PDA

View Full Version : Why



Cirigan
2008-05-13, 07:00 PM
for the life of me i can't figure out why creatures start out with racial hit die also have level adjustment, well i get that its to compensate for certain powers, but why why arent the powers just add out with the HD
i know savage species gives you an alternative, but this is just to figure out logic wise

also does anyone have a half minotaurs stats?

Nemoricus
2008-05-13, 07:03 PM
I'd think the reason that the writers don't increment the powers with the HD is because they don't have the time or inclination to make their monsters suited for PC use.

The Necroswanso
2008-05-13, 07:05 PM
It's simply to account for powers. Monsters are unfortunately not very good PCs sometimes, so when people want to play them the MM decides it's going to make that as impossible as possible.

A HALF MINOTAUR!? Come on! I realize D&D is fantasy, but there has to be SOME morals when it comes to beastiality. That's literally getting it on with a cow!

Glawackus
2008-05-13, 07:07 PM
It's simply to account for powers. Monsters are unfortunately not very good PCs sometimes, so when people want to play them the MM decides it's going to make that as impossible as possible.

A HALF MINOTAUR!? Come on! I realize D&D is fantasy, but there has to be SOME morals when it comes to beastiality. That's literally getting it on with a cow!

Wouldn't a half-minotaur only be quarter-cow, though?

Farmer42
2008-05-13, 07:11 PM
It's simply to account for powers. Monsters are unfortunately not very good PCs sometimes, so when people want to play them the MM decides it's going to make that as impossible as possible.

A HALF MINOTAUR!? Come on! I realize D&D is fantasy, but there has to be SOME morals when it comes to beastiality. That's literally getting it on with a cow!

Rule 34? And the Half-minotaur was in dragon #idontremember. I believe crystalkeep has the relevant stats in their template pdf.

Cirigan
2008-05-13, 07:11 PM
It's simply to account for powers. Monsters are unfortunately not very good PCs sometimes, so when people want to play them the MM decides it's going to make that as impossible as possible.

A HALF MINOTAUR!? Come on! I realize D&D is fantasy, but there has to be SOME morals when it comes to beastiality. That's literally getting it on with a cow!

i was thinking the opposite, kinda like with half orcs, so pretty much something similar to minotaur rape

Chronicled
2008-05-13, 07:13 PM
A HALF MINOTAUR!? Come on! I realize D&D is fantasy, but there has to be SOME morals when it comes to beastiality. That's literally getting it on with a cow!

"Hey, you into leather?"

Jack_Simth
2008-05-13, 07:13 PM
It's simply to account for powers. Monsters are unfortunately not very good PCs sometimes, so when people want to play them the MM decides it's going to make that as impossible as possible.

To a goodly extent, critter's powers are difficult to account for long-term. Regeneration 1, on a monster, doesn't mean much - over the course of a long fight, it's less than one hit... at first level ... and requires a knowledge check to locate the appropriate penetrating type of damage. Regeneration 1, on a PC, means that losing a level to Raise Dead or Resurrection is decidedly rare.

The difference, for a monster, between an ability usable four times per day and an ability usable at will is fairly minor - the monster isn't usually going to last that long. The PC Vampire with Dominate at-will, on the other hand, is going to slaughter many an encounter unless he's very significantly behind the party in other ways.


A HALF MINOTAUR!? Come on! I realize D&D is fantasy, but there has to be SOME morals when it comes to beastiality. That's literally getting it on with a cow!
Not necessarily. Consider the poor peasant woman who survives being a Minotaur's sport for the evening, and later escapes.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-13, 07:15 PM
Also, remember how the first minotaur came about ... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasiphaë)

sonofzeal
2008-05-13, 07:16 PM
for the life of me i can't figure out why creatures start out with racial hit die also have level adjustment, well i get that its to compensate for certain powers, but why why arent the powers just add out with the HD
i know savage species gives you an alternative, but this is just to figure out logic wise
Because some creatures are FAR TOO powerful for their HD. The Marrulurk from Sandstorm, the Maug from Fiend Folio, and the Pixie from the good old Mon Man are perfect examples where those few lost class levels are by no means a proper balancing factor against the rampant awesomeness that you get. LA, in theory, brings it back within the realm of reason. Now, usually they erred on the side of caution when assigning LA, and an advanced player can get significantly more benefit out of a class level in most cases, but I still respect the logic.

Nebo_
2008-05-13, 07:19 PM
When something has racial HD, its level adjustment is usually lower to account for it. The Ambush Drake has 6 Dragon HD and no level adjustment.

Farmer42
2008-05-13, 07:27 PM
i was thinking the opposite, kinda like with half orcs, so pretty much something similar to minotaur rape

Am I the only one who finds this statement ironic on these boards after the recent comic?

Glawackus
2008-05-13, 08:33 PM
"Hey, you into leather?"

You win the thread.

Nonanonymous
2008-05-13, 08:47 PM
i was thinking the opposite, kinda like with half orcs, so pretty much something similar to minotaur rape

...That's about over 9000 times worse than the idea of a quarterling.

RS14
2008-05-13, 08:58 PM
To the OP, I think naively replacing LA with more hit-dice would just hurt monster PC's more. Yes, it hurts (a lot) to be six or seven HD behind the rest of your party, but replacing LA with hit-dice must sensibly increase your ECL. Furthermore, the primary problem that many of the weaker monster PC's face is that their abilities don't scale with level at all - sure more HD will at least make them durable, but their special qualities and special attacks will be even weaker in comparison to what they should have at that level.

Oh, and a bovine wizard did it. :smallwink:

Glyde
2008-05-13, 09:18 PM
It's simply to account for powers. Monsters are unfortunately not very good PCs sometimes, so when people want to play them the MM decides it's going to make that as impossible as possible.

A HALF MINOTAUR!? Come on! I realize D&D is fantasy, but there has to be SOME morals when it comes to beastiality. That's literally getting it on with a cow!


I'm playing an Ibixian / Minotaur cross-breed that's having a relationship with a star elf. The I/M is the female. With 27 charisma.

Open your mind, you play D&D.

Ryuuk
2008-05-13, 09:21 PM
LA already increases ECL though, from my understading, ECL = RHD+LA+Class Levels. You point still stands though, class abilities would come too late to be useful and there's also the fact thatyou can't buy back HD, as you can LA.

Perhaps he only way converting LA to HD would benefeit a PC was if, from a mechanical perspecive, the PC was only depended on a prestige class. They could use the racial hit dies to meet the prerequisite skill points and feats and enter the class without taking any actual base class levels. Of course, his would be almost entirely limited to melee/fighter based prestige classes.

Vortling
2008-05-13, 09:48 PM
I'm playing an Ibixian / Minotaur cross-breed that's having a relationship with a star elf. The I/M is the female. With 27 charisma.

Open your mind, you play D&D.

In response to this and everyone complaining about half-minotaurs

Probably NSFW (http://www.elfwood.com/art/a/n/andersson/minotauress_mishap_02.jpg.html)

AND

Also NSFW (http://www.elfwood.com/art/a/n/andersson/family_gathering_colored.jpg.html)

Glyde
2008-05-13, 09:50 PM
Y'see, that's what I'm talking about.

tyckspoon
2008-05-13, 09:58 PM
Perhaps he only way converting LA to HD would benefeit a PC was if, from a mechanical perspecive, the PC was only depended on a prestige class. They could use the racial hit dies to meet the prerequisite skill points and feats and enter the class without taking any actual base class levels. Of course, his would be almost entirely limited to melee/fighter based prestige classes.

Changing LA to racial Hit dice would pretty much *always* benefit the PC. You'd be changing phantom levels that do absolutely nothing for basic hit dice that would at least give you everything that is attached to hit dice (HP, BAB, saves, skill points, vulnerability to spells like Sleep and Holy Word/Blasphemy). About the only place where that isn't better than an LA is when the LA portion is relatively low (say +2 or less) and may reasonably be bought off to be replaced with proper class levels.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-13, 10:56 PM
I'm playing an Ibixian / Minotaur cross-breed that's having a relationship with a star elf. The I/M is the female. With 27 charisma.

Open your mind, you play D&D.

*Closes his mind. Closes his mind WITH FIRE.*

Solo
2008-05-13, 11:05 PM
Why

Because

:smallamused:

Chronos
2008-05-13, 11:19 PM
When something has racial HD, its level adjustment is usually lower to account for it. The Ambush Drake has 6 Dragon HD and no level adjustment.Whoa, there's a dragon with no LA? Dragon HD are almost worth it by themselves, and I imagine that it gets some other goodies, too (flight? Breath weapon?).

Which also leads to part of the reason why you can't just replace LA with RHD: Some racial HD are far better than others. For instance, a humanoid gets an 8-sided HD, 3/4 BAB, one good save, and 2 skill points. By contrast, an outsider also gets an 8-sided HD, but gets full BAB, all good saves, and 8 skill points. You really can't pile on enough RHD onto an outsider to make up for the cool abilities many of them get, since outsider RHD are already better than some classes by themselves. Dragons are much the same: They get slightly fewer skill points (6 per HD), but they still get the best possible BAB and saves, as well as the largest possible HD (d12).

Bassetking
2008-05-14, 12:25 AM
"Hey, you into leather?"
response spoilered for sake of sanity.
"Only about six inches.:smallamused:"

Chronicled
2008-05-14, 12:33 AM
response spoilered for sake of sanity

*Hands Bassetking the thread win received from Glawackus *

Farmer42
2008-05-14, 12:38 AM
I need a really hot shower now...maybe one for my brain, too... I don't I will ever feel clean again.

The Necroswanso
2008-05-14, 12:45 AM
I'm playing an Ibixian / Minotaur cross-breed that's having a relationship with a star elf. The I/M is the female. With 27 charisma.

Open your mind, you play D&D.


Last time I opened my mind with D&D I single handedly created the 1/3 gnome, 1/3 sphinx, 1/3 human......My DM has requested I stop opening my mind, or atleast when my mind opens, close my mouth.
My DM likes descriptiveness.....But not when I do it.


P.S. It's first words were, "I'm an abomination!"

SurlySeraph
2008-05-14, 01:14 AM
Shamefully innuendous blaspho-treason.

...
Okay, this thread has gone too long without creative people who do not share my sense of morality catching fire. THE EMPEROR WILLS IT!

http://media.wtvh.com/images/fire_flames.jpg

TheOOB
2008-05-14, 01:20 AM
Nobody knows why 3e has such a strange and overly complex level adjustment system. Perhaps thats why they are getting rid of it in 4e.

Tengu
2008-05-14, 01:20 AM
Last time I opened my mind with D&D I single handedly created the 1/3 gnome, 1/3 sphinx, 1/3 human......My DM has requested I stop opening my mind, or atleast when my mind opens, close my mouth.
My DM likes descriptiveness.....But not when I do it.


P.S. It's first words were, "I'm an abomination!"

Did it have three parents?


Nobody knows why 3e has such a strange and overly complex level adjustment system. Perhaps thats why they are getting rid of it in 4e.

I suspect its purpose is to discourage people from playing weird races and instead create characters that are original because of their personalities.

The Necroswanso
2008-05-14, 01:22 AM
No.......That's also why my DM never allows me near Grell in a non-combat situation, or kobolds.

Chronicled
2008-05-14, 02:12 AM
Last time I opened my mind with D&D I single handedly created the 1/3 gnome, 1/3 sphinx, 1/3 human......My DM has requested I stop opening my mind, or atleast when my mind opens, close my mouth.
My DM likes descriptiveness.....But not when I do it.


P.S. It's first words were, "I'm an abomination!"

I'm obliged to respond with this (http://feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=24).

Glyde
2008-05-14, 07:24 PM
I don't know if any offspring is even possible coming off my character. Like a mule. <3

Burn your brains all you want, you folks aren't in my campaign. We're very RP heavy, and this kind of relationship creates a lot of weird character development. The relationship hasn't actually flourished yet, but the elf is just starting to realize what's happening. Heh.

Nonanonymous
2008-05-14, 07:35 PM
I'm playing an Ibixian / Minotaur cross-breed that's having a relationship with a star elf. The I/M is the female. With 27 charisma.

Open your mind, you play D&D.

No. A cat is NOT fine too, and it's NOT "AWW-RIGHTTT!!!"

Glyde
2008-05-14, 09:28 PM
I assume jealousy.

Larrin
2008-05-15, 05:30 AM
half minotaur is Dragon 313, or go here http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php click on templates and go to page 11.

Ecalsneerg
2008-05-15, 06:54 AM
I suspect its purpose is to discourage people from playing weird races and instead create characters that are original because of their personalities.

So you can't have both? Poorly roleplayed characters are poorly roleplayed characters, regardless of whether they are human, dwarf or half-Illithid lizardfolk.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-15, 07:27 AM
...That's about over 9000 times worse than the idea of a quarterling.

9000 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6197925078336284156&q) times worse you say?

bosssmiley
2008-05-15, 07:52 AM
So you can't have both? Poorly roleplayed characters are poorly roleplayed characters, regardless of whether they are human, dwarf or half-Illithid lizardfolk.

Some (thankfully few) players use gimmicky race selection as a substitute for actually role-playing. Others...well there's always one who just wants to play the freakshow. I don't speculate why any more. :smallannoyed:

General rule of thumb: show that you can inhabit the role and mindset of another humanoid without rending the delicate veil of verisimilitude first; then we'll talk about monstrous races.

As for the OP's original question. LA was an attempt to balance monster races in a similar manner to the one that OD&D once employed. Unfortunately it resulted in monster characters being charged twice for their abilities. Once for HD - gravy (SLAs, immunities and the like), then again for gravy - HD. The net result: unhallowed non-level appropriate b0rkage like the +8LA(!) on vampires, or the "Savage Species" monster progressions.

Chronos
2008-05-15, 01:40 PM
Unfortunately it resulted in monster characters being charged twice for their abilities. Once for HD - gravy (SLAs, immunities and the like), then again for gravy - HD. The net result: unhallowed non-level appropriate b0rkage like the +8LA(!) on vampires, or the "Savage Species" monster progressions.Like the time I bought something that cost eight bucks, I had to hand the cashier a five, and then, even though I had paid a five, I also had to give her three ones. I got charged twice!

Really, you can argue about whether any particular LA is the right amount, but it doesn't make sense to complain about it on the specific grounds of it being a double-charge. For a lot of things, the RHD aren't a high enough price to pay for it, so you have to add something more. That something more is the LA.

Iudex Fatarum
2008-05-15, 07:27 PM
I did at one point try to play an awakened hawk. It was insane to try and do, I was tiny, so didn't threaten squares so now to be effective I had to be a mage. And the 2+1HD so as a fourth level caster I had only first level spells. This seems like an amazing ability, a smart hawk diviner watches the world from above and then watches it even further with his magics. But in reality I couldn't do squat, oh and my stats 3d6 INT, 6+1d6 CHA, and 14 WIS. so making a character with on average 6 STR, 17 DEX, 10 CON, 10 INT 14 WIS 9 CHA cannot wear armour, has to take a feat to be able to cast spells (DM had me take Natural Spell) the big plus of this character is +8 to spot checks (an item to give a temporary bonus like this is 640 gp) has racial hit die of 3. This seems way over the top for a PC, give me class levels.
I understand that this is quite a-typical to do but come on its great especially if we have a druid in the party. either he or his master awakened me and sent me along to accompany him.

Tengu
2008-05-15, 07:40 PM
So you can't have both? Poorly roleplayed characters are poorly roleplayed characters, regardless of whether they are human, dwarf or half-Illithid lizardfolk.

You can, but I've seen a character whose sole gimmick was having a weird race or class one time too often. I guess that people who like to play weird races tend to develop lazy mentalities when coming up with other traits for their characters.

Artanis
2008-05-15, 08:10 PM
Because the rest of the thread is making my brain try to carve its way out of my skull with a spork so that it can go bathe in flaming bleach...


To the OP's question, I always looked at Racial HD and LA as two degrees of the exact same thing because they have identical effects on ECL. Every Racial HD costs you a class level, and every +1 LA costs you a class level. However, Racial HD at least gets you some hp, skill points, BAB, etc. Long story short, I looked at it as Racial HD being a slightly less severe version of LA.

Toliudar
2008-05-15, 08:13 PM
Really? I haven't noticed that any more often than I've notice people fixating on any other aspect of the mechanics - class, feats, a shiny weapon - as a fill in for character development. Seems that people who are inclined to focus on character development will follow that muse.

Those whose interests lie elsewhere will focus there. Some of both groups will choose strange races - some for the RP possibilities, some for the mechanics of a build, some for a blend of the two.

YMMV.

Iudex Fatarum
2008-05-15, 09:27 PM
I actually was just listening to a podcast on that very subject. Mechanically you don't want a character to be odd, nor do you want it to be the only gimmick in the character personality. A person must show why they are that race and think like that race. I have seen this done poorly and I have seen this done very well.

bosssmiley
2008-05-16, 04:01 AM
Like the time I bought something that cost eight bucks, I had to hand the cashier a five, and then, even though I had paid a five, I also had to give her three ones. I got charged twice!

Really, you can argue about whether any particular LA is the right amount, but it doesn't make sense to complain about it on the specific grounds of it being a double-charge. For a lot of things, the RHD aren't a high enough price to pay for it, so you have to add something more. That something more is the LA.

You misunderstand my intent. LA as written is like being charged cover price for the over of a book, then charged again for the pages.

Look at a PC vampire, or any of the Savage Species-style racial progressions. An NPC Avoral (as presented in the Planar Handbook) is a CR8 (IIRC) combatant with 8 HD and a slew of SLAs. Yet as a PC exactly the same monster (with 8 HD, +8 BAB and the same bunch of racial SLAs) is - thanks to his +6 LA - supposedly a CR*14* combatant (14 racial levels).

How is that *not* b0rked?

Griffin131
2008-05-16, 06:34 AM
You misunderstand my intent. LA as written is like being charged cover price for the over of a book, then charged again for the pages.

Look at a PC vampire, or any of the Savage Species-style racial progressions. An NPC Avoral (as presented in the Planar Handbook) is a CR8 (IIRC) combatant with 8 HD and a slew of SLAs. Yet as a PC exactly the same monster (with 8 HD, +8 BAB and the same bunch of racial SLAs) is - thanks to his +6 LA - supposedly a CR*14* combatant (14 racial levels).

How is that *not* b0rked?
Because those same SLAs are worth more in the hands of a player than the DM - in a battle, the DM only gets to use those SLAs for that battle. As a player, the player gets to use those SLAs his entire career.

bosssmiley
2008-05-16, 08:35 AM
Because those same SLAs are worth more in the hands of a player than the DM - in a battle, the DM only gets to use those SLAs for that battle. As a player, the player gets to use those SLAs his entire career.

Yes, but those SLAs:

1) Do not scale by level (they scale by racial HD)
2) Are gained instead of normal class abilities like, oh say, full advancement caster levels

Seriously, a Succubus as a PC is about on a par with a *warlock* of level equal to her HD, not her HD+6 (as LA claims). Ditto for most outsiders, wish casters like Efreet and Angels excepted (the latter are under CR'ed).

Griffin131
2008-05-16, 10:22 AM
Yes, but those SLAs:

1) Do not scale by level (they scale by racial HD)
2) Are gained instead of normal class abilities like, oh say, full advancement caster levels

Seriously, a Succubus as a PC is about on a par with a *warlock* of level equal to her HD, not her HD+6 (as LA claims). Ditto for most outsiders, wish casters like Efreet and Angels excepted (the latter are under CR'ed).

So going with a Succubus, its a CR 7 monster. That means that 4 level 7 chars should be able to take it out using 25% of their resources, or one should be able to take it out using 100% of its resources (which counts HPs... itd be bad to lose 100% of your HPs...).

A succubus is far far stronger than a warlock of comparable level. Casters have about a 50% chance of beating SR (if they use SR spells), Energy Drain...

I think you're understimating the strength of lots of the high LA races. Are some of them higher than they should be? Sure! Are they being doublecharged unfairly? I seriously dont think so.