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NobleSavage
2008-05-12, 11:35 PM
I'm looking for rogue variants that are more melee oriented and less skill based. I've been taking a hard look at the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and have considered multi-classing with swashbuckler (Daring Outlaw) or ranger (is there an appropriate feat for this? Swift Hunter, but no rogue one?) and will almost certainly take a double dip of Swordsage later on to pick up the Shadow Blade feat and Assassin's stance (is there a variant that gains maneuvers/stances at a reduced pace?). For this build, I'm looking to deal a large amount of SA damage, using Weap Finesse and TWF, as well as pump in some alternate methods of damage (Dex, Int), while still being able to sneak around. Ideas/suggestions?

sonofzeal
2008-05-12, 11:42 PM
is there a variant that gains maneuvers/stances at a reduced pace?
Actually, yes. This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), combined with the fact that Martial Study and Martial Stance are Fighter Bonus Feats, gives you a Rogue who has a decent number of maneuvers at the cost of losing sneak attack. Most people would prefer Swordsage, but this does get you a better skill list and more skillpoints, so I could see it getting played.

NobleSavage
2008-05-12, 11:48 PM
I actually considered this, but it has several problems: 1. I don't want to give up SA, 2. You would have a very limited initiator level, and 3. You can only take Martial Study a maximum of three times.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-13, 12:01 AM
I think you are already on the right path:

Rogue (unless you are dying for powers, forget psychic rogue) + Swashbuckler + daring outlaw. Toss in a dash of swordsage maybe a level in lion spiritual totem barbarian (depending on your maneuver choices of coarse) and you should do just fine (Its most important to keep your BAB as high as possibly for multiple attacks). Obtain the penetrating blow (I am reasonably sure thats the name) variant from dungeon scape. Max UMD. Low levels obtain a wand of acid splash (real cheap ranged touch attacks). Any skills you have are just a bonus.

Race to be: Neraph (or pick up the feat Neraph's Charge), Planer Handbook.

Also check out the craven feat.

cupkeyk
2008-05-13, 12:29 AM
I think you are looking for the simple variant fighter, possibly combined with the thug variant, both from UA. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-fighter)

Or enter the Nightsong Infiltrator Prestige class asap via ranger/rog. It requires alertness, but if you take four levels of ranger you can get a familiar that grants you alertness via the Cityscape variant class feature in the Cityscape web enhancement.

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-13, 12:29 PM
Or you could use the Warrior generic class. You get to pick class skills, so just choose your favorite rogue skills. You'll get good HD and full BAB plus plenty of feats to customize. Best part, if you use some of those feats for generic sneak attack, you'll be dealing 5d6 sneak attack damage at level 8. I've done this and it is a very solid choice. With a good intelligence (along with good Dex) you'll be a very capable fighter and skill monkey.

Vortling
2008-05-13, 12:58 PM
While it is homebrew, the ToB rogue class variant from Fax_Celestis is close to what you want.

Linky (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)

Gaiwecoor
2008-05-13, 04:02 PM
Or you could use the Warrior generic class. You get to pick class skills, so just choose your favorite rogue skills. You'll get good HD and full BAB plus plenty of feats to customize. Best part, if you use some of those feats for generic sneak attack, you'll be dealing 5d6 sneak attack damage at level 8. I've done this and it is a very solid choice. With a good intelligence (along with good Dex) you'll be a very capable fighter and skill monkey.

Is that really how it works? I had always thought the +2d6 from Sneak Attack and the +3d6 from Improved Sneak Attack were cumulative; i.e. didn't stack.

I suppose it could make sense, since it would limit you to a +4d6 SA at level 15. Yeah. +9d6 sounds better, but it's still pretty early for that kind of SA damage.

Can anybody clear that up?

Draz74
2008-05-13, 04:16 PM
Is that really how it works? I had always thought the +2d6 from Sneak Attack and the +3d6 from Improved Sneak Attack were cumulative; i.e. didn't stack.

I suppose it could make sense, since it would limit you to a +4d6 SA at level 15. Yeah. +9d6 sounds better, but it's still pretty early for that kind of SA damage.

Can anybody clear that up?

I'm pretty sure it stacks.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-13, 04:45 PM
I'd go for regular Rogue with the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (Dungeonscape, page 12): you deal 1/2 sneak attack damage to those normally immune, but only when you flank them. You'll need a flanking partner.

I wouldn't go for TWF (too feat-intensive and cash-intensive for the payback) but would instead concentrate on getting more SA damage. You start with Craven (Champions of Ruin) for +1 point/character level on each sneak attack. As these extra points are not from damage dice, they'll be multiplied on a critical hit. Use a keen rapier for a 15-20 threat range.

Get your rapier up to +3 as fast as possible, and then buy Greater Demolition (for constructs) and Greater Truedeath (for undead) weapon augment crystals. You can swap in whichever you need to do full sneak attack damage, and you won't be restricted to flanking. You'll want to keep enhancing this rapier up to +5 as fast as your funds allow, because you won't get any sneak attack damage if you don't hit. Having only one weapon instead of going for TWF means you don't have to split your weapon enhancement funds.

Mundane Hide is the best way to qualify for sneak attack. The Shadow/Improved Shadow/Greater Shadow armor property gives you +5/+10/+15 to your Hide check. Being able to Hide (almost) all the time is incredibly powerful, as being "visually undetectable" gives you +2 to your attacks and denies opponents their DEX bonus to AC (unless they have Uncanny Dodge). Go for one level of Shadowdancer ASAP, feat-intensive as that PrC's requirements are, to get the superior Supernatural version of Hide in Plain Sight. If your DM allows flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), take two to accelerate your progress. You'll want to be human for the bonus feat that offers, too. Remember that there are options in place of Dodge, such as Expeditious Dodge if you have a high speed. Note also that you can buy Mobility as an armor enhancement, saving you one feat. (If you don't have enough cash initially, you can take the feat and retrain later using the PH2 rules.) Qualifying for Shadowdancer also satisfies the prerequisites for Spring Attack, so you can take that as your next feat. Now you can Spring, Hide right in their faces, attack for full sneak attack damage (doubling the Craven and weapon enhancement numbers if you crit), and Spring away. You'll Tumble at full speed when you get your skill up to that level anyway, so you'll almost never provoke AoOs. A Rogue's low hit points won't matter too much if you almost never get hit.

For multiclassing, in addition to the single level of Shadowdancer, I recommend at least one level of Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). This gives you Knowledge plus two other domains, which is a big boost for a one-level dip. The Cleric's good saves (Fortitude and Will) shore up your Rogue's weak points. You'll get spells like Grave Strike (sneak attack undead for full damage), or Summon Monster I to create your own flanking partner. But the big win is the granted powers and spells of any two domains you pick. Just some examples: pick Time and you get Improved Initiative plus the True Strike spell; pick Celerity and your base speed increases by 10' and you get Expeditious Retreat; pick Pride and you get to reroll a 1 on any saving throw (once). (Or if you want to test your DM's limits, take Planning and Undeath and now you can buy a Nightstick and go for Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). I wouldn't do that myself, but it just shows how much boost a couple of domains can give your character.)

While you might not care too much about skills, having lots of skill points enables you to learn skill tricks also. Learn as many as your level allows, and you'll see the melee power that skill points can buy you. Acrobatic Backstab gives you one guaranteed sneak attack each combat even before your flanking partner gets into position. Check Complete Scoundrel for others.

Hawriel
2008-05-13, 05:18 PM
The ninja class from rokugan suite your needs.

It has full bab. good reflex saves. and up to 10D6 sneak attack. Poison use, speed of darkness (Int bonus adds to Initiative). Shadow run (con bonus X 5 added to speed), blind fighting, deflect arrows and uncanny dodge, Ninja Dodge (dodge bonus to AC up to +5) It has almost all of the rogue skills.

Down side no evasion or other special rogue abilites. 4x skill points, no UMD. No trap skill bonus. Disable devise is a class skill.

The class is in the Rokugan campain book. May also be in Oriental Adventures. Although might be a little different.

Cuddly
2008-05-13, 05:39 PM
Shadowdancer is too feat intensive for HiPS- pick up the dark template (LA +1), or a collar of umbral metamorphisis (get the dark template for like ten minutes [or forever, depending on how much you want to spend] everyday, broken up however you like), both from... Tome of Magic?

And TWF is definitely the right route to take- if you want to do lots of damage from a single strike, go PA with a full base attack class. Otherwise, TWF is what you want.

I would go LA1 (buy off)/feat rogue 2/swashbuckler 3/swordsage 2/sneak attack fighter x.

Use daring outlaw to get your feat rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack for SA, and sneak attack fighter trades skills for SA prgoression, full BAB, and d10 HD.

Feats I'd get:
Kung-fu genius (from Dragon), int to AC instead of wis
Daring Outlaw
Weapon Finesse
Shadow blade
TWF, Imp TWF
Craven
Maiming Strike (from exemplars of evil, trade 2d6 sneak attack for 1 point charisma damage)
Darkstalker (from lords of madness, hide from scent, blindsight, tremorsense)

Curmudgeon
2008-05-13, 06:27 PM
Shadowdancer is too feat intensive for HiPS- pick up the dark template (LA +1), or a collar of umbral metamorphisis (get the dark template for like ten minutes [or forever, depending on how much you want to spend] everyday, broken up however you like), both from... Tome of Magic? You're overlooking the fact that these are vastly different versions of Hide in Plain Sight, Cuddly. The Dark Creature Template's HiPS is Extraordinary, not Supernatural, and like all the other Extraordinary HiPS versions, doesn't override the need for cover/concealment. Check it out; it doesn't have a statement like this (highlighted):
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. Extraordinary HiPS takes care of the "not being observed" requirement, but not the cover/concealment one. Supernatural HiPS satisfies both requirements.

Yes, it's feat-intensive. I think the expense is justified only if you double up the return on that investment and also take Spring Attack. But there aren't any cheaper alternatives that supercharge mundane Hide.

Cuddly
2008-05-13, 06:41 PM
In that case, you have a couple options:
Get a ring of blinking, and the far more useful feats mageslayer and pierce magical concealment. This also sets you up for getting pierce magical protection and a wand of wraithstrike. That's sneak attacks vs. AC 10, pretty much all the time.

Dip a level of warlock, get darkness and devil's sight.

Both, imo, are far superior to getting the three worthless feats for shadowdancer, not to mention ranks in perform: dance. The feat alternatives to the shadowdancer required ones are so much better- dex to damage, 2 SA dice, dex to hit, hiding from virtually every Ex ability to find you, and int to ac.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-13, 08:57 PM
In that case, you have a couple options:
Get a ring of blinking, and the far more useful feats mageslayer and pierce magical concealment. This also sets you up for getting pierce magical protection
So you're talking about four feats here:
Blind-Fight
Mage Slayer
Pierce Magical Concealment
Pierce Magical Protection
Blind Fight has some general utility, so that's fine. But Mage Slayer isn't useful most of the time:
Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat. In melee against a caster they'll know that they need to step back 5' to cast rather than cast defensively. Net gain: big whoop. And of course the other feats only work against enemies with active spell protections. No help against mundane Hide for Pierce Magical Concealment, or against permanent magic items for Pierce Magical Protection, for example.

Conversely, my approach involves the following three feats:

Expeditious Dodge
Mobility as an armor enhancement, not a feat
Combat Reflexes
Spring Attack


and a wand of wraithstrike. That's sneak attacks vs. AC 10, pretty much all the time. No, pretty much never for that wand. Wraithstrike only lasts one round, and using a wand requires a minimum of one standard action:
Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. With a Belt of Battle you can give yourself an extra standard action, but only once a day. (A Wand of Extended Wraithstrike will extend the duration to 2 rounds, allowing a full round's use of the spell every other round. But that's different.)

Dip a level of warlock, get darkness and devil's sight. That's OK, but it doesn't give you Hide in Plain Sight; Darkness is only partial concealment, so you still can't Hide while being observed. Also, why take the level dip if you've got Use Magic Device? You can have Deeper Darkness on the tip of your rapier so that it's active whenever you draw it (free with a move action), and Ebon Eyes in a wand will work like the Devil's Sight invocation. You'll need to burn wand charges to keep the spell active, but that's got to be be cheaper than taking a whole level in another class for one invocation.

Both, imo, are far superior to getting the three worthless feats for shadowdancer, not to mention ranks in perform: dance.
With the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight, Combat Reflexes isn't so worthless. So you come around a corner and lose initiative to some enemies; you're flat-footed. But you're also hidden! With the Supernatural HiPS, you Hide every time you move. Unless they've really pumped their Spot checks, nobody will see you. So they'll likely walk right past you, and each time you'll get to make an AoO -- and maybe continue to Hide while attacking, too, though that is more difficult because of the -20 penalty. With Supernatural HiPS you get to make multiple sneak attacks even when you're flat-footed! Also, because you were moving you've got +2 to your AC from Expeditious Dodge -- against everybody, not just a single target -- so even if they strike blindly into your square you're hard to hit. Your three feats also include Spring Attack, and that's nothing but worthwhile.

And don't even try to make the case that 5 skill points is going to matter to a human Rogue by the time they get to level 8 (the minimum level for Shadowdancer). Heck, you could even make some gp from your skill in Perform (Dance).

The feat alternatives to the shadowdancer required ones are so much better- dex to damage, 2 SA dice, dex to hit, hiding from virtually every Ex ability to find you, and int to ac. And what feats are these? You don't get those benefits from the chain of four feats you suggested as an alternative to my three feats. Say what you mean, please. I may even agree with you -- but we can't know until you spell things out.

Cuddly
2008-05-13, 10:02 PM
So you're talking about four feats here:
Blind-Fight
Mage Slayer
Pierce Magical Concealment
Pierce Magical Protection
Blind Fight has some general utility, so that's fine. But Mage Slayer isn't useful most of the time: In melee against a caster they'll know that they need to step back 5' to cast rather than cast defensively. Net gain: big whoop. And of course the other feats only work against enemies with active spell protections. No help against mundane Hide for Pierce Magical Concealment, or against permanent magic items for Pierce Magical Protection, for example.

Thicket of blades- no movement.
And you don't have to pick up PMP if you don't want it. My THREE[/unnecessary font] are A HUNDRED TIMES BETTER.


No, pretty much never for that wand. Wraithstrike only lasts one round, and using a wand requires a minimum of one standard action:

Actually, errata fixed that. Wraithstrike, from a wand, is a swift action. Book of Rules.


is only partial concealment, so you still can't Hide while being observed. Also, why take the level dip if you've got Use Magic Device? You can have Deeper Darkness on the tip of your rapier so that it's active whenever you draw it (free with a move action), and Ebon Eyes in a wand will work like the Devil's Sight invocation. You'll need to burn wand charges to keep the spell active, but that's got to be be cheaper than taking a whole level in another class for one invocation.

Because you can have Devil's Sight and Darkness up all day without burning wands.


With the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight, Combat Reflexes isn't so worthless. So you come around a corner and lose initiative to some enemies; you're flat-footed. But you're also hidden!

Same deal with a ring of blinking or the darkness spell.


Unless they've really pumped their Spot checks, nobody will see you. So they'll likely walk right past you, and each time you'll get to make an AoO -- and maybe continue to Hide while attacking, too, though that is more difficult because of the -20 penalty. With Supernatural HiPS you get to make multiple sneak attacks even when you're flat-footed! Also, because you were moving you've got +2 to your AC from Expeditious Dodge -- against everybody, not just a single target -- so even if they strike blindly into your square you're hard to hit. Your three feats also include Spring Attack, and that's nothing but worthwhile.

While that's nice and all, it's a rare situation where combat reflexes ever comes into play (unless you're huge or something). Certainly not worth the feat. Furthermore, spring attack is totally useless. If you want to get damage from a single attack roll, why are you playing a rogue? If you want to move and get damage, play a scout or dervish.



And don't even try to make the case that 5 skill points is going to matter to a human Rogue by the time they get to level 8 (the minimum level for Shadowdancer). Heck, you could even make some gp from your skill in Perform (Dance).

You could also make some gp off of sleight of hand. Perform: dance is a total waste of skill points.


And what feats are these? You don't get those benefits from the chain of four feats you suggested as an alternative to my three feats. Say what you mean, please. I may even agree with you -- but we can't know until you spell things out.

That by not taking those three feats for shadowdancer, you could take much better ones. Shadowblade, craven, daring outlaw, weapon finesse, kung-fu genius, darkstalker, maiming strike, TWF tree (or just one TWF feat, it greatly adds to your damage).

[edit]
Rules Compendium; not book of rules.

NobleSavage
2008-05-13, 10:18 PM
Right, so this all is good, interesting advice, things I've thought over for some time now, as I loves me some rogue. That said, I was really looking for alternate rogue classes abilities, as I've grown a little tired of being the skill monkey utility man, and was looking to flex my melee powers and become the true blender I am deep down inside. The build I'm throwing together is for a superhero game and, as such, we're allowed certain abilities bought through a point system. The abilities I've bought are

Dimension Door as a Sp, once every 1d4 rounds
Hips as Shadowdancer
Increased Dex that scales with level
A feat every 2 levels instead of every 3

and at level four I'll be able to purchase a +20 to hide.

Nasty, I know.

So, right now my build looks something like this
Half-Elf (for fun and rp-ness)
1 Rogue1 Darkstalker
2 Rogue2 Wep Fin
3 Rogue3
4 UrbRanger1 (TWF) Swift Hunter*
5 Swordsage1
6 UrbRanger2 (Shadow Blade)
7 Rogue4?
8 Swordsage (Craven)
9 Shadow Sun Ninja1?
10 SSN2?(Quicken SLA)

*Know its Scout, not Rogue, but I'm pretty sure my DM will ok it. Is there a Rogue one?

Does this look good? I'm not married to SSN, but I figure I have time to decide how much it fits the character as we're starting at level 3 or 4. I'm going to see if I can take the Solitary Hunter and Penetrating Strike alternate abilities. By level 8 I should have +5d6 SA (in Assassin's Stance) +Craven(8)+Dex(6)+1d6 Shortsword with a +6/+1 BAB, translating into +11/+11/+6 full attack, all before magic modifiers. Anything else? Other PrCs that'd be fun and games?

Cuddly
2008-05-13, 10:31 PM
Alternate rogue: sneak attack fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)

Lose feats, gain sneak attack.

Take three levels of swashbuckler and the feat daring outlaw (get rid of the ranger levels). Swashbuckler 3 gets you int to damage (nice!) and daring outlaw lets your rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for the purposes of SA, uncanny dodge, and something else. In this case, the feat just gives you 2 SA dice.

Even levels of rogue are only good for the skill points, and seeing as how you want the stabbity, go with odd levels of rogue/sa fighter.

Remember: you cannot take any actions after dimension dooring. None. Nada.

You can, however, make a full attack action after dimension dooring or otherwise teleporting with 4(?) levels in the PrC telflammar shadowlord.

NobleSavage
2008-05-13, 11:29 PM
Yes, seen that. Several times. Don't want it as you don't get many skills or points through Swb, notably no H&MS or UMD.

I like the Ranger levels, Urban Track allows for a bounty hunter feel, while the Fav Enemy gives me +4 and +2 vs certain species, also allowing me to SA them if they normally don't allow SA.

Any other PrCs that are easy to qualify for? Shadowlord is a little feat intensive.

CactusAir
2008-05-13, 11:29 PM
Having more conditions you can SA under >>> having more SA die, IMO

I personally like Rogue (or Factotum) 1/Wizard5/Unseen Seer 5/Divine Oracle 4/Unseen Seer+4/Wizard+1

(Persisted) Hunter's Eye gives you up to +8 SA die (and you already have 4), and depending on how you interpret the rules you might even be able to empower the spell.

Rogue/Casters have dozens of ways of making SA possible. Wracking Touch, Invisibility, Distract Target, Grease, Deep Slumber, etc. Sniper's Shot removes the range cap on SA.

Guidance of the Avatar and/or Divine Insight make you an excellent skillmonkey.

If you need extra attacks, spells like Cloud of Knives of Steeldance provide...

Yeah, as always... casters do it better. *sigh*

Aquillion
2008-05-13, 11:49 PM
Having more conditions you can SA under >>> having more SA die, IMO

I personally like Rogue (or Factotum) 1/Wizard5/Unseen Seer 5/Divine Oracle 4/Unseen Seer+4/Wizard+1

(Persisted) Hunter's Eye gives you up to +8 SA die (and you already have 4), and depending on how you interpret the rules you might even be able to empower the spell.

Rogue/Casters have dozens of ways of making SA possible. Wracking Touch, Invisibility, Distract Target, Grease, Deep Slumber, etc. Sniper's Shot removes the range cap on SA.

Guidance of the Avatar and/or Divine Insight make you an excellent skillmonkey.

If you need extra attacks, spells like Cloud of Knives of Steeldance provide...

Yeah, as always... casters do it better. *sigh*If you're going to mention Rogue and Factotum, the logical thing to do is to take one Factotum level at level 1, plus Able Learner so you can keep every skill as a class skill... including, of course, Iaijutsu Focus. You're going to want Able Learner in that build in any case for obvious reasons (otherwise the Wizard levels will kill your rogue skills.) I know the OP asked for less skill based, of course, but they also still wanted to be able to sneak around, and Iaijutsu Focus is a skill that directly applies to melee.

At that point you're hardly a rogue anymore, but you are doing more sneak attack damage than most rogues could manage, at least with your buffs up. And you can cast. And use skills.

...that probably isn't what the OP was looking for, though...