First Time Gestalt

[FatherMalkav]

Ok, so I got invited to a friends game, currently running at level four and had an idea for a Apostle of Peace build. The he told me it was a gestalt game, and I've never played one. My question was:what would be a good match with cleric? The party is lacking an arcane caster so I was thinking sorc/cleric, but I wasn't sure. This is what I have so far.

NG Level 4 Human Cleric of Phearen(sp? Martyer god from BoED)
Domains: Good/Endurence - open to change.
Str 10
DeX 12
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 17

Feats
Sacred Vow (Char Creation)
Vow of Poverty (Human Bonus)
Vow of Non-Violence (2nd lvl VoP)
Vow of Peace (3rd)
_________(open to ideas)

The stats are a 36 pt buy, 17 & 18 cost 2, then the lvl 4 point.
Human only game (his own personal world)

[SamTheCleric]

I'd like to throw in a vote for a Bard 2/Marshal 2 on the other side. You will be the ultimate support piece with your spells, bardic music and marshal auras.

[Mr. Friendly]

Ok, so I got invited to a friends game, currently running at level four and had an idea for a Apostle of Peace build. The he told me it was a gestalt game, and I've never played one. My question was:what would be a good match with cleric? The party is lacking an arcane caster so I was thinking sorc/cleric, but I wasn't sure. This is what I have so far.

NG Level 4 Human Cleric of Phearen(sp? Martyer god from BoED)
Domains: Good/Endurence - open to change.
Str 10
DeX 12
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 17

Feats
Sacred Vow (Char Creation)
Vow of Poverty (Human Bonus)
Vow of Non-Violence (2nd lvl VoP)
Vow of Peace (3rd)
_________(open to ideas)

The stats are a 36 pt buy, 17 & 18 cost 2, then the lvl 4 point.
Human only game (his own personal world)

Hrrm, well given what you are going for, I would say go with Monk. That will give you more AC and better saves; as well as several useful abilities over time. Going with the grappling version will give you a good chance to grapple your way out of some situations and save your skin.

Not sure what books are available to you, but in either Races of the Dragon or Dragon magic, there is an Alternate Class Feature that lets you give up your ability to wear Heavy Armor in exchange for "Dragonscale" carapaces that you grow.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Depends. If you want to go CoDzilla, anything with full BAB is a good idea, especially a Crusader or Paladin, though the Fighter template can help with feats. Gestalt tends to do best with one side passive and the other active. That means, your actions should come from one side, but should be benefitted by the other. If you don't want CoDzilla, a Cleric//Monk can survive a lot, or Cleric//Bard for buffing your party into oblivion.

Also, why aren't you taking Nymph's Kiss with your first-level exalted feat, and then using Exalted Feats for VoNV and VoPe? You have Exalted feats coming out your ears, don't waste real slots on more.

Edit: Ninja'd

[FatherMalkav]

Not sure what books are available to you, but in either Races of the Dragon or Dragon magic, there is an Alternate Class Feature that lets you give up your ability to wear Heavy Armor in exchange for "Dragonscale" carapaces that you grow.

I have access to PHB, DMG, BoED, Comp Scound/war/champ, UA and I'm sure I can scrape together a few more from friends of their not rare.

I already have a hude AC due to Vow of Poverty. Here's another question though it'll probably come down to DM: My vows basically say I can;t cause harm to any living creature, but I can lay the smackdown on Construct/Undead. Would it be out of character to try and speak to intelligent undead to turn them from the path of evil? I mean I need 10 ranks in Diplomacy to get Apostle of Peace anyway and from the feats I get huge bonuses.


Monk may work. Then I could get Touch of Golden Ice and actually use it.

[Chronos]

Also, why aren't you taking Nymph's Kiss with your first-level exalted feat,Maybe because he doesn't have a hot girlfriend, like the feat requires?

And while you certainly don't have to, I don't see any conflict with an Apostle of Peace trying to peacefully redeem a vampire or something. Sure, it's probably hopeless, but dreaming the impossible dream is part of what being an exalted character is about.

[monty]

Why don't you make Vow of Peace your 4th level bonus feat and take a real feat at 3rd?

Also, you have an exalted bonus feat at first level; take Nymph's Kiss if your DM allows it.

[Frosty]

Can you take Vow of Chastity and Nymph's Kiss both?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Can you take Vow of Chastity and Nymph's Kiss both?Technically, "intimate" is never defined. For that matter, you can take both Nymph's Kiss and Lichloved if you're good with a background. I plan to do that someday. :smallbiggrin:

[Frosty]

What exactly is Lichloved?

[Chronos]

What exactly is Lichloved?It's the evil equivalent of Nymph's Kiss. That and the name should tell you all you need to know.

[Frosty]

But then you can't take Nymph's Kiss, since you're Evil.

[CactusAir]

It's the evil equivalent of Nymph's Kiss. That and the name should tell you all you need to know.

EEEEEEEEEW..... necrophilia.

What's with all the vows? Vow of Poverty does NOT go well with Cleric. Equipment is useful. And Vow of Non-violence gives you DC boost, IIRC, which isn't very helpful if you want to be a buffer.

The only class that seems to at all work with VoP is Druid.

[The Sandman]

What exactly is Lichloved?

It involves something that Xykon wouldn't enjoy, but Tsukiko and disgusting biophiliacs would.

After the deed is done, mindless undead see you as one of them.

[Jack_Simth]

Ok, so I got invited to a friends game, currently running at level four and had an idea for a Apostle of Peace build. The he told me it was a gestalt game, and I've never played one. My question was:what would be a good match with cleric? The party is lacking an arcane caster so I was thinking sorc/cleric, but I wasn't sure. This is what I have so far.

NG Level 4 Human Cleric of Phearen(sp? Martyer god from BoED)
Domains: Good/Endurence - open to change.
Str 10
DeX 12
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 18
Cha 17

Feats
Sacred Vow (Char Creation)
Vow of Poverty (Human Bonus)
Vow of Non-Violence (2nd lvl VoP)
Vow of Peace (3rd)
_________(open to ideas)

The stats are a 36 pt buy, 17 & 18 cost 2, then the lvl 4 point.
Human only game (his own personal world)
If you're hung up on Aposle of Peace, okay. But do consider your fellow players before going that route - the Vow of Nonviolence can put a very significant damper on everyone else's fun, especially if they enjoy taking down opponents. I would advise against it for most groups on that basis. Know your group well BEFORE taking the Vow of Nonviolence. Vow of Poverty mostly only limits you, and is thus not nearly so bad.

Ignoring that bit, a couple of things to remember when making a Gestalt character:

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD.
A Sorcerer//Cleric, while it may look good on paper, has two primary casting stats. It'll eat into your resources to keep them both up. Mind you, on a 36 point buy, with the last two points costing 2 each, rather than 3 each as standard, this isn't as much of an issue - but it's still there. Once you hit Wildshape, a Druid//Ninja needs just two stats: Wisdom and Con. With your point-buy, you could have 18's in both, and have 8 points left over for the other four stats. Perhaps a Dex of 14 for the low-level AC, or just put 10's in each so that you don't have any proper dump stats.
2) Avoid combinations that negate each other's abilities; try to find things that complement each other. Sure, the Fighter/Wizard looks decent... but either the Wizard isn't using the Fighter's armor, or the Fighter can't use most of the Wizard's spells effectively. You want to maximize your class features, not minimize them. The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, has an interesting effect once he gets wildshape: As a Ninja, he can't wear armor. As a Druid, he can't wear good armor, but has nifty ways to increase unarmored AC. As a Ninja, he gets a Wisdom to AC when unarmored - which still applies in Wild Shape ... and Wild Shape gets rid of the need for physical stats besides Con.
3) Be aware of power curves. At 1st, the Barbarian is one of the most powerful classes. At 20th, the Wizard rules the roost. For long term balance, you'll want something that's good at low-levels on one side, and something that's good at high levels on the other (a Full Caster).
4) Don't neglect HP, BAB, and Saves. With a Gestalt character, you should have, at a minimum, a d8 hit die, two good saves, and 3/4th's BAB. You can generally up any two of those by a step while still keeping a Full Caster on one side, just by picking the right complementary class.
5) Conservation of actions. You still only get one standard, one move, and one Swift action per round. You want to have one side do the "active" stuff in combat (whether that's attacking with your sword or casting spells), and the other do the "passive" stuff in combat (HP, saves, AC, long-duration buff spells, no-action add-ons to attacks, and so on) because otherwise you'll have too many things you want to be doing at the same time. Pick one role as your "Primary", and pick another as the "secondary" in support of that.


Technically, "intimate" is never defined. Yes, they could do each other's hair and talk about boys. Intimacy and physical relations are oft confused, but very much not the same thing.

[monty]

EEEEEEEEEW..... necrophilia.

What's with all the vows? Vow of Poverty does NOT go well with Cleric. Equipment is useful. And Vow of Non-violence gives you DC boost, IIRC, which isn't very helpful if you want to be a buffer.

The only class that seems to at all work with VoP is Druid.

Really, anything goes well with druid, seeing as you can probably win a lot of CR-appropriate encounters by yourself naked with one feat, so that really doesn't mean much.

As for your first point, I disagree. I've played a VoP cleric twice, and both times it was fairly effective. If you build it right and avoid your weaknesses (or capitalize on them - for example, use the Cloistered Cleric variant since you won't be wearing armor or doing much attacking anyway; all you really lose is 1 hp per level average), it is comparable to and in some situations better than standard WBL. At higher levels, at least, the bonuses make up for a lot of what you lose in magic items - total +20 to stats, +lots to AC, continuous true seeing, immunity to mind stuff, etc.

Vow of Nonviolence/Peace isn't a problem either, as long as your party is willing to work with you. There are plenty of ways to win without killing something, and if your DM lets you work with the technicalities, you can still contribute significantly even if your allies are killing things (for example, you can buff them beforehand, and you can heal in combat - you just can't "aid your allies in killing" anything).

[Frosty]

So can you technically have both Nymhp's Kiss and Lichloved? Where can I find Lichloved?

[Jack_Simth]

you can still contribute significantly even if your allies are killing things (for example, you can buff them beforehand, and you can heal in combat - you just can't "aid your allies in killing" anything).
If your allies are killing things, they start taking penalties; -1 on attacks for each critter killed (max your character level), penalty expires one hour after the last thing killed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm... I'd personally vote for Bard to pair with Cleric if you're going for Apostle of Peace. It has the skill ranks you need for your other stuff, a bunch of disabling stuff (with DC's jacked up from your vows), and the ability to buff the whole party.

[monty]

If your allies are killing things, they start taking penalties; -1 on attacks for each critter killed (max your character level), penalty expires one hour after the last thing killed.

I thought that was a penalty from Vow of Nonviolence that specifically applies to killing helpless enemies.

[Chronicled]

Where can I find Lichloved?

Libris Mortis.

[Reel On, Love]

Where can I find Lichloved?

Hanging out at the cemetary, dressed like prostitutes.

[Xuincherguixe]

Psychic Warrior has Wisdom Synergy, and seems like it could be a lot of fun.

[Jack_Simth]

I thought that was a penalty from Vow of Nonviolence that specifically applies to killing helpless enemies.
Ah, you're right - it does say helpless or defenseless in there - good.