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View Full Version : Newbie Warlock, a question and maybe a little advice?



AwfulLawful
2008-05-14, 01:57 PM
I'm playing a warlock for the first time and was wondering, if I score a critical hit while using the Hideous Blow do i get to multiply the eldritch blast damage as well as the weapon damage?

Then I could use some good advice :smallsmile: Are there any must have warlock feats out there? Point blank shot and precise shot seems quite obvious, but what else? Maybe weapon finesse to get better use of my hideous blow? (I'm using a rapier) even though I'd much rather stay out of combat...

Hope you'll help me

thanks

AwfulLawful

Hunter Noventa
2008-05-14, 02:04 PM
No, bonus damage like that is never multiplied by criticals, so only the damage of your melee weapon is multiplied.

As a side note, Hideous Blow, well, blows. I would highly Suggest Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic if available.

Pironious
2008-05-14, 10:11 PM
Warlock feats are often best used on an investment set. Something like Heritage feats, or luck feats, that gives you more bang for your buck the more you pick up, because there aren't a lot of good feats for warlocks.

Extra Invocation is nice too.

And yeah, if you want to be a melee warlock, go for Eldritch glaive, otherwise stay out of melee.

monty
2008-05-14, 10:21 PM
Let's compare Hideous Blow to Eldritch Glaive

HB = Weapon attack
EG = Touch attack
Winner: EG

HB = Full-action single attack
EG = Full attack
Winner: EG

HB = No reach, unless using a reach weapon
EG = 10 ft reach (can't hit adjacent opponents, but unless you're a masochist you don't want AoO's anyway; just take a 5-foot step first)
Winner: EG

HB = Eldritch Blast + Weapon
EG = Eldritch Blast x Number of attacks
Winner: HB until you get your first iterative attack, at which point EG beats the crap out of it even more.

Did I forget anything? Even with just that, I think the decision is easy.

Bob the Urgh
2008-05-14, 10:46 PM
Quicken spell-like ability, extra invocation, spell penetration, various item creation feats. Go for point blank shot just to get precise shot. Make sure to put skill points into use magic device for the imbue item ability if you plan on taking item creation feats.


EDIT: There is also combat casting.

Drammel
2008-05-15, 12:12 AM
AwfulLawful, would I be right in assuming your name indicates you'll be playing Lawful Evil? If so, you might want to check out Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Look at the Mark of Nessus feat. The upshot of it is that in order for someone to attack you they have to make a Will save based on 10+ 1/2 your HD + your CHA mod. If they fail they must choose another target. Pretty good if you consider boosting CHA for your invocations.

The drawback is that you have to take the Brand of the Nine Hells (Asomdeus) feat. It's not a bad feat in of itself it's just that (litterally in the text of the feat) it's unavialible to player characters unless a DM rules otherwise. However, since most DMs like you to run your feat choices by them anyway you might want to give it a shot.

Tyrants of the Nine Hells also has some other feats worth looking at for the Lawful Evil crowd. The Hellfire Warlock presitege class is definatly worth at a look too.

Chronicled
2008-05-15, 01:00 AM
Tyrants of the Nine Hells also has some other feats worth looking at for the Lawful Evil crowd. The Hellfire Warlock presitege class is definatly worth at a look too.

And if you don't have FC2, you can get all the rules (legally) for the Hellfire Warlock right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3).

Griffin131
2008-05-15, 07:09 AM
Its worth taking two levels of Chameleon for the floating feat if youre going to do much/any crafting.

sonofzeal
2008-05-15, 08:02 AM
No, bonus damage like that is never multiplied by criticals, so only the damage of your melee weapon is multiplied.
Just a note - Eldritch Blast by itself is fully capable of critting (along the same principal of a "weapon-like spell"). I don't see why any DM would bar it from critting just because you're chanelling it through a melee weapon.

Burley
2008-05-15, 08:48 AM
Did I forget anything? Even with just that, I think the decision is easy.

Don't forget that your Eldritch Glaive can be finessed (weapon finesse), as it's a touch spell. That means you would have the same attack bonuses for ranged and melee, and you wouldn't need to work around MAD. HB doesn't always give you that, and if you're wanting to be a Melee-Lock, the best weapons (other than spike chain, which sucks cause I hate them :smallfurious:) can't be finessed. Well...rather than the Elven Courtblade.
Whatever...Weapon Finesse. It's a useful bloody feat. Get it, and Eldrtich Glaive and laugh as the puny ones try to defy you. Add in Fell Flight to hover above their heads as you mangle their faces.

Also, when you use Hideous Blow, you're (technically) adding weapon damage to your Eldritch Blast. The Invocation would take precidence, since the action you're taking is an invocation, and not an attack action. So, if you crit, you'd multiple your Eldritch Blast damage by 2, but your weapon damage isn't increased. Also, your Critical Threat Range isn't that of your weapon, but that of your EB, which is a natural 20.
*Please note that the above is my ruling on it, so, it is subject to DM approval and peer scrutiny. Your DM may allow you to use the best of both worlds. However, I feel that my way is the best and shall use it forever.

No matter what the rules on Hideous Blow are, you should still swap that invocation for Eldritch Glaive at your earliest opportunity (i.e. whenever you get your first Lesser Invocation.)

Have fun with your Warlock. They're bloody great!

Bayar
2008-05-15, 08:54 AM
Just a note - Eldritch Blast by itself is fully capable of critting (along the same principal of a "weapon-like spell"). I don't see why any DM would bar it from critting just because you're chanelling it through a melee weapon.

In this case, it is like using Sneak attack, so it doesnt apply.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-15, 10:08 AM
In this case, it is like using Sneak attack, so it doesnt apply.

Yet another reason why Hideous Blow should never be taken as it is written. Almost any other use of eldritch blast would be entitled to a critical on it's full damage, but HB is the only one that's a little vague. Though I do agree with Burley Warlock's ruling, the invocation text itself states that the weapon damage is additional damage, and that the attack itself deals Eldritch blast damage.

Hideous Blow is almost as bad as that Magic of Incarnum Invocation that *might* drain a single point of Wisdom/Essentia, but allows a save first.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-05-15, 10:45 AM
My DM won't let anybody in the party play a warlock. He seems to think that they are horrendously broken and much better than wizards. Of course, my gaming group thinks that blaster is the normal and proper way to run a wizard. They have not witnessed the power of batman.

Burley
2008-05-15, 10:50 AM
Yet another reason why Hideous Blow should never be taken as it is written. Almost any other use of eldritch blast would be entitled to a critical on it's full damage, but HB is the only one that's a little vague. Though I do agree with Burley Warlock's ruling, the invocation text itself states that the weapon damage is additional damage, and that the attack itself deals Eldritch blast damage.

You have no idea how much I love when people agree with me. I just pull this stuff outta nowhere and source books. It's madness. :smalleek: Also...it's Sparta. (I'm bringin' it back.)


Hideous Blow is almost as bad as that Magic of Incarnum Invocation that *might* drain a single point of Wisdom/Essentia, but allows a save first.

I would just like to point out: Hideous Blow is almost as bad as Magic of Incarnum. Not just the invocation...the whole book. :yuk:

Chronos
2008-05-15, 12:44 PM
I would just like to point out: Hideous Blow is almost as bad as Magic of Incarnum. Not just the invocation...the whole book.Eh, Incarnates and Soulborns suck, but Totemist is about on a par with Fighter (in that you'd never take the class all the way through, but a two-level dip helps several builds). And the Shape Soulmeld feat can be useful for non-Incarnum characters. Oh, and a couple of the blue feats are strictly superior to the feats they replace, but that's not too tough.

AwfulLawful
2008-05-15, 01:14 PM
Thanks

Didn't know about eldritch glaive, but from what you tell me its clearly superior to the hideous blow. I'll ask my DM if he'll let me swap them :smallsmile:

AwfulLawful

(My warlock isn't lawful/evil but N/E, my name is from another character I played a long time ago :smallsmile:)

Bauglir
2008-05-15, 01:24 PM
Hideous Blow is almost as bad as that Magic of Incarnum Invocation that *might* drain a single point of Wisdom/Essentia, but allows a save first.

Nah, Hideous Blow is worse. At least that invocation doesn't actively hurt you by its use; Hideous Blow incurs an AoO.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-15, 01:42 PM
Eh, Incarnates and Soulborns suck, but Totemist is about on a par with Fighter (in that you'd never take the class all the way through, but a two-level dip helps several builds). And the Shape Soulmeld feat can be useful for non-Incarnum characters. Oh, and a couple of the blue feats are strictly superior to the feats they replace, but that's not too tough.

Not to derail the thread, but Incarnates can do some horrible damage and other bonus stacking, while Pauper of Smack Totemist builds are nasty.

Also, on the subject of Incarnum + Warlocks - Strongheart Vest + Hellfire Warlock. Win.

Burley
2008-05-15, 02:20 PM
Not so much win...
Strongheart Vest protects you against Con damage dealt to you. Hellfire Warlock sacrifices the Con points. I don't have the books with me, but the different wording between the two don't mesh.

Also, as much as I HATE HATE HATE the Sage... The Sage says "Strongheart Vest doesn't work that way..."

I feel dirty for quoting him. I need to find a cleric of a Chaotic Good Diety and be Atone.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-15, 02:25 PM
Not so much win...
Strongheart Vest protects you against Con damage dealt to you. Hellfire Warlock sacrifices the Con points. I don't have the books with me, but the different wording between the two don't mesh.

Also, as much as I HATE HATE HATE the Sage... The Sage says "Strongheart Vest doesn't work that way..."

I feel dirty for quoting him. I need to find a cleric of a Chaotic Good Diety and be Atone.

The Sage's ruling almost makes one go the other way. Seriously, it's coming close to the point that flipping a coin could make better rulings.

Also, the 'doesn't function if you're immune to Con damage clause doesn't come in here'; you're no more immune to Con damage than you would be immune to physical damage having DR 1/-.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-15, 02:57 PM
Using Strongheart Vest means you're using the energy of the souls throughout the universe to pay life force to the powers behind Hellfire so you don't have to injure your precious mortal body. It doesn't get any more sinister Warlock flavored than that. I understand if you were immune to Constitution damage (i.e. undead, an unliving construct, etc.) that you would not be able to use Hellfire, but the living warlock does make a sacrifice to the powers of hell, he/she just uses other souls to shield his own life force (which costs him/her a Feat).

Chronos
2008-05-15, 04:18 PM
It is at least fair to point out that there's some debate over whether Strongheart Vest works with Hellfire, and your DM might rule one way or the other. And of course, if your DM says that the Vest doesn't work that way, then it doesn't, and there's not much you can do about it (short of copious amounts of pizza and beer).

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-15, 07:19 PM
Also, increasing your attack bonus with feats or magic items is not always very optimal: because warlocks rely on touch attacks, which don't scale with CR very much a warlock will very quickly find that they have a BAB high enough to hit reliably without any need for bonuses of any kind.

Morandir Nailo
2008-05-16, 01:16 AM
Don't bother with the Strongheart Vest, as it's too controversial; take a single level of Binder instead, and bind Naberius every day. With Naberius bound, you heal 1 point of ability damage every round. This gets around the immunity clause, as you actually do take the damage; you just heal it at the end of the round. With this, Hellfire Warlock is a must-take PrC.

Also, take a look at the Mortalbane feat from BoVD, as it works great with your Eldritch Blast. And be sure to ask your DM if he'll allow you to use Power Attack with an Eldritch Glaive. Two-handed Power Attack + touch attacks = win.

Mor

Chronos
2008-05-16, 01:23 AM
Be warned, though, that with only a single level of Binder, you'll often fail your binding check, which means that you'll be required to talk constantly, and act like an Internet troll whenever you encounter a public forum.

Burley
2008-05-16, 08:21 AM
Just stay away from the Hellfire Warlock in my opinion. Sure, it deals a lot of power, and it may it into your concept, but if you find ANY way (other than wands of lesser restoration) to get around the damage, you have been stamped as cheesy.


Buy a the Greater Chausible of Edritch Blow-em-up and be done with it. If you play your character the way the Hellfire Warlock fluff suggests, your party isn't gonna want you around much.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-16, 09:52 AM
Even if the Naberius bind and Strongheart Vest soulmeld are disallowed, there's an item in the MIC called 'Rod of Bodily Restoration' that can heal 4 points of physical ability damage up to 5 times a day. It only costs 3,100 gp, so it shouldn't be a big deal to have several if you expect to do some serious Hellfire blasting.

If you have an issue with the fluff, ask the DM if you can change it. Perhaps you get your power from the Feywild, for example, and your elven warlock has learned how to sacrifice his life-force into Soulfire. Soulfire has properties identical to Hellfire and requires the same Constitution damaging drawback. Thus, it's saved until the warlock really needs an ace in the hole.