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Saph
2008-05-13, 03:04 PM
Here's a character build that I've been playing with and tuning for a few months. Credit for the initial idea goes to Rachel Lorelei, and a few of the tricks are copied from Person Man's builds. The rest is the result of experimentation.

People often come to these boards looking for suggestions on how to make a character. Some of the ideas they get are good; however, I've noticed the advice tends to have a few limitations.

• It assumes too high a level. Many D&D games start at level 1 and most never go beyond level 10.
• It assumes too many books. The only material that you can really count on a player having access to is the PHB and (probably) the DMG and MM. Even Core-only can't be assumed - not everyone uses the SRD.
• Too much of the advice boils down to "play a caster". Not everyone wants to play a caster, and at low levels they aren't all that great anyway.

This is a general-purpose melee build designed to be useful in as many different types of game as possible, and IMO it's arguably the strongest core fighter available. First I'll do the build, then cover ways to adapt it depending on what you have access to.


Horizon Tripper


Levels: Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 3 / Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) 10 / whatever you like for the last few levels.

Alternate route: If you're starting at level 3 or higher, you can go Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger 2, instead, then Horizon Walker as above. This costs you a couple of HP, but gives you more skill points - at higher levels, this is a worthwhile tradeoff.

Alternate route 2: Taking Ranger at level 1, then two levels of Barbarian, then a final level of Ranger, gives you Uncanny Dodge and slightly more hit points and skill points. However, you end up with one less feat. Swings and roundabouts.

Stats: Str > Dex/Con > Int > Wis > Cha. Try to get an Int of at least 13 - if you can't, look under Adaptions (All Core).

Race: Any, though the build I list assumes Human. If you play a race which doesn't have Favoured Class (Ranger or Any), you'll need to avoid multiclassing XP penalties by replacing one level of Ranger with Fighter and getting the Endurance feat that way instead.

Feats: In order - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Human bonus feat), Combat Reflexes (Fighter bonus feat), Power Attack, Track (Ranger bonus feat), Endurance (Ranger bonus feat), Diehard. This takes you up to level 6; customise to taste thereafter. If not human, take Power Attack instead of Diehard at level 6.

Class Features: You won't be getting much use out of either of the Ranger Combat Styles, so pick whichever you feel like. For the Horizon Walker's terrain mastery abilities, take Underground, Desert, Hills, and Plains. For the planar terrain mastery, your first choice should be Shifting - after that take Cavernous, Aligned, Fiery, and Cold.

Skills: Max out Survival, Listen, and Tumble (cross-class) to start with. Once you start getting Ranger levels, max out Spot and Knowledge (Geography) as well - you need 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) to qualify for Horizon Walker. Use your Fighter level to make sure you have 5 ranks in Jump. Spend your remaining ranks on Climb, Handle Animal, Ride, or whatever else you feel like.

Alternate route: If you're starting with Ranger, things are easier. Max out Listen, Spot, Survival, Knowledge (geography), and Tumble. That still leaves you a few skill points, which you can put into Hide and Move Silently, or something more unusual like Balance or Knowledge (Nature).

Equipment: For armour, get studded leather at level 1, a masterwork chain shirt at level 2, a mithral chain shirt at level 3, and a magic mithral chain shirt from level 4 onwards.
For weapons, get a guisarme, upgraded to masterwork and magic when possible. Also get armour spikes or a spiked gauntlet for close-in work, a ranged weapon for sniping, and a bludgeoning weapon as a backup.
For other equipment, buy potions of enlarge person. They're only 50 gold each and weigh nothing, so carry a stack of them. Also buy a masterwork tool for the Tumble skill and a wand of cure light wounds at first opportunity (probably level 3, unless you can get the rest of the party to chip in).


Explanations and Notes


With a speed of 40 from your barbarian Fast Movement, you'll probably be the fastest character in the party. Use your speed to position yourself so that enemies have to move through your reach to attack, allowing you to attack or trip them. Your AC will be low for a fighter, but enemies will have to reach you to hit you, and Combat Reflexes gives you a good chance of either killing or tripping many enemies before they get into range.

Against Large opponents you should use the first round of combat to drink a potion of enlarge person (a CL 1 potion costs 50 gold and lasts 1 minute). This increases your guisarme reach to 15-20 feet and gives you an effective bonus to your trip checks of +5; this is enough to give you good odds of tripping even big critters. Note that enlarging costs you a turn and effectively reduces your AC by 2, so only use it when you need it.

If (when) opponents get inside your reach, you have three options. You can 5-foot step and hit them, you can withdraw out of range, or you can use Tumble. Note that even though Tumble isn't a class skill for you, as early as level 3 your Tumble modifier will be 3 (ranks) +2ish (Dex) +2 (tool) +2 (Jump synergy) = +9, which gives you 75% odds of moving out of an enemy square without drawing an AoO.

You also have a bunch of other abilities to draw upon which give you things to do outside of combat:

• Skills: you'll have maxed Listen and Spot skills pretty early, and once you get the Hills and Plains terrain masteries you'll have the joint best Listen/Spot scores around, tied only with a druid. You also have Survival and Track, and a great Jump score.
• Healing: you can use a wand of cure light wounds, the standard healing item for everyone who doesn't have access to the Spell or Magic Item Compendiums.
• Class features: Shifting, see below.

The build is playable and effective from level 1, though it gets much better at level 2 (Combat Reflexes). After that you get slow, steady improvement in all areas until level 11, where you get the Shifting planar terrain mastery, allowing you to use Dimension Door at will every 1d4 rounds. The big weakness of melee characters is mobility; guess what just got solved? For extra fun, don't forget that you can bring other people with you, making you the day-long party taxicab should you feel like it.

The other Planar Terrain Mastery abilities are just bonuses. Tremorsense lets you spot invisible and burrowing enemies and be less scared of blinding, and Aligned gives you immunity to unholy blight and the very nasty blasphemy that practically every evil outsider with double-digit CR seems to have. Fire and cold resist 20 never hurts either.

From level 6 up you've got pretty much all the good core melee feats, so your choice from there is a matter of preference. Since the crappy Endurance feat is a prerequisite for the Horizon Walker class, you may as well take advantage of it by getting Diehard, allowing you to heal yourself once you've gone down. Another option is to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) at the early levels, and wait until level 6 for Power Attack. The spiked chain does the same damage as a guisarme, but threatens at close range as well as at reach. Whether that's worth a feat is arguable. I don't generally use spiked chains with my characters, but that's more because I think the weapon's kind of silly.


Adaptions


The Horizon Tripper works with nothing but the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide. However, if you've got access to other books, you can improve it.

All Core: If everything in the SRD is allowed, then instead of Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1, go Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, giving you the Improved Trip feat for free, even if you don't have a high enough Int. Use the extra feat to get the very useful Knockdown. Hold the Line might be worth taking, too.

Complete Warrior: The Extra Rage feat is great when combined with the fatigue-immunity of the Desert terrain mastery - rage every battle with no drawbacks! You can also go the Shock Trooper route, which synergises very well with Knockdown.

Magic Item Compendium: Lots of good stuff here. Pick up the Bracers of Opportunity for the +2 to AoO's, and an Anklet of Translocation in the early levels to let you 5-foot step, full attack, and then teleport away. Too many other good items to mention.

Tome of Battle: Once Tome of Battle is allowed, you don't really need this build anymore - the whole point of the Horizon Tripper is to give you the same sort of flexibility and general fun-ness that Tome of Battle characters have without going outside core, as many DMs don't allow ToB. That said, putting Warblade into the initial few levels gives you lots of benefits for virtually no drawbacks. Warblade 1 / Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 / Fighter 1 / Ranger 1 is probably the best arrangement.


Finishing Up


Having tried a few different versions of this build in games, I think it's probably the strongest all-round PHB- and DMG-only fighter build possible. The only option that may be better is the Mounted Combat route (which has higher damage potential), but the Horizon Tripper doesn't require a mount and has better skills and out-of-combat perks.

The real reason I like this build is that it's not only effective, but fun. A big problem with fighter-type characters in core-only games is that they're boring - they have very few options except "I hit it again" and they can't do anything out of combat. This build has several more combat options and is just as happy out of combat, since having good awareness skills is usually a good way to make sure you're involved in the adventure no matter what's happening. It doesn't require much bookkeeping, it's not very complicated to play, and RP-wise, it's fairly generic, meaning that it can be adapted to most backgrounds ("wandery-fighty-type" fits most fighter character concepts).

And that's it, at least for now. I'm playing a version of this in a current game, so I might update it as the campaign progresses.

- Saph

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-13, 03:16 PM
Credit for the idea goes to me? I don't remember posting anything about this, although I am a fan of that general build for core melee.
I'd go Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2 for entry, myself, and wouldn't take HW past 7th.

Frosty
2008-05-13, 03:17 PM
Very nice :)

Query: Why not go Ranger first level for more skill points?

Chronos
2008-05-13, 03:30 PM
It should also be noted that unless you play a human or Wood Elf, you're going to be looking at multiclass penalties. Which isn't too bad, since those are probably the best two races to use for this build, anyway.

Saph
2008-05-13, 03:32 PM
Credit for the idea goes to me? I don't remember posting anything about this, although I am a fan of that general build for core melee.

There was a thread a long time ago about bad classes, or bad prestige classes, or something like that. You mentioned the Barb/Fighter/Ranger/HW combination there, and I worked on it there on.


I'd go Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2 for entry, myself, and wouldn't take HW past 7th.

Fighter 1/Ranger 3 is strictly better than Fighter 2/Ranger 2, IMO, because HW requires the Endurance feat. Ranger level 3 gives you Endurance for free, and also gives you lots more skill points to play with. So unless you really, really want the 1 extra HP that the Fighter level gives you, there's no reason to take that level in Fighter (since you have to burn the Fighter feat on Endurance anyway).

Taking HW past 7th is arguable, but there isn't much else for a melee character in core.


Very nice :)

Query: Why not go Ranger first level for more skill points?

It's a choice between 2 extra hit points or 6 extra skill points. Ranger first is probably a better option if you're starting at a higher level. At low levels, though, the extra HP you get from Barbarian first can make a difference.

- Saph

Sholos
2008-05-13, 04:13 PM
Is the only reason not to use a Spiked Chain with this that you need a feat to use it?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-05-13, 04:20 PM
There was a thread a long time ago about bad classes, or bad prestige classes, or something like that. You mentioned the Barb/Fighter/Ranger/HW combination there, and I worked on it there on.

Aha, I see.


Fighter 1/Ranger 3 is strictly better than Fighter 2/Ranger 2, IMO, because HW requires the Endurance feat. Ranger level 3 gives you Endurance for free, and also gives you lots more skill points to play with. So unless you really, really want the 1 extra HP that the Fighter level gives you, there's no reason to take that level in Fighter (since you have to burn the Fighter feat on Endurance anyway).
Whoops, forgot all about the Endurance requirement.
Maybe just Ranger 1 is enough? I can't see TWF or Rapid Shot being very useful.


Is the only reason not to use a Spiked Chain with this that you need a feat to use it?
You can just use a guisarme and a spiked gauntlet instead... but you'll almost never need the gauntlet; you can just 5-foot step.

The biggest reason is that the spiked chain is totally ridiculous, though.

Draz74
2008-05-13, 04:27 PM
Good guide. Almost worth stickying. :smallwink:

I'd just like to point out that Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is the only non-Core thing needed to play a great Mounted Combat fighter build. Since it's free online, all DMs should have access to it (although whether they'll allow it is, of course, still up in the air).

Oh, and if the SRD is allowed, a better Tripper build can be made out of Psychic Warrior (or some combination of Psychic Warrior, Fighter dips, Ranger dips, Slayer, and War Mind) than the Adaption you mention.

Keld Denar
2008-05-13, 04:56 PM
If Complete Warrior is in, and you opt Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme, 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master fleshes out the build well. Flurry of Strikes is an amazing ability, as increasing number of attacks increases damage geometrically, especially since its a 2handed attack.

Also, while the wording is a little against you, you might ask a DM if the Flurry of Strikes ability is close enough to the Flurry of Blows ability of a monk. If yes, you qualify for the Sun School tactical feat, which has all kinds of fun features. The most impessive of which is the ability to make a single attack on the tail end of a dimension door or dimension door-like ability. Since you have Shifting Mastery, essentially dim door at will, you can blink in behind someone, initiate a trip as your free attack, and then follow up with an Improved Trip attack once they are down. No one will be able to run from you without teleporting, because you'll just blink in behind them and whack em every time. The knockback ability is also kind of nice, especially since this movement provokes so you can push people past your allies for mega damage.

And Saph, no love for Aligned Planar Mastery? Immunity to all aligned spells including Blasphemy, arguably one of the strongest and most often used abilities of core evil outsiders. It works because you can emulate the planar alignment of any plane, and you take all of your terrain masteries with you regardless of your current location. You could also use items that impose negative levels (such as a Holy sword if you are evil, or an Unholy sword if you're good, for example, or different aligned artifacts or relics). Personally, I think its worth more than cold resist 20, considering unless your DM uses Frostburn, only ~2 monsters (Winterwolf/IceDevil) and ~5 core spells (Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Chill Metal, Fire Shield (cool), Wall of Ice) use cold damage. Fire is a lot more common, so that would probably be worth it.

kc0bbq
2008-05-13, 04:59 PM
A masterwork tool for tumbling kind of stretches disbelief a little bit. The SRD description of masterwork tools has to be read a bit crosseyed to justify that.

Keld Denar
2008-05-13, 05:11 PM
A masterwork tool for tumbling kind of stretches disbelief a little bit. The SRD description of masterwork tools has to be read a bit crosseyed to justify that.

Queue "Robin Hood, Men in Tights" music.

Its called Spandax, and it'll help you with all of your tumbling needs.

What, they didn't have polypropaline in D&D? Not my fault!

Draz74
2008-05-13, 05:12 PM
Also, while the wording is a little against you, you might ask a DM if the Flurry of Strikes ability is close enough to the Flurry of Blows ability of a monk. If yes, you qualify for the Sun School tactical feat, which has all kinds of fun features.
This strikes me as pure house rule, no Rules-As-Intended (nor RAW). I doubt many DMs will go for it ...


And Saph, no love for Aligned Planar Mastery? Immunity to all aligned spells including Blasphemy, arguably one of the strongest and most often used abilities of core evil outsiders. It works because you can emulate the planar alignment of any plane, and you take all of your terrain masteries with you regardless of your current location.
Oooh, good call! This ability is indeed usually ignored, because it doesn't do what you think it does -- and many DMs house rule it to do what they think it should do. But if you can get your DM to read it carefully and actually accept what it says, it's a very nice defensive ability.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-13, 05:13 PM
A masterwork tool for tumbling kind of stretches disbelief a little bit. The SRD description of masterwork tools has to be read a bit crosseyed to justify that.

What? No it doesn't. Padding around your joints, in your armor. That way it doesn't, you know, hurt so much.

Saph
2008-05-13, 05:16 PM
Whoops, forgot all about the Endurance requirement. Maybe just Ranger 1 is enough? I can't see TWF or Rapid Shot being very useful.

It's mostly for the skills. Having a high Listen/Spot, and Track/Survival, means you can contribute more out-of-combat. That said, you can scrape 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) with only one Ranger level if you want, which gives you a few more HP.


Oh, and if the SRD is allowed, a better Tripper build can be made out of Psychic Warrior (or some combination of Psychic Warrior, Fighter dips, Ranger dips, Slayer, and War Mind) than the Adaption you mention.

What were you thinking of? The best thing Psywarriors get for Tripping is Expansion, but you can mostly duplicate that with Enlarge potions. I suppose Force Screen would be nice.


And Saph, no love for Aligned Planar Mastery? Immunity to all aligned spells including Blasphemy, arguably one of the strongest and most often used abilities of core evil outsiders. It works because you can emulate the planar alignment of any plane, and you take all of your terrain masteries with you regardless of your current location. You could also use items that impose negative levels (such as a Holy sword if you are evil, or an Unholy sword if you're good, for example, or different aligned artifacts or relics). Personally, I think its worth more than cold resist 20, considering unless your DM uses Frostburn, only ~2 monsters (Winterwolf/IceDevil) and ~5 core spells (Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Chill Metal, Fire Shield (cool), Wall of Ice) use cold damage. Fire is a lot more common, so that would probably be worth it.

I've never played this build at high levels, so I haven't tried that part out. As for Aligned, I missed the clause in it that makes you immune to Blasphemy. You're right, that's nice. :) Worth getting before Cold (but you might as well get both, as there are only six planar terrains to choose from). I'll edit that in.

- Saph

Keld Denar
2008-05-13, 05:27 PM
This strikes me as pure house rule, no Rules-As-Intended (nor RAW). I doubt many DMs will go for it ...


Mechanically, they are almost the same ability. -2 to all attacks in a full attack for and extra attack at your highest AB. The only major difference is that now in 3.5, a monk eventually buys off this penalty, and then gains even more attacks. Regardless, mechanically, they are the same. Flavor wise, blinking behind someone to get a sucker punch is the WHOLE basis behind the Nightcrawler character of X-Men fame, and hitting someone so fiercely that they stagger backwards befits a flashing flurry of chain as much as a relentless rain of fists. You are right, it IS a house rule, which I disclaimed at the top of my post suggesting it, but its 1 word difference (Strikes vs Blows) each with similar meanings.

Plus, Sun School is a neat and flavorful feat, but no one is ever gonna take it because it pretty much requires being a monk, which is a bad deal no matter how you slice it. Why not give it a little space to run free and play with the other tactical feats that do get used, like Shocktrooper, Combat Brute, or Elusive Target?

Chronos
2008-05-13, 05:49 PM
Personally, I think its worth more than cold resist 20, considering unless your DM uses Frostburn, only ~2 monsters (Winterwolf/IceDevil) and ~5 core spells (Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Chill Metal, Fire Shield (cool), Wall of Ice) use cold damage.Well, there's also cryohydras and a couple of kinds of dragons, plus Ray of Frost (significant if a rogue's got a wand of it), Ice Storm, and [Otiluke's] Freezing Sphere. But yeah, it's still nowhere near as common as fire.

Swooper
2008-05-13, 07:35 PM
Very interesting. I didn't realise you could make builds this interesting with nothing but core :smallsmile: Tiny nitpick though:


For other equipment, buy potions of enlarge person. They're only 50 gold each, so carry a stack of them.
For some obscure reason, these are 250gp each unlike most lvl 1 potions. See here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm)

Frosty
2008-05-13, 07:37 PM
That's because those have a CL of 5. Buy some with CL of 1 and they're 50 gold each.

Swooper
2008-05-13, 08:02 PM
Hmm, I suppose that makes sense. It doesn't say they're CL5 anywhere, though. Just implied through the potion-cost rules.

Saph
2008-05-14, 08:23 AM
Hmm, I suppose that makes sense. It doesn't say they're CL5 anywhere, though. Just implied through the potion-cost rules.

My guess is that's a leftover from the previous edition. In 3.0, Enlarge and Reduce both altered a target by 10% by caster level, up to a maximum of 50%. So the standard CL for an Enlarge or Reduce scroll or potion was 5.

They changed that in 3.5, but it looks like they forgot to take it into account with the treasure generation. Anyway, Enlarge potions follow the formula like any other as far as I know.

- Saph

Lucyfur
2008-05-14, 08:38 AM
Good post.

Also, it's always fun to Dimention Door 200 ft above a squishy mage and fall on top of hir. KABLAMO!

Torger
2008-05-14, 08:58 AM
A few nitpicks...

What, pray tell, would a tumble tool be, aside for a rules exploitation that any conscious DM would disallow on spec?

How are you going to activate the and of CLW?

I think it's been addressed, but Enlarge Person is five times the cost you've listed, as I recall.

Kudos, though, on not using a spiked chain.

Frosty
2008-05-14, 09:13 AM
Well, if MW toold don't work, magical Nikes of +2 Tumble is only 400 gold...

Lucyfur
2008-05-14, 09:17 AM
Well, if MW toold don't work, magical Nikes of +2 Tumble is only 400 gold...

I lol'ed.

But really springy shoes would count for a nonmagical tumble enhancer if I was DMing.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-14, 09:22 AM
Something to add: It would be pure houseruling, but if you could import a Dagger Whip, it's the best weapon for trippers, hands down. Up to 15' around you fully covered before you even factor Enlarge person? Oh, boy it's a wet dream.

Keld Denar
2008-05-14, 09:28 AM
Something to add: It would be pure houseruling, but if you could import a Dagger Whip, it's the best weapon for trippers, hands down. Up to 15' around you fully covered before you even factor Enlarge person?

Whips and Whip Daggers don't threaten, so you can't use them in any type of lock down build.



Oh, boy it's a wet dream.

Leave your personal life at home plz.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-14, 09:33 AM
*Checks 3.0 material*

Nope, it says Whip daggers threaten, but normal whips don't.

Torger
2008-05-14, 10:35 AM
But really springy shoes would count for a nonmagical tumble enhancer if I was DMing.

How do springy shoes help you tuck and roll? You're supposed to be doing shoulder rolls out of danger, not leaping off the screen a la Gau from FF6.

Draz74
2008-05-14, 10:56 AM
What were you thinking of? The best thing Psywarriors get for Tripping is Expansion, but you can mostly duplicate that with Enlarge potions. I suppose Force Screen would be nice.

Expansion is way better than Potions (except at very low levels, when its duration is too short). It doesn't cost any money; it doesn't require you to keep finding well-stocked potions shops or mages who can brew the potions for you; and its Augmentations are all very nice. (Quicken it without needing the Quicken Power feat; make its duration longer than Enlarge Person's; or another size category of growth!)

For trippers, specifically, there's not too much else. Animal Affinity will get you +4 Strength long before you can afford a Belt of Giant Strength, in case you don't have a party prepared to cast Bull's Strength on you. Prowess gives you a fallback in case you have 1 fewer Attack of Opportunity than you end up needing. And do I really need to explain the virtues of Hustle or Psionic Lion's Charge for any melee build?

But besides tripper-specific things, there are just so many great resources available to a Psychic Warrior anyway. Force Screen, like you said, is a good boost. If you really care about your AC, you can do so much more than that. How about a combination:

+1 Padded Armor of Heavy Fortification, Inertial Armor (augments well!), Force Screen, Defensive Precognition, Thicken Skin, Mental Barrier, Inertial Barrier, Greater Concealing Amorpha. Oh yeah, and Vigor.

That's a very well-protected character against physical attacks.

Or, if you want defenses vs. magic:

Defensive Precognition, (Specified) Energy Adaptation, Thought Shield/Personal Mind Blank, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Dispelling Buffer.

Or there's a few other powers that are just awesome:

Metaphysical Weapon (better than Greater Magic Weapon)
Prevenom Weapon
Detect Hostile Intent
Adapt Body

SamTheCleric
2008-05-14, 11:30 AM
To answer the question on Cure Light Wounds Wands...

As cure light wounds appears on the Ranger spell list, a ranger can use a wand of it without issue.


Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.)

Lucyfur
2008-05-14, 11:30 AM
How do springy shoes help you tuck and roll? You're supposed to be doing shoulder rolls out of danger, not leaping off the screen a la Gau from FF6.

But that's exactly how Tumble works in my game. :smallbiggrin: Doing tripple summersalts in the air over the BBEGs head.

Torger
2008-05-14, 11:44 AM
To answer the question on Cure Light Wounds Wands...

As cure light wounds appears on the Ranger spell list, a ranger can use a wand of it without issue.

That's patently ridiculous, but then, the RAW often is. Why not take one level of Wizard and drop all your coin on Wands? UMD is suddenly an unnecessary skill.

Im calling bunk on this one...

SamTheCleric
2008-05-14, 11:47 AM
Because wands are expensive and only go up to 4th level?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-14, 12:49 PM
Because you're wasting a level?

Ralfarius
2008-05-14, 01:26 PM
Because nonhuman races without the wizard favoured class will be eating it in XP in addition to wasting a level?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-14, 01:28 PM
In conclusion,
http://ui04.gamespot.com/2051/mariopwnt_2.jpg

Occasional Sage
2008-05-14, 03:03 PM
It's mostly for the skills. Having a high Listen/Spot, and Track/Survival, means you can contribute more out-of-combat. That said, you can scrape 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) with only one Ranger level if you want, which gives you a few more HP.
*snip*

- Saph

My internet is kinda hampered at work, so maybe this is a blatantly dumb question, but: how are you getting K:G 8 out of one level? Skills max at 3+(levels with K:G as a class skill)+.5(all other levels); that means that (if I recall class skills correctly) you need five levels of Bard, Ranger, or Wizard before qualifying for HW, or two levels of other classes for each B/R/W you lack. What other rule am I forgetting that's allowing you to do this?

By the way, thanks for posting this! I'm more than a little fascinated by this build.

Keld Denar
2008-05-14, 03:07 PM
That's patently ridiculous, but then, the RAW often is. Why not take one level of Wizard and drop all your coin on Wands? UMD is suddenly an unnecessary skill.

Im calling bunk on this one...

Its true, open your DMG to the Magic Items chapter and look at spell trigger items, of which Wands fall under. The only requirement is that the spell in the Wand appear on the classes spell list. You could indeed take a whole level of wizard to be able to use every arcane wand and staff, but why would you, unless you were a wizard. Dipping for wand use is a poor reason to dip. There are good reasons to dip, this just isn't one of them.

Keld Denar
2008-05-14, 03:16 PM
My internet is kinda hampered at work, so maybe this is a blatantly dumb question, but: how are you getting K:G 8 out of one level? Skills max at 3+(levels with K:G as a class skill)+.5(all other levels); that means that (if I recall class skills correctly) you need five levels of Bard, Ranger, or Wizard before qualifying for HW, or two levels of other classes for each B/R/W you lack. What other rule am I forgetting that's allowing you to do this?


Crossclass skills are a little confusing. There are 2 things to keep in mind when buying skill ranks. First is the maximum possible. The max possible for a class skill is (lvl+3) and for a crossclass skill is (lvl+3)/2. The thing about this is that once a skill has appeared as a class skill on any of your levels, that maximum is always and forevermore capped at the class skill level.

Secondly, when buying skill ranks at each level, you buy class skills at 1:1 and crossclass skills at 2:1. The maximum you can spend is capped only by the above rule and the number of skill points you get in a level.

For example, above, the character took a level of Ranger first, which added Kn:Geography as a class skill. She bought the skill ranks at 1:1, out to a max of 4 (1+3). At 2nd level, she took fighter, and had to buy ranks at 2:1, although the previous cap remained the same (now 2+3=5). Forever more, if the character never takes another class with Kn:Geo, she could continue to buy ranks at 2:1 up to the max cap.

Now, if said character took a level of rogue at 7th and was receiving 10 skill points for that rogue level, the character could sink ALL 10 points into Use Magic Device, since she can buy the ranks at 1:1 and UMD now appears on her class list.

To wrap up:
When considering skill maximums, once a class skill, always a class skill.
When considering skill costs, only current classes class skills are 1:1.

Not that hard once you realize this, but its kind of difficult to gleam from the rule book.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-14, 03:23 PM
Crossclass skills are a little confusing. *snip*

To wrap up:
When considering skill maximums, once a class skill, always a class skill.
When considering skill costs, only current classes class skills are 1:1.

Not that hard once you realize this, but its kind of difficult to gleam from the rule book.

Huh. Your once/always rule of thumb is certainly not something I've gotten from the rules previously. Thanks!

(I suspect it's very clearly stated and I just haven't internalized it :smallfrown:)

Frosty
2008-05-14, 03:44 PM
So if you're a Human Factotum and take Able Learner feat, you now have every skill as a class skill forever?

On the topic of Wands, does this mean the Chameleon can use any wand it comes across?

Vortling
2008-05-14, 03:53 PM
So if you're a Human Factotum and take Able Learner feat, you now have every skill as a class skill forever?


Yes. You don't even need to be a Human with Able Learner. Able Learner just makes the skills cost 1 skill point for one rank instead of 2 skill points for 1 rank.



On the topic of Wands, does this mean the Chameleon can use any wand it comes across?

I suspect they can only use wands of the focus they have at the moment. ie, they can't use arcane wands if they have divine focus and vise versa. At least that's how I'd DM it.

Frosty
2008-05-14, 04:08 PM
But you can dual-focus at a certain level...

Saph
2008-05-14, 06:07 PM
Expansion is way better than Potions (except at very low levels, when its duration is too short). It doesn't cost any money; it doesn't require you to keep finding well-stocked potions shops or mages who can brew the potions for you; and its Augmentations are all very nice. (Quicken it without needing the Quicken Power feat; make its duration longer than Enlarge Person's; or another size category of growth!)

Potions aren't actually much of a problem - since they're only 50 gold and weigh nothing, you can stockpile them whenever you find a seller. 50 GP for a buff is a trivial amount once you get past the early levels; a single third-level spell scroll costs fifteen times that much.

Admittedly Expansion is better if you can get it, and the other Psionic Warrior powers are very good, but the problem with a Psywarrior tripper is the huge MAD. You need Strength, Dex, Con, Int, and Wis. Combined with the 3/4 BAB, your attack bonus is going to be several points below a full-BAB class. While I do think Psionic Warriors are nice, I can't see a good way to fit the class into this build. I think you'd be better off going straight Psionic Warrior to maximise your small PP allowance. If you've got any suggestions, they'd be welcome, though.


That's patently ridiculous, but then, the RAW often is. Why not take one level of Wizard and drop all your coin on Wands? UMD is suddenly an unnecessary skill.

Im calling bunk on this one...

Look, I'm all for following the rules as intended and applying common sense in how you interpret them, but I don't think you've got a case here. The rules explicitly go out of their way to say that a Ranger or Paladin can use a wand even before they can cast spells. Hard to misinterpret that.


My internet is kinda hampered at work, so maybe this is a blatantly dumb question, but: how are you getting K:G 8 out of one level? Skills max at 3+(levels with K:G as a class skill)+.5(all other levels); that means that (if I recall class skills correctly) you need five levels of Bard, Ranger, or Wizard before qualifying for HW, or two levels of other classes for each B/R/W you lack. What other rule am I forgetting that's allowing you to do this?

By the way, thanks for posting this! I'm more than a little fascinated by this build.

Lussmanj gave a full answer to this, but the short solution is: take Ranger as your fifth level, gaining 6 skill points for being a Ranger, +1 for being a Human, and +1 for having a 13 Int, and buy 8 ranks of Knowledge (Geography) in one go. Then at level 6 you can move straight into Horizon Walker (though you'll need to have taken the Endurance feat earlier on).

- Saph

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-14, 07:19 PM
A better Core build:

Chains Fall, Everyone Dies
Human Fighter2/PsiWar4/Slayer10/Pyrokeneticist4

Feats: 1st: Track (human bonus), EWP: Spiked Chain (Fighter bonus), Combat Expertise (1st)
2nd: Improved Trip (fighter bonus)
3rd: Power Attack (PsiWar bonus), Improved Bull Rush
4th: Combat Reflexes (PsiWar bonus)
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Dodge
12th: Karmic Strike
15th: Leap Attack
18th: Whatever you like

The Combo:

Expansion to double size (manifester level 14, or 18 if you take Improved Manifester at 18th), then use Psionic Lion's Pounce to make a full attack on a charge, using trips, then smacking with full conversion on Shock Trooper, doing 3X your BAB (+18) = 54 damage on every swing, plus of course, the fact that you're doing something like 4d8+ Str*1.5+2d6 fire on top of it, so you should likely be hitting in the 70's to 100's fairly regularly, per hit. Karmic Strike + Combat Reflexes = everyone fall down go boom when they sneeze near you, since bonuses remain until the beginning of your next turn.

For ultra cheeze, don't bother with a spiked chain, use the Flame Lash to make all attacks touch attacks instead of using Shock Trooper. This saves you two feats, which can be used for other things.

Chains fall, everyone dies, completely Core.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-14, 07:27 PM
Shock trooper isn't core. Neither is Karmic or leap attack. Core, my yellow trimmed pantaloons.

Vortling
2008-05-14, 07:27 PM
But you can dual-focus at a certain level...
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant before that. After you can dual focus you should be able to use both sets of wands. I don't think it would increase the power level of the character all that much since they can cast all those spells anyways. It does make UMD a bit useless though.

Chronos
2008-05-14, 07:38 PM
Shock trooper isn't core. Neither is Karmic or leap attack.For that matter, neither is psionics. There's a reason the SRD has a subsection specifically labeled "core rules".

Meanwhile, if you're going to need Track anyway, you might as well take a level of ranger instead of fighter. Gaining 16 skill points and access to Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot as class skills, plus being able to use a few wands, and a better Reflex save, is worth losing 2 HP. You still don't have a multiclass penalty, either, since ranger and fighter would be balanced, and PsiWar would be treated as your favored class.

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-14, 07:41 PM
Shock trooper isn't core. Neither is Karmic or leap attack. Core, my yellow trimmed pantaloons.

For that matter, despite being in the SRD EPH isn't core either.

Edit: Ninja'd

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-14, 07:44 PM
For that matter, despite being in the SRD EPH isn't core either.

Edit: Ninja'd

Anything in SRD is Core in my book.

Shock Trooper isn't really necessary, as I pointed out, if you use your Flame Lash, you can still afford to trade off your entire BAB, since you're on touch attacks.

Karmic strike is nice, but not necessary, used mostly to pair with shock trooper's abysmal AC. If you, instead, switch it out for Weapon Finesse, then you suddenly have Strength as an almost dump stat, specially if you dip into ToB to get Dex to damage (but that's not Core either).

As it stands, even without Karmic Strike or Shock Trooper, it's still a hell of a lot better build, since it has enormously higher damage potential on every swing.

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-14, 07:45 PM
Anything in SRD is Core in my book.

Shock Trooper isn't really necessary, as I pointed out, if you use your Flame Lash, you can still afford to trade off your entire BAB, since you're on touch attacks.

Karmic strike is nice, but not necessary, used mostly to pair with shock trooper's abysmal AC. If you, instead, switch it out for Weapon Finesse, then you suddenly have Strength as an almost dump stat, specially if you dip into ToB to get Dex to damage (but that's not Core either).

As it stands, even without Karmic Strike or Shock Trooper, it's still a hell of a lot better build, since it has enormously higher damage potential on every swing.

I use EPH myself and treat it as basically core, but the fact remains that it isn't. This build is specifically for games where only the core three rulebooks are allowed, which are reasonably common.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-14, 08:02 PM
I stand by my statement: SRD is Core, and even without Karmic Strike or Shock Trooper, the build is still vastly more powerful than the original one posted.

To be honest, this build would be better done with Fighter2/Wiz5/EK10/whatever. GMW + Enlarge Person without potions + all the stuff a gish can do that this build can't, and still has the number of feats to be able to pull the build off. It's not melee, but it's a hell of a lot more effective. Specially when you can toss out Black Tentacles or Grease at range to make it a true Horizion Tripper. Plus Mirror Image to keep from getting hit in the first place.

Heck, Pal2/Sorc6/EK10/whatever works too, and has the advantage of casting stat to saves, making it harder to take down. At this point, we're really not trying for Batman, just a basic Gish build, so this works just fine if you can't cast 9th level spells.

For a pure melee trip build, though, why bother with Horizion Walker anyways? Just go straight Barbarian20, or if you want some extra feats, Fighter2/Barbarian 18. The only thing HW brings to the table is the ability to dimension door about the place once every four rounds or so. Everything else falls under the heading of 'not worth bothering with an obscure build to get'. For that, you can dip one level of Sorcerer, and Wand it, if you're so obsessed about needing to blink about. And you'd be able to cast Enlarge Person (and probably Shield, since you're using a two handed weapon, for a cheap +4 to AC, or Grease, if you want to trip people at rediculously far distances)

Saph
2008-05-15, 06:54 AM
I stand by my statement: SRD is Core, and even without Karmic Strike or Shock Trooper, the build is still vastly more powerful than the original one posted.

It doesn't seem like you paid too much attention to the reasons the original build is how it is, so I'll go over them again:


People often come to these boards looking for suggestions on how to make a character. Some of the ideas they get are good; however, I've noticed the advice tends to have a few limitations.

• It assumes too high a level. Many D&D games start at level 1 and most never go beyond level 10.
• It assumes too many books. The only material that you can really count on a player having access to is the PHB and (probably) the DMG and MM. Even Core-only can't be assumed - not everyone uses the SRD.
• Too much of the advice boils down to "play a caster". Not everyone wants to play a caster, and at low levels they aren't all that great anyway.

Going through them one at a time:

1. While some of the builds you've listed work okay at lower levels, others don't. A Pal/Sorcerer gish, for instance, is mediocre until level 6 or so, quite apart from the MAD and alignment issues.

2. It's great that you think that everything in the SRD is core, but it's also irrelevant. Not everyone allows psionics, not everyone plays in games where everything in the SRD is okay.

3. Most of your builds just boil down to "play a caster". Again, not everyone wants to play a caster. As for your suggestion to just go Barbarian 20, I'd say this build has better skills, better feats, better saves, more fun abilities, and can do more out of combat. If you want to detail an alternative build, that you think is just as good within the limits I've mentioned, though, go for it.

- Saph

Edit: Heh, just realised the build's getting criticised for being overpowered and exploitative, and for being underpowered and weak, all in the same page. There's something funny about that. :)

Eldariel
2008-05-15, 08:57 AM
Few things:
-Wouldn't you rather take Ranger-level first? Unless you expect extremely tough level 1 encounters, you should be ok, and getting 4x your largest skill list seems really good; with Int 13 Human, you could max Spot, Listen, Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Knowledge (Geography) and still one more skill (Knowledge: Nature, for example or Balance or some other physical skills - 5 ranks in Balance tend to be a must for melee anyways). Of course, Barbarian is better in level 1 combat due to D12 and the ability to go nuts in one combat, but I think Ranger would be better in the long run.
-Wouldn't you want 2 levels of Barbarian there somewhere? Uncanny Dodge is still very good; not being flat-footed or helpless vs. invisibility is all-around awesome.
-Spiked Chain? It's still the Tripping-weapon and threatens both, near and far (else you'd need Armor Spikes, which cannot trip, or Improved Unarmed Strike to threaten 5' - and even if you did threaten nearby, you wouldn't get the Chain-damage).

SamTheCleric
2008-05-15, 09:02 AM
-Spiked Chain? It's still the Tripping-weapon and threatens both, near and far (else you'd need Armor Spikes, which cannot trip, or Improved Unarmed Strike to threaten 5' - and even if you did threaten nearby, you wouldn't get the Chain-damage).


Guisarm + Spiked Gauntlet doesnt take a feat and still let's you trip out at reach. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2008-05-15, 09:14 AM
Guisarm + Spiked Gauntlet doesnt take a feat and still let's you trip out at reach. :smallsmile:

But tripping with Spiked Gauntlet may be harder. Also, hitting someone in the face with one doesn't do as much damage as it should :/ And then it means you've got two weapons to enchant. I guess it's passable until you have a feat to burn though.

AmberVael
2008-05-15, 09:18 AM
I have to say, I really like this build. It doesn't stick to the usual "lol fighter = damage monkey" idea, and gives you some other areas to work with. It also enhances your capabilities both offensively and defensively (Horizon Walker isn't something I would have thought of using- I rarely look at the core PrCs) in a good way.
Really, it just breaks the mold of all the typical builds (See: everything ShneekeyTheLost suggested) and stands well on its own.
Well done.

Saph
2008-05-15, 09:50 AM
Few things:
-Wouldn't you rather take Ranger-level first? Unless you expect extremely tough level 1 encounters, you should be ok, and getting 4x your largest skill list seems really good; with Int 13 Human, you could max Spot, Listen, Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Knowledge (Geography) and still one more skill (Knowledge: Nature, for example or Balance or some other physical skills - 5 ranks in Balance tend to be a must for melee anyways). Of course, Barbarian is better in level 1 combat due to D12 and the ability to go nuts in one combat, but I think Ranger would be better in the long run.

It is better in the long run, yes - you lose a couple of HP, but the extra skill points make up for it once you're at level 3 and up. I'll put a note in the main post.


-Wouldn't you want 2 levels of Barbarian there somewhere? Uncanny Dodge is still very good; not being flat-footed or helpless vs. invisibility is all-around awesome.

It's good, but I'm not sure it's worth giving up a feat (which leaving out the Fighter level or the third Ranger level costs you).


-Spiked Chain? It's still the Tripping-weapon and threatens both, near and far (else you'd need Armor Spikes, which cannot trip, or Improved Unarmed Strike to threaten 5' - and even if you did threaten nearby, you wouldn't get the Chain-damage).

Again, I'm not sure it's worth the feat - in nearly every situation you can just 5-foot step and hit, or Tumble, move, and hit. On the other hand, by level 6 you've got pretty much all the good core melee feats anyway, so there's no real reason not to take it if you want to.

Plus, the spiked chain is kind of silly.


I have to say, I really like this build. It doesn't stick to the usual "lol fighter = damage monkey" idea, and gives you some other areas to work with. It also enhances your capabilities both offensively and defensively (Horizon Walker isn't something I would have thought of using- I rarely look at the core PrCs) in a good way.
Really, it just breaks the mold of all the typical builds (See: everything ShneekeyTheLost suggested) and stands well on its own.
Well done.

Glad you like it!

- Saph

Occasional Sage
2008-05-15, 10:07 AM
*snip*
It's good, but I'm not sure it's worth giving up a feat (which leaving out the Fighter level or the third Ranger level costs you).
*snip*
- Saph

Why not take R1/F2/B2? Ranger gives you all of your skills, Fighter gives you bonus feats that make up for missing Ranger 3, and you still get the Uncanny Dodge of Barbarian 2.

Eldariel
2008-05-15, 10:15 AM
It is better in the long run, yes - you lose a couple of HP, but the extra skill points make up for it once you're at level 3 and up. I'll put a note in the main post.

The net loss after level 2 (provided you take Barb) is 2 HP, which shouldn't be that horrible. On level 1 though, it'll be annoying. Still, you'll have ~10 HP, which should be enough to survive 2 hits from the average weaklings you encounter.


It's good, but I'm not sure it's worth giving up a feat (which leaving out the Fighter level or the third Ranger level costs you).

I was thinking more along the lines of taking it a bit later; Horizon Walker 7 is pretty much the last level of it you need so after that, Barb 2 before going Horizon Walker 10 (it still gives skills so it's handy, and the abilities aren't horrible) seems perfectly doable.


Again, I'm not sure it's worth the feat - in nearly every situation you can just 5-foot step and hit, or Tumble, move, and hit. On the other hand, by level 6 you've got pretty much all the good core melee feats anyway, so there's no real reason not to take it if you want to.

Plus, the spiked chain is kind of silly.

But if someone provokes next to you, having to punch them with a Spiked Gauntlet serves no purpose whatsoever. Also, if you're Enlargened, the area you don't threaten with a trippable weapon would be enlargened to 10', which is already quite relevant. Also, having to 5' step may force you to leave an optimal location threatening multiple foes or some such. Finally, since Spiked Chain handles all the area around you, you can focus solely on enchanting it.

As far as the silliness goes though, I guess there's little helping it except for changing mindset :P


I still give you props for the build though. If I was making a Core Compendium for different optimized Core-builds, this would probably be there (other melee-builds would probably be Fighter 2-4/Barbarian 16-18 and Fighter 2-4/Rogue 16-18 along with some Paladin/Leadership-based Mount-build - of course, casters would get their own category).

Saph
2008-05-15, 10:17 AM
Hmm. R1/F2/B2 compared to B1/F1/R3 gives you the same average HP and the same total skill points. However, you lose a few effective skill points because you have to buy Knowledge (Geography) cross-class. You also give up the (not very useful) Ranger combat style. In exchange you get Uncanny Dodge.

Can't quite decide which is better.

- Saph

SamTheCleric
2008-05-15, 10:36 AM
Yeah, but then you have to spend a Fighter Feat or level feat on Endurance.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-15, 10:37 AM
Hmm. R1/F2/B2 compared to B1/F1/R3 gives you the same average HP and the same total skill points. However, you lose a few effective skill points because you have to buy Knowledge (Geography) cross-class. You also give up the (not very useful) Ranger combat style. In exchange you get Uncanny Dodge.

Can't quite decide which is better.

- Saph

If you take Ranger first, they're class skills rather than cross-class.

Keld Denar
2008-05-15, 11:06 AM
If you take Ranger first, they're class skills rather than cross-class.

Its a class skill with respect to max ranks, but not with respect to purchase rate for the levels of fighter and barbarian. Remember what I posted concerning class skills?

Still, I think Rang1/Barb2/Ftr2/HW is a better build. I posted a HW build about a year and a half ago that went that way. I've always liked the HW. Sure you gotta slog through some crappy abilities to get the gold, but at least you have full BAB and some decent skills to make up for it. Plus, if you start as a dwarf or 1/2orc, you get 120' darkvision, something that not a lot of creatures get, and can be really useful for sniping in dungeons, or even just seeing to the bottom of a deep pit so you can dim door down it.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-15, 11:27 AM
Its a class skill with respect to max ranks, but not with respect to purchase rate for the levels of fighter and barbarian. Remember what I posted concerning class skills?

Still, I think Rang1/Barb2/Ftr2/HW is a better build. I posted a HW build about a year and a half ago that went that way. I've always liked the HW. Sure you gotta slog through some crappy abilities to get the gold, but at least you have full BAB and some decent skills to make up for it. Plus, if you start as a dwarf or 1/2orc, you get 120' darkvision, something that not a lot of creatures get, and can be really useful for sniping in dungeons, or even just seeing to the bottom of a deep pit so you can dim door down it.

Ah, I misunderstood the concern.

Draz74
2008-05-15, 11:38 AM
Potions aren't actually much of a problem - since they're only 50 gold and weigh nothing, you can stockpile them whenever you find a seller. 50 GP for a buff is a trivial amount once you get past the early levels; a single third-level spell scroll costs fifteen times that much.
Yeah, this is only an issue at lower levels (or in a campaign setting like the one I'm currently in, where nobody mass produces any kind of magic item, even potions).

I guess at Levels 1-3 or so, there's no good solution except to have your party arcanist actually cast Enlarge Person. Potions are still too expensive, and Expansion's duration is still too short.


but the problem with a Psywarrior tripper is the huge MAD. You need Strength, Dex, Con, Int, and Wis.
Good point. :smallconfused: I think you can get by, though. With a human and a 28-point buy, for example, you can have Str 14, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8 or so. Con's the only one that's painfully low. So you'll have to be careful not to get hit ... buff up your AC!


Combined with the 3/4 BAB, your attack bonus is going to be several points below a full-BAB class.
Not much. You go into Slayer pretty quick, and only lose 1 or 2 points of BAB. And if that's hurting you, you use your buffs to make it up (Animal Affinity, Offensive Precognition, Metaphysical Weapon). And all of that is if you are still trying to be a tripper build; if you switch to a Natural Weapons build, you can just keep you 3/4 BAB and it doesn't cause much problem.


While I do think Psionic Warriors are nice, I can't see a good way to fit the class into this build. I think you'd be better off going straight Psionic Warrior to maximise your small PP allowance. If you've got any suggestions, they'd be welcome, though.
Whoops, sorry -- you misunderstood me. I wasn't really arguing for adding Psychic Warrior into your Horizon Tripper build. Unfortunately, I don't have any great suggestions how to do that. (If anything, I'd say you can "finish off" your build at high levels by taking War Mind. Though you've still got MAD to deal with.)

No, I was just challenging your assertion that the Horizon Tripper build was the best Core Melee build. And my challenge only stands if psionics are actually allowed. For PHB/DMG/MM only, I'm a big fan of your build as it stands.

My four favorite SRD melee builds:


Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Horizon Walker 7/whatever
Psychic Warrior 20, focusing on Claws of the Beast attacks
Half-Giant Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 4/Slayer 9/Psychic Warrior +5 tripper
Dwarf Rogue X/Fighter 4 with TWF, dwarven waraxe/spiked shield, and Improved Shield Bash

Occasional Sage
2008-05-15, 12:31 PM
One potential issue: the saves are HUGELY imbalanced. F2/B2/R1 gives you an AMAZING fort save, but minimal reflex and NO will save.

Any ideas for fixes, other than Lightening Reflexes and Iron Will?

Eldariel
2008-05-15, 12:46 PM
Those fixes aren't enough. You aren't gonna get a sufficient Will-save no matter how much you try; may as well just try to get a Mind Blank-item ASAP and before that, be an Elf (or maybe a Dwarf) or something. Bottomline is, no amount of boosting is gonna give you a decent chance of saving so might as well try to avoid the entire save. Elves are Sleep-immune and Dwarves get quite a good boost to saves vs. spells, so if you happen to be a Dwarf, it may actually be worth working on.

Occasional Sage
2008-05-15, 12:57 PM
Those fixes aren't enough. You aren't gonna get a sufficient Will-save no matter how much you try; may as well just try to get a Mind Blank-item ASAP and before that, be an Elf (or maybe a Dwarf) or something. Bottomline is, no amount of boosting is gonna give you a decent chance of saving so might as well try to avoid the entire save. Elves are Sleep-immune and Dwarves get quite a good boost to saves vs. spells, so if you happen to be a Dwarf, it may actually be worth working on.

Dwarven... ranger.... Brain 'splody!

Well OK not entirely. Might be a nice solution; I'll run some numbers and see what the loss of a feat and the skill points does.

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-15, 01:24 PM
Dwarven Rangers tend to just be more cave-oriented instead of woodland-oriented.

I'd suggest, since the Ranger 3 build gets it anyway, to go with the Archery Combat style, since most melee classes want to carry a bow as back-up anyway. It gives you a bit of a boost.

TWF, even if you go with Armor Spikes, really doesn't seem like a good way to go, but I think either way you can get some benefit out of the Ranger Combat style if you take it.

Eldariel
2008-05-15, 02:00 PM
Yes, definitely Ranged Style if not allowing any alternate styles (Strong-Arm gets Power Attack); having Rapid Shot makes you equal to a dedicated archer in core except when firing into melee at close range, so when you're not using your melee weapons, you'll substitute perfectly for a straight Archer. As a bonus, maxing Hide with Terrain Masteries et al. isn't hard so you can snipe perfectly well. Of course, you won't probably dedicate a lot of money to your bow, but with few elemental enhancements, you'll be fine even later on.


If Dwarven Ranger rubs you the wrong way, Wood Elf is a fine option. +2 Str, +2 Dex (albeit at the cost of Int and Con) and immunity to Sleep (which is huge early on and the prime Will-save you need to worry) with Favoured Class: Ranger (in other words, you won't be ****ed whether you use FC rules or not), they fit very well. Most importantly, you have a boost to your primary stat.

Saph
2008-05-15, 03:46 PM
Whoops, sorry -- you misunderstood me. I wasn't really arguing for adding Psychic Warrior into your Horizon Tripper build. Unfortunately, I don't have any great suggestions how to do that. (If anything, I'd say you can "finish off" your build at high levels by taking War Mind. Though you've still got MAD to deal with.)

No, I was just challenging your assertion that the Horizon Tripper build was the best Core Melee build. And my challenge only stands if psionics are actually allowed. For PHB/DMG/MM only, I'm a big fan of your build as it stands.

Oh, once you allow everything from the SRD, there are definitely stronger builds out there. Just putting in Knockdown makes any tripper build about twice as powerful. However, a lot of DMs don't allow psionics, which limits the utility of psionic builds. It's a pity in some ways, since the psionic system is pretty well designed, but most people just don't see the point of adding yet another magic system on top of all the casting mechanics D&D has already.

- Saph

rockdeworld
2008-05-30, 05:22 AM
I like this.

Also, I had a thought: I thought I saw a ranger variant somewhere in the thread that eliminated combat style, but couldn't find it a second time. This one is under "other variant classes" in the variant classes section of the srd:


Ranger

A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through the woodlands.

Gain
Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

Lose
Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.
What do you think of that?

Also: What does it take to be a Moon-Warded Ranger (although it's not core)?

Also (again): Can you take the Strong-Arm combat style in core? Then you'd get Power Attack at Ranger 2.

Basically I'm wondering if these are core-applicable options to avoiding a useless class feature.

Saph
2008-05-30, 06:26 AM
I like this.

Also, I had a thought: I thought I saw a ranger variant somewhere in the thread that eliminated combat style, but couldn't find it a second time. This one is under "other variant classes" in the variant classes section of the srd:


What do you think of that?

The Wild Shape Ranger is nice, but remember that you get UA variant class features at the same level as the class you take them from. So you don't get Wild Shape until Ranger level 5, which makes it less useful for this build.

Haven't heard of the Strong-Arm combat style.

- Saph

Eldariel
2008-05-30, 06:44 AM
Strong-Arm is in a Dragon, which number I can't remember. It's got a host of different Ranger-styles, but the only really relevant one is Strong-Arm as it gives Power Attack, a feat just about everyone wants anyways.

Aquillion
2008-05-30, 07:14 AM
For the combat style, I'd go archery, definitely. You already have better options for melee combat, so you don't have any use for TWF at all... but Rapid Shot at least expands your options a little bit, even if you're never going to be a great archer. It gives you a slightly better option if you're forced to fight something flying and can't fly yourself, say, or if you don't want to close range for whatever reason.

Plus, you can play 'blink to a safe vantage point, snipe with arrows' if you want. There aren't likely to be very many opponents who will succumb to that by 11th level, but who knows? In any case, it's more than you get out of TWF (which is nothing at all.)

zigged
2010-04-21, 04:56 AM
What's wrong with Human Ranger3/Barb2 (not necessarily in that order)
Take combat expertise and improved trip at 1
combat reflexes at 3
still get endurance
power attack at 6

you lose die hard but in exchange you get 2 more skill points, listen at every level, an extra hp and uncanny dodge.

It's not much but I cant stand the fighters 2 skill points/lv

Keld Denar
2010-04-21, 05:14 AM
Please read the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) and follow proper ettiquette when referencing long dead threads.

Good form would be to create a new thread, link the old thread, and possibly quote any relevant parts in the body of your thread. Thread Necromancy is kinda a no-no around here, and Roland will be along shortly to lock this.

Welcome to the playground!

Escheton
2010-04-21, 05:17 AM
besides the basic "be huge, trip the moon" sorta thing

how do these builds get a decent trip check in small rooms?

Saph
2010-04-21, 05:25 AM
While I appreciate the attention, please don't repost to threads as old as these: it's thread necromancy. Follow Keld's suggestions instead.

Please don't post further in this thread, and hopefully the thread won't be locked. :smallsmile:

Roland St. Jude
2010-04-21, 08:17 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread necromancy. Locked.