled.
Now the DM can balance the situation out with XP and treasure according to the actual CR, but it is still a dubious idea.

I don't agree. As with players, (at least in our group over the years), the reason why people or humanoids are level 1 is because lack of encounters and XP, not because of stupidity. Besides, just because most Kobolds i that society were now lvl 1, does not mean that the ones that set the traps originally were. They were also led by a battle hardened Shaman.

[Breltar]

Hmm, just thought of something... how many spells did Durkon use in the original escape 'fight'? Has there been the requisite time between now and then for him to have regained his spells?

Also, maybe Durkon used all his protection spells earlier to protect him from the largest threat on the island... the trees?:smallbiggrin:

[ishnar]

I've seen that fish before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)

Oh well. I hope it isn't a sign of things to come.

Hrm, i thought you would be pointing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). I don't get the connection with the page you linked.

[factotum]

Hmm, just thought of something... how many spells did Durkon use in the original escape 'fight'?

The same thing would have applied then--if Durkon had whipped out the magical big stick they wouldn't have had to escape from the orcs because they would have crushed them like ants, ASSUMING the Orcs are all bog-standard Monster Manual variants. There's no reason to suppose that they are.

As for why the orcs haven't spread out from their island to conquer others if they're that powerful, who says they want to? Generally evil doesn't mean you automatically want to rule the world...just look at Belkar, who really couldn't give a damn about ruling the world so long as he still gets to kill things.

[Paragon Badger]

There is no reason to believe these orcs are any more powerful than the standard tribe in the Monster Manual. Given that most (99.9%) of the world is below lvl 5, making an isolated island that just happens to have insanely powerful orcs that have not expanded to conquer other islands or civilizations and are still using primitive weapons and are still prone to worshopping a puppet sounds like a load of contrived nonsense.

If Therkla were involved I could see the case for Durkon being captured. But there is no evidence to suggest her involvement, and if I'm right about what Rich is planning, he won't want Durkon to notice her involvement. Having her being involved without Durkon's knowledge is also a cop-out, because we didn't see the actual fight.

I guess my point is: I want the details of that fight, Dungeon Master! :smallmad:

Round 1: 8 (or 6, if using Hexes) Mid-level orcs surround Durkon with their surprise round. (You can hear them shouting first) They attack the flat-footed cleric.
Round 2: Those orcs attack again.
Round 3: Do I really need to go on?
Round 4: I think I do.
Round 5: Yeah.

Yeesh. Not everything can be broken down to higher level beats lower level.

[Eric]

In some respects, this is DM cheating. You were not fighting PC vs kobold, you were fighting PC vs DM.

DM'd a test scenario: characters vs a dragon.

1) Red Dragon with more HD than TPL but they got the ambush, the dragon was on the ground and unsupported. The party were a little hurt but the attack was easy.

2) Blue Dragon with about 3/4 the TPL but the dragon got the ambush, the dragon did a flyby and used his breath weapon. Targeted the mage first, then the thief and the cleric. The two fighters left didn't have much in the way of missile weapons. The party all killed in about 7 rounds.

Mostly to show how the PCs had to play SMART and that even a seemingly easy encounter could see characters dead if the party got too blase.

[Eric]

Actually, RIch HAS broken down fights before, specifically the two times Miko soloed the Order. Rich tends to stick to the rules, believe it or not. So if a 13th level cleric and a 7th(?) level fighter get taken down by a group of ??? level orcs, there should be a rules logical reason for it, in addition to "Author's Fiat."


Please, everyone wanting the fight to make sense, have a look at the rest of the comic.

How come we ALL know the comic is showing a railroad plot but we don't want the one panel which shows it is a railroad to be a railroad.

Heck, take a look at the opening scenes of Baldurs' Gate: Shadows of Amn. You're buff enough to take on high level encounters but a bunch of thieves take you out without a fight.

RAILROAD.

Just enjoy the ride here.

[DrivinAllNight]

as far as them getting caught by low level orcs, what kind of effect does Elan and his levels have on the capture considering he was working to get caught as soon as the net came down? And elan does negate all rationale thought within a ten foot radius or something like that?

[Wixit]

Finally, calling a female poster whom you don't know personally "sweetie" is demeaning at best, sexist at worst. My boyfriend can call me "sweetie" if he wishes. You? Cannot.

The urge to respond to this is simply too strong.

You are in no position to dictate his behavior. They are, of course, under the scrutiny of the Board Watch, but other than that he is free to use whatever words he sees fit.

I would like to say I don't approve it's use in that particular context, but your over the top "can't touch this" response was unneccessary.
Hope I didn't push any berserk buttons.

On topic. I can see Durkon's spell fizzling (dozens of melee and ranged troops are implied, and it's reasonable to assume they had some higher level support), but I agree with some of the posters that the joke seemed a bit drawn out. Perhaps if they talked about the rescue plan for the first 3 panels and Elan appropriately shortened his boring Failure Is Your Only Option speech (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FailureIsTheOnlyOption).

[dworkin]

Regarding getting captured, does AD&D 3rd have rules for grappling and other close in fighting? What happens if 25 orcs decide to sit on you? Especially if half of them rush you from the flank or rear?

My only experience is off 1st and 2nd ed, both of which had bizzaro unarmed fighting rules. I'm guessing 3rd has equally obscure rules.

[Dread Cthulhu]

Fantastic. Something which manages to refer to a trope virtually by name always is.

Elan isn't Dangerously Genre Savvy. Surely that's only for villains? Not to mention that DGS implies that they have a level of intelligence outside cliches.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Regarding getting captured, does AD&D 3rd have rules for grappling and other close in fighting? What happens if 25 orcs decide to sit on you? Especially if half of them rush you from the flank or rear?

My only experience is off 1st and 2nd ed, both of which had bizzaro unarmed fighting rules. I'm guessing 3rd has equally obscure rules.

Yeah, 3rd Ed. also has really complicated grapple and/or unarmed combat rules. :smallannoyed:

Maybe 4th Ed will fix those rules, but after what, 35 years? Bad grapple rules are almost traditional to D&D. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

As for why the orcs haven't spread out from their island to conquer others if they're that powerful, who says they want to? Generally evil doesn't mean you automatically want to rule the world...just look at Belkar, who really couldn't give a damn about ruling the world so long as he still gets to kill things.
Which would mean Belkar would fairly quickly leave the island and go searching for victims.
The same applies to other evil motivations. There just aren't enough victims for the orcs to be staying there voluntarily unless they are wimps in effect hiding from more powerful foes. If these orcs are powerful, they want some victims to kill, rape, beat up, rob, eat... and they won't find enough on the island.
So these are generic orcs. Some may be above 1st level, but the PCs should roll them up without a sweat.

[stsasser]

...are still prone to worshopping a puppet sounds like a load of contrived nonsense.

if me smarter, me might be insulted

stsasser the banjoist

[El_Jefe]

I can't really believe people want a by round detail of the fight. Maybe the Giant will make fun of that later.

Somebody once asked a Sci-Fi script writer how long it takes the starship to travel from X planet to Y at Z warp speed. His answer was the "speed of the plot".

That's the same answer I give to my players when they ask "how many days to Waterdeep or to the Big bad place where the Big fight/plot exposition scene will take place?" The speed of the plot people. And they love it.

So how come the orcs beat Durkon and named NPC I can't remember the name of right now (no pun intended-seriously!)?

BECAUSE IT IS FUNNY and this is a webCOMIC!!!

[Hallavast]

Then that's a foolish wish that will never be granted, given that this is largely unimportant scene. If Rich wanted us to know how it happened, he would have shown us. The whole point of the joke is that it happened in spite of expectations.
You're absolutely right. It is a foolish hope, but he has been known to give us a rundown of behind the scenes fights before. No harm in trying is there?



Further, your choice of wording is poor to the point of obfuscating your meaning, as there is a qualitative difference between a DM and an author. An author is not required to "play fair" with his characters (because there are no players behind them); a DM is. By asking for information from a DM, you demonstrate that you don't understand this difference and expect Rich to abide by rules that he is under no obligation to follow. Sorry to confuse you. For the record though, authors of fantasy material also have rules they must follow to be taken seriously, and since Rich has been following a rules set astoundingly similar to that of Dungeons and Dragons, I (and likely others) tend to make these little associations. Again, sorry for the confusion.



Finally, calling a female poster whom you don't know personally "sweetie" is demeaning at best, sexist at worst. My boyfriend can call me "sweetie" if he wishes. You? Cannot.

Dude, welcome to the internet. I really don't know or care what your real gender is. I call people "sweetie" regardless of gender all the time. You really ought not take it personally. But if you are indeed not a sweet person, then I truly am sorry for the mistake.

Finally, I simply can not hold back a smile when someone over the internet tells me how or how not to address them. So... :smallsmile:

[Paragon Badger]

Sorry to confuse you. For the record though, authors of fantasy material also have rules they must follow to be taken seriously, and since Rich has been following a rules set astoundingly similar to that of Dungeons and Dragons, I (and likely others) tend to make these little associations. Again, sorry for the confusion.

Yet Rich has differed with them on some accounts.

I generally assume everything in the comic is by D&D's rules, but not strictly.


[QUOTE]Finally, calling a female poster whom you don't know personally "sweetie" is demeaning at best, sexist at worst. My boyfriend can call me "sweetie" if he wishes. You? Cannot.

Dude, welcome to the internet. I really don't know or care what your real gender is. I call people "sweetie" regardless of gender all the time. You really ought not take it personally. But if you are indeed not a sweet person, then I truly am sorry for the mistake.

Finally, I simply can not hold back a smile when someone over the internet tells me how or how not to address them. So... :smallsmile:

Didn't Barack Obama get in trouble for calling a fan sweetie, and then publicly apologized?

Seriously, it's a term of endearment. :P ...Unless used sarcastically or condescendingly or whatever.

People are too easily offended these days. Especcially when they whip out the ol' sexist/racist/whatever-ist card to justify the excuse to act self-righteous.

Le sigh.