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Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 05:40 PM
To make it worse, almost certainly all four players are new as well.

Anyway, I'm looking for both general and specific advice. I've read the "So You Wanna be a DM?" thread already. It's a good read, and it's useful too.

Books I'm using:

PHB, DMG, MM (to be obtained), Draconomicon (sp?, hopefully). The last is simply because I love dragons.

My budget is shoestring. I'll be improvising battle mats, markers, and the like, and buying more books is not an option for me at the moment.

I'm playing under 3.5.

Expected Party: Bard, Paladin, Druid, probably Cleric or Ranger.

My questions are as follows:

1. My intended final enemy in my first campaign is a lich. He's genre savvy and has dealt with and defeated adventurers before. He knows how they operate, and has the souls of several defeated adventurers on call. When he recognizes that the PCs are a threat to him, he'll be sending four out to fight the party. One's a knight (read: Fighter with a preference for mounted combat). The others are yet to be decided. My problem is how do I handle them. They're not your usual zombie or skeleton. They're more like thralls. At the moment, using elements of the lich template seems to be the best. Are there any other solutions? Answered: Change type to undead, change applicable stats, and give bonuses to resisting turning and being controlled. Still open if anyone cares to add anything.

2. Character creation: Choosing a method to determine stats is causing me great frustration. Rolling dice is annoying, so a point buy system is in order. However, choosing one is proving difficult. I want the characters to be moderately powerful, but not gods.Answered: 28 or higher point buy.

3. How would you go about creating a story for the PCs without them feeling like they're being railroaded? I'd personally prefer to let them choose their actions based on the information that I give them, but what do you think?

4.As far as world building goes, that's not going to be too big a problem for me. However, I'd like to shake up and rearrange the stereotypes among the races. The basic background for the world is that after a civilization reaches a certain level, they tend to destroy themselves in one cataclysmic way or another. The world is currently on the upswing of a new empire, who I've decided are the elves. Humans are the remnants of the previous empire. They're nomads now, but still retain a proud martial tradition. In other words, while they aren't toyed with, neither are they dominant. Dwarves I really can't see as other than the usual stereotype. The other races could be problematic. The savage races could simply be the remnants of the oldest civilization who have forgotten that past. Hmm...under this, orcs might genuinely have a claim to the whole world. :smallwink:

Dragons are a mystery to the other races, but none care to inquire too closely, for "they are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.":smallbiggrin:

5. Balance among the party could be tricky. Wizards, I know what they can do, but I haven't studied the other classes to that degree. I'm banning Natural Spell to prevent certain Druid abuses. What other problems do I need to be aware of?

EDIT:

6. Just out of curiosity, but can a level 20 party handle a great wyrm red dragon without special preparation. If they can't, what would they need? Core rules only, please.Answered: in general, no. Specifically, they could do it, but would be going through hell to do so. I still think that they would die.

7. Again on world building, I'm planning that the world be relatively low magic and level in general. Magic shops as such don't exist. Given the the nature of the world however, magic items of one variety or another can be found wherever you look. It's unlikely that it'll be something useful, however. I plan to reserve the serious stuff for loot. High level characters are something special, an 11th level Cleric would be the head of the Church, for example. Advice on how to run this?

8. I'm also considering starting the characters off at level 3. Thoughts? Advice?Answered: Great idea. Thanks.

9. Naming is something I have difficulty with. Suggestions?

If I think of any more questions, I'll post them.

More general advice is also appreciated.

Thanks for your time.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-13, 06:16 PM
Level 3 is a great starting point. You probably won't run into balance issues with that party for new players and no Natural Spell, although I recommend pointing him at the Shapeshift Druid from PHB II. I recommend 32 pt-buy, as the party won't be as powerful as expected with new players. Give the players options, but make it so they either are guarenteed to choose the one you want or either option leads to the same result. Then figure out 10 minutes in your players are crazy and just go with the flow. First session will be an experience. Don't mess with WBL. Tell the players essentially "There are powerful magics in the world, but 90% of the population never sees them". Then they can find magic items and feel awesome compared to the commoners, even though the amount of gear is what they should be getting, WBL is the only sembelance of balance 3.x has.
As for the Dragon, a normal party probably wouldn't be able to unprepared, they're CR 26. Noobs would be dead. It casts as a 19th level sorcerer, and is a DRAGON. A prepared party could gank it in the surprise round, but that's only if they are prepared for it. I'd suggest just making an Ancient or Wyrm their opponent, at least then they'd have a chance.

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 06:23 PM
As I stated before, my budget is shoestring and I'm not going to be getting any books other than those I've mentioned for a while. I can't simply get a PHB II. SRD stuff, I can work with. Is shapeshift Druid or an equivalent there?

EDIT: A brief note on my players: the Bard and Paladin are definately new. The Cleric/Ranger knows how to play RPGs. The Druid may know more than the rest, as they knew that they wanted to play a Druid right off.

The Dragon question is just for my curiosity. If I'm convinced that it may be possible, I might do it in another campaign.

Grommen
2008-05-13, 07:30 PM
I use the 28 point buy for Tougher Campaigns. No one seems to complain that their stats suck. We do some pretty odd non power gamer characters by the way. If your planning on a long campaign keep in mind that they can raise their scores every 4 levels, and the most prevalent items in the game seem to be items that raise stats. So good stats never seem to be an issue to me.

If you can swing it 3rd level is a good starting point. Pretty much anything done at 1st level is baby stuff cause you'll simply kill them with a cheep crit, or hell a band of Orks wandering around :) Just be prepared to spend the first few nights working out balance issues.

The core books don't really over balance anything (Ok my opinion only here no need to flame my butt...That's my story and I'm sticking to it.) The balance issues that are discussed here (again opinion here) stem from people trying to brake the system. Of coarse their are some accidental things that will creep up. You just have to decide how to deal with it. Your word is law remember. If they want to change it, then they can get their own damm campaign.

Fighters are pretty middle of the road as far as power. I like them because they are versital. No fighter ever comes out the same as the next. Someone playing for the first time as a wizzie or cleric most likely will not stumble across the good spells at first, but watch out when they do find something by accident, cause their are some whoppers out their! (Tensors Transformation, Shape Change, Divine Might, etc.)

Watch out for sneak attacking rogues (the bane of my combat right now). I have to be very heavy handed on people sneaking up on people or flanking cause one cheep hit and the Bad Guys die all too quickly.

I don't really like Druids, but that is just me. They are one dimensional. I don't like the low level spells, and the healing is weak for some time. However they can shape change into a big ol' bear and knock heads around. Taking a bear as your pet is like havening another fighter in the party for free as well. Once buffed with some barkskin and Bull's Strength. Whooa momma!

Watch your CR at that low of a level too, some of the critters are badly balanced. Mostly to powerful by the way. What crack smoken' writer decided that an orc was a 1/2 CR when he as and 18 strength and a two-handed weapon I'll never know. Hopefully he got fired for that one, or better yet forced to DM ork campaigns for the rest of his life.

And as far as books go. Their is a lot of out of print stuff. The 3 core books are good for a long, long time too. The internet is a good way to track down some books cheep. Shoot me a PM if we can do that on this board and I'll explain it.

Just have fun. Tell a good fish tail about the one that didn't get away and how you nearly died in the process, and still saved the day. Nothing too it other than that.

drengnikrafe
2008-05-13, 07:40 PM
One thing I can suggest in the way of Dragons: No. Just no.
There's a reason that dragons have an entire book just for them, and this is because dragons are incredibly complex creatures. You don't just "put a dragon in there because you want one", you carefully impliment a dragon based upon time warrented experience.... or just to scare the bujebus out of your players. Dragons can be fun, but they're really hard to work with.

I always start with level 1, but that's because most of my campaigns are playtesting new houserules, so we need to see the house rule at full spectrum. Level 3 is not at all a bad spot to start.

Good luck

monty
2008-05-13, 07:44 PM
Level 3? If you're mean, send that damn crab against them. It's CR 3...technically.

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 07:55 PM
I take it you mean the rust monster? If so, I have more sense than to do that. It always struck me as a bad idea.

As for my dragon question, It is theoretical. I am not sending it against anyone in any actual campaign. I merely want to know whether or not it is possible.

As for Shapeshifting, sweet stars, that's a badly designed spell if there ever was one. I mean, supernatural abilities? What the heck were they smoking when they dreamed that one up? Polymorphing in general I'd require familiarity or beat a DC 20+HD Knowledge (as appropriate) to use the form. Other spells, I'd just be careful with.

Thanks for answering my questions by the way.

So far,

1. I still need an answer.
2. 28 or higher point buy seems to be reasonable.
3. I'd still like an answer.
4. No one even touched this.
5. I'm not sure I have enough information yet.
6. In general, no, not a good idea. What about specifically?
7.I still need more for this one too.
8. Seems to be a good idea, I'll go with it.

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 08:01 PM
1. My intended final enemy in my first campaign is a lich. He's genre savvy and has dealt with and defeated adventurers before. He knows how they operate, and has the souls of several defeated adventurers on call. When he recognizes that the PCs are a threat to him, he'll be sending four out to fight the party. One's a knight (read: Fighter with a preference for mounted combat). The others are yet to be decided. My problem is how do I handle them. They're not your usual zombie or skeleton. They're more like thralls. At the moment, using elements of the lich template seems to be the best. Are there any other solutions?
Vampires can Dominate, you should at least concider that. Otherwise, just play them how you want them, even if there's no actual spell that produces that type of control.


2. Character creation: Choosing a method to determine stats is causing me great frustration. Rolling dice is annoying, so a point buy system is in order. However, choosing one is proving difficult. I want the characters to be moderately powerful, but not gods.
What I personally use as default is "4d6 drop 1 reroll 1s, or 32 point buy" and let the players choose their style. Rolling produces better stats on average, which is good for generalists, but point buy allows them to guarantee they'll get a high value for their most important attribute, which is good for specialists (like spellcasters). Having both options available to the players is rarely a bad thing.


3. How would you go about creating a story for the PCs without them feeling like they're being railroaded? I'd personally prefer to let them choose their actions based on the information that I give them, but what do you think?
My approach is to leave things relatively blank, and expand as necessary. After each session, talk to your players and see what they think about plot direction and take suggestions! For example, my current campaign has a metaplot about this villan seeking ultimate power, but right now the players are really eager to take on the hobgoblin army... which wasn't origionally part of the plot, but I'll be tailoring the next couple sessions in that direction and let them lay the smackdown on a bunch of hobbies. This distracts from my metaplot somewhat, but not critically, and should be good fun in the mean time.


4.As far as world building goes, that's not going to be too big a problem for me. However, I'd like to shake up and rearrange the stereotypes among the races. The basic background for the world is that after a civilization reaches a certain level, they tend to destroy themselves in one cataclysmic way or another. The world is currently on the upswing of a new empire, who I've decided are the elves. Humans are the remnants of the previous empire. They're nomads now, but still retain a proud martial tradition. In other words, while they aren't toyed with, neither are they dominant. Dwarves I really can't see as other than the usual stereotype. The other races could be problematic. The savage races could simply be the remnants of the oldest civilization who have forgotten that past. Hmm...under this, orcs might genuinely have a claim to the whole world. :smallwink:

Dragons are a mystery to the other races, but none care to inquire too closely, for "they are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.":smallbiggrin:
Interesting idea! Just make sure all the players know the changes before they build their character. And don't deviate too much, or it'll be hard for them to make that mental jump.


5. Balance among the party could be tricky. Wizards, I know what they can do, but I haven't studied the other classes to that degree. I'm banning Natural Spell to prevent certain Druid abuses. What other problems do I need to be aware of?
There's dozens of potential problems, but it very much depends on the players. Clerics can make stupidly-good melee characters if they buff themself, but the party will hate them for it. Fighters really stink unless you're desperate for feats, and work best as a dip class. Bards need to focus on something or they'll be uniformly poor at everything - except lying, they're the best in the game at lying their butts off. Paladins... tread with care. They cause more interparty conflict than any other class, so make sure he's not playing Lawful Stupid (as opposed to a Rogue playing Chaotic Dumbass). Soften up the Paladin's vows if at all possible, and I'd highly recommend striking that "Associates" section entirely.


6. Just out of curiosity, but can a level 20 party handle a great wyrm red dragon without special preparation. If they can't, what would they need? Core rules only, please.
Depends on the party. Many would argue that a single twinked-out Wizard could manage it in theory, but practice rarely works out so well. My general experience is that, if the PCs are collected and organized and determined, they can take on most reasonable threats well... but the moment they loose cohesion and get disorganized, they fall apart and die like flies. A well-played (ie crafty) great wyrm could probably slaughter them, but if the fight is basic and straightforward then they could probably manage alright.


7. Again on world building, I'm planning that the world be relatively low magic and level in general. Magic shops as such don't exist. Given the the nature of the world however, magic items of one variety or another can be found wherever you look. It's unlikely that it'll be something useful, however. I plan to reserve the serious stuff for loot. High level characters are something special, an 11th level Cleric would be the head of the Church, for example. Advice on how to run this?
No advice. Sounds pretty solid; there's a bit movement that claims that real-world people are only ever really lvl1-6 equivalent. By the time players hit double digits, they should be nigh-legendary.


8. I'm also considering starting the characters off at level 3. Thoughts? Advice?
DOUBLEPLUSGOOD IDEA! Level 1 characters are all but useless; martial types can't hit worth diddly, spellcasters barely have any spells, and skillmonkey types can still be beaten reliably in their specialty by the dumb fighter who rolls well. Level 3 is the minimum I'd ever run any game.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-13, 08:04 PM
The core books don't really over balance anything (Ok my opinion only here no need to flame my butt...That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)Cleric. Compare it to a Monk. Yeah.
The balance issues that are discussed here (again opinion here) stem from people trying to brake the system.A Druid, who takes a Leopard Companion because "she likes cats" and Natural Spell because, well, what else is there, can't help but be better in melee than a Fighter. At every level. Include buffing, and the Ubercharger just became her toy.
Fighters are pretty middle of the road as far as power.NJo, they're the bottom, just below the Adept and maybe Expert.
I like them because they are versital.Picking what you want to be able to do at level up isn't versatility, no matter how manyoptions you have. Especially if the ones that look best are traps. (Wep Focus)
Someone playing for the first time as a wizzie or cleric most likely will not stumble across the good spells at first, but watch out when they do find something by accident, cause their are some whoppers out their!Why I say CORE ISN'T BALANCED! AT ALL! If someone can "accidentally" find a spell that renders 3 classes obsolete, then balance is a lost cause.
Watch out for sneak attacking rogues (the bane of my combat right now). I have to be very heavy handed on people sneaking up on people or flanking cause one cheep hit and the Bad Guys die all too quickly.Which is why you simply make those situations hard(not impossible) for the Rogue to get by using tactics. SA is supposed to require work, and if flanking is how your Rouge gets it, you're not making him work.
And as far as books go. Their is a lot of out of print stuff. The 3 core books are good for a long, long time too. The internet is a good way to track down some books cheep. Shoot me a PM if we can do that on this board and I'll explain it.Second this, check Amazon for some killer deals.
Just have fun. Tell a good fish tail about the one that didn't get away and how you nearly died in the process, and still saved the day. Nothing too it other than that.Truth.

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 08:11 PM
@Sonofzeal: Thanks for the character advice. I'm aware of the Paladin's code, but given the nature of the adventure I'm planning to run, I don't think that it will be too much of a problem.

EDIT: Actually, I'm considering shifting the Paladin's alignment requirement to Neutral Good, on the grounds that it suits their role as champions of good and justice better. By the way, justice is not necessarily law, so keep that in mind.

@all: I'm updating my first post with red type to indicate questions that I've received satisfactory answers to. Keep an eye on that.

EDIT2: My question on the lich's thralls is not one of spell mechanics. It is of character and combat mechanics. I can't treat them as zombies or skeletons, and I'm hesitant about using the lich template. I'm wondering if there's a better solution.

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 08:24 PM
@Sonofzeal: Thanks for the character advice. I'm aware of the Paladin's code, but given the nature of the adventure I'm planning to run, I don't think that it will be too much of a problem.
Even if they're fighting unequivocable evil, it can still cause problems the first time the Bard wants to lie his way through the city gates, or the Druid wants to assassinate someone. My rule of thumb is to require all other players give their consent before a Paladin or otherwise Exalted character enters play. If everyone's fine with going in that direction, then great!

As to books... PHB2 is invaluable, and if your game goes past lvl10 then you'll probably need Tome of Battle to help even out the massive discrepancy between martial and spellcasting characters. Dungeonscape is also good. There's plenty of ways of getting those without paying full retail price though; I got most of mine through discount or second-hand bookstores, and I'll admit to getting others off bittorrent as well. Ebay and Amazon are your friends though.

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 08:26 PM
One more time, I can't get any books beyond what I have mentioned because I don't have the resources to do so. Maybe later.

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 08:27 PM
EDIT2: My question on the lich's thralls is not one of spell mechanics. It is of character and combat mechanics. I can't treat them as zombies or skeletons, and I'm hesitant about using the lich template. I'm wondering if there's a better solution.
Ah, misunderstood. Well, they could just be Dominated humans, I don't see a problem with that. Vampire Spawn
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireSpawn) also work, as that makes them intelligent but still under the creator's firm control.

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 08:29 PM
Vampire spawn are not compatible with the concept, nor are dominated humans.

These souls the lich is sending are corporeal undead, but they retain all of their knowledge and abilities, with the caveat that they are bound to the lich's will.

drengnikrafe
2008-05-13, 08:33 PM
[QUOTE=Nemoricus;4318709]3. How would you go about creating a story for the PCs without them feeling like they're being railroaded? I'd personally prefer to let them choose their actions based on the information that I give them, but what do you think?
[QUOTE]

Let me take a stab at this one.
You give them options. The key to not make it feel like a railroad lies in a few key elements.

First: Never force them to do anything. If they don't want to travel though the forest, by all means, don't make them.

Second: Don't have random NPCs make all their suggestions. Sometimes, you have to let them wander into a key story element.

Third: It never hurts to set up pivitol points rather then a story. Mind you, these points should not be definitively based upon a place. Let the PCs go where they want to go, and thow events at them that give them an option as to how to handle them, how to come out of them, and where to go from there while you set up who it's against, and make a personality for that NPC.

If someone would like to contradict me, or expand upon what I say... go for it. I've got as much to learn as anyone else, I just figured I should put my 2 cp in on this one, since I think I know a thing or two.

monty
2008-05-13, 08:34 PM
1. If you want simple undead enemies, just give them the Necropolitan template. I know you don't have Libris Mortis, but there really isn't that much to it unless you're adding it to a PC. Just give them standard undead immunities, +2 to turning, and +2 to will saves against Control Undead, and that's all you really need.

2. I suggest 32-point buy for new players. Enough to max their main stat with a decent number of points left, so it's easy for someone who doesn't have experience with optimization.

3. Jut let the plot carry itself. Unless you're playing an established setting, you can mostly let the players' actions create it for you. Just don't let them go too far, and if you have a large plan, like a "final boss" BBEG or whatever, try to nudge them toward that goal as the campaign progresses.

4. Breaking stereotypes always makes for more interesting roleplaying, and if you're up to the challenge, suggest that the players play as "monster" races trying to fit in to the "civilized" world. Personally, my favorite game so far was playing a neutral good goblin. If this is too hard for you as a new DM, you can still suggest that they go against the usual stereotypes with the PHB races.

5. Balance is pretty much impossible. The main issue is casters vs. non-casters; try to send encounters or situations where other classes shine, like a door warded against magic that can only be opened by picking the lock or a BBEG with lots of mooks that the figher can cleave apart while the casters try to take down the leader with their win buttons.

6. Probably not. Dragons in general are difficult if you don't have a lot of experience fighting them (for example, not knowing their casting abilities or not knowing what they're immune to), so stick to CR-appropriate encounters.

7. If they're getting standard WBL and can get the items they need without shops, you should be fine. Having 11th level characters considered powerful isn't unreasonable, since most common NPCs have just a couple of HD.

8. 3 is a good level for new players, since it gives them a chance to get a feel for their characters before they get to the higher levels.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-13, 08:35 PM
1. My intended final enemy in my first campaign is a lich. He's genre savvy and has dealt with and defeated adventurers before. He knows how they operate, and has the souls of several defeated adventurers on call. When he recognizes that the PCs are a threat to him, he'll be sending four out to fight the party. One's a knight (read: Fighter with a preference for mounted combat). The others are yet to be decided. My problem is how do I handle them. They're not your usual zombie or skeleton. They're more like thralls. At the moment, using elements of the lich template seems to be the best. Are there any other solutions?Dominated is your best bet. There's a few other similar spells that will work, too, and having the enemies non-evil should mess with the Paladin(but NOT make him fall. He should never fall unless he's an idiot or wants to.)
3. How would you go about creating a story for the PCs without them feeling like they're being railroaded? I'd personally prefer to let them choose their actions based on the information that I give them, but what do you think? I recommend giving them options, but no real choices. Picture a road that branches 50 times, but still crosses at the same bridge and ends at the same city.

Or you can be crazy like me and try to create an entire world that reacts and progresses no matter what the players do. I don't recommend that unless you're a masochist.
5. Balance among the party could be tricky. Wizards, I know what they can do, but I haven't studied the other classes to that degree. I'm banning Natural Spell to prevent certain Druid abuses. What other problems do I need to be aware of?Diplomacy, and all other spells. The Druid may load up on a bunch of Hour/level buffs for him and his pet, and still outclass a fighter, only now instead of a lightning-spitting Dire Bear, he's an Enlarged, Barkskinned Dire Bear with an Enlarged, Barkskinned Wolf flanking for him. The CR system is borked, and there's no way of fixing that that I know.
6. Just out of curiosity, but can a level 20 party handle a great wyrm red dragon without special preparation. If they can't, what would they need? Core rules only, please.Answered, partially: in general, no. I'd still like to know how one would handle it specifically.A prepared, semi-optimized Wizard would cast Superior Invisibility on the Rogue(or himself), walk up, and Irresistable Dance the thing. An unprepared party is forced to spam Save-or-Lose until they get lucky or the Wizard can get them cloes enough together to ecape.
7. Again on world building, I'm planning that the world be relatively low magic and level in general. Magic shops as such don't exist. Given the the nature of the world however, magic items of one variety or another can be found wherever you look. It's unlikely that it'll be something useful, however. I plan to reserve the serious stuff for loot. High level characters are something special, an 11th level Cleric would be the head of the Church, for example. Advice on how to run this?Again, keep WBL the same, just make it so few of the NPCs have magic items or spellcaster levels. Those that do generally use them for nefarious purposes, because otherwise they're not cost-efficient. The party will be fighting a lot of these types.

Look at my first post, it answers a lot of these questions.

quiet1mi
2008-05-13, 08:40 PM
if you really want the lich and start at the low level of 1-3 then expect the players to not see that lich for quite a long time.

oh, don't forget to drop the name of the lich out there so the players stay within the rail roads guidelines of the campaign... believe me there is nothing like having the players going after the wrong person because you forgot to present more clues to who the serial killer was,earlier...

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 08:44 PM
1. Alright, Necropolitan seems to work, but I'm still open to suggestions.
2. Closed. I get the point.
3. Sounds like good advice from both of you. I was planning on something like it anyway.
4. I was referring to stereotypes in the cliched elves, dwarves, human, etc. Tolkein-esque way.
5. Hmm...I could use more specific advice.
6. Rather than Wizard cheese, I want to know how a prepared party, prepared long in advance, working together would handle it.
7. Sounds reasonable, but I'm still listening.
8. Ditto 2, I get the point. Closed.

@quiet1mi: I'm debating whether or not they start off knowing of the lich, but have to root it out. That may give them enough time to level sufficiently, and in any case I'm not stating that lich until they're close enough to fight it.

Speaking of names, thanks for reminding me. Names are something I have grave difficulty with. Suggestions?

drengnikrafe
2008-05-13, 08:56 PM
7. High level characters are something special, an 11th level Cleric would be the head of the Church, for example. Advice on how to run this?


I want to help with this part too.
Higher level bards will be Troubadours (sp?)
You have the right idea for clerics, and paladins probably work there too
Higher level druids and rangers should be hermits or sages of some sort
Monks should be martial arts trainers, or one of those guys who sits around all day focusing on something
Rogues would be infamous thieves, of course
Fighters and Barbarians head up armies or merc guilds
Sorcerers and Wizards... will hardly exist. Problem solved!

Your BBEG should be something close to whatever your high level characters are going to be.
Just an additional 2 cp from me on this. Sorry if it's not helpful.

monty
2008-05-13, 09:00 PM
Speaking of names, thanks for reminding me. Names are something I have grave difficulty with. Suggestions?

Can't help you there. I'm just as bad.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-13, 09:02 PM
1. Alright, Necropolitan seems to work, but I'm still open to suggestions. Core-only, there really are no other suggestions. Core has no options for cool stuff mechanically.
5. Hmm...I could use more specific advice.The problem is, there is so much that is broken in D&D. Many spells, most of the skill system, the Druid class, the Fighter template, weak feats, overpowered feats, trap feats, the LA/HD monster PC system, underpowered templates, the CR system, and some of the underlying mechanics that are impossible to ignore or houserule. There's a reason I only play it when I can't get a group together for anything else.
6. Rather than Wizard cheese, I want to know how a prepared party, prepared long in advance, working together would handle it.Sic the Wiard on it. It's 6 above their CR, spells are their only option. I can probably beat it with any full-caster class, but any strategy is essentially going to come down to save-or-lose. It's HP is too high for any damage to take it out, and it would eat any meleer who tried.
Speaking of names, thanks for reminding me. Names are something I have grave difficulty with. Suggestions?Depends on your group. Remember, apostrophes are not a universal stand-in for vowels (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=16). I like to translate something to a language I associate with the character/race, then adjust it till it sounds cool. But maake sure, whatever it is, you don't have it start with the same letter as something else (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1140).

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 09:06 PM
Sorcerers and Wizards are two character types I'd like some more specific advice on in dealing with a relatively low magic world. Druids and Clerics are easy. They're around, but few are powerful enough to matter to the PCs.

Sorcerers and Wizards are another matter. Wizards I can see as being secluded. They train apprentices in relative secrecy to guard their knowledge. Sorcerers could simply be rare enough to begin with.

EDIT: Don't worry about my over using apostrophes. I think that I've only had one in a name I've created, and there was some reason for it, but I can't remember either.

I realize that the Core rules lack rules for my thrall concept, which is why I'm asking. A homebrew would work just fine for me.

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 09:10 PM
6. Rather than Wizard cheese, I want to know how a prepared party, prepared long in advance, working together would handle it.
The problem is, dragons have so many potential playstyles that it's darn near impossible to predict that sort of thing. A Great Wyrm casts spells like a 19th level Wizard, has a host of inherant defences, and a vast array of combat options. If you play it as a slugger, merely relying on its natural attacks, then a dedicated 20th level SRD-only party could probably beat it at that game with some time and effort and the right gear (invulnerability to fire and dragonbane weapons will help. Even then, it's a CR 26 encounter, and dragons are always deadly for their CR, so I'd say your average non-twinking party would lose, and badly.

If they WERE going to take it down.... hmmmm..... well, a TWF Rogue with a ring of Greater Invisibility could do some serious damage, as could anybody with good Ray spells. Dexterity Damage is very tempting, but there's not many ways to do it beyond hoping the thing flubs a Fort save. Still, in theory a single dose of Terinav root (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison) could take it out. And spells to cause Blindness/Paralysis/whatnot are still as tempting as ever, if you can get the DCs high enough. A properly cunning dragon is nigh-invulnerable though, especially when it's 6 CR points above you.


Speaking of names, thanks for reminding me. Names are something I have grave difficulty with. Suggestions?
Ehehe.... my approach is mostly to make a bad pun or obscure reference, and make sure it's not too obvious. I made a lockdown build and called him Lockhart; my rockstar elf was "Nero" (who did play a fiddle, after all); my Dwarven Crusader was named Durin for a character from Norse Mythology. For locations, I mostly steal from whatever computer game I've been playing recently, assuming none of the players have seen it. In general, I try to free-associate from the concept of the character/place/whatever I need to name, and hope to land on something that I can pronounce and isn't immediately recognizable from the initial concept.

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 09:24 PM
I believe it casts as a Sorcerer, but I get the point. A given 20th-level party is not taking on Great Wyrm Red Dragons. A prepared one is going to go through hell to do it. Even then, I still suspect that the Great Wyrm would get them in the end.

As for names, I like unique and fantastic sounding names. I'm also fairly ignorant of popular culture (by my own volition, mind), so I'd not have that kind of reference.

Kol Korran
2008-05-14, 04:11 AM
hhmmmm... i'll try to answer as best i can, to the extent of my experience. now let's see:

1) let the Thralls be ghosts, with the malevolance ability (they take over a body, dominating it). a few ideas for this:

Ghosts can rejuvinate and return after being destroyed... they can comeback and face the party several times, as excellent recuring villains. by inhabiting and controling various creatures and people (including perhaps freidns of the party? could make for a nice twist), you can keep them from being too repetitive.
the lich controls them by some past atrocity they have unwittingly commited, which weighs on their soul, and keeps them in this world. (got no game mechanincs for that, but you can cook something up, depending on the campaign. a ghost of a cleric who betrayed his religion is held by the lich, who holds the last survivors of theat religion alive... as long as the ghost obeys). as they re encounter the group, they realise their potential, and start to give them clues, mostly to ways to release their tortured souls. this could lead to unique adventures, on the lich's domain (or not), setting the spirits free while trying to avoid the BBEG... (or disposing of powerfull minion)
if you want a mroe direct approach, have the ghosts dominate their former life skeletons. (for fluff have the skeleton glow, and ghostly tendrils nd such float around it). the chracters may think they are fighting but an upgraded skeleton versions, but once these are destroyed, the ghosts apper, utterly unharmed... this could work as either a one shot encounter with the ghostly team, or as one of the final attempts against the party.
as a nasty turn of evenets to the above encounter, have one or two fo the ghosts tied to their magical items, rejuvinating from it when it returns to the world. several days after destroying the ghosts, one (or more) of them suddenly reappears, trying to take control of a character! this could rattle the players, especially if they think this is all behind them, and if they are in somewhere generally safe (their base of operations?) or at a time of relaxation (going to sleep?). this could happen again, and again, and so the characters face a tough choice- keep the itme or not? ifthe ghost is somehow released from this world (as suggested above), the item can then becoem intelligent (the remains of the ghost's real life personality), with special abilities and powers based on the ghost in question (and perhaps a special purpose of destroyign the lich).


3) most people have allready detailed on this, but a few more suggestions:

don't create a "story"... that immediatly compels you to follow it, an all too common self trap for DMs. instead, devise some general goals, and some minor ones. try to tie these as much as possible with the player's backgrounds and motives. then, let the players decide how to achieve that goal. for a realy simple example: you want the players to save some NPCs from a fort. give the prisoners some over all importence, and have 1-2 of them importent to the PCS. next- DO NOT detail the fort, it's every room and occupants. instead- list a general roster of the forces, their activities, 2-3 possible encounter groups (patrol, elite squade, animal handlers), list the place's features (mainly for the rogue and other more inginious characters), decide on the social structure, and personalities of key characters (for the talkers), and so on. this way, the characters deal with a situation, not a dungeon (which almost by definition railroads). now, apply these principals to the adventure, and campaign in general.
if i haven't strengthened this enough- motives, motives, motives.
implications, for good and bad: though the characters may take any rod they choose, that doesn't mean their decisions are all care free. if someonme telss them "the monter is soon to arrive! it will kill us all!" and the party wanders soemwhere else, (they are'nt railroaed after all!), then have the monster kill everyone. my point here is this: the PC's actions should influence the world. the effect should be significant, but not campaign breakingly disasterous or victorious (until the end of course, if you don't keep the world). play the world, not yourself reacting to the characters. oh, and for monumental influences, give a fair warning.


4) (large sigh) i see you're going with the race=culture theme, that so many DM's do... your choice, but i would suggest expanding beyond that. having several elven nations, or (who would have thought!) a culture with several species in it, would grant your world greater depth. sure, a race is an importent influence on a character, but not the only one.
i know you can't buy any books, but if you can, try to read a bit about Eberron- they broken most racial stereotypes, include several cultural aspects to each race, and have done so convincingly well. think of cultures, politics, organizations, religions, and more...

6) it's too much of a hypothetical question. at that level the charaacters, (and dragon), should have far more resources than their stats and magical items would indicate. also, different DMs, and different players will achieve differetn results, depending on how they play their part.

7) a few ideas on this low magic, and low general power campaign:

allow some source of simple magical items to be bought. i mean mostly low level scrolls, potions, and wonderous items. these usually help as good buffs and aids to versatility.
your wizards might be a bit stumped for spells at higher levels, unless you throw some scrolls/ wizard books at them, or allow them plenty of time to research "known" spells.
though you consider 11th level characters as realy powerfull, this forces you to deal with two issues with your players: the first- players who go out of control, thinking they should be king. prepare in advacne some way to counter them, or better yet- discuss this with your players before hand. second- what if a player decides to build his own fortress, inspire a new religion and so on? might be fun to play, but also will take him/her away from adventuring, and will grant them more resources then generall yaccepted (especially if you compare say a rogue heading a thieves guild and a ranger, out in his/ her cabin)


9) naming: take a brief look through history books, news magazines, mythology books, and so on. i'd highly advise to give each culture/ race their own style, as it will help believiability.
oh, and try the name on some unrelated people before hand to make sure it doesn't sound funny. nothing wrecks a BBEG like a funny name.
damn, another point- make most names short. up to 3 syllables tops! the longer name may sounds complicated and impressive, but it's lost on the players. simple concise names can be powerfull enough...

hope this helpes,
Kol.

kamikasei
2008-05-14, 05:06 AM
1. My intended final enemy in my first campaign is a lich. He's genre savvy and has dealt with and defeated adventurers before. He knows how they operate, and has the souls of several defeated adventurers on call. When he recognizes that the PCs are a threat to him, he'll be sending four out to fight the party. One's a knight (read: Fighter with a preference for mounted combat). The others are yet to be decided. My problem is how do I handle them. They're not your usual zombie or skeleton. They're more like thralls. At the moment, using elements of the lich template seems to be the best. Are there any other solutions?

Homebrew it yourself, where by "homebrew" I mean "just say they're Undead and leave it at that". Build the enemies as normal adventurers and then change their type to Undead. Check various undead templates to make sure you're altering type-dependent stats appropriately.

I don't see much more being needed than that. You don't need to justify it by pointing to a template in the books. In line with the Necropolitan suggestion, though, you may want to give them some bonus to resist being turned or wrested away from the lich's control.

Nemoricus
2008-05-14, 05:14 AM
Let's see.

1. Very interesting idea, but isn't quite what I have in mind for the Thralls (seems to have taken on proper noun status). Recurring is not a bad idea, and I had thoughts to that effect anyway. The lich fashioned their current bodies and equipment to suit him. If they are defeated, these souls can leave the body, but don't have anywhere else but the lich to go to. Hmm...Maybe I should detail the lich a bit more.

EDIT: Missed the above post. Not a bad idea, and is probably what I'll be doing. I'm leaving this question open in case someone has something to add to it.

3. Sounds like good advice, though you'll have a hard time convincing me that mapping out the lich's dungeon in its entirety is not a good idea. Unless the players fail a knowledge (religion or arcana or genre savvy) check, in which case there's little point. It's not going to be the final battle then.

4. Mind, I've only considered the broadest roles for the races. I haven't gotten around to detailing the races and their cultures yet. I've merely noted that elves are going to be the next empire, but that does not mean they are one now. At best, they'd be a collection of separate nation-states, at worst city-states. Humans by default in this setting would have different groupings, different traditions. I still need basic ideas for the other races.

6. Great Wyrm Red Dragons are a bad idea for even a 20th level party. I get the point, and this question is closed.

7. I'm aware that in this setting, players may get a bit out of hand, but I only said that high levels are rare. They exist, but most won't see them. The elves would have their elite fighting forces that are meant specifically for dealing with powerful, out of control PCs, and the other races would have their own means. Besides, as I said, magic items aren't rare, and one or two useful ones will occasionally find their way into mortal hands. Still, those are rare and the leaders aren't going to use them unless they have to subdue such out of control PCs.

It did occur to me that, as written, wizards are perhaps the most gimped by a low magic setting. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Low level divine magic available on a regular basis is not a bad idea, but arcane is harder for me to justify.

9. Again, good advice, but coming up with names is my main problem. Stylistic consistency is not as much of a problem for me.

Triaxx
2008-05-14, 06:35 AM
3) That's easy enough. Let them mess around for ten levels or so, then hit them with the Thralls. They'll almost certainly want to find out why these ex-PC's attacked them. Especially if they find a note on the bodies.

4) Making the Lich a dispossessed human who wants to tear down the elven society is a great plot hook.

Want dragons? Give them their own 'kingdom', high in the mountains where they're generally left alone. Have the Lich kidnap an egg or two and raise it as a zombie dragon. The player's have to gain allies to defeat the dragon before they can take on the Lich. One of the tests is a fight against a dragon, but only to partial HP or with all weapons dealing non-lethal.

5) Nothing that can't be solved with an out of character conversation. Or a seriously CR inappropriate encounter. Something like fourteen higher than it should be. Then 'that didn't happen, and here's why'.

9)Just make them up as you go.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-14, 08:49 AM
I don't have a ton of time on my hands for message boarding right now so forgive me if I am abrupt.

3. Personally, I don't go in for a specific plot. Rather, I have my BBEG and other NPC's have plots, as in they are plotting themselves, and take particular actions in the game world. The Evil necromancer will steal some item he needs eventually for his big world of zombie making ritiual. The PCs can go after him then, or not. If they don't, he gets a step closer to his goal. If they do, and he escapes, he'll try again (or go after something else he can use) later. I.E., they will react to the PC actions, generating another adventure, rather than the PC's being forced to react to their actions at any particular time (short of when they are about to perfrom the Zombie world ritutal, then due to their not dealing with the guy earlier their backs are to the wall, as a direct result of their choices.) Meanwhile, some other NPC's, which may or may not have any association whatsoever with the BBEG Necro in question, are doing their own thing, generating more hooks an adventures.

However, if you do it this way, prepare to take a heck of a lot of notes. :smallwink:

9. STEAL. STEAL LIKE A MOFO. I get names all over the place. If I see an interesting name (or something that slightly permutated) on a street sign, flier, pop-up ad, passing bus, peice of junk mail, etc. I write it down for later use. Another option is to hit an online translator and start punching in words that might fit the character/place/item and seeing what they turn out to be in, say, sanskrit. The fiddle with them slightly.

Nemoricus
2008-05-14, 01:43 PM
@Triaxx

3. Not bad, but the lich is not stupid. He won't send his Thralls up against people who don't even know about him.

4. Alright, I'm detailing the lich now so that people know what he's up to.

Going by the Giant's book for villain creation.

X. Human or Elven Wizard, now a lich.

1. He's driven by a lust for power, with a hint of "it's my destiny" to it. He's meant to unnerve the players, not cause outright terror. Terror is useless to the lich, but fear, fear he can use.

2. I'm still working on his exact motivation, maybe a prophecy, maybe vengeance, maybe a simple lust for power.

3. He's meant to work on a scale that threatens the entire world.

4. The lich's ultimate goal is world domination.

5. The lich is planning to incite a war between the various elven factions. Note that this is not hatred for them, but a simple consideration that they are the dominant race at the time and a war with themselves is going to be fairly nasty. He plans to use this chaos to both increase the ranks of his army, provide a cloak of chaos to his actions, and provide time for him to act. It also has the nice bonus of weakening the strongest foe against him.

6. The lich's main obstacle is starting the war in the first place. It's not exactly easy convincing a race to turn on its self.

7. The lich is a manipulator. He prefers to work in the shadows and get others to do his will. He's dangerous on his own, but is not powerful enough to deal with the combined might of the elven states.

8. His main resource is his intellect. He's capable of intricate planning and coordination. He is also very patient, and is willing to postpone his plans rather than see them crash around him. He has the power of a high level Wizard, exact level to be determined, with a preference for the Necromantic arts. His undead minions serve him as guards, and in the case of the Thralls, assassins and enforcers. He also has a knack for finding useful magic items, which he sells to fund his operation. Those he doesn't decide to keep, anyway.

9. The lich is planning to poison the relationship between the leaders of the strongest elven factions. He then plans to use that bitterness to incite a war. He'll then use the chaos to cloak his actions, build his army, and buy time for his preparations. It'll also leave his strongest foes weak and divided.

10. The lich has few qualms about what he does. The only thing he won't do is break his word to someone once it's been given. He's very careful about who he gives it to, however.

11. The lich is personally very dangerous. He's crafty, and favors Necromancy, Illusion, and Enchantment spells with a hefty dose of Evocation thrown for good measure. The fact that he's undead give him an advantage in melee combat over ordinary spell casters.

12. The lich is fair in dealing with his allies and followers, of which there are few since he is very secretive. His undead zombies and skeletons don't matter to him, as they're just tools. The Thralls are different. He does not torture or torment them, but keeps a very close eye on them since he knows that they'll betray him if they got a chance.

13. He's a lich, an undead, so his appearance is fairly ghastly. He's been undead for at least a century, so he has very little flesh left. He wears fairly regal clothing when he's expecting guests. He's genre savvy, but that doesn't mean he doesn't like to look the part of a villain when the occasion calls for it.

13a. I've no clue what his theme would be.

14. The lich has a few contingency plans set in place in case things go wrong. First off, the dungeon he's living in presently is not his main one, so he has a back-up base of operations. Second, his phylactery is elsewhere. He's faked his death before and won't hesitate to do it again if need be. He doesn't like it, but will do it.

15. Names, as I've mentioned, are a definite weakness for me. I'll come up with one later.

As for dragons, I see them as fairly solitary and territorial, so no dragon kingdom. The lich doesn't mess with dragons himself. Mainly, he simply doesn't want to call attention to himself. One or two dragons he could deal with, but doing what you've suggested would anger the lot of them, and he wouldn't be able to handle that.

5. Hmm...I'd like to know what problems to expect within the party I've mentioned and head them off before they get out of hand.

9. I'd do that, but coming up with names is my problem, so I'd like suggestions on naming.

@AKA_Bait:

3. I'm probably doing something like that.

9. I'd rather not steal names. I'd prefer a unique feel to the names I use, and using someone else's would reduce that.

drengnikrafe
2008-05-14, 05:36 PM
Names! Always a challange.
Why don't you take words from the elven/dwarven/latin language, and twist them a little bit. Several good names come from other languages. You should start with what you're looking for in the way of characteristics, and branch out to words that just sound cool.

Nemoricus
2008-05-15, 05:22 AM
@drengnikrafe: That may work, but I'll see what happens.

@all:

4. I'd still like ideas for what to do with the races other than humans and elves.

5. I recall a homebrew that Druids could use in place of wild shape. It was something along the lines of manifesting an aspect of nature. I believe wings, claws, and some other things were in it. However, I can't find this. It was not far from a homebrew detailing a path to divinity varient for epic level play.

Another alternative I've thought of is having a Druid choose a climate and terrain, similar to the way a Cleric gets domain spells, and have them gain abilities and forms based on their choices. Thoughts?

7. I suppose I should clarify that magic isn't rare in this world. Powerful magic is. In addition, the cataclysmic way empires tend to end in breaks most organised magic groups, and it takes a very long time for them to rebuild. The world is currently not at the point where they have organised mages. They're too concerned about guarding their own power at this point.

Also, how exactly do I keep the PCs equipped without ruining the feel?

Nemoricus
2008-05-19, 04:43 PM
I suppose it's safe to bump the thread.

Anyway:

3. I've seen a lot of good advice here, and I thank you for it.

4. Closed, I've gotten ideas from other sources.

5. Still could use some more advice and comments.

7. I've found a solution for this. Closed.

9. I really need advice for this.

EDIT:

How exactly do you rate encounters with multiple NPCs? From my understanding, NPCs are assumed to have a CR equal to their class levels plus level adjustment. However, PCs are assumed to have an ECL equal to the average of their class levels. How exactly does this work out for multiple NPCs?

Second, how does the addition of a monster to the party affect their ECL?