Low Magic Settings?

[bbugg]

I see reference occasionally to 'low magic settings'. I like this - I find magic is just too prevalent in some worlds (FR). I'm wondering though, how you apply it. I'm picturing a 'low' not 'no' magic setting - i.e. magic items are around, they're just not common. no magic shops, for example, you get what you find.

By making the setting 'low magic', are you unbalancing things (assuming they were ever balanced to begin with)? Does the lack of abundant scrolls gimp a wizard? Or does the lack of fancy weaponry and armour hurt the fighter even more than he is already hurting? Can PCs keep pace with their enemies, seeing that most high CR creatures are inherantly magical? Is there anything left for PCs to buy if there are no magic stores? Is a cleric or sorcerer insanely powerful now?

Discuss.

[monty]

Magic items really aren't an issue if the casters take item creation feats. The biggest problem I see is with scrolls and wizards. Although it would make the wizard less overpowered, if you don't provide some means for them to get new spells, they basically become sorcerers with fewer spells per day and no spontaneity (remember, clerics and druids automatically know all their spells, so this won't hurt them much at all).

[Reel On, Love]

Fighter types are hurt the worst by a "low-magic" game in which they're significantly under-itemed. AC is the thing that suffers most, but they lose a lot of AB, too, and are generally all-around very fragile.

Rogues' combat survival goes out the window.


Casters care, but not nearly as much. The cleric makes up for it with Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Power; the wizard still flies around and goes invisible.

[Xefas]

By making the setting 'low magic', are you unbalancing things (assuming they were ever balanced to begin with)? Does the lack of abundant scrolls gimp a wizard? Or does the lack of fancy weaponry and armour hurt the fighter even more than he is already hurting? Can PCs keep pace with their enemies, seeing that most high CR creatures are inherantly magical? Is there anything left for PCs to buy if there are no magic stores? Is a cleric or sorcerer insanely powerful now?

By sentence:

Yes (No, they weren't). No. Yes. No. Yes. Even more so than they were before.

Non-Spellcasters are ridiculously dependent on gear. Spellcasters merely use gear to become better at what they already do.

[bbugg]

Ok - so that's kind of what I had figured. Spellcasters are fine (wizards a little inconvenienced) but others are screwed.

So, the question is, what's the fix? I hear people mention that they play in a low magic setting all the time - how do they implement it?

[monty]

Ok - so that's kind of what I had figured. Spellcasters are fine (wizards a little inconvenienced) but others are screwed.

So, the question is, what's the fix? I hear people mention that they play in a low magic setting all the time - how do they implement it?

Give your casters free item creation feats, maybe? That way, they can get what they want, but there's still a significant cost (nobody likes XP loss).

[Chronicled]

I see reference occasionally to 'low magic settings'. I like this - I find magic is just too prevalent in some worlds (FR). I'm wondering though, how you apply it. I'm picturing a 'low' not 'no' magic setting - i.e. magic items are around, they're just not common. no magic shops, for example, you get what you find.

By making the setting 'low magic', are you unbalancing things (assuming they were ever balanced to begin with)? Does the lack of abundant scrolls gimp a wizard? Or does the lack of fancy weaponry and armour hurt the fighter even more than he is already hurting? Can PCs keep pace with their enemies, seeing that most high CR creatures are inherantly magical? Is there anything left for PCs to buy if there are no magic stores? Is a cleric or sorcerer insanely powerful now?

Discuss.

If you're making the setting low magic, you need to make a few mechanical changes to compensate for the absence of magic items. Things like an active defense bonus (from Iron Heroes), and Reserve Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm) are some ways to help with this.

It can be done, and can be done well, but it also depends on the group. If you want a low magic setting and your group wants to be wizards and artificers, it's not going to mesh well. I recently finished a low magic campaign (where the plane of existence they were on suppressed most magic--not that of the PCs, though; I did implement the defense bonus, reserve points, and bonus to saves) where the only casters were the paladin and the beguiler (the other two were a swordsage and barbarian). With my reasonably optimized players, balance was pretty even.

[Xefas]

So, the question is, what's the fix? I hear people mention that they play in a low magic setting all the time - how do they implement it?

Play 4th edition? Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition Play 4th edition

Tome of Battle might help. Things like Mountain Hammer negating damage reduction go a long way to making non-casters more viable. The massive gulf in power will still be there, but they'll be able to participate.

[Reel On, Love]

So, the question is, what's the fix? I hear people mention that they play in a low magic setting all the time - how do they implement it?
Poorly.

Most people who play "low-magic" don't deal with issues like "fighter types have no AC".

Alternatively, they only play at low levels, at which your magic items are highly limited anyway so removing them doesn't change things all that much.


D&D doesn't support "low-magic" at all well. To do it below the lowest levels, you should really have a system that does support it, like Conan d20 or Iron Heroes.

[Talya]

Assuming you keep giving your melee types what they need to do their job, what "Low Magic" really tends to do is bring Wizards down to the same level as Sorcerers, Clerics, and Druids. (Sorcerers may actually know more spells than a wizard of the same level in a setting where scrolls are scarce.) Other than that, it doesn't change much.

[weenie]

Well, you could play E6, but if you want to play a high fantasy game with less magic I'd suggest banning item creation and slowing spell progression. That should balance things out a bit.

[bosssmiley]

You could:

1) Reduced availability: Limit all the caster classes to the Bard spell level progression table. Available spell levels max out at level 6, but all classes keep their own PHB spell lists. This serves to make bards a little less sappy at high levels...

2) The Magician: Reduce arcane magic to Divination spells + levels 1-2 of all other schools (per the old Birthright magician class).

2.1) Super-specialism: Reduce arcane magic to one selected school + limited available levels of all other schools. Establish 7 or 8 rival schools or traditions of arcane magic. WFRP (a classic low-magic game) went with this at one point...

3) Domain-only casting: Divine casters get their domain spell/day + bonus spells from Wis. Their spell selection? The domains they picked at creation.

4) Spell per week: Divine casters have one holy day per week during which they can pray to regain their spells. That's their lot until they next enact the blessed/accursed rites a quarter-moon hence.

5) Defiler magic: power at a price. See the Defilers of Athas article in Dragon #315 for an update of this old Dark Sun trope to D&D3.

6) Use E6.

Any of these options reduces caster power substantially. Make sure your players are cool with this before springing it on them...

[Pronounceable]

A low magic game is not a DnD campaign with little to no magic items and few casters. A low magic ruleset has to limit, discourage or outright ban magic users in addition to reducing or removing magical gear. Which'd make DnD quite unplayable.


So, the question is, what's the fix? I hear people mention that they play in a low magic setting all the time - how do they implement it?

By not using DnD. Or houseruling till the cows come home. Or

Poorly. DnD and low magic doesn't mesh.

[Callos_DeTerran]

A) Low magic is very much playable in D&D. All of Boss-smiley's suggestions would work (I don't know about E6 but thats because I haven't played it). The most important thing to do is put a cap on what magic CAN accomplish. If you have an upper limit then you can build down from there.

B) Decide what place magical creatures will play. There ARE monsters at higher CR that don't use magic (but are usually big and/or dumb) or are on the low-end of magical powers but big on melee. Is the entire game low-magic or only the Prime Material? If fiends and celestials and stuff can still use their spell-like abilities fully then summoners have become more powerful since the potential exists to call in creatures that have magical powers the PC's don't. If you use monsters normally, as they are, then you need to account for the fact they have magic that PC's might not be able to counter anymore. If your going for an 'over-whelming' sort of feel for powerful monsters, then thats great. It'll encourage planning on the PC's part but eventually they will have to flee from things and PCs tend not to like that.

C) Change DR or make sure magical items CAN be found with enough effort.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Low-magic D&D?

Do you mean Iron Heroes? Conan d20? There's a ton of good d20 games, with mechanics next to identical to D&D, that do fine as no-magic games. In fact, Conan d20 is practically a no-equipment game. You can do fine without armor (since it only gives DR, and Defence increases with levels). If you're unarmed, you can always kill a mook and take their weapon, and you're as deadly as ever.

I don't know Iron Heroes as well, but I understand it also moves the focus from your WBL to your class abilities?


The best thing I can recommend is to check out how Conan d20 does it. There's a ton of small rules and chargen changes that compensate wonderfully for the totaly lack of magic items (every magic item is a unique artifact, basically, and you're unlikely to ever be in possession of more than one, and that temporarily).

[TheDarkOne]

Low-magic D&D?

Do you mean Iron Heroes? Conan d20? There's a ton of good d20 games, with mechanics next to identical to D&D, that do fine as no-magic games. In fact, Conan d20 is practically a no-equipment game. You can do fine without armor (since it only gives DR, and Defence increases with levels). If you're unarmed, you can always kill a mook and take their weapon, and you're as deadly as ever.

I don't know Iron Heroes as well, but I understand it also moves the focus from your WBL to your class abilities?


The best thing I can recommend is to check out how Conan d20 does it. There's a ton of small rules and chargen changes that compensate wonderfully for the totaly lack of magic items (every magic item is a unique artifact, basically, and you're unlikely to ever be in possession of more than one, and that temporarily).

I was going to suggest Iron Heroes. I played it a bit, it was fun. I think part of what they tried to do with the system was make it so that you could carry CR over from regular D&D. Ie An "average" level x iron heroes party(with no magic items) should be able to tackle the same challenges a level x D&D party can handle(with their appropriate magic items).

[Jayabalard]

By making the setting 'low magic', are you unbalancing things (assuming they were ever balanced to begin with)?This depends on what you mean by "low magic" but done properly, it doesn't really make the game any less balanced. By "done properly" I mean that you cannot just reduce magic items and call it "low magic" ... there are a lot of other details that you're going to have to houserule and tweak. In general, this isn't something that D&D does well, since so many of the assumptions are based on a fairly high magic world.


Does the lack of abundant scrolls gimp a wizard? It can, depending on what restrictions you place on the 2 free spells they get (you should be more restrictive of their options in a low magic world), and how often they have a chance to plunder an enemy wizard's spellbook (which should be very rare since you're in a low magic world).


Or does the lack of fancy weaponry and armour hurt the fighter even more than he is already hurting?Not really; the PC fighter's enemies should be also without magic, so while they are indeed weaker, their enemies should wind up weaker as well.


Can PCs keep pace with their enemies, seeing that most high CR creatures are inherantly magical?Inherently magical creatures are generally out of place in a true low magic setting. They should be extremely rare. You'll probably need to homebrew non- or low-magic versions of most creatures to make them more appropriate to the setting.


Is there anything left for PCs to buy if there are no magic stores?Yes, but the stuff that you can spend money on is not as inherantly useful as magic items are.

[Wooter]

The problem is non-humanoid enemies. If you're fighting other humanoids, then the lack of magic items sort of evens out. But when there are enemies with high natural armor, damage resistance, and natural attacks...

Well, let's just say you'll have to adjust CR accordingly.

[Jayabalard]

The problem is non-humanoid enemies. If you're fighting other humanoids, then the lack of magic items sort of evens out. But when there are enemies with high natural armor, damage resistance, and natural attacks...

Well, let's just say you'll have to adjust CR accordingly.Agreed, if you're going to pull out enemies that have high natural armor Damage resistance and weird natural attacks then you'll need to boost their CR.

But those sort of creature should be fairly rare. Most opponents in a low magic setting should be fairly mundane creatures.

[Farmer42]

The problem is non-humanoid enemies. If you're fighting other humanoids, then the lack of magic items sort of evens out. But when there are enemies with high natural armor, damage resistance, and natural attacks...

Well, let's just say you'll have to adjust CR accordingly.

Not Just CR, there are a whole host of monster out of the MM that you just can't use, and as you get higher and higher in level the list of CR appropriate monsters dwindles further and further, since A)most of them are inherently magical (see magical beasts, outsiders, and golems) or B) rely heavily on magic (see mindflayers, beholders, and other aberrations).

[Maxymiuk]

I tend to run my campaigns in homebrew low magic settings almost exclusively. Which essentially means I also have to homebrew the everloving crap out of every encounter to account for that. Custom monsters (if any at all), more "mook horde" encounters, and rarer combat - I make up for that by making my games more RP intensive.

I'll agree however that D&D isn't suited for that kind of play. If only I could find people willing to play some other system...

[random11]

A basic low-magic setting limits the shops and the number of spell casters in the world, making the PC spell casters more unique, and harder to imitate with items.
Ironically, that makes spell casters stronger in comparison to others.

If you want a REAL low-magic setting, you need to think of a reason why there are so few spell casters in the world.
Two good options, although there are others:

1) Spell casting isn't just a skill, it is also something that requires you to have some kind of a natural gift. Limit the number of spell casters in the group to just one or two if it's a large group.

2) Spell casting is VERY hard to learn.
Increase the EXP required to level up for spell casters by a lot. Sure, it won't be balanced, but this is a low magic setting with a system that lives in a high magic setting, breaking the balance is unavoidable if you want to implement it.

[Chronicled]

A basic low-magic setting limits the shops and the number of spell casters in the world, making the PC spell casters more unique, and harder to imitate with items.
Ironically, that makes spell casters stronger in comparison to others.

If you want a REAL low-magic setting, you need to think of a reason why there are so few spell casters in the world.
Two good options, although there are others:

1) Spell casting isn't just a skill, it is also something that requires you to have some kind of a natural gift. Limit the number of spell casters in the group to just one or two if it's a large group.

2) Spell casting is VERY hard to learn.
Increase the EXP required to level up for spell casters by a lot. Sure, it won't be balanced, but this is a low magic setting with a system that lives in a high magic setting, breaking the balance is unavoidable if you want to implement it.

The problem with the 1st one is that having only 1 or 2 casters means they will be much more powerful than the rest of the group, who might feel resentful.

A friend of mine is about to start testing a version that impliments some of your first example, and a lot of "if you use your magic/ability, you pay a cost." As in, each use might require you break a finger (or something else that's less than fun for the character).

So there's a third option: each and every spell requires expending enough gp/xp/hp (or some combination thereof) to notice. Or, if you're feeling particularly nasty, have each spell age the character (roll for a minimum starting age, and secretly roll the PC's max age before dying). Keep in mind this will probably lead to casters sitting out a lot of their turns or just plinking away with a crossbow.

[NEO|Phyte]

Or, if you're feeling particularly nasty, have each spell age the character (roll for a minimum starting age, and secretly roll the PC's max age before dying). Keep in mind this will probably lead to casters picking a race with no maximum age.

fixed that for you.

[Chronicled]

fixed that for you.

*Goes and sits in corner*
*Puts on Dunce cap*

[random11]

The problem with the 1st one is that having only 1 or 2 casters means they will be much more powerful than the rest of the group, who might feel resentful.


True.
That reminds me of the "Ars Magica" game system, where there was a built in major difference between mages and other players. That setting sure doesn't fit all players.



A friend of mine is about to start testing a version that impliments some of your first example, and a lot of "if you use your magic/ability, you pay a cost." As in, each use might require you break a finger (or something else that's less than fun for the character).

So there's a third option: each and every spell requires expending enough gp/xp/hp (or some combination thereof) to notice. Or, if you're feeling particularly nasty, have each spell age the character (roll for a minimum starting age, and secretly roll the PC's max age before dying). Keep in mind this will probably lead to casters sitting out a lot of their turns or just plinking away with a crossbow.

Other options from that area:

- Require gems to cast spells. Meaning that it will require the characters to spend both time and money if they want to cast spells. That will work with any other rare spell component.

- Spells are given by entities that require services for the power. Many side quests for the spell casters, the less rewarding they are, the better.
Furthermore, the spells won't work if it is against the interests of the entities (or just not directly FOR their interests)

- Campaign setting, spells are highly illegal and detectable on long range, attracting unnecessary attention from the laws.
Or worse, spells draw the attention of creatures from a different plane, the more you use it, the more chances you will be discovered.

[Tengu]

Low magic settings are great. Worlds where heroes have to depend on their own guts and cunning instead of a pile of magical items and a friendly wizard buffing them are much more interesting than Forgotten Realms - the fact that most fantasy novels take place in world with magic much less common than DND is proof.

However, trying to make a low magic world simply by taking DND and removing access to higher-level items is, as others have already proven, as stupid as trying to run a serious horror game in Toon by adding mechanics for sanity.
You're better off just playing a different game.

[Satyr]

It is possible to create a DnD based low fantasy setting / system. It is a lot of work and is probably much easier to just change to another system, but it works. Currently, I am running a more or less low fantasy / low magic campaign, and till know (the PCs started at level 2 and are level 11 now) it worked surprisingly well.

There are several things to consider:

seriosly nerf all forms of asspell casters. I did it through longer casting times (every spell takes as many rounds to be cast as his spell level) and making it necessary to succeed in a concentration check (DC 10 + Spell levelx2) to successfully cast a spell. And a natural one on the spellcasting check is bad.
the required spell caster level of every magical item is doubled, the XP- costs of item creation is 1/10 of the price.
Make non-casters stronger. We use a 'new and improved' set of traits for every class and most of these classes are a lot more reliable than magic. There is a new class ability level, dead levels are boring.
Apart from the BAB there is a Base Defense Bonus that increases per level. Armor does not increase the Defense but offers DR. Armor penalties are aplied to the checks for successfully spellcasting.
Apart from race and class, characters chose a heroic path, which brings aditional features. These paths were stolen from Midnight and offer more interesting features and flavor to the PC's. It's like a light version of the gesstalt rules.
The WBL and all treausure are reduced by 75%. The costs of all equipment stay stable.
The campaign antagonists tend to be less exotic than usual; less enemies which are clearly created by magic, more humanoids with class levels.
The PC's get more feats and more ability increases than usual; one feat every even level (and at 1st level), +1 to any ability score every three levels. The characters are more powerful and less dependant from their equipment.


It's the best D&D campaign I was ever involved in and I don't think that I would change back to the standard rules in the near future.

Another, much simpler variety: Either a character is a spellcaster or a gestalt character. Gestalt characters may never take levels in a class that grants spells or similar abilities (with a probable exception of rangers and paladins).

[weenie]

Another fun thing you coul do is make feats, that give characters various special qualities, similar to the vow of poverty, but less powerfull. Either that, or grant them some as class abilities. Or heck, maybe even as character traits.

[BrainFreeze]

You could require the caster to make a Will save of 10+Spell level inorder for the spell to actually go off. Failure causes loss of the spell/spell slot for the day and rolling a 1 causes ability damage equal to the spell level.

[Riffington]

True.
That reminds me of the "Ars Magica" game system, where there was a built in major difference between mages and other players. That setting sure doesn't fit all players.

Actually, in Ars Magica, *everyone* plays a wizard. (and because of the troupe-play style, some nonwizards too, for changes of pace).
So there isn't that kind of balance issue in that system... everyone knows that the meatshields protecting the wizards are the minor characters in the story, and that works just fine.

For regular D&D campaigns, if you reduce the number of magic items around, you do things like
*play at low levels
*allow mundane items to have better properties (this blade of astonishing Dwarven craftsmanship gives +3 to hit and damage)
*What few magic items do exist find their way into the players' hands.

[rawmutton]

Midnight is a really neat low-magic setting. Combat is a bit befed up, and casting is nerfed. The magic system in it is actually really cool (feat-based spontaeous casting, with magic points) and casters can multiclass without the ridiculous loss in casting ability.

There are a lot of combat rules in Unearthed Arcana that would make low-magic easier. "Wound Points" and "Defense Bonus" come to mind. If I were to use these rules, I'd change them in the following way:

Wound Points: I'd let the Toughness Feat add +3 to wound points. Sneak attacks and spell damage (i.e. a ray that had a critical hit) would do 1 point of wounding per die. The Improved Critical Feat would increase crit. range by one, as would the Keen Edge spell/weapon quality. These effects would stack.

Defense Bonus: Half the character's Base Attack Bonus becomes an Insight Bonus to AC, limited by the Max AC bonus of whatever armor the character is wearing.

Additionally, I'd allow the Heal skill to heal additional damage/ day of rest with higher DCs.

[Neb]

If you want to reduce magic's influence on the combat part of the game without giving up "high" fantasy, you could just make casting time for all spells 10x longer. This relegates spell casting to behind the scenes, putting more emphasis on fighters and rogues

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you want to reduce magic's influence on the combat part of the game without giving up "high" fantasy, you could just make casting time for all spells 10x longer. This relegates spell casting to behind the scenes, putting more emphasis on fighters and roguesAnd with this nerf, like any other, you would never see a PC caster. At all. Maybe a Bard, but no one in their right mind would ever play a caster.

Though Artificers are even more broken, now that I think about it.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Somewhat ironically, getting rid of core casters and using only the Tome of Magic for mystical purposes might actually wind up feeling lower-magic than a normal game. They are much less powerful than core casters, and the flavor of classes such as the binder attach a more negative stigma to magic in general. It could work, but you'd probably have to try and keep magic items relatively the same. Maybe include warlocks and say they make all the items...

[Chronicled]

Somewhat ironically, getting rid of core casters and using only the Tome of Magic for mystical purposes might actually wind up feeling lower-magic than a normal game. They are much less powerful than core casters, and the flavor of classes such as the binder attach a more negative stigma to magic in general. It could work, but you'd probably have to try and keep magic items relatively the same. Maybe include warlocks and say they make all the items...

You can't really use the Truenamer (it's either terribly weak or too effective, usually the former), but otherwise this coudl work pretty well.

[Draz74]

You can't really use the Truenamer (it's either terribly weak or too effective, usually the former), but otherwise this coudl work pretty well.

Nah, the Truenamer can work. (At low levels, before the CR scaling becomes too ridiculous.) It will be weak, but then, so is the Shadowcaster!

[CockroachTeaParty]

Or, for a low magic game you could switch to psionics or incarnum!

:smallbiggrin:

[Morandir Nailo]

That's pretty much what I have going for the homebrew game I'm putting together. I've dropped all Vancian spellcasting classes and only use Binders, Incarnum, and Warlocks. Magic items are rare; there are no items which just give a numerical bonus (see exception below).

To balance things out, characters get 2 free traits from Iron Heroes at character creation, a feat every odd level, and 2 stat raises every 3 levels (where feats normally go). In addition I have special materials for every weapon type (each one adds +1 damage to the appropriate type), plus Dire weapons, which add an additional +2 damage. So for instance a Masterwork Dire Byeshk Warhammer would be +1 to hit, +3 damage and would cost a royal crap-ton of GP; this is the best, numerically, that a weapon can get. I also encourage the use of ToB for melee types. In addition, make extensive use of alchemical items. There are a ton of useful ones spread out amongst the various splatbooks.

As others have said, DnD really doesn't support this kind of gaming without massive houseruling, but with careful DM attention, it can be done. Gotta watch out for those monsters though...

Mor

[Iron_Mouse]

You can also use the Sanity System (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) (or a variant of it), but use it so that only spellcasting makes you lose sanity.