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Occasional Sage
2008-05-13, 01:13 AM
I'm one of a group of four in an ongoing 3.5 campaign, and currently the other three players are running casters; one has recently brought in a druid who capabilities I'm unsure of, but essentially I'm going to be it for close combat.

So, the question I pose to Forumites: what would your concept be for the best melee build? We're playing strict core without racial templates available to us, and are STRONGLY DISCOURAGED from using Level Adjusted races (I *might* be able to make an argument for an LA2 or less, but....) Whether or not the UA variant classes are available is unclear, but psionics are NOT in-scope.

Ideas? Anyone? Please!

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 01:28 AM
What level? If it's past level 5 or 6, then that druid is probably going to do better than you are on the front lines, especially if he chooses his Companion well. That said, Tome of Battle is the best source of martial pwnage you'll find short of CoDzilla. Barbarians are a bit boring, but always a solid and dependable martial class. I'm a big fan of Improved Trip while Raging, with some (Wilderness) Rogue thrown in their for Sneak Attack while they're down. With that many squishies behind you, you'll want to play Battlefield Control, and that involves reach weapons, high Dex and Combat Reflexes, and either Improved Trip or Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) (which is NOT a psionic feat in any way, it merely happens to have been first printed in XPHB and is fair game for any melee character). Crusader (ToB) is good for this, with the Thicket of Blades stance. If ToB is out, the Knight class from PHB2 is another possibility. I'd still go for the trip-barbarian first though.

Cheesegear
2008-05-13, 01:29 AM
Strict Core, you say? Human or Dwarf. I'd take human.

Well, that's pretty easy then, a few levels of fighter (2 or 4, never 3), then Barbarian or Paladin all the way, depending on which route you want to go. Barbarian for damage, or Paladin for defense...
If you're going for straight-damage (i.e; Fighter/Barbarian), and aren't expected to do much outside of combat, go for Half-Orc.
Or see if your DM will let you use the Dwarven Defender PrC if you're going for defense (I'd consider it 'Core'), and go for that.

And Clerics/Druids are good in combat and can help you a LOT if not playing 'healbot' mode.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-13, 01:34 AM
What level? If it's past level 5 or 6, then that druid is probably going to do better than you are on the front lines, especially if he chooses his Companion well.Oops, good catch. Level 11.

That said, Tome of Battle is the best source of martial pwnage you'll find short of CoDzilla. Barbarians are a bit boring, but always a solid and dependable martial class. I'm a big fan of Improved Trip while Raging, with some (Wilderness) Rogue thrown in their for Sneak Attack while they're down. With that many squishies behind you, you'll want to play Battlefield Control, and that involves reach weapons, high Dex and Combat Reflexes, and either Improved Trip or Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) (which is NOT a psionic feat in any way, it merely happens to have been first printed in XPHB and is fair game for any melee character). Crusader (ToB) is good for this, with the Thicket of Blades stance. If ToB is out, the Knight class from PHB2 is another possibility. I'd still go for the trip-barbarian first though.

A two-handed flail and a chunk of power attack has crossed my mind, but a few dice of sneak attack is a tasty thought, thanks!

ToB and such are out, though; I'm restricted to PH, DMG, MM, and perhaps the stuff that's leaked to the SRD from other sources.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-13, 01:39 AM
Strict Core, you say? Human or Dwarf. I'd take human.

Well, that's pretty easy then, a few levels of fighter (2 or 4, never 3), then Barbarian or Paladin all the way, depending on which route you want to go. Barbarian for damage, or Paladin for defense...
If you're going for straight-damage (i.e; Fighter/Barbarian), and aren't expected to do much outside of combat, go for Half-Orc.
Or see if your DM will let you use the Dwarven Defender PrC if you're going for defense (I'd consider it 'Core'), and go for that.

And Clerics/Druids are good in combat and can help you a LOT if not playing 'healbot' mode.

I've looked at the DwDef PrC, but why wouldn't people just take a 5' away and leave me stuck until I get bored enough to take a -2Str for the rest of the fight? Other than the not-moving thing it's a cool class, but until you can surpass it I just don't get the class.

Tengu
2008-05-13, 01:44 AM
With core-only, your best bet is a trip specialist using a reach weapon. Get some way of getting large, like a stack of Enlarge Person potions.

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 01:46 AM
A two-handed flail and a chunk of power attack has crossed my mind, but a few dice of sneak attack is a tasty thought, thanks!
I'd go with a reach weapon, to play up the Battlefield Control aspect while your squishy friends neutralize the enemies. Spiked Chains are always popular for this, if you have the spare feat.

As to Dwarven Defender - they do very well in restricted spaces like corridors or cave passages. They're one of the hardest things to kill in the game, but you're right that they lack the means to hold aggro. Still, they have their uses, and one of my favorite characters was one.

Farmer42
2008-05-13, 01:49 AM
You get your AC bonus without stancing, and you get healthy DR/-. And don't forget that the capstone allows the DwDef to 5' step each round. Add to that full BAB and two good saves (fort and ref) and you have one of the best options for melee in core, where best is mediocre compared to the rest of core.

Morandir Nailo
2008-05-13, 01:50 AM
Seconding the tripper Barbarian. Add Fighter levels for the bonus feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and possibly the TWF chain. Pump your Dex, and wield a spiked chain for maximum reach and effect. Whenever you get an AoO, use it to trip. You get a free attack if you're successful, and later you get another AoO when they stand up.

Two things about your caster buddies:
1 - Between them they have a gazillion spells slots. Make sure they prepare plenty of buffs for you. Enlarge Person, Bull's Str, Cat's Grace, etc. will be your friends.

2 - Prepare to be very, very outclassed as the group levels. Assuming they live (the Druid will, unless the player's a moron), they're going to leave you in the dust after level 5 or 6.

Mor

Tengu
2008-05-13, 01:51 AM
And don't forget that the capstone allows the DwDef to 5' step each round.

That sounds hilarious when taken out of context.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-13, 02:15 AM
2 - Prepare to be very, very outclassed as the group levels. Assuming they live (the Druid will, unless the player's a moron), they're going to leave you in the dust after level 5 or 6.
Mor

Yeah, tell me about it. I'm also SERIOUSLY considering letting us all rot and bring in a dwarven wizard with a slew of Crafting feats, including Craft Construct. If nobody wants to be the meatshield....

What about (since it's in the SRD and therefore [presumably] fair game) a Dragon Disciple build? They're subprime in other venues, but natural armor and a pile of stat bonuses don't seem bad. Since the caster level(s) need to be spontaneous, that equates to sorceror and lots of True Strikes.

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 02:33 AM
What level is this game? It makes a huge difference in what we're going to recommend if this is a lvl3 game or a lvl15 game.

Aquillion
2008-05-13, 02:34 AM
Yeah, tell me about it. I'm also SERIOUSLY considering letting us all rot and bring in a dwarven wizard with a slew of Crafting feats, including Craft Construct. If nobody wants to be the meatshield....Honestly? By 11th level, the group doesn't really need a dedicated meatshield. The druid and cleric will do just fine with multiple other full casters backing them up. If you feel you want to play a caster, go ahead and do it... don't play a dedicated melee class just because you think your group needs one, because, by level 11 (and with a druid and a cleric), you pretty much don't.

Make sure your Druid is competent and intends to spend most of their time wild shaped. As long as you've got that, you have a serviceable meatshield, certainly enough to take the few hits they'll have to before your high-level full-casting party splatters the enemy all over the walls.

Craft Construct will add even more melee ability to your group, if you really feel you need it. But, basically, play whatever character you want to play... with a level 11 group containing a druid and two other full casters, you probably don't have to worry about lacking something essential. If you're going to go for a gap, I'd say that skill monkey / party face is more important at that point than a melee guy anyway. Your druid can handle the amount of melee you're likely to need no problem... but a particularly nasty trap can still outwit magical attempts to discover it.

Also, if you're worried about the roles the party "needs", talk to the DM. They might intend to adjust the challenges based on the party anyway... most DMs are going to throw a different set of challenges at a party of wizards than they would at a party of barbarians or rogues, say. There's no real need for you to cover every role if the DM isn't going to go out of their way to require them all.

Cheesegear
2008-05-13, 03:46 AM
I've looked at the DwDef PrC, but why wouldn't people just take a 5' away and leave me stuck until I get bored enough to take a -2Str for the rest of the fight? Other than the not-moving thing it's a cool class, but until you can surpass it I just don't get the class.

Right, you're a full BAB front-line fighter, to be honest, your STR should already be through the roof (Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, etc), if -2 STR actually hurts you, you're doing something wrong.
DwDef, also gets Uncanny Dodge (which you get if you go Barbarian anyway), which is great. 8th level gets you Mobile Defense, which lets you take 5' steps without losing the 'Stance'.
To be honest, yes. It is sub-par. But, then you're playing Core Only for the most part, and you don't get much better.

Defensive Stance is rather weak until you get Mobile Stance, sure. But, you don't have to use it if you don't want to. It's not meant for 1v1 fights. It's meant for when your party is getting charged by a group of <horde monster here>, the dwarf pulls out his shield and battleaxe and stands in the doorway whilst his friends behind him destroy the phylactery of the lich mind-controlling all the <horde monsters>.

Spec for Dwarven Defender, get yourself a reach weapon and Trip. Trip. And then trip some more.

Saph
2008-05-13, 07:37 AM
Level 11, you say? Well, that opens things up a bit.

I wouldn't recommend Dwarven Defender because, as you say, the monsters can just step away. Mobility is a big deal, especially at higher levels, and the last thing you need is to be obliged to stand still.

Instead, I'd try something like this: Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker 6. Race, human.

You have six free feats, which you can spend as you like - I'd recommend Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, and Knockdown as well if you can get it (it's in the SRD). However, the real benefit comes from your Horizon Walker abilities. Pick the terrain mastery abilities that give you Listen and Spot bonuses, Darkvision, and fatigue immunity. Then, at level 11, you get the Planar Terrain mastery, Shifting - which gives you Dimension Door as a spell-like ability, at will.

Being able to teleport everywhere all day long does wonders for your flexibility. You'll also have great Listen and Spot scores as well as darkvision, so you can be as the party detector. And you have full BAB as well.

Much more fun than a standard meatshield, and you have some nice abilities to look forward to at level up (fire resist 20, cold resist 20, and tremorsense are the standouts). And it's all Core-only.

- Saph

Occasional Sage
2008-05-13, 01:06 PM
Level 11, you say? Well, that opens things up a bit.

I wouldn't recommend Dwarven Defender because, as you say, the monsters can just step away. Mobility is a big deal, especially at higher levels, and the last thing you need is to be obliged to stand still.

Instead, I'd try something like this: Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker 6. Race, human.

You have six free feats, which you can spend as you like - I'd recommend Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, and Knockdown as well if you can get it (it's in the SRD). However, the real benefit comes from your Horizon Walker abilities. Pick the terrain mastery abilities that give you Listen and Spot bonuses, Darkvision, and fatigue immunity. Then, at level 11, you get the Planar Terrain mastery, Shifting - which gives you Dimension Door as a spell-like ability, at will.

Being able to teleport everywhere all day long does wonders for your flexibility. You'll also have great Listen and Spot scores as well as darkvision, so you can be as the party detector. And you have full BAB as well.

Much more fun than a standard meatshield, and you have some nice abilities to look forward to at level up (fire resist 20, cold resist 20, and tremorsense are the standouts). And it's all Core-only.

- Saph

That's... the most interesting idea I've heard yet. One question re: rangers, though, since I've never played one: how useful is Power Attack for a dual-wield build? Your second weapon is going to be light, to avoid as many penalties as possible, but PA states that it penalizes accuracy without additional damage for light weapons. Is that a worthwhile feat to take? I can see the argument if you're using the off-hand purely to Trip, since the target AC is Touch, but other than that it seems like an albatross.

Chronos
2008-05-13, 01:14 PM
Honestly, in a core-only game, the best melee class is the druid (at any level except 4). A Tome of Battle character can outdo a druid at melee (but still doesn't come close to his spells), and a barbarian/fighter can do it with the right non-core feat chains, but the druid gets everything he needs right out of the box. The only significant thing a druid gains from extra books is better animal forms, but really, a grizzly bear isn't good enough for you?

Saph
2008-05-13, 01:24 PM
That's... the most interesting idea I've heard yet. One question re: rangers, though, since I've never played one: how useful is Power Attack for a dual-wield build?

It's not. You don't dual-wield, you use a guisarme, spiked chain, or other two-handed weapon of choice. The Ranger levels are in there so as to get the Knowledge (Geography) points and Endurance feat that qualify you for the Horizon Walker class (oh, and getting Track and the Survival, Spot, and Listen skills is nice too). The TWF or Point Blank Shot that you pick up is just a freebie.

If you want to make use of it, though, you can get some armour spikes, allowing you to use your two-handed weapon along with TWF at the same time.

I've been meaning to write up the build at some point - if I ever do I'll put in some detail.

Edit: Done it. Have a look at the "Horizon Tripper" thread for the full build.

- Saph

Iku Rex
2008-05-13, 02:40 PM
Fighter1/Wizard5/EK 5, trip feats, buffs.

Polymorph into treant, hydra or annis hag if the DM allows polymorph.

JaxGaret
2008-05-15, 11:02 PM
Are the other three players playing a Druid, Cleric, and Wizard?

If so, I suggest you play a Sorcerer - just to be a different spellcaster - and don't worry about melee. The Druid and Cleric (and even the Wizard if they feel like it) can handle it quite well.

That way you get to have fun, too.

If there's no Cleric in the party already and you really want to play a melee character, play a melee Cleric.

If there's no Wizard in the party already and you really want to play a "melee character", play a Summoner Wizard.

Pyroconstruct
2008-05-16, 11:09 AM
Dwarven Defender is useless, as mentioned, steer WAY clear of it. By 11th level, in a core-only game, the druid is better at melee than any "pure melee" character. Gish can be OK - Eldritch Knight isn't terrible, just subpar, but the main thing that hurts in core-only is a lack of some of the good buffs like Bite of the Carebear, Cheesestrike, etc. If you're willing to abuse Polymorph, though, a straight-up Fighter1/Wiz5/EK5 will do fine.

I second the advice not to play melee just because nobody else is. In particular, there is no "meatshield" in Core-only. None of the abilities that actually let you "tank" are present in core. Battlefield control as a caster is the best way to fill that role; the only thing a pure melee can do effectively at 11th level is be a Barbarian and aim for huge damage, which is already starting to fall behind a druid's melee damage anyways, although it's not yet worthless.

EDIT: Horizon Tripper is a good option too; I wouldn't consider it a "meatshield" really, but it's a good core-only character with melee ability.

Chronos
2008-05-16, 12:42 PM
Dwarven Defender is useless, as mentioned, steer WAY clear of it.Since, of course, steering way clear of it is exactly what all of the enemies will do, too. The only time the DD is useful is in blocking a narrow tunnel, and even then, the enemy can still stand out of his reach and shoot arrows or spells past him.

JaxGaret
2008-05-16, 12:45 PM
You know what's actually a decent melee-er in a core only game?

A Barbarian1/Bard4/Dragon Disciple.

It's not great, mind you, but it can be competitive. Throw in two levels of Fighter if you want more feats.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-16, 03:57 PM
You know what's actually a decent melee-er in a core only game?

A Barbarian1/Bard4/Dragon Disciple.

It's not great, mind you, but it can be competitive. Throw in two levels of Fighter if you want more feats.

Yeah, I've been tinkering around with DrDisc builds... Saph's Horizon Walker plan has me all hotnbothered at the moment though. Have you seen that thread?

Bard, though... I hadn't given Bard levels much thought. Why Bard rather than a quick dip into Sorceror?

tyckspoon
2008-05-16, 04:21 PM
Bard has better BAB, HP, and armor access. Also better skills; if you have a modestly good Int (14 or higher, 12 for a human) you can meet Dragon Disciple's requirement with just one level of Bard and dumping all the points to Know (Arcana) instead of cross-classing from Barbarian or taking several levels in Sorcerer. I would probably do something like Barb 3/Bard 2 or even Barb 4/ Bard 1 for Dragon Disciple; you're basically going to ignore the spells except when one of your Bard spells is the best possible solution for something. Or for letting you use Cure Light wands.

JaxGaret
2008-05-16, 05:31 PM
Yeah, I've been tinkering around with DrDisc builds... Saph's Horizon Walker plan has me all hotnbothered at the moment though. Have you seen that thread?

Yep. I like HWs.


Bard, though... I hadn't given Bard levels much thought. Why Bard rather than a quick dip into Sorceror?

Comparing Barb1/Bard4 to Barb4/Sorc1:

8 less HP
1 fewer Rage
No Uncanny Dodge
3 more Bardic Music uses
Better Reflex + Will save, worse Fort save
No ASF in light armor
2nd level spellcasting (the biggest plus, especially with the DD's bonus spells)
10 more skill points and a better skill list

I feel like the three extra Bardic Music uses is about equal to or perhaps a bit less useful than the one extra Rage, but having a better Reflex and Will save is definitely a little better than having Uncanny Dodge and a better Fort save, so that all just about balances. Then you have to ask yourself, which is better: eight measly HP, or 2nd level spells, no ASF when casting, and much improved skills, particularly maxing out UMD?

Occasional Sage
2008-05-16, 06:03 PM
Yep. I like HWs.



Comparing Barb1/Bard4 to Barb4/Sorc1:

8 less HP
1 fewer Rage
No Uncanny Dodge
3 more Bardic Music uses
Better Reflex + Will save, worse Fort save
No ASF in light armor
2nd level spellcasting (the biggest plus, especially with the DD's bonus spells)
10 more skill points and a better skill list

I feel like the three extra Bardic Music uses is about equal to or perhaps a bit less useful than the one extra Rage, but having a better Reflex and Will save is definitely a little better than having Uncanny Dodge and a better Fort save, so that all just about balances. Then you have to ask yourself, which is better: eight measly HP, or 2nd level spells, no ASF when casting, and much improved skills, particularly maxing out UMD?

Oooo, UMD. Yeah, OK. I'm sold. And the flavor of a tribal bard is seeming pretty cool, unlike the poncy bards that are my first thought on the class.