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rockdeworld
2008-05-13, 02:09 AM
In MTG, type 1 (Legacy) games are essentially determined by whoever wins the die roll to go first (basic example: a Channel Fireball deck wins 1st turn w/ Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball).

Well, I was thinking about how a battle between a Spike-Chain Fighter and a Batman Wizard would go, and I figured that whoever won initiative would basically lock-down/kill the other.

Then I remembered Contingency-Celerity, Defensive Casting, etc. and I figured the wizard would probably win either way, and that it's a sad battle when one side has to make allowances for the other in order for it to be fair.

Anyone else have any good examples of this?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 02:44 AM
In MTG, type 1 (Legacy) games are essentially determined by whoever wins the die roll to go first (basic example: a Channel Fireball deck wins 1st turn w/ Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball).

Well, I was thinking about how a battle between a Spike-Chain Fighter and a Batman Wizard would go, and I figured that whoever won initiative would basically lock-down/kill the other.

Then I remembered Contingency-Celerity, Defensive Casting, etc. and I figured the wizard would probably win either way, and that it's a sad battle when one side has to make allowances for the other in order for it to be fair.

Anyone else have any good examples of this?

Heres an example involved in your example. Even if we took away Foresight/Celerity you still have to make allowances for the Fighter to stand a chance because:

1) I've never seen a lockdown build that can beat a quickened DD.
2) You have to start the Wizard within reach of the fighter.
3) The Fighter has to know the Wizard is there (Superior Invisibility)
4) The Wizard is going to have higher Init pretty much every time.

Aquillion
2008-05-13, 02:59 AM
The spellcasting harrier feat essentially prevents wizards from casting defensively against you (technically, they can still do it, but when they do the act of trying to cast defensively itself provokes an attack of opportunity... at a bonus to hit.) That will at least negate one of the advantages that the wizard has in the basic rules (although some of the specific spells you mentioned are still problems.)

Contingency-Celerity is rather tough to beat, though. And, as noted, the wizard has options as long as they get to their turn... quickened spells, spells with no components (silenced dimension door, say), spells they get as SLA from archmage or whatever, you get the idea.

The typical 'roll initative and win' would be wizard-vs-wizard. Although... hmm, maybe not. They'd still have to worry about the other's contingent celerity, and a lot would depend on how well-worded each one's was. At that point it'd be a battle of wits... trying to guess the exact wording of the other's contingency, basically.

Nebo_
2008-05-13, 03:52 AM
Oh, Hooray. A fighter vs wizard thread. Haven't seen one of these in a while...

The Glyphstone
2008-05-13, 05:00 AM
The spellcasting harrier feat essentially prevents wizards from casting defensively against you (technically, they can still do it, but when they do the act of trying to cast defensively itself provokes an attack of opportunity... at a bonus to hit.) That will at least negate one of the advantages that the wizard has in the basic rules (although some of the specific spells you mentioned are still problems.)

Contingency-Celerity is rather tough to beat, though. And, as noted, the wizard has options as long as they get to their turn... quickened spells, spells with no components (silenced dimension door, say), spells they get as SLA from archmage or whatever, you get the idea.

The typical 'roll initative and win' would be wizard-vs-wizard. Although... hmm, maybe not. They'd still have to worry about the other's contingent celerity, and a lot would depend on how well-worded each one's was. At that point it'd be a battle of wits... trying to guess the exact wording of the other's contingency, basically.

Spellcasting Harrier is an Epic feat, and it's also utterly useless because of the epic Improved Combat Casting that removes the need to cast defensively at all. Did you mean Mage Slayer?

sikyon
2008-05-13, 06:52 AM
In MTG, type 1 (Legacy) games are essentially determined by whoever wins the die roll to go first (basic example: a Channel Fireball deck wins 1st turn w/ Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball).


Actually you forgot the extra mana source (ie. petal).

Pienterekaak
2008-05-13, 07:18 AM
In MTG, type 1 (Legacy) games are essentially determined by whoever wins the die roll to go first (basic example: a Channel Fireball deck wins 1st turn w/ Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball).


off topic:
Type 1 is called vintage not legacy :P
And although its possible to kill turn 1, it only happens now and then.
(so new magic players, dont be scared)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-13, 07:26 AM
Yeah, in normal play, the kill occurs on the third or fourth turn. :smalltongue:

Reinboom
2008-05-13, 08:15 AM
Let's not forget about the glue of vintage:
Force of Will
Misdirection


You don't do 'Channel + Fireball' on first turn. At minimum, you do Kaervek's Torch. Otherwise, you just shot yourself. But in Vintage play MtG, like in D&D, direct damage sucks unless you can pump out an insane or a steady amount of it with decent efficient methods. (Hint: XR spells are -not- efficient.)



Besides, it's a simple thing to get out of lockdown.

Frosty
2008-05-13, 10:44 AM
Assuming the Lockdown fighter wins initiative and actually gets within range, can't he ready an action to disrupt a quickened DD when the wizard casts it? He can otherwise still take normal AoOs.

kc0bbq
2008-05-13, 11:52 AM
You don't do 'Channel + Fireball' on first turn. Yes, you do. Play a mountain. Black lotus. Tap + sacrifice black lotus for 3 green. tap mountain for 1 red.

Pay two of the green to cover the 1g1c cost of the channel. Pay 1r to cast fireball. channel 19 life for 19 colorless, pay the remaining 1g plus the 19c to do 20 damage with the fireball. Win before opponent gets a turn, 1 life to 0.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-13, 12:04 PM
Roll a wizard to see who wins the battle

Fixed your title for ya. Don't thank me, thank Batman. :smalltongue:

Aleron
2008-05-13, 12:05 PM
Unless they're holding Force of Will, then all that's happened is you droped yourself to 1 life. :/

Human Paragon 3
2008-05-13, 12:09 PM
Yes, you do. Play a mountain. Black lotus. Tap + sacrifice black lotus for 3 green. tap mountain for 1 red.

Pay two of the green to cover the 1g1c cost of the channel. Pay 1r to cast fireball. channel 19 life for 19 colorless, pay the remaining 1g plus the 19c to do 20 damage with the fireball. Win before opponent gets a turn, 1 life to 0.

He wasn't saying you won't have the mana, he was saying it is a risky move. If your opponent has force of will (or worse, misdirection) in hand, he can counter your spell even without mana on the table.

As the above poster stated, Kaervek's Torch is superior in this scenario because it costs an extra 2 to counter, and thus can't be force of willed with no mana on the board.

Aquillion
2008-05-13, 12:11 PM
Yes, you do. Play a mountain. Black lotus. Tap + sacrifice black lotus for 3 green. tap mountain for 1 red.

Pay two of the green to cover the 1g1c cost of the channel. Pay 1r to cast fireball. channel 19 life for 19 colorless, pay the remaining 1g plus the 19c to do 20 damage with the fireball. Win before opponent gets a turn, 1 life to 0.And then they play Misdirection (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Misdirection) and you die instantly, or Force of Will (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p82850.html) and you die the next turn.

Channel-fireball just isn't all that anymore, even in legacy... with those eight cards in a deck, the chance of your opponent having one in their starting hand is way too high (much higher than your chance of starting with the combo.)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 12:15 PM
Assuming the Lockdown fighter wins initiative and actually gets within range, can't he ready an action to disrupt a quickened DD when the wizard casts it? He can otherwise still take normal AoOs.

Yes he can give up all his actions to allow the Wizard to move, swift, or standard action teleport away without casting a spell. Or just tumble away. Or use Greater Mirror Image or invisibility to gain a miss chance before moving. Or use a quickened Acid Fog/Solid Fog/ect centered on himself followed by teleporting away with his new total concealment. Or Shapechange into one of a hundred of creatures that could escape during that round by teleporting without provoking AoOs, or if you are a trip build you auto fail because magical fliers are immune to trip, and he's a Wizard.

If you optimize the best damn Lockdown ever, who specializes in taking on Wizards, and then you don't allow a Wizard to use anything even remotely like Incantatrix (Sacred Exorcist can actually do the same thing only worse) and you don't allow contingency of celerity and you make them start adjacent to each other, but you tell the Wizard he is going to be facing a Lockdown fighter the day before, he will have a 100% success rate.

Unless you wisely decide that the best Lockdown build is the one that kills in one turn, and instead make sure you do 400 damage in one round, but still took Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Thicket of Blades, an you get the no tumbling rule, and you get lucky and he doesn't win Init despite his higher modifier.

Frosty
2008-05-13, 12:37 PM
Yes he can give up all his actions to allow the Wizard to move, swift, or standard action teleport away without casting a spell. Or just tumble away. Or use Greater Mirror Image or invisibility to gain a miss chance before moving. Or use a quickened Acid Fog/Solid Fog/ect centered on himself followed by teleporting away with his new total concealment.

If you optimize the best damn Lockdown ever, who specializes in taking on Wizards, and then you don't allow a Wizard to use anything even remotely like Incantatrix (Sacred Exorcist can actually do the same thing only worse) and you make them start adjacent to each other, but you tell the Wizard he is going to be facing a Lockdown fighter the day before, he will have a 100% success rate.

He will have a 100% success rate? Who is "he"? The lock-down melee-er or the wizard?

Well, I know wizards always have an option of getting away, but most NPC wizards won't have ALL the options. Pierce Magical Concealment will take care of Mirror Image/Fog spells. Tumble? Thicket of Blades.

Then, you ready an action to disrupt the moment the wizard casts a quickened spell. You can interrupt that spell. Then the next spell is a Standard action spell, which will provoke due to Mage Slayer. The only thing I can think of is one of the Dimensional Hop spells or something like that that lets you hop around as a move action once per turn. Again, if every NPC wizard has ALL of these defenses up, the DM is doing something horribly wrong.

Also, Quickened DD is an 8th level spell. Without metmagic reducing cheese, Mr Lockdown will be able to take care of wizards until the enemy wizards start hitting level 15. After level 15, why isn't your own wizard helping out with things like Dimensional anchor?

Chronos
2008-05-13, 12:41 PM
Does Legacy M:tG not have the four-card rule? Because even with a deck composed of nothing but equal parts Channel, Fireball, Black Lotus, and Mountains, there's still a decent chance that you won't start with all four of those cards in your hand. If you're restricted to four each Channel and Black Lotus (mountains being, of course, unrestricted, and there being a ton of Fireball clones out there), then you're probably going to be waiting a pretty good while for your killer combo (long enough for, say, a decent green weenie deck, which costs less than a thousand dollars to construct, to kill you).

Frosty
2008-05-13, 12:43 PM
Unless you wisely decide that the best Lockdown build is the one that kills in one turn, and instead make sure you do 400 damage in one round, but still took Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Thicket of Blades, an you get the no tumbling rule, and you get lucky and he doesn't win Init despite his higher modifier.

Do both. What else are you going to do with your fighter bonus feats? Charge one wizard, kill him. You're within range of another. Hey, that wizard suddenly can't cast defensively. And if you make it waste a quickened DD to run away, you've just WASTED its turn. Even if it teleports away some other method, you're still wasting its actions and resources. and since he is away now. Next turn, you get to CHARGE him.

The Glyphstone
2008-05-13, 12:47 PM
Does Legacy M:tG not have the four-card rule? Because even with a deck composed of nothing but equal parts Channel, Fireball, Black Lotus, and Mountains, there's still a decent chance that you won't start with all four of those cards in your hand. If you're restricted to four each Channel and Black Lotus (mountains being, of course, unrestricted, and there being a ton of Fireball clones out there), then you're probably going to be waiting a pretty good while for your killer combo (long enough for, say, a decent green weenie deck, which costs less than a thousand dollars to construct, to kill you).

Even better - Black Lotus and Channel are Restricted in Vintage, which (I think) you are limited to only 1 copy of each in your deck, instead of the normal 4. Comparatively, Misdirection and FOrce of Will are not restricted (aside from the 4-of rule that applies to anything except basic land).

TempusCCK
2008-05-13, 12:49 PM
Great Wizard Balancing Rule: Roll initiative normally for wizards, minus the level of the spell(s) they are casting that round... More spells, less initiative.

Frosty
2008-05-13, 12:52 PM
Actually, making Swift spells provoke also balances out a lot of things.

Eldariel
2008-05-13, 12:53 PM
Does Legacy M:tG not have the four-card rule? Because even with a deck composed of nothing but equal parts Channel, Fireball, Black Lotus, and Mountains, there's still a decent chance that you won't start with all four of those cards in your hand. If you're restricted to four each Channel and Black Lotus (mountains being, of course, unrestricted, and there being a ton of Fireball clones out there), then you're probably going to be waiting a pretty good while for your killer combo (long enough for, say, a decent green weenie deck, which costs less than a thousand dollars to construct, to kill you).

Yes. His example is bad. Type 1 is actually quite slow at the present (with all the broken cards being restricted, save maybe for few engine-cards, you can't consistently go broken on anyone's face as you won't consistently draw your bombs even if you play all the ones existing in the game; 60 cards in the deck minimum), mostly because all the good decks are control. Mono-Green Stompy, Channel-Fireball and so on haven't been good for ~10 years now. The only remotedly playable aggro-deck has been Vial Goblins and that's because it can win turn 1-2 and plays relevant amounts of disruption and even it is mostly ignorable nowadays. The real decks are Gush-based Gro-decks, Storm-combo (with or without Gush), some Oath of Druids-variants, Mishra's Workshop Aggro and Workshop-based Control (Stax) along with a bunch of hatedecks such as Rg Beats with non-basic land and artifact hate.

Basically, the game comes down to a finesse dance of responses and broken effects, much like high level caster wars in D&D. All good decks tend to be able to "go broken", but it's usually unwise to try to do so without due preparations. Running that Ancestral into Misdirection backed up by Force makes you feel really stupid. Games can end turn 3-4, but basically Vintage is just like high level caster fights; so much activity is condensed to few turns as you have the means to do more than you normally would (in Vintage, Moxes, Lotuses and free spells mean you can get 4-5 mana to use on the first turn and you can interact with the opponent for 0 mana, much like Battlemagic Perception, Contingencies and so on allow you to interact with the opposing mage without expending any more than Immediate actions).

But since this is totally off-topic, I'll shut up now.

Squash Monster
2008-05-13, 12:55 PM
A good lockdown build has an n-per-day item of teleportation that they use to get to the wizard and follow them around. The wizard can still get away from him, but the wizard needs to spend so much of their resources doing it that they're unlikely to be able to repeat the task. This means the wizard is going to have to get away from the lockdown fighter and kill him in one turn, which is pretty hard.

Odds are still on the wizard, though. Lockdown is more effective against CoDzilla and other melee characters.

If you'd like a good example of "roll initiative to see who wins the battle" I think an uberpouncer vs a wizard is a much better choice, as the wizard will be killed in one hit and the uberpouncer will be trapped in an iron box full of cloudkill if the wizard gets a turn.

Of course, the wizard still always wins initiative.

sikyon
2008-05-13, 01:02 PM
A good lockdown build has an n-per-day item of teleportation that they use to get to the wizard and follow them around. The wizard can still get away from him, but the wizard needs to spend so much of their resources doing it that they're unlikely to be able to repeat the task. This means the wizard is going to have to get away from the lockdown fighter and kill him in one turn, which is pretty hard.

Odds are still on the wizard, though. Lockdown is more effective against CoDzilla and other melee characters.

If you'd like a good example of "roll initiative to see who wins the battle" I think an uberpouncer vs a wizard is a much better choice, as the wizard will be killed in one hit and the uberpouncer will be trapped in an iron box full of cloudkill if the wizard gets a turn.

Of course, the wizard still always wins initiative.

Of course, even with teleporting items if you charge the wizard and then his contingency goes off teleporting him away, you're probably not going to know where he teleported to (500 ft up) in time to take your standard action to activate your magic item before his turn.

Also, wizard's best weapon first round is disjunction. Fighters greatest strength comes from magic items, take those away and he's dead in the water.

Frosty
2008-05-13, 01:09 PM
Doesn't disjunction allow a Will Save? What fighter worth his salt doesn't pump Will saves at higher levels? Also, take a Warblade dip and get Diamond Mind maneuvers to reroll saves or use your Concentration check as your Will save (yes, ToB makes everything better). And hell, most games don't get to level 17. Disjunction is fine and all, but lockdown can be there at level 6 if you allow Flaws. What the hell is a Wizard that is not an elf and does not have a Hummingbird Familiar going to do against lockdown at level 6? At level 9? At level 12?

At the level I'm DMing for my players, around 10, they live in FEAR when I throw Mr lockdowns at them. The wizard cringes whenever he remembers that fight. It was the most memorable fight recently because the party had to work together, wasting all the AoOs from the enemy before the wizard could cast.

At level 17. Mr Lockdown will bring his own Wizard as backup.

Douglas
2008-05-13, 01:24 PM
Let's see, the "win initiative = win" thing is generally considered to be more applicable the higher level you are, right?

Just for an interesting possible counterexample: I am currently in a level 50 gestalt arena combat. Both characters are optimized to an absurd degree and the arena has very few house rules. I lost initiative. My opponent gets at least three standard actions per round, along with 2 or 3 swift actions and some move actions, and he's using Anticipatory Strike (Complete Psionic) to get that many actions all over again before I get to move. He's used up all his actions before the Anticipatory Strike already and I'm still up. I'm still waiting to see what he does with the remaining half of his actions, but I think there's a pretty good chance I'll survive them too.

The fight thread is here (http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=7698&gn=Last+Man+Standing+DnD+lvl50+gestalt&ti=72&date=1210612435&show=all). My character is Taurnil.

sikyon
2008-05-13, 01:28 PM
Doesn't disjunction allow a Will Save? What fighter worth his salt doesn't pump Will saves at higher levels? Also, take a Warblade dip and get Diamond Mind maneuvers to reroll saves or use your Concentration check as your Will save (yes, ToB makes everything better). And hell, most games don't get to level 17. Disjunction is fine and all, but lockdown can be there at level 6 if you allow Flaws. What the hell is a Wizard that is not an elf and does not have a Hummingbird Familiar going to do against lockdown at level 6? At level 9? At level 12?

At the level I'm DMing for my players, around 10, they live in FEAR when I throw Mr lockdowns at them. The wizard cringes whenever he remembers that fight. It was the most memorable fight recently because the party had to work together, wasting all the AoOs from the enemy before the wizard could cast.

At level 17. Mr Lockdown will bring his own Wizard as backup.

what keeps the wizard from simply DD'ing away before the lockdown gets into range? Really the wizard is so versitile I'm pretty sure even the bets lockdown builds are going to get stomped by a wizard who knows they are comming, or are super-cautious.

Frosty
2008-05-13, 02:03 PM
1) He might not have 4th level spells yet.
2) He might not win initiative.
3) If the Fighter is keeping the enemy wizard from doing anything else (since DD says you can't do anything afterwards), then Mr Lockdown is DOING HIS JOB.
4) If the Wizard runs away, you and your party now has a few turns where you are fighting THE REST OF THE ENEMY PARTY...WITHOUT HAVING TO FACE THE WIZARD! When the wizard returns, he is now alone becuase the rest of his party is dead. Seriously, running away by yourself is not always the best solution.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-13, 03:27 PM
Well, I know wizards always have an option of getting away, but most NPC wizards won't have ALL the options. Pierce Magical Concealment will take care of Mirror Image/Fog spells. Tumble? Thicket of Blades. You're assuming an answer to an unresolved question, Frosty. Tumble states that you never provoke AoOs from normal movement. Thicket of Blades states that movement always provokes AoOs. Both of these statements are absolutes, and neither the skill nor the stance references the other.

My default resolution to this is that Tumble still works as stated. The reasoning is that this was a well-known part of the core rules when Thicket of Blades was created, and it's irresponsible to make no mention of Tumble in the skill description if they expected to override this part of the core rules.

Anyway, most Wizards have no facility with cross-class skills like Tumble.

Jayabalard
2008-05-13, 03:29 PM
In MTG, type 1 (Legacy) games are essentially determined by whoever wins the die roll to go first (basic example: a Channel Fireball deck wins 1st turn w/ Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball).Black lotus and channel are both on the banned list for legacy. Perhaps you mean Vintage?

You're not all that likely to have those 3 particular cards in your hand on the draw, since Channel and black lotus are both restricted cards in Vintage; even if you do have them on the draw and go first, it's not necessarily a win: it can be countered by a force of will (not restricted) + any blue card as an easy example. I'm sure there are other ways to counter that use cards from more modern sets.

edit: interesting, that took well over an hour to actually post (and double posted to boot)

Frosty
2008-05-13, 04:03 PM
You're assuming an answer to an unresolved question, Frosty. Tumble states that you never provoke AoOs from normal movement. Thicket of Blades states that movement always provokes AoOs. Both of these statements are absolutes, and neither the skill nor the stance references the other.

My default resolution to this is that Tumble still works as stated. The reasoning is that this was a well-known part of the core rules when Thicket of Blades was created, and it's irresponsible to make no mention of Tumble in the skill description if they expected to override this part of the core rules.

Anyway, most Wizards have no facility with cross-class skills like Tumble.

It's really easy to beat a DC15 Tumble check. The wording of Thicket of Blades leads me to believe it beats Tumble as well, but to each his own. If you rule that ToB does not help, then in your games, Mr Lockdown would have 5 level of Knight for Bulwark of Defense, which is a Poor Man's ToB, but it raises Tumble DC.

Chronos
2008-05-13, 04:11 PM
My default resolution to this is that Tumble still works as stated. The reasoning is that this was a well-known part of the core rules when Thicket of Blades was created, and it's irresponsible to make no mention of Tumble in the skill description if they expected to override this part of the core rules.It's also irresponsible to make no mention of Tumble if they expected it to not override the skill. Whichever way the answer goes, they really ought to have made it explicit in the Thicket of Blades description.

On the Dimension Door question, remember that it takes extreme amounts of cheese to get a charge up to the same range as a Dimension Door. A typical character can charge 60 feet. Even with a (non-totem) barbarian level, a faster than normal race, and an enhancement bonus, you're still probably only looking at 160 feet. Dimension Door, meanwhile, has a range of at least 680 feet. That's two rounds of running just to get back into charging range, assuming there exists a flat straight-line path, which is two rounds the wizard has to do whatever he likes (either casting long-range spells at you, or preparing himself or the terrain he's on for when you get there).

Frosty
2008-05-13, 04:27 PM
You don't need to Chrge him. Just RUN up to him. 4x your speed. Once you're close, you have lockdown once more.

And if he teleports almost 700 feet away...TERRIFIC! He is now out of range on his attack spells and hemust waste anotehr turn getting back into range. In the meantime, BEAT ON HIS FRIENDS.

mostlyharmful
2008-05-13, 05:01 PM
You don't need to Chrge him. Just RUN up to him. 4x your speed. Once you're close, you have lockdown once more.

And if he teleports almost 700 feet away...TERRIFIC! He is now out of range on his attack spells and hemust waste anotehr turn getting back into range. In the meantime, BEAT ON HIS FRIENDS.

While he buffs and gets ready to rain death on your group which he has had several turns to examine. Any wizard that runs that easily and that far doesn't give a damn about his friends, almost certainly because he can get on perfectly happily without them. Now if he uses his anklet to bounce thirty feet away you are in for a world of hurt. If he's a BBEG then his mooks don't matter all that much in which case leaving him those rounds to play with is a big mistake, if he's just a guy that casts then it doesn't matter overly but beware scry-n-suck-beatdown for the next couple weeks.

quiet1mi
2008-05-13, 05:06 PM
iaajitsu focus (pardon my spelling)+sudden strike+sneak attack is sort-of a win initiative = win

Frosty
2008-05-13, 05:17 PM
If all his allies are mooks, we ignore the mooks and our own Wizard casts DD and gets the group to catch up. Then Lockdown resumes. You can also ready an action to interrupt the usage of the anklet, which is only 10ft anyways.

If BBEG has time to buff, then that means our Cleric and our Wizard also have time to buff. I consider that an even trade at the very least, and we got the BBEG to waste a spell. A BBEG that has let the party have time ti buff itself, and that the party knows is coming back, is one that will probably be very dead. One caster just readies an action to counterspell every turn. Combined with Mr Lockdown, there is nothing the BBEG can do. And hell, how many quickened spell will the BBEG have?

sikyon
2008-05-13, 06:10 PM
If all his allies are mooks, we ignore the mooks and our own Wizard casts DD and gets the group to catch up. Then Lockdown resumes. You can also ready an action to interrupt the usage of the anklet, which is only 10ft anyways.

If BBEG has time to buff, then that means our Cleric and our Wizard also have time to buff. I consider that an even trade at the very least, and we got the BBEG to waste a spell. A BBEG that has let the party have time ti buff itself, and that the party knows is coming back, is one that will probably be very dead. One caster just readies an action to counterspell every turn. Combined with Mr Lockdown, there is nothing the BBEG can do. And hell, how many quickened spell will the BBEG have?

DD up Feather Fall swift action, and take your time getting down. You never DD left/right/back/forwards you always DD up. Gonna have a tough time running straight up.

Frosty
2008-05-13, 06:20 PM
DD up Feather Fall swift action, and take your time getting down. You never DD left/right/back/forwards you always DD up. Gonna have a tough time running straight up.

You can't take ANY actions your turn after you DD. Besides, that's fine. You DD up 700 feet, and the BBEG again can't attack you, especially if you're not fighting on a featureless plain. The building ceiling will block line of sight and effect, so the BBEG really has to DD back in to engage the party, unless the BBEG wants to waste time floating down from Feather Fall.

Mop up the mooks, buff, ready an action for the BBEG to come back down. Or, cast Fly on your party, and then DD up at your leisure when you are ready. Or, go destroy the uber artifact of evilness that the BBEG suddenly isn't guarding. Half the time those pesky artifact are stationary. If the BBEG takes it with him and RUNS, then you've defeated the BBEG and you've got EXP. Congratz.

DD-ing FAR away is just not a very sound option in my mind for the BBEG. Why would you want to give the heros more prep time? Anything you can do, the party Wizard and party Cleric can do better since there's two of them and one of them can dedicate himself to Counterspelling and Dispelling you.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 08:47 PM
Do both. What else are you going to do with your fighter bonus feats? Charge one wizard, kill him. You're within range of another. Hey, that wizard suddenly can't cast defensively. And if you make it waste a quickened DD to run away, you've just WASTED its turn. Even if it teleports away some other method, you're still wasting its actions and resources. and since he is away now. Next turn, you get to CHARGE him.

1) You don't have enough feats to do both.

2) What is your readied action? What if he casts a silenced DD? What if he uses an SLA, what if he uses an item.

See where this is going, you can't ready an action to disrupt an item teleport anyway, and he can do that as a move action, ignoring the Dimensional Jumper spells which give porting as a swift or move action.

You can't actually stop him from using an item to teleport up as a move action, and the hitting you with an assortment of spells using swift and standard actions.

You are also ignoring shapechange, you are also assuming that your lockdown character ever gets to the point where he threatens the Wizard, I was starting them adjacent for a duel setting, in a campaign? Wizard gets fly long before you do, go cry.

Pick a level, I'll tell you exactly how a Wizard deals with your lockdown.

If we decide to randomly start him adjacent for no reason, then at level 17 he free action shifts into the double headed bird, swift action teleports twice using his anklet (15ft each, so 30ft) or once as a move action with his boots. None of which provoke attacks of oppurtunity, or can be interrupted, or even trigger a readied action since they are entirely mental commands.

Then he proceeds to 5ft step twice, or 5ft step and move. Then he lets lose with Dimensional Anchor, Acid Fog, and if he used the boots he still has two swift actions to cast as well.

Note that the item part of this is easily duplicated by any Wizard even without shapechange. Not to mention that's starting adjacent and in your natural form. My favorite trick is to start as a Colossal creature when forced by duel rules to start adjacent, because then as a free action I can shift to a Medium Creature and place myself in the square farthest away from my opponent, without using any of my actions.

If you actually want to talk about in a cmapaign, then guess what, the lockdown build never starts next to the Wizard, and even if he can get to him at all (flying) he still gets several rounds to kill you.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-13, 09:27 PM
You can't actually stop him from using an item to teleport up as a move action, and the hitting you with an assortment of spells using swift and standard actions. I'm curious. What item will let you teleport up using a move action?

Kompera
2008-05-13, 09:27 PM
(Hint: XR spells are -not- efficient.)
Perhaps not, but they are versatile and they scale with your position. Draw a 1 mana cost card on your 6th turn and you're likely to be casting it and be left with unused mana and a very small effect from that card. Draw a Fireball and you're doing (mana -1 damage) if you want to.
So you want to draw a Lightning Bolt on turn 1 and a Fireball on turn 6. And now back to our regularly scheduled "Wizard vs. Fighter" thread. :smallannoyed:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-13, 10:07 PM
I'm curious. What item will let you teleport up using a move action?

That would be boots of Swift Passage.

It's really a tough choice between them and Anklet. But at higher levels you need your Swift action more, so the boots are generally better.

Aquillion
2008-05-13, 11:04 PM
How did this become another stupid Wizard vs. Fighter thread?

Wizard vs. Wizard would be more suitable to the topic anyway. It's more interesting, too... there are only a few fighter feats worth talking about, after all. That fight ran out of original configurations and tactics a loooong time ago.

Wizard vs. Wizard, now. I think it mostly comes down to guessing the other person's contingency and outwitting it. Greater Celerity negates itself, since whoever casts it first loses. Contingency Greater Celerity is much more dangerous, since if you trigger your opponent's, they get a chance to interrupt whatever you're doing.

I do think that whoever goes first can probably win, though...

Let's assume each wizard has a contingent Greater Celerity set to go off the instant before they're harmed or forcibly rendered incapable of casting. That's a fair contingency... simple enough that it's unlikely to fail, specific enough to avoid being constantly triggered when you don't need it, and general enough to cover most cases.

But the wizard who wins initative can beat it easily. All they have to do is maximized Time Stop, drop one or more delayed blast fireballs around the enemy wizard, then use the last action of their time stop to ready an action to cast a maximized Time Stop again in response to the enemy wizard using Celerity in any form. Time resumes, the fireballs begin to go off, the 'losing' wizard's contingent celerity goes off, and then the attacker gets another time stop -- this time, with the loser's contingency already wasted (and their own still intact, to boot.) Winner at that point is obvious.

Of course, if you see that coming, a differently-worded Contingency could handle it. If you cast a contingency just for that fight, you could set your contingency to go off whenever the other wizard attempts to take an action during the fight -- that would usually win you the match. Having it go off when they attempt to cast a spell might be simpler, and it's not like they can thwart it if they don't know about it.

Assuming your contingency is set to go off whenever they cast a spell, and theirs is set to go off whenever they're about to take damage etc, you would probably win even if you lost initiative.

Frosty
2008-05-14, 12:22 AM
Of course you do. you've got enough feats to do a good 250 damage a round while still doing lockdown. Sure, it only finishes at high levels, but you do within 20 levels. At low levels, you'd pick one or the other depending on what you like.

In a Campaign, you would have your own wizard ally dimension lock the enemy wizard before Mr Lockdown goes to do his job. Simply as that. Mr Lockdown isn't supposed to do everything himself.

And un-surprinsgly enough, I get a lot of DMs that don't allow items from the MiC at all. What would you do in that situation at level 6? Combat Reflexes will still allow AoOs even if you win initiative. If not starting next to each other, the enemy wizard can cast Fly. Then, your Wizard either Flys Mr lockdown (If Fighter is not Raptoran) or Dispels enemy Wizard's Fly. Now Mr Lockdown can reach the enemy.

Please, I would like to see this invincible wizard at level 6. I would like to copy it for my campaigns.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-14, 12:22 AM
How did this become another stupid Wizard vs. Fighter thread?

Wizard vs. Wizard would be more suitable to the topic anyway. It's more interesting, too... there are only a few fighter feats worth talking about, after all. That fight ran out of original configurations and tactics a loooong time ago.

Wizard vs. Wizard, now. I think it mostly comes down to guessing the other person's contingency and outwitting it. Greater Celerity negates itself, since whoever casts it first loses. Contingency Greater Celerity is much more dangerous, since if you trigger your opponent's, they get a chance to interrupt whatever you're doing.

I do think that whoever goes first can probably win, though...

Or they could both be Superior Invisible, Mindblanked, and Non-Detectioned 240ft away from each other and not even know the other one exists, and never ever be able to kill the other one.

Frosty
2008-05-14, 12:27 AM
They could, and then there's no fight, and no exp gained, and most importantly, no fun. You're playind DnD, not, "I can't be detected by anything. Nothing exciting ever happens to me because I can't be killed."

Given the power level most people play at (where wizards aren't god), Lockdown is not bad. At your level, everyone should just play Planar Shepherd. I think we should all preface our posts with all of our house-rules and power level expectations. This will reduce much arguing.

rockdeworld
2008-05-14, 12:27 AM
Thank you Aquillion (and others like him). Actually, thank you everyone who posted (no matter your intentions) for fulfilling my dream of creating a topic that broke 1 page (and in 1 day no less).

But back on-topic, I thought in my first post I had made the point that I understood the difficulties in creating a fair Lockdown-v-Batman battle (although Frosty has some very convincing arguments), and what I really wanted to learn about were other people's ideas on initiative=win conditions, such as two-assassins starting a fight after studying each other for 18 seconds - although that one is a bit "out there." Nevertheless, I guess the "Fighter vs Wizard" argument is so strong that any thread that even mentions it gets sucked into its neverending flow.

Also I want to clear up that Type 1 is Vintage, not Legacy (shows how long it's been since I played organized Magic), but I was only using that as an example. There are many rules now in effect to prevent broken decks in Magic, which I think Eldariel summed up best in his post - I was just using Channel-Fireball as an example because it is (as far as I know) the oldest and most widely known. What I really want to know is if anyone has similar ideas about DnD (particularly 3.5) that are broken in the same way Vintage compared to Standard in Magic is broken.

For reference, I was thinking of quotemyname's Spiked Chain Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4031902&postcount=869) build when I said Lockdown because it awed me, and was the first one I had ever seen.

Interestingly, I wonder if two Lockdown fighters would be a better initiative=win situation than lockdown-v-wizard.

Edit: I got ninja'd 3 times while writing this post! :smallbiggrin:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-14, 12:37 AM
Of course you do. you've got enough feats to do a good 250 damage a round while still doing lockdown. Sure, it only finishes at high levels, but you do within 20 levels. At low levels, you'd pick one or the other depending on what you like.

Oh really, please tell me what feats you have at level 20.


In a Campaign, you would have your own wizard ally dimension lock the enemy wizard before Mr Lockdown goes to do his job. Simply as that. Mr Lockdown isn't supposed to do everything himself.

And in the mean time, when I won init from hundreds of feet away up in the air, I would have killed you.


And un-surprinsgly enough, I get a lot of DMs that don't allow items from the MiC at all. What would you do in that situation at level 6? Combat Reflexes will still allow AoOs even if you win initiative. If not starting next to each other, the enemy wizard can cast Fly. Then, your Wizard either Flys Mr lockdown (If Fighter is not Raptoran) or Dispels enemy Wizard's Fly. Now Mr Lockdown can reach the enemy.

Then I would punch them in the face and laugh at your pathetic "Lockdown" build that can't use ToB.

Or I would just never stand adjacent to my enemy to begin with, or I would use Shapechange or Tumble like I already said I would.

As for at level 6. I would ignore you because you don't have Mage Slayer, and I would tumble because you don't have Thicket of Blades, and I would continue flying because you can't catch me and I can still hit you, and I would laugh when the enemy Wizard cast Dispel Magic as if it would actually do anything, and I would have already Webbed or Glitterdusted you anyway and you wouldn't even get AoOs or be able to move, and I would have Stinking Clouded your entire party right off the bat and watched my party mop up on your Rogue/Wizard and possibly you and the Cleric who failed your Fort saves, and I would have just generally laughed at how "awesome" you think "Lockdown" builds are even though they can't actually lockdown anything.


Please, I would like to see this invincible wizard at level 6. I would like to copy it for my campaigns.

And where exactly did I claim Wizards were invincible at level 6?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-14, 12:39 AM
They could, and then there's no fight, and no exp gained, and most importantly, no fun. You're playind DnD, not, "I can't be detected by anything. Nothing exciting ever happens to me because I can't be killed."

Given the power level most people play at (where wizards aren't god), Lockdown is not bad. At your level, everyone should just play Planar Shepherd. I think we should all preface our posts with all of our house-rules and power level expectations. This will reduce much arguing.

I was commenting on Aquillion's Wizard vs Wizard statement of init wins. If they are going through all the trouble to set up Contingent Celerities, Celerities, and whatever else, you'd think they at least bothered to cast the most basic of buffs.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-14, 12:43 AM
For reference, I was thinking of quotemyname's Spiked Chain Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4031902&postcount=869) build when I said Lockdown because it awed me, and was the first one I had ever seen.

Well even the most basic Wizard is going to beat that because magical flight can't be tripped, and so the build does nothing to stop escape (I also don't think it does anything against tumble either.)

Frosty
2008-05-14, 01:19 AM
Total feats: 7 (2 Flaws, 2 Fighter, 3 from levels)

Crusader4/Fighter2

Combat Reflexes, Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), Stand Still, EWP (Spiked Chain), Mage Slayer, Blind Fight

Level 1 (Crusader): Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, EWP
Level 2 (Crusader): nothin
Level 3 (Crusader): Mage Slayer
Level 4 (Crusader): nothin
Level 2 (Fighter): Blind Fight
Level 6 (Fighter): Martial Stance (Thicket of blades), Pierce Magical Protection.

There. Level 6, and you can play around with your race if you want too, with a waterborn orc or whatever. It's got all the essentials, and even has an answer for Mirror Image.

From here, you can continue with Fighter if you want Power Attack, Imp Bullrush, and Shock Trooper faster. Or you can continue with Crusader and wait for the charging until way later. It depends on whether you want maneuvers or charging.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-14, 01:36 AM
Total feats: 7 (2 Flaws, 2 Fighter, 3 from levels)

Crusader4/Fighter2

Combat Reflexes, Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), Stand Still, EWP (Spiked Chain), Mage Slayer, Blind Fight

Level 1 (Crusader): Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, EWP
Level 2 (Crusader): nothin
Level 3 (Crusader): Mage Slayer
Level 4 (Crusader): nothin
Level 2 (Fighter): Blind Fight
Level 6 (Fighter): Martial Stance (Thicket of blades), Pierce Magical Protection.

There. Level 6, and you can play around with your race if you want too, with a waterborn orc or whatever. It's got all the essentials, and even has an answer for Mirror Image.

From here, you can continue with Fighter if you want Power Attack, Imp Bullrush, and Shock Trooper faster. Or you can continue with Crusader and wait for the charging until way later. It depends on whether you want maneuvers or charging.

So you have nothing to close with a Wizard, no way of getting AoOs against him, you can't do anything to get out of save-or-X spells, and you, okay, what can you do against a Wizard? Seriously? I don't see anything that helps against Wizards at all.

Frosty
2008-05-14, 01:47 AM
You're preventing the wizard from casting. That by itself is enough. If he moves, you get to smack him. If he casts, you get to smack him.

You close in on him by surprising him. You have this thing called a PARTY to support you. The party scouter scouts ahead to see what's up, and then tells the party how to prepare. You can be Invisibilitied and then Non-detectioned by your allied casters. You can also try Dust of Disappearance so that See Invisibility does nothing.

My builds do not work in a vaccuum. They are designed to work together with your three allies. I have never claimed that a lockdown fighter can do it all himself. I know that if I'm about to face the BBEG, I'd do my best to buff the fighter. Enemy also can't target you with a Save or Die unless 1) he can see you and 2) he wins initiative. Yes he can do both, but with preparation, the party just made it a lot harder for the BBEG to make the fighter useless.

And I find it amusing that you assume every single caster will have all of these counter-measured prepared. Is every caster already flying when the fight starts? If not, the Fighter has a chance to get in range and prevent the casting. If so, then why isn't the party Wizard also casting Fly on the Fighter?

Rutee
2008-05-14, 01:50 AM
CoV, why do you treat this as A Quien es Mas Macho Optimization contest? Frosty didn't talk about fighting an optimized wizard of ludicrousness that can take an even level party. He's talking about a regular game situation. Gods in heaven.

Frosty
2008-05-14, 01:53 AM
A Quien es Mas Macho

Is this spanish for "Who is more Macho?"

Rutee
2008-05-14, 01:59 AM
"Quien es Mas Macho" is "Who's more manly", effectively.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-14, 02:22 AM
You're preventing the wizard from casting. That by itself is enough. If he moves, you get to smack him. If he casts, you get to smack him.

No you don't. If he moves you don't get an AoO because he has concealment. If he casts, you still don't get an AoO because he has concealment.


You close in on him by surprising him. You have this thing called a PARTY to support you. The party scouter scouts ahead to see what's up, and then tells the party how to prepare. You can be Invisibilitied and then Non-detectioned by your allied casters. You can also try Dust of Disappearance so that See Invisibility does nothing.

Oh I see, so you start adjacent to a Wizard of your level with a party that includes another Wizard. If you can catch everyone by surprise no one actually needs you, because they can just have the Ubercharger kill it in one round.

Seriously, your contention is that 1+1+1+7>7? Wow, so surprised (by the way, the ones are everyone but your party Wizard, I don't actually view them as that, but they might as well be, since you apparently require a Wizard of equal level to your opponent to do anything.) What if, God forbid, the Wizard had a party? Would you just cry about how the mean DM killed you with his cheatery?


And I find it amusing that you assume every single caster will have all of these counter-measured prepared.

You misunderstand, it's not "all these countermeasures" it's any one of these ten things that all on their own negate your character.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-14, 02:31 AM
And in the mean time, when I won init from hundreds of feet away up in the air, I would have killed you.

Okay, that's too much. What the hell kind of fight would reasonably start with the Wizard already flying too far away for the Fighter to even get near? That's like saying you start the fight with the fighter in an iron cage, or that you start the fight with a scroll of the epic-level spell "Power Word: Win." And you said starting with the Wizard in reach of the Fighter was illegitimate!


Then I would punch them in the face and laugh at your pathetic "Lockdown" build that can't use ToB.

Being able to be competent with fewer books is a good thing. Not every DM allows everything, and if you can't make a useful build without a specific overpowered sourcebook you aren't good at optimization.


Or I would just never stand adjacent to my enemy to begin with, or I would use Shapechange or Tumble like I already said I would.

Those are not your choice and not a skill that any single-class Wizard can use effectively, respectively.


As for at level 6. I would ignore you because you don't have Mage Slayer, and I would tumble because you don't have Thicket of Blades, and I would continue flying because you can't catch me and I can still hit you, and I would laugh when the enemy Wizard cast Dispel Magic as if it would actually do anything, and I would have already Webbed or Glitterdusted you anyway and you wouldn't even get AoOs or be able to move, and I would have Stinking Clouded your entire party right off the bat and watched my party mop up on your Rogue/Wizard and possibly you and the Cleric who failed your Fort saves, and I would have just generally laughed at how "awesome" you think "Lockdown" builds are even though they can't actually lockdown anything.

You've gone mad. Not mad with power, just mad. You still provoke attacks of opportunity if your enemy doesn't have Mage Slayer, and you won't always win Concentration. At level 6, you can't have much more than +6 to Tumble, tops. Dispel Magic works on things. Your Wizard is not immune to everything. You cannot cast Fly, Web, and Stinking Cloud all in one round. You can fail saves just as often as your opponents can. Lockdown builds work, that's why people freaking build them. And that's without mentioning that you can't always win initiative, which as you may recall is pertinent to this discussion.


And where exactly did I claim Wizards were invincible at level 6?

In the paragraph above. And when you said "Pick a level, I'll tell you exactly how a Wizard deals with your lockdown."

EDIT: Revised and updated!


No you don't. If he moves you don't get an AoO because he has concealment. If he casts, you still don't get an AoO because he has concealment.

So your Wizard starts not only flying several hundred feet away, but also invisible? At level 6, you'll be running out of level 3 slots even before the fight starts.


Oh I see, so you start adjacent to a Wizard of your level with a party that includes another Wizard. If you can catch everyone by surprise no one actually needs you, because they can just have the Ubercharger kill it in one round.

Starts next to OR starts far away from with his party, not both.


You misunderstand, it's not "all these countermeasures" it's any one of these ten things that all on their own negate your character.

No. No, it's not any of them on there own. There are countermeasures for all of your countermeasures, and it is reasonable for a Fighter to have most of them.

Kompera
2008-05-14, 06:08 AM
(Hint: XR spells are -not- efficient.)
Perhaps not, but they are versatile and they scale with your position. Draw a 1 mana cost card on your 6th turn and you're likely to be casting it and be left with unused mana and a very small effect from that card. Draw a Fireball and you're doing (mana -1 damage) if you want to.
So you want to draw a Lightning Bolt on turn 1 and a Fireball on turn 6. And now back to our regularly scheduled "Wizard vs. Fighter" thread. :smallannoyed:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-14, 07:29 AM
Okay, that's too much. What the hell kind of fight would reasonably start with the Wizard already flying too far away for the Fighter to even get near? That's like saying you start the fight with the fighter in an iron cage, or that you start the fight with a scroll of the epic-level spell "Power Word: Win." And you said starting with the Wizard in reach of the Fighter was illegitimate!

How about every fight after level 12, because that's the level where Wizards can fly all freaking day without caring, and because 90% of fights start with the Fighter too far away to do anything.


Being able to be competent with fewer books is a good thing. Not every DM allows everything, and if you can't make a useful build without a specific overpowered sourcebook you aren't good at optimization.

Thank you for proving my point for me. My Core Wizard is awesome, my Core + other books is even better. A Lockdown build that doesn't have Complete Arcane and ToB and XPH (all three) as an available book might as well not exist, since it can't actually do anything.

I'm not book reliant, the fact that I only have 3 or so options in Core to beat a Lockdown build using every book in existence favors me over the Lockdown.


Those are not your choice and not a skill that any single-class Wizard can use effectively, respectively.

1) Yes, Shapechange is my choice, I get to shapechange into whatever I want, that's what the spell does.

2) It's a skill that nearly every Wizard I've ever had cross-classes, and then can easily make the DC 15 Tumble check. In fact, my average 28 PB Wizard has a +9 modifier at level 6, much more at anything higher.


You still provoke attacks of opportunity if your enemy doesn't have Mage Slayer, and you won't always win Concentration.

Not when you have concealment, welcome to D&D. And yes, in practice you will always make your concentration check. Not at level 6, because I usually only have a +13 modifier for a DC 18 check, but at level 12 I can't possibly fail, and long before then I have such a high chance that I might as well.


At level 6, you can't have much more than +6 to Tumble, tops. Dispel Magic works on things.

As I said, I usually have a +9 there, more with a higher PB. And no, Dispel Magic does not work, because on must roll higher on the CL check. If the Wizard (the one doing all the work for the Lockdown build by Nauseating the enemies to be "Locked") casts Dispel Magic, then he has a less then 50% chance of doing anything, and he wasted a high level slot and an action. Even if he succeeds the action of casting Stinking Cloud on the entire party far supasses that action. In fact, no Wizard of that level who wasn't taking the very specialized set of feats and abilities to be a dispeller would even have Dispel Magic memorized, precisely because it is using high level slots to do basically nothing.


You cannot cast Fly, Web, and Stinking Cloud all in one round.

No, but if I cast a single one of those, then the Lockdown character is useless, and in fact, I could have cast Fly (or Alter Self) 5 minutes ago (or 50 minutes ago).


You can fail saves just as often as your opponents can.

Yes, and if I fail a save against Stinking Cloud, then the Lockdown character has a worth of negative to the party, because he could have been more useful as a Wizard/Cleric/Rogue/Ubercharger/anything at all really.


Lockdown builds work, that's why people freaking build them. And that's without mentioning that you can't always win initiative, which as you may recall is pertinent to this discussion.

No, people build Lockdown builds because they like to point out how when every single possible situation favors that specific character, it takes a Wizard more then 2 rounds to declare victory. That and they work on non-spellcasters, but then again, what doesn't.

You are right, at level 20, sure I automatically win Init, but at level 6 on 28PB I only have an Init mod of +11, so it is possible for me to lose, luckily I won't be standing within 60ft of him when Init is rolled, so I'll just wait for him to move, then do perform my normal actions.


In the paragraph above. And when you said "Pick a level, I'll tell you exactly how a Wizard deals with your lockdown."

Do you not even see how stupid it is to claim that the above statement is equivalent to me claiming Wizard invincibility at level 6?


So your Wizard starts not only flying several hundred feet away, but also invisible? At level 6, you'll be running out of level 3 slots even before the fight starts.

No, he starts off either:

1) several hundred feet away
2) Invisible
3) Flying

Any one of those three means that the Lockdown character doesn't matter at all.


Starts next to OR starts far away from with his party, not both.

No, because if it's one or the other, the Wizard wins. If they are far away, he Stinking Clouds/Webs them and then his friends clean up the mess. If he starts adjacent he merely tumbles away or uses his anklet or moves away without provoking an AoO thanks to Concealment.


No. No, it's not any of them on there own. There are countermeasures for all of your countermeasures, and it is reasonable for a Fighter to have most of them.

No there aren't. Every time a situation no matter how horribly one sided has been presented, I have pointed to a series of possible options for the Wizard to win, and my opposition, completely unable to counter these arguments has resorted to insisting that we disallow each book that I use, while still of course allowing all the ones that are required for Lockdown, and then changing the levels of combat to avoid each of my previous tactics. (No to mention choosing level 6, despite the fact that at 7 I'm rocking with new spells, and at 5 I was using the same spells to continuously kick ass when you didn't have two of the feats you need.)

Frosty
2008-05-14, 09:42 AM
Please show me what page in the PHB it says you cn't make AoO due to CONCEALMENT. It doesn't. You can't make AoO if your target has COVER. Thre's a difference. You won't always have cover.

And no, you won't be flying all the time because half the time, you'll be fighting indoors, with a 10 to 15 feet high ceiling, and the room will only be like 120 by 60 ft. In a featureless plain, Mr Lockdown does worse duh. In a real dungeon where you have to GUESS when you buff, and where there might be traps of Dispel Magic, you do not always have the opportunity to enter combat complete buffed. What is your strategy when you can't fly and you can't use items of swift teleport? In my battles 50% of the time the Fighter can reach the Wizard on turn one, and that is how games are normally played in those small, cramped DUNGEONS, not CoV's theoretical games that maybe only 5% of the population experience.

Let's see some hands here. Who here plays games where Wizards are always out of reach of the enemy? Who here plays has been in more games where there are houserules nerfing casters more than nerfing Fighter-types? Who here has been in situations where you have been inconvenienced by a Fighter-type as a wizard? Who here, has, on occasion, waded through a dungeon that has had some sort of permanent Dimensional Lock effect (maybe from Unhallow?) that the BBEG put in place to prevent the "port in, grab/kill, port out" scenario?

In real games, there will be situations where Wizards are invincible, yes. There will also be many situations where he actually needs help because the world has many dangerous places that wizards can't handle at levels 16 and below. At level 17 and above, more houserules would need to be introduced to keep wizards from going out of hand such as no Shapechange or Polymorph. No DM worth his salt is going to let Wiards always be in an advantageous situation, and it is in those games I speak of that regular Joe Fighter can contribute.

And don't forget, Lockdown works against non-wizards too. There are plenty of spellcasters that don't have all of those options.

Yes, in a situation which has houserules (which most games have) and is designed by the DM sometimes to not favor wizards (which DEFINITELY happen because it is a real game and the other players agree), Mr lockdown has his time and place. In a situation with no DM-oversight and complete, RAW, Wizard wins every time unless against Planar Shepherd, and no one plays those games.

Aquillion
2008-05-14, 11:58 AM
Or they could both be Superior Invisible, Mindblanked, and Non-Detectioned 240ft away from each other and not even know the other one exists, and never ever be able to kill the other one.Well, as long as they know the other wizard exists (necessary for this to be a fight, which was the premise), that's no problem. Invisibility doesn't prevent line of effect. As long as you have a way of targeting people with total concealment (Magic Missile will do it at the range you specified for a level 20 wizard) and have some way of specifying your target, it will hit them whether they're visible or not.

Yahzi
2008-05-15, 12:59 AM
But since this is totally off-topic, I'll shut up now.
Off topic? It wasn't even in English. :smallbiggrin:

(I used to play MTG - even owned a full set of Moxes. But the jargon you used just made me realize I'm old.)