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Admiral Squish
2008-05-16, 12:31 AM
Out of curiosity, is there a number of attacks that would make two-weapon fighting viable as an alternative to two-handed fighting? I ask, because rule of cool is seriously making me consider a dolgrim warrior quadruple-wielding longswords. Also, with the two 'primary' hands dolgrim get, does that mean two attacks on a standard action? And, finally, does quick draw work both ways, drawing and sheathing?

The Necroswanso
2008-05-16, 12:34 AM
Are you talking about attacking with four hands? IE: Multiweapon fighting feat?

And to my knowledge regardless of how many primary hands you have, (see: Monk's Unarmed Strike) attacking more than once is always a full attack action. More primary hands just means more damage.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-16, 12:37 AM
The feat you're looking for is Multi-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiweaponFighting). I'm sure there's a point where it's viable, but I just don't know when without bonus damage.

Dallas-Dakota
2008-05-16, 12:39 AM
Out of curiosity, is there a number of attacks that would make two-weapon fighting viable as an alternative to two-handed fighting? I ask, because rule of cool is seriously making me consider a dolgrim warrior quadruple-wielding longswords. Also, with the two 'primary' hands dolgrim get, does that mean two attacks on a standard action? And, finally, does quick draw work both ways, drawing and sheathing?

Quadruple-wielding is only available to mutated beings and monkeys and monkey-like beings.

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-16, 12:42 AM
I suspect there might be some potential to this with Psychic Warrior. There are some powers that let you add extra damage to your weapons. The problem here is that it would take several actions on them all. Medium BAB is also a problem, but that can be fixed by going into Slayer.

Admiral Squish
2008-05-16, 12:57 AM
Yes, I know all about the multiweapon fighting chain. That's what's written on the sheet, anyway. You know, now that I think about it, are there multiweapon equivalents to the rest of the two-weapon feats? I.E, multiweapon defense, multiweapon rend, multiweapon pounce, Oversized multiweapon fighting, etc, etc, etc?

And Dallas? Dolgrim pretty much are mutated little freaks of nature.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-16, 02:06 AM
You know what's fun?
Get Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Get two dancing swords.
Get two other, similar swords.
Get two Gloves of Storing.
Store a mundane sword in one Glove and a Dancing Sword in the other. Sheathe thee other two swords.
When combat starts, draw a mundane sword from it's sheath and a Dancing Sword from a Glove, and command it to Dance.
Next round, draw the other Dancing Sword and make it Dance, then draw your other mundane sword from it's sheath.
Now you're a maelstrom of whirling death, and you only need two hands and two rounds for it.

For clarity, can a Dancing Sword attack on the round it's loosed? And does it use the PC's actions to attack? Because the way we play, it's yes and no, respectively, but I'm not sure how correct that is.

ZeroNumerous
2008-05-16, 02:11 AM
Quadruple-wielding is only available to mutated beings and monkeys and monkey-like beings.

And Thri-Keen.

On 2H VS 2W: No. It never becomes 'better' to have Two-Weapon Fighting(or Multi-Weapon Fighting) over an ubercharger capable of dealing a thousand points of damage or more.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-16, 02:30 AM
And Thri-Keen.

On 2H VS 2W: No. It never becomes 'better' to have Two-Weapon Fighting(or Multi-Weapon Fighting) over an ubercharger capable of dealing a thousand points of damage or more.

Unless you have obscene amounts of bonus damage. A Rogue that takes a few PrCs that give +1d6 Sneak Attack at 1st level can get +12d6 or more Sneak Attack at 20th level. Add in Craven (adds your character level to sneak attack damage) and a bunch of weapon enchantments that each add 1 or 2 d6s of damage (flaming, frost, shock, holy, etc.), and you can do lot of damage per attack. Extra attacks, obviously, makes this a lot stronger. No, it can't get to the same level of ridiculousness as a charge build with Pounce, but it can be very powerful.

Basically, if Shock Trooper and all ways of getting Pounce are unavailable, the two-weapon fighter may be able to keep up. If not, there's no way.

@V: Shock Trooper lets you take the Power Attack to-hit penalty to your AC instead. Therefore, you can power attack for full without reducing your chances of hitting. Since having a big penalty to your armor isn't a problem if everything around you is dead, it pretty much lets you power attack for full for free.

Admiral Squish
2008-05-16, 03:26 AM
Hmm... Wait a sec. Leap attack doubles PA for anything but a two-hander, and triples for a two-hander. With Two-weapon pounce, you'd be eating another -2 penalty, but you'd get 4x the PA. Then bonus attacks from improved two-weapon, greater two-weapon, all that, and the damage applies to them all. Are we approaching competitive now? And with four arms, it's x8.

Forgive me, I don't really know what shock trooper does, so ignore this if shock trooper completely negates this idea.

tyckspoon
2008-05-16, 03:29 AM
Yes, I know all about the multiweapon fighting chain. That's what's written on the sheet, anyway. You know, now that I think about it, are there multiweapon equivalents to the rest of the two-weapon feats? I.E, multiweapon defense, multiweapon rend, multiweapon pounce, Oversized multiweapon fighting, etc, etc, etc?


Written? No, but they're the easiest things in the world to homebrew. It's almost never more than a search-replace of things like 'off-hand weapon' with 'all your off-hand weapons.'

Justyn
2008-05-16, 03:48 AM
And Thri-Keen.
The Insectile Template has six arms, unless you insist on a very literal interpretation of the rules as they are written.


On 2H VS 2W: No. It never becomes 'better' to have Two-Weapon Fighting(or Multi-Weapon Fighting) over an übercharger capable of dealing a thousand points of damage or more.

Not everyone plays the game to deal out 1337 damage. And some DMs are not too fond of overuse of curdled dairy products.

Ecalsneerg
2008-05-16, 05:56 AM
Not everyone plays the game to deal out 1337 damage. And some DMs are not too fond of overuse of curdled dairy products.

Ok, let's even assume you're not really optimising. The 2HF beats the 2-4WF hands down.

SoD
2008-05-16, 06:50 AM
And Thri-Keen.

And Chitines. Chitines actually get multiweapon fighting as a bonus feat.

I've always wanted to play a Thrikeen with 4 two-bladed swords. Just 'cos it'd look so cool.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-16, 06:52 AM
You mean, two two bladed swords. It requires two hands to wield one of them.

Moak
2008-05-16, 07:21 AM
Ok, let's even assume you're not really optimising. The 2HF beats the 2-4WF hands down.
:smallconfused:

2HF > 2WF

I don't know if 4WF>2HF...but I think that

4HF>4WF

I think that,speaking of 4 creature with 4 arms,they will probably wield the 2H weapon with 4 arms (adding 2.5 STR modifier IIRC)...

Sure,4WF is badass...but I think that 2WF with double weapons is even MORE badass...ore 2-wielding Greatsword...:smallsmile:

I love Thri-keen and their Gythka. Or insectile 3-kreen

A question: a creature with 4 arms,can use 2 bows? or 4 crossbows?

Duke of URL
2008-05-16, 08:10 AM
You mean, two two bladed swords. It requires two hands to wield one of them.

Well, there's always the abomination of Monkey Grip + Oversized TWF (modified for MWF)

Wouldn't be the most efficient thing out there, but it would look pretty scary (to anyone who didn't know better).

AmberVael
2008-05-16, 08:15 AM
Brief, rough example to show what's better, and why.

Two handed weapon (we'll just say it's a greatsword):

2d6 + (1.5 * strength mod) + power attack penalty x 2 + extra weapon bonuses.

Two weapon fighting (we'll say, for simplicity, two short swords)

1d6 + strength mod + power attack penalty + extra weapon bonuses
1d6 + (.5 * strength mod) + power attack penalty + extra weapon bonuses


Now, we can see that, without taking anything other than damage into account (which is like suspending reality over a tub of lava) theoretically Two Weapon Fighting is minorly, marginally, better.
However...
You need to add in that you need the Two-Weapon fighting feat to do the above.
And that you get a -2 penalty to each attack.
And that you generally need a full attack to attack with both weapons (otherwise you need to spend a feat to ignore that).


Now something that people often bandy about is "You have to enchant two weapons." This, as odd as it may seem, is actually one of the benefits of two weapon fighting. You're probably going "whaaaa? You need to enchant them both, that means it costs more, right?"
Technically. Let me pull up the facts.

The point of having two weapons is that you, indeed, have two weapons. So when you attack, you get to deal damage with both, yes?
Thus, what makes it better to have both weapons in terms of enchantment bonuses alone is that you get the enchantment bonuses of two swords as opposed to the two-handed fighter's one.

This makes it more cost effective to deal more enhancement damage for a two weapon fighter, because the magic item pricing gets exponentially more expensive the higher of an enchantment you get.
For example: you can get a +5 and a +6 worth of a enchantments on two swords for almost the same price (actually a little less) as a single sword with +8 worth of enchantments.
Alternately, if lower level, you can get two +2 swords for less cost than a single +3 sword.
Etc.
Granted, this doesn't make two weapon fighting more viable and efficient overall than two handed fighting, but I did want to dispel that little myth. Generally, if you're smart and clever with your enchantment choices, you'll be able to get more out of two weapons than out of one weapon in terms of magic items alone.

However... the point of all this is certainly that 4 weapon fighting is going to be much more potent than using a single two handed weapon fighting. It's practically just multiplication. Sure you might miss a little bit more, but you have four chances to hit, and even if only two or three hit, you're dealing more damage than the single two hander.
Still, as its more feat intensive to do multi weapon fighting, so I might advise taking a class such as *gasp* fighter. At least for a few levels.


Presumably two two handers would similarly be more viable than four single handed weapons (just because, again, it's like the above formulas, except twice), but I don't feel like really looking into the math.

@ Duke:
To quote:

A creature wielding a two-bladed sword in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
So just use a long sword. =P

Duke of URL
2008-05-16, 08:23 AM
So just use a long sword. =P

Should still be able to do MG + OMWF with greatswords. Now, why you'd want to do that is another story.

Oh, and the T/MWF guy typically isn't power attacking, because he's using light weapons in the off hand(s), unless he took OT/MWF

Chronos
2008-05-16, 02:12 PM
A single big weapon also pulls ahead of multiple weapons as soon as you get iterative attacks. At first level, the two-sword guy gets two attacks each at 1d6, to the greatsword guy's one attack at 2d6, but at 6th level, the two-sword guy gets three attacks at 1d6, while the greatsword guy gets two attacks at 2d6. If the two-sword guy wants to keep up, he has to pour in yet more feats to get extra attacks with his other weapon, too.

On the subject of ubercharging, though, remember that Pounce will help both builds, and with enough hands or natural weapons, helps the multiarmed mutant freak of nature monkey more than the greatsworder. A thri-kreen totemist 2/rogue 10/warblade 7 with the right feats could charge with 16 attacks, each of them dealing 5d6+20 sneak attack damage, and I could probably optimize that further, except that I'm away from my books at the moment.

Paul H
2008-05-17, 07:11 PM
Hi

Just a thought on a similar vein. What about Druids with Pounce feat wearing Rhino Hide armour? In Dire Ape form casts Girallon's Blessing & charges. Good chance of rend, plus extra 2D6 dam with each hit. (Plus any other bonus).

Even worse with Master Many Forms in Troll Form.

As I said - just a thought

Cheers
Paul H

Silent Musician
2008-05-17, 07:17 PM
I want to wield three swords. Two in my hands and one in my mouth...

Collin152
2008-05-17, 08:01 PM
I want to wield three swords. Two in my hands and one in my mouth...

Yes, don't we all want a blad in the mouth? I know I do.

But the idea you want is a prehensile tounge.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-05-17, 08:12 PM
I want to wield three swords. Two in my hands and one in my mouth...

Way to go "Zolo".

Collin: The concept of using a prehensile tongue to wield a sword is both really cool, and quite horrifying. :smalleek: Imagine the horror of having that weapon disarmed. :smallyuk:

Admiral Squish
2008-05-17, 09:01 PM
Wow, so there IS cheese for MWF.

Muahahaha.

Vexxation
2008-05-17, 09:06 PM
Okay, I know what I'm about to ask isn't optimized... at all.

But what if I wanted to play, say, a Dolgrim Soulknife. The rules say the Mindblade is a "semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind." And... Dolgrims have two minds, right? That's where the idea gets me interested. If they have dual conciousness, it's not a far stretch to say they could summon two Mind Blades, is it? And then, at Soulknife 5, make four Shortsword Mind Blades, and quadruple-wield. Or two short swords and a bastard sword.

Take multiweapon fighting (though no oversized needed) and that whole line, enchant each Mind Blade separately, so as to be able to utilize all the best enchantments. Splash Rogue or Assassin for flavor. Walk around "unarmed." When the time is right, call the blades and be a concealed whirlwind of death.

I like the idea, but is the dual-conciousness = 2 Mind Blades a viable idea? As a DM, would you allow it?

...not to mention allowing someone to play as a Dolgrim...

Collin152
2008-05-17, 09:13 PM
Collin: The concept of using a prehensile tongue to wield a sword is both really cool, and quite horrifying. :smalleek: Imagine the horror of having that weapon disarmed. :smallyuk:

Hmm...
Forget the sword, I just want that tongue.

Jayngfet
2008-05-18, 12:14 AM
I can't believe you guys forgot Xill, they're even core with quad weapon fighting rules.

One hand counts as you're main hand, any others count as off hands.

SoD
2008-05-18, 07:38 AM
And Chitines. Chitines actually get multiweapon fighting as a bonus feat.

I've always wanted to play a Thrikeen with 4 two-bladed swords. Just 'cos it'd look so cool.


You mean, two two bladed swords. It requires two hands to wield one of them.

It does not! I can play a giant bug with four two-bladed swords, one per hand:


Sword, Two-Bladed

A two-bladed sword is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a two-bladed sword in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Not really that optimised, but wouldn't he look cool?

:tongue:

Dyllan
2008-05-20, 10:04 PM
You guys are missing the real twinkie goodness of MWF.

First, if you really think THF wins, then do both - 4 arms with MWF can mean wielding 2 Greatswords, can't it?

If you really want to do multiple attacks though - get your cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer to cast Girallon's Blessing on you (or GISH and do it yourself). Level 3 spell from Spell Compendium, gives you 2 more arms. Now you can wield 6 weapons (or 3 two-handed weapons if you prefer).

How long would it take the 2 armed fighter to catch up with THAT damage potential?

-Dyllan

BRC
2008-05-20, 10:18 PM
My current characterQuad Wields Rapiers. It's an epic campaign, and I get 12 attacks.

And I have Imp Crit (Rapier). And since it's an evil campaign our DM can't throw us up against endless numbers of undead.

Chronos
2008-05-20, 10:24 PM
My current characterQuad Wields Rapiers.So how does he pull it off? Spell, soulmeld, freaky race?

Collin152
2008-05-20, 10:47 PM
So how does he pull it off? Spell, soulmeld, freaky race?

Rapier-chucks.

Or maybe just mundane juggling.

Talya
2008-05-21, 01:58 PM
Note that a 4 armed being could dual weild 2 handed weapons, and get the full 2 handed weapon power attack bonus on both of them. With pounce on an ubercharger, that means you're attacking three extra times.

Of course, if you do 4,000 damage instead of 2,000 damage, the guy is no more dead...

BRC
2008-05-21, 02:44 PM
So how does he pull it off? Spell, soulmeld, freaky race?

4-armed template, don't know if my DM got it from some book or if he just made it up. Either way, it's explained in my backstory as the result of an unstable polymorph spell that messed up when he reverted back to his normal form. yes it's a ridiculous handwave, but I don't care.

Talya
2008-05-21, 03:07 PM
You know what race I'd like to see?
A species that looks completely human except for having 4 arms...like some Hindu Goddess...

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-21, 03:12 PM
You know what race I'd like to see?
A species that looks completely human except for having 4 arms...like some Hindu Goddess...

I hear there's an LA+2 Multiple Limbed template in the DMGII.

Admiral Squish
2008-05-21, 03:15 PM
I'm still confused. How is charging with a single weapon any better than charging with two? In fact, leap attack would deal an extra multiple of PA with two weapons. Leap attacking with a TH weapon nets you PAx3, while with two weapons it becomes PAx4. Plus, you can get two-weapon pounce with just a feat, instead of a level. Though you would probably want OTWF too, and more TWF feats would mean even more of a PA-difference. So, it's slightly more feat-intensive, but still.

With four or more arms, though, the difference only increases. With two heavier weapons, it's PAx6, but with four one-handed it becomes PAx8. Plus each MWF feat would add three to your attack routine, instead of one.

Talya
2008-05-21, 03:19 PM
I'm still confused. How is charging with a single weapon any better than charging with two?

It's not. That's the flaw in their logic. They're treating this as an ubercharger vs. multiweapon fighter. Nothing prevents a multiweapon fighter from being an ubercharger.

Edit: the basic problem, I suppose, is it's overkill. A guy weilding a single greatsword is already doing so much damage on his charge that if he gets to charge, his opponent is already dead. (Or unconscious, if it's the tarrasque.)

Chronos
2008-05-21, 03:28 PM
I hear there's an LA+2 Multiple Limbed template in the DMGII.If so, it's too steep a price to pay, at least for things capable of class levels. Two levels of Totemist will also give you a couple of extra arms, if you want them, plus HD, save advancement, and all the other advantages of class levels over LA, and a couple of other nifty abilities of your choice.

BRC
2008-05-21, 04:01 PM
I hear there's an LA+2 Multiple Limbed template in the DMGII.
Yeah, thats what I used. I know it sucks, but consider that his character was also a Hobgoblin (theres a reason for it), so Optimization is not really my focus, neither is it the focus of anybody else in my group.

JaxGaret
2008-05-21, 04:04 PM
I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet: having more arms will never, ever tip the balance in favor of MWF over THF. The reason being that a THF can use those same extra arms to add another .5x Str mod to their attacks per arm.

The only way a THF or MWF build will outdamage a THF build is via bonus damage.

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-21, 04:09 PM
I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet: having more arms will never, ever tip the balance in favor of MWF over THF. The reason being that a THF can use those same extra arms to add another .5x Str mod to their attacks per arm.

Only up to 8 arms, and thats assuming you can find a weapon built to be wielded with 8 arms.

JaxGaret
2008-05-21, 04:11 PM
Only up to 8 arms, and thats assuming you can find a weapon built to be wielded with 8 arms.

There's a rule that says only up to 8 arms can be used on a single weapon? Where?

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-21, 04:13 PM
There's a rule that says only up to 8 arms can be used on a single weapon? Where?

Unless its been revised/reprinted in a more recent book, Savage Species, page 42.

Frosty
2008-05-21, 04:19 PM
So if 2-weapon and multi-weapon fighting sucks so much, is that why General Grievous lost to Obi-Wan?

Hmm, we need to stat out General Grievous some time.

Collin152
2008-05-21, 04:26 PM
So if 2-weapon and multi-weapon fighting sucks so much, is that why General Grievous lost to Obi-Wan?

Hmm, we need to stat out General Grievous some time.

He lost because Evil makes you Weak.

JaxGaret
2008-05-21, 04:30 PM
Unless its been revised/reprinted in a more recent book, Savage Species, page 42.

Ah, I see. It doesn't actually say that you can't use more than 8 arms on a weapon; it says that a 2 handed weapon can only be designed to be used by up to 8 hands. Semantics, but there is a difference.

This means that you can create a custom weapon that allows the use of more hands.

Frosty
2008-05-21, 04:31 PM
He lost because Evil makes you Weak.

Is that a TVtrope?

Collin152
2008-05-21, 04:33 PM
Is that a TVtrope?

I hope so, else I'll probably be corrected by one that says the opposite.

Unless it's sometihng like Evil Makes You Lose, which is more accurate.

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-21, 04:33 PM
This means that you can create a custom weapon that allows the use of more hands.
Much like you can create a use-activated sword of True Strike?

Justyn
2008-05-21, 06:04 PM
Way to go "Zolo".

First: his name is "Zoro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roronoa_Zoro)", with an R (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpellMyNameWithAnS).


I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned yet: having more arms will never, ever tip the balance in favor of MWF over THF. The reason being that a THF can use those same extra arms to add another .5x Str mod to their attacks per arm.

The only way a THF or MWF build will outdamage a THF build is via bonus damage.

You are so wrong. First of all, you way that the only way that MWF out damages MHF is via bonus damage; but, arn't those 1/2 str bonuses, bonus damage?

In addition, if the person has a low strength score, then that 1.5x, 2.5x, or 3.5x increases don't accrue. Why? Because three and one half times zero equals zero. Three and one have times one is three and a half.

So just nerding out a little here and no, I will not do charging cheese:

Fighter lvl 5, Str 15 , with normal weapons, not taking Level Adjustment or feats into account.

Greatsword, two handed: 2d6+3 damage (Single or full attack: 5-16 averages ~10 damage)
Two longswords: 1d8+2 & 1d8+1 damage (Single Attack: 3-11 averages ~6.5 damage. Full attack: 5-19 averages ~12 damage)

Greatsword, four handed: 2d6+5 damage (Single or full attack: 7-17 averages ~12 damage)
Four longswords: 1d8+2 & 1d8+1x3 (Single attack: 3-11 averages ~6.5 damage. Full Attack: 9-37 averages ~23 damage)

Greatsword, six handed: 2d6+7 (single or full attack: 9-19 averages ~14 damage)
Six longswords: 1d8+2 & 1d8+1x5 (Single attack: 3-11 averages ~6.5 damage. Full attack 13-55 averages ~34 damage)

Results:

The Multihanded fighting proved that the damage increases a solid amount each time a pair of hands is entered into the equasion.

The Multiweapon single attack's damage stayed the same, no matter how many hands are added.

The Multiweapon full attack increased exponentialy every time a pair of hands is added.

I took a liberty in assuming that each and every one of the attacks would hit. But I can tell you from experience, that the one multi-handed attack will hit harder, but if it misses, you are S.O.L.; while each of the multi-weapon fighting attacks for less individualy, but you have more than one chance to damage with a good chance to hit for more than that one single big attack.

I also took no feats into account.

JaxGaret
2008-05-21, 07:48 PM
Much like you can create a use-activated sword of True Strike?

Not exactly. The too-cheap (+2,000 gp is the standard newbie cost assumption) use-activated sword of True Strike doesn't follow the Item Creation Guidelines. There is nothing in the rules to bar its creation; it is simply the cost that is normally in question, and of course DM fiat always can come into play.

A sword that can be utilized by more than 8 hands doesn't follow any guidelines, as there aren't any to follow as far as I know. It would be entirely up to the DM to allow or disallow it.

JaxGaret
2008-05-21, 07:52 PM
You are so wrong. First of all, you way that the only way that MWF out damages MHF is via bonus damage; but, arn't those 1/2 str bonuses, bonus damage?

I thought that it was fairly obvious that what I meant by bonus damage was such as that from Sneak Attacks - typically what people talk about when comparing TWF to THF.


In addition, if the person has a low strength score, then that 1.5x, 2.5x, or 3.5x increases don't accrue. Why? Because three and one half times zero equals zero. Three and one have times one is three and a half.

True, but I was assuming standard ability spreads for a THF build, which means that their Str is at least a 14 to start, if not a 16, 18, or higher. Then you add in Str-boosting from level bumps, equipment, class features, etc.

Paul H
2008-05-21, 08:40 PM
You guys are missing the real twinkie goodness of MWF.

First, if you really think THF wins, then do both - 4 arms with MWF can mean wielding 2 Greatswords, can't it?

If you really want to do multiple attacks though - get your cleric, druid, wizard or sorcerer to cast Girallon's Blessing on you (or GISH and do it yourself). Level 3 spell from Spell Compendium, gives you 2 more arms. Now you can wield 6 weapons (or 3 two-handed weapons if you prefer).

How long would it take the 2 armed fighter to catch up with THAT damage potential?

-Dyllan

Hi

Unfortunately - not quite so. Spell description prohibits use of manufactured weapons and use the extra arms. However - still works with natural attacks, such as Druid wildshape. Eg Dire Ape with Girallon's Blessing gets four attacks, if any two hit gets rend.

Cheers
Paul H

PS As an aside - working on a 12th lvl char for a home campign. 28pt buy.
Clr 1 Druid 11. With Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell & DMM Persisitent Spell. Shape into Dire Ape, Girralons Blesssing, Gtr Magic Fang & DMM Perist Bite Werebear. Wear Large Rhino Hide Armour. Cast Lion Pounce & charge. 4 Attacks doing 4D6+15 dam, plus rend for 8D6+22. 24D6+82 dam plus bite damage. (3D8+2D6+8)

Coplantor
2008-05-21, 09:04 PM
excuse my ignoance but, what does "monkey grip" feat do?

Justyn
2008-05-21, 09:04 PM
I thought that it was fairly obvious that what I meant by bonus damage was such as that from Sneak Attacks - typically what people talk about when comparing TWF to THF.

I was just being very, very anal retentive.


True, but I was assuming standard ability spreads for a THF build, which means that their Str is at least a 14 to start, if not a 16, 18, or higher. Then you add in Str-boosting from level bumps, equipment, class features, etc.

Of course when you optimize a charater to do something, it is going to do it very well.

And as I showed before, MHF deals more damage per attack, and MWF dealing more damage overall, with no optimization; the damage of MHF increasing linaerly, while MWF increases exponentialy in reguard to number of arms. You said that MWF only deals more damage when things like Sneak Attack are factored in; I showed that (at least on this test) on a full attack, MWF deals more damage overall than MHF.

I only went on with the smallest stat, so that even after the bonus is halfed, the bonus is still a whole number; and I didn't do the math on how the stuff works when strength increases, with feats factored in, with different weapons, or lots and lots of cheese.

marjan
2008-05-21, 09:11 PM
excuse my ignoance but, what does "monkey grip" feat do?

You do not want to know answer to that question. :smallwink:

PS: The feat lets you pretend that you can wield larger weapons as effectively as normal weapons.

Coplantor
2008-05-21, 09:14 PM
So, lets say I take that as a thri-kreen... Then I can have four greatswords and use them in the same round?

BRC
2008-05-21, 09:15 PM
Yes, provided you don't mind the DM beating you over the head with the DMG

Coplantor
2008-05-21, 09:18 PM
The best thing about being me Mr.Bloddyredcommie is that I'm the dungeon master! Mbwahahahaha...

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-21, 09:18 PM
So, lets say I take that as a thri-kreen... Then I can have four greatswords and use them in the same round?

No.

For one, the feat doesn't apply to your offhand(s)

For two, it lets you wield weapons one size category bigger without increasing the effort needed, it doesn't allow you to wield you-sized weapons with less effort.

BRC
2008-05-21, 09:21 PM
The best thing about being me Mr.Bloddyredcommie is that I'm the dungeon master! Mbwahahahaha...
In which case expect your players to beat you over the head with the PHB, then leave without helping you pay for the pizza.

Coplantor
2008-05-21, 09:21 PM
So... can I have a thre-kreen with two large greatswords?

Admiral Squish
2008-05-21, 09:22 PM
No.

For one, the feat doesn't apply to your offhand(s)

For two, it lets you wield weapons one size category bigger without increasing the effort needed, it doesn't allow you to wield you-sized weapons with less effort.
Hang on. A two-handed weapon is the same size category as the wielder. So, monkeygripped greatsword would be... cloud?

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-21, 09:23 PM
So... can I have a thre-kreen with two large greatswords?

No, but you can have a thri-kreen with a large greatsword and a medium one.


And yes, Monkeygrip + Greatsword (or Fullblade) is Cloud.

Coplantor
2008-05-21, 09:27 PM
Stupid third edition, back in the old days, all hands were primary hands!

OK, ext question, what is a fullblad? (I feel particulary ignorant today)

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-21, 09:29 PM
Can't remember what book its from off the top of my head, but the Fullblade is an exotic weapon thats like a greatsword, only bigger. Or something like that, anyway.

BRC
2008-05-21, 09:29 PM
Stupid third edition, back in the old days, all hands were primary hands!

OK, ext question, what is a fullblad? (I feel particulary ignorant today)

A Cloud Sword. It's what Ogres use as Bastard Swords.

Chronos
2008-05-22, 02:11 AM
Wait, how does multiweapon fighting grow exponentially? I can't even see any way to make it quadratic.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-22, 05:16 AM
Swordsage 1 (nab Shadow Blade)/Swashbuckler 3 lets you add INT, DEX, and STR to your attacks. Each.

I think that makes up for power attack.

Talya
2008-05-22, 06:29 AM
No.

For one, the feat doesn't apply to your offhand(s)

For two, it lets you wield weapons one size category bigger without increasing the effort needed, it doesn't allow you to wield you-sized weapons with less effort.

If it applied to your offhand(s), then I'm thinking it would.

Greatsword = Large Longsword. (Yes, they are identical. Both are 2d6 damage, 19-20/x2 weapons. Ergo, they are interchangeable.)

If you can weild a longsword, and take monkey grip, doesn't that mean you could weild a large longsword without increasing the effort needed? That would turn 4 longswords into 4 large longswords (greatswords.)

Which is a hell of a bad idea, but I think it could be done.

Griffin131
2008-05-22, 06:42 AM
Greatsword = Large Longsword. (Yes, they are identical. Both are 2d6 damage, 19-20/x2 weapons. Ergo, they are interchangeable.)
Mechanically, yes. Physically, no. Physically, theres a difference in weight distribution, grip size, etc. that make these two totally different swords.

Talya
2008-05-22, 07:00 AM
Hmmm...I never thought about this (because it's a bad idea...and would look even more stupid), but a goliath with monkey grip could weild a 4d6 huge greatsword...

Griffin131
2008-05-22, 07:39 AM
Hmmm...I never thought about this (because it's a bad idea...and would look even more stupid), but a goliath with monkey grip could weild a 4d6 huge greatsword...
Powerful Build and Monkey Grip dont stack, so no he couldnt.

Talya
2008-05-22, 09:35 AM
Powerful Build and Monkey Grip dont stack, so no he couldnt.

Where does it say that, in the monkey-grip feat description? It would need to be explicitly stated that they do not stack, or else they do. I just haven't seen that statement anywhere. Of course, I've never read the monkey-grip description either, it never seemed all that interesting.

Leon
2008-05-22, 09:58 AM
And yes, Monkeygrip + Greatsword (or Fullblade) is Cloud.

Or Colossal Swiss army knife

Number crunching be dammed
Dual weapon combat is cool and Multi Weapon combat only expands on that coolness

Chronos
2008-05-22, 10:30 AM
Where does it say that, in the monkey-grip feat description? It would need to be explicitly stated that they do not stack, or else they do. I just haven't seen that statement anywhere. Of course, I've never read the monkey-grip description either, it never seemed all that interesting.A goliath is Medium. Powerful Build means that he can wield weapons as though he were one size larger, i.e., Large. If he were to take Monkey Grip, that would mean that he could wield weapons as though he were one size larger, i.e., Large. So a goliath with Monkey Grip can wield Large weapons, and he can also wield Large weapons.

Talya
2008-05-22, 09:21 PM
A goliath is Medium. Powerful Build means that he can wield weapons as though he were one size larger, i.e., Large. If he were to take Monkey Grip, that would mean that he could wield weapons as though he were one size larger, i.e., Large. So a goliath with Monkey Grip can wield Large weapons, and he can also wield Large weapons.

If a goliath were one size larger, he'd be able to weild huge weapons, because he'd be large, with the "powerful build" trait. If something that can weild large weapons suddenly gains the ability to weild weapons as if it were one size larger, it can now weild huge weapons. There's no wording there that prevents those two from working together.

What prevents those two from working together is the absurdity of a 7-to-8 foot tall monstrous humanoid weilding a 12+ foot long blade.

Coplantor
2008-05-22, 10:02 PM
You can if you are anime.

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-22, 10:09 PM
You can if you are anime.

I'll hold two swords in my mouth?

Collin152
2008-05-22, 10:11 PM
I'll hold two swords in my mouth?

A sword in the mouth is worth one in each hand.

If you asked me, that is.

Permit me to demonstrate.

Coplantor
2008-05-22, 10:16 PM
If I were anime i would hold blades with my eyes!

Knife eye attack!!!!!!

Collin152
2008-05-22, 10:18 PM
If I were anime i would hold blades with my eyes!

Knife eye attack!!!!!!

There is not a part of me that cannot hold a blade!
My body is but a single massive sword!
I can shoot swordlets out of my eyes, mouth, nose, ears, and a few other choice locations!

Coplantor
2008-05-22, 10:21 PM
Great, because I'm made of crossbows and grenades! An alliance between us would be unstopable!

Collin152
2008-05-22, 10:29 PM
Great, because I'm made of crossbows and grenades! An alliance between us would be unstopable!

Hmm, I don't know, you seem a bit unstable.
Bit of a trigger finger there?
Short fuse, I'd wager.

Coplantor
2008-05-22, 10:31 PM
You are right, I already exploded, i need to be repaired. Stupid grenades, what was i thinking...

Collin152
2008-05-22, 10:34 PM
Try a wooden-cross-shooting-crossbow this time. We'll go hunt vampires. i've got a silver arm, we can fight werrewolves on the side.

Hm... If one is a construct comopsed of weapons (Note: Hombrew that), whats to stop them from having multiple weapon-limbs built in?

Coplantor
2008-05-22, 10:48 PM
Invitation to hunt the children of the night: Accepted.

Weapon made golems: Excelent... I can see a new thread in there, and a new horror for my players to face... Mbwahahahaha.