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Zerzix
2008-05-16, 12:57 AM
Ok, this might be a bad idea to make this thread, but....

I am over whelmed and would love any ideas or actual posting of a character to help me out in mechanics and ideas.

I need to make a 30th lvl gest character with double character level feats.

No leadership feat and 4.3 million gold to buy from DM's guide and Magic Item Comp.

Would prefer frontline fighter, but am open to anything at this point.

Inyssius Tor
2008-05-16, 01:03 AM
Are you abbreviating "gestalt"?

Also: what are your available sources? Core only? Core plus rest-of-SRD? Core plus rest-of-SRD plus Complete series? Core plus rest-of-SRD plus Complete series plus Incarnum and Tome of Magic classes and the Tome of Battle (and the PHB II)?

Anyway: about all I can volunteer is that the game is broken so hard at that level that I can't come up with a metaphor evocative enough to help describe it.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-16, 01:16 AM
Playing 30th level gestalt characters is pointless. You might as well play freeform.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-16, 01:21 AM
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5/Incantatrix 10//Fighter 30

Play as a Grey Elf with the Elf Generalist sub level and Spontaneous Divination class feature. Use Chaos Shuffle to turn all of your fighter feats into metamagic feats.

Make various epic spells to turn yourself into god and shoot suns at your enemies.

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-16, 01:29 AM
Make various epic spells to turn yourself into god and shoot suns at your enemies.

Replace that with Quasars and you're good to go.

Laurellien
2008-05-16, 01:57 AM
Archivist 30//Wizard 30 = win

Alternatively, you could use this idea I found on the WotC boards. I would credit the guy I stole it from, but I can't spell his name (EDIT: Here it is... "tsuyoshikentsu")


This is a brilliant way to get a LOT of power. I'm assuming that Tyranny works the same as Leadership, since I don't have 7th Sea. I'm also assuming that you're not using the Wealth system, and are instead using the good-old GP/credits system. (I'll be calling them GP for simplicity's sake.) For the sake of SOME balance, Extra Followers will only apply to ONE Leadership. And finally, I don't think Competence bonuses stack, but that's okay. I am, however, assuming your DM will see the sense in letting your sidekick and your cohort's bonuses stack, since it's sharing of expertise and by definition they have different expertise.

THE CHARACTER AND HIS HELPERS

The Character

First, you are any evil human -- probably lawful evil. Max out INT and CHA. At the expense of EVERYTHING. CHA needs to provide as close to +9 as you can get, and INT needs to go as high as it can.

Classes:

Smart 10/Exemplar 1/UA Expert 4/UA Warrior 4/X 1//Cleric 1/Marshall 1/Wizard 17

Your domains are Artifice and Craft, and your Skill Mastery is Craft (Mechanical). For Warrior and Expert, your skills include Craft (Mechanical) and Diplomacy. Aura is Motivate Intelligence.

Feats:

Level 1: Artistic Crafter (Craft [Mechanical]), Engineer

In whatever order you prefer, barring prerequisites

Skill Focus (Craft [Mechanical])
Master Crafter
Leadership
Undead Leadership
Tyrant
Minions
Sidekick
Extra Followers
Skill Emphasis (Craft [Mechanical])
Handy
Mercantile Background (Craft [Mechanical])
Ordinary Past
Student of the Arts (Craft [Mechanical])

This leaves you with an outrageous number of bonus feats from Smart. Take whatever you think would be helpful.

The Cohort

Classes:

Human UA Expert 4/UA Warrior 8/UA Spellcaster 1/Field Marshall 5//Marshall 1/Wizard 17.

Background is Dillente, or whatever that +6 to Rep one is. Skills are Diplomacy and Knowledge (Tactics). Aura is Motivate Intelligence.

Feats:

Skill Focus (Craft)
Personal Firearms Proficiency
Fame x 14

EDIT #2A: The Sidekick

Classes:

Human UA Expert 4/UA Warrior 8/UA Spellcaster 1/Field Marshall 5//Marshall 1/Wizard 17.

Background is Dillente, or whatever that +6 to Rep one is. Skills are Diplomacy and Knowledge (Tactics). Aura is Motivate Intelligence.

Feats:

Skill Focus (Craft)
Personal Firearms Proficiency
Fame x 14

EDIT 2B: Followers/Minions

Your followers are all Human. In the case of your undead followers, they all have the Corpse template.

Classes:

Their classes, depending on their levels, are below. In parentheses is the number of each you get, assuming a Leadership score in each of 25.

Level 1: UA Expert 1 (540)
Level 2: UA Expert 2 (52)
Level 3: Dedicated 3 (28)
Level 4: Dedicated 3/UA Expert 1 (16)
Level 5: Dedicated 3/UA Expert 2 (8)
Level 6: Dedicated 5/UA Expert 1 (8)

In the case of Dedicated, they all take Empathy, then Improved Aid Another, then Improved Aid Another. Skills always include Craft (Mechanical). All skill points are spent on bringing it up to highest rank for that level. Obviously, this means the Expert levels are taken last.

Feats:

Feats in parentheses are to be taken after the first two.

Mercantile Background (Craft [Mechanical])
Skill Emphasis (Craft [Mechanical])

(Skill Focus [Craft (Mechanical)])
(Master Crafter)
(Builder)

If the follower is a Dedicated 3, substitute Cosmipolitan (Craft [Mechanical]) for Mercantile Background.

PROCEDURE, PART ONE

Every second of your and your lackeys' spare time is dedicated to making money. A good way to do this, once you, your cohort and your sidekick can cast flesh to salt (and later mass flesh to salt) is to get cows, change them into salt, and sell the salt for the going price. Your lower-downs can make wind-up toys or something.

The point of this is to get...

Brace yourself...

19 million GP.

Yes, THAT much. Please pick up your jaw; with enough lackeys working around the clock, it's doable. And trust me, you have enough lackeys

Besides, you're never going to really be buying any, you know, EQUIPMENT or anything, aside from stat-boosting items. Just tell your party to wait and see, and have good faith.

Or just show them this build, whichever.

PROCEDURE, PART TWO

Now, you have 19 million GP. But what to DO with it? The answer:

Spend every copper of it on raw materials.

Once you've done that, here's what you do: go to a plane where time goes very, very fast in comparison to the Material Plane.

EDIT #2: I have found a way to cut down on this time even MORE by adding the Minions and Sidekick feats from d20 Past. I am assuming that Field Marshall bonuses from two sources stack, because it makes sense game-wise. Your DM results will vary.

Every day, this is your procedure:

--You, your cohort and your sidekick cast fabricate until both of you run out of spells.

--All three of you activate your Motivate Intelligence auras.

--You announce your Craft (Mechanical) check.

--Your cohort and your sidekick use their August Leadership ability to add 48+CHA (Rep+CHA) to your check. (They don't fail this because he's got at least 9 ranks in Diplomacy.)

--All of your first and second level followers Aid Another you, for (assuming your Leadership, Tyrant, Minions and Undead Leadership scores are all at least 25) a +1480 bonus on the check. (Note: None of your follower's checks fail, because their feat bonus is at least +5, plus at least four ranks in Craft [Mechanical]. Add in the 1 from the lowest possible roll, and they get a 10.)

--All of your third and fourth level followers Improved Aid Another you, for (again, assuming scores of 25) another +165.

--All of your fifth and sixth level followers Improved Aid Another x2 you, for another +80.

--You take 20, thanks to Artistic Crafter.

Your check total is:

23 Ranks
Taking 20, Artistic Crafter
+1d4, Handy
+2, Skill Focus (Craft [Mechanical])
+2, Master Crafter
+3, Skill Emphasis (Craft [Mechanical])
+2, Mercantile Background (Craft [Mechanical])
+2, Ordinary Past
+2, Student of the Arts (Craft [Mechanical])
+CHA mod, your aura
+Cohort's CHA mod, cohort's aura
+Cohort's CHA mod, cohort's August Leadership
+48, cohort's August Leadership
+Sidekick's CHA mod, sidekick's aura
+Sidekick's CHA mod, sidekick's August Leadership
+48, sidekick's August Leadership
+80, followers' Improved Aid Another x2
+165, followers' Improved Aid Another
+1480, followers' Aid Another
=
+1917 total check result.

Now, the difference in Craft DC between a wooden spoon and a jet engine is 25. As such, me and a fellow player/DM decided that the magnitude of complexity from a wooden spoon to a jet engine (DC 30) is about the same as from a jet engine to our target object. The conversation is funny enough to be repeated below.



Originally Posted by tsuyoshikentsu+Julie
Me: Would you say that the difference in magnitude between crafting a spoon and crafting a jet engine is abut the same difference in magnitude between crafting a jet engine and crafting, say, a __________?

Me: A wooden spoon, mind.

(pause)

Me: Yes, I know it's stupid, shut up.

Me: Just answer it.

Her: hm.

Her: i would say not quite as magnificent.

Me: ...

Her: at least the jet engine and the _________ have the same basic mechanics involved.

Her: A WOODEN SPOON, TUCKER.

Me: No, no, no, we're talking degrees of complexity here.

Her: oh.

Her: then yes.

Me: Okay.
Anyway, we decided that an acceptable Craft DC was 55. If your DM says it's higher, hey, even better; it just means the work gets done faster.

So. 1524 times 55 equals 83,820. Not counting fabrication, you'll get 8,382 GP worth of work done in a week. Of course, this will still take 130 years not counting fabricate. Nihility found the solution to the problem: voluntarily increase the DC of the target item until it equals 1515. That's an increase of 1460, if you care. Anyway, that means you get 230,886 GP done in a week -- so this'll take you about 4 and 3/4s of a year.

EDIT #2: But then, that's the OLD number. Since our NEW check is +1917 (or 1917-48-sidekick's CHa mod, if the field marshall bonuses don't stack) we can crank that DC up to 1915. So, 1917 times 1915 is 3,671,055, which adjusted and rounded down is 367,105 GP per week, cutting your time down to JUST under three years. HUZZAH!

So anyway, let's assume you do all that. What do you get?

WHAT YOU GET

http://bragewj.com/starwars/stardestroyer.jpg
What You Get



Have fun with your new implement of destruction. And remember: it looks real good with a planeshifting helm on it.

weenie
2008-05-16, 02:10 AM
Wizard 5/ Broken prcs 25 // Duskblade 30

In melee use the Thunderlance spell + channelling, otherwise take Arcane tesis(Orb of Fire), find some way to make it sonic, take improved metamagic(ELH) and some feat that lowers the cost of Quicken spell by one, take Twin spell, Take enery Admixture(the sonic variant from magic of faerun), take Maximise spell, Empower spell, take the epic feat that raises the cap od your damage dealing spells by 10 dice, take manyspell as many timeas as you can.

Voilá. You can dish out tons of hurt almost all day long in melee and when threatened, just kill the thing with 4 Maximised, Empowered, Twinned, Energy Admixtured, Enhanced(I think..), Sonicked Orbs of Fire, for an average of 3100 sonic, spell resistance free damage. You don't even need any equipment for this one, but a few tomes and a +8 int thing wouldn't hurt either.

Squash Monster
2008-05-16, 03:11 AM
Spellcasters get progressively better than everybody else. It's pretty insane at level 20, but at level 21 you get to start using the rules for epic spellcasting, which is just plain better than everything.

Divine spellcasters get access to the heal and life epic spell seeds, and nobody else does. So they're just better. Your choices are cleric, druid, and archivist. Archivist beats cleric up and makes it cry, so really it's between druid and archivist. They get the same spells at epic levels, so it's a contest between wild shape and dark knowledge. You'd think this easily goes to the druid, but level 9 spells give you shapechange, which makes wild shape obsolete. So take archivist.

Conveniently, archivist is int-based. Why is this convenient? Because the other thing that you really want is extra actions. And factotum is really good at extra actions.

So you'll want something like Archivist 6 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Archivist +23 // Factotum 30.

Now, this might not feel as melee as you'd like it to. But there's a trick to this.

You can research epic spells that do pretty much whatever you want. Make your own custom version of Divine Power On Crack and go to town.

DrizztFan24
2008-05-16, 08:39 AM
Archivist 30//Wizard 30 = win

Alternatively, you could use this idea I found on the WotC boards. I would credit the guy I stole it from, but I can't spell his name (EDIT: Here it is... "tsuyoshikentsu")


This is a brilliant way to get a LOT of power.
*snip*

I can't see the picture at the end but I truly hope it is a picture of the iron man suit.

Anyways anything that is a full caster with full ranks in Spellcraft will be good for epic.

Wiz2/MasterSpecialist3/Incant10/ArchMage3/IotSV10/X//Druid/planar shepard would works nciely I think

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-16, 10:38 AM
(Unarmed?) Swordsage 20/ Bloodclaw Master 10//Druid 30.

Wild Shape into something with big claws.

Need I say more?

UglyPanda
2008-05-16, 11:14 AM
What's your DM's rulings on double-progression classes and having a PrC on both sides? Epic Spellcasting is horribly broken, so ask your DM about it.

Druid/Planar Shepherd//Wizard 5/Bunch of PrCs - Pick a plane, pick a type of cheese.
Archivist/Sacred Exorcist 1/PrCs//Wizard 5/PrCs - Night sticks make everything better.

Griffin131
2008-05-16, 11:16 AM
Spellcasters get progressively better than everybody else. It's pretty insane at level 20, but at level 21 you get to start using the rules for epic spellcasting, which is just plain better than everything.

Divine spellcasters get access to the heal and life epic spell seeds, and nobody else does. So they're just better. Your choices are cleric, druid, and archivist. Archivist beats cleric up and makes it cry, so really it's between druid and archivist. They get the same spells at epic levels, so it's a contest between wild shape and dark knowledge. You'd think this easily goes to the druid, but level 9 spells give you shapechange, which makes wild shape obsolete. So take archivist.

Conveniently, archivist is int-based. Why is this convenient? Because the other thing that you really want is extra actions. And factotum is really good at extra actions.

So you'll want something like Archivist 6 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Archivist +23 // Factotum 30.

Now, this might not feel as melee as you'd like it to. But there's a trick to this.

You can research epic spells that do pretty much whatever you want. Make your own custom version of Divine Power On Crack and go to town.
Either this or the Uber-craft check 4tw.

Prince_of_Blades
2008-05-16, 12:32 PM
-SNIP-

Night sticks make everything better.

Yes they do.

Crusader 1/ Cleric 4/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 6/ Full Casting PRC's 19// Wizard 5/ Full Casting 25

Necessary Feat: Leadership

Cohort: anything with RKV 6.

The Trick: use White Raven Tactics on each other for additional turns.

Each additional turn is 3 turn undead attempts (2 to recover WRT as a swift action, 1 for another swift to initiate WRT).

That's four extra turns for both you and your cohort for every six nightsticks (45000 gp total). So, if you spent .9 million on nightsticks, that's 80 turns a day for you and another 80 for your cohort - whenever you want them.

In addition, you could use Arcane Spellsurge (makes standard action casting time arcane spells into swift action casting time) if you're still using wizard spells, and pump out them for 1 turning attempt a pop.

Or just use epic spells with a casting time of 1 swift action, if that's possible.

jcsw
2008-05-16, 02:40 PM
Not to be a spoilsport, but:


Snip...No leadership feat...snippity

Just so you people who keep posting builds with it know.

Although I wonder if thrallherd is allowed...

Ker
2008-05-16, 06:39 PM
I believe the original SD thing was a Victory, not an Imperial. ImpStars can't operate in an atmosphere (depending on whether or not the trailer to The Force Unleashed is canon).

And that doesn't account for the Hypermatter needed to power the reactor. Or the gas for the Turbolasers.

Gralamin
2008-05-16, 06:52 PM
Divine spellcasters get access to the heal and life epic spell seeds, and nobody else does.

I have never seen a rule that saids this. As far as I know, Wizards can use Heal and life just as much as any other epic spellcaster.

Worira
2008-05-16, 07:12 PM
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5/Incantatrix 10//Fighter 30

Play as a Grey Elf with the Elf Generalist sub level and Spontaneous Divination class feature. Use Chaos Shuffle to turn all of your fighter feats into metamagic feats.

Make various epic spells to turn yourself into god and shoot suns at your enemies.

Pfft, suns? Anyone worth their salt is immune to suns at epic levels.

Istari
2008-05-16, 07:14 PM
WHAT YOU GET

http://bragewj.com/starwars/stardestroyer.jpg
What You Get



Have fun with your new implement of destruction. And remember: it looks real good with a planeshifting helm on it.

Naaa Im thinking deathstar or time machine. Or maybe robotic army.:smallbiggrin:

BRC
2008-05-16, 07:31 PM
Pfft, suns? Anyone worth their salt is immune to suns at epic levels.

Yeah, most things at that level have DR 15000x10^30/Forceofpuredestructionthelikesofwhichmakesthegodst remble.

Nah, what you do is shoot Sun-sized Spheres of ultimate Destruction at your enemies.

Zerzix
2008-05-17, 06:36 AM
wow, such a great response! thanks so much. I totally didn't even think of these kinds of builds. Anyone have a pure melee build idea for me? The other 5 guys in the group have pretty much focused on spellcasting and I would love to stand toe to toe and deal pure damage each round.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 06:47 AM
wow, such a great response! thanks so much. I totally didn't even think of these kinds of builds. Anyone have a pure melee build idea for me? The other 5 guys in the group have pretty much focused on spellcasting and I would love to stand toe to toe and deal pure damage each round.

That's basically not an option in epic play.

If you want to go for it anyway:

-Excellent Deflection and Infinite Deflection feats. These saves you from ranged touch spells.

-Great Reflection armor property. It's +10, but it's worth it.

-Evasion and Mettle. And high saves. Really high. A CHA-based build getting CHA to saves twice should do it. (Paladin variants, Hexblade, etc).

-Mobility. Look, a caster can teleport/gate/etc in a mile above your head, cast a bunch of spells with Multispell, and teleport/gate/etc out with his last Multispell. You won't be able to do this, but you need to be able to get to your enemies, which means high movement, some teleportation, and the ability to move and full attack (Pounce, travel devotion, etc).

Even with all that said, spellcasting would still help you out by providing some of the things you want.

Kioran
2008-05-17, 12:35 PM
YouŽll want, if youŽre going without major spellcasting:

- Full BAB
- very good saves, Mettle, Evasion (take the ring for that. In most cases, it will only be damage anyway, and you can soak that), and a metric ton of resistances
- Metric tons of Epic feats
- Good ability scores
- Pounce

IŽd build a Half-orc. One side would be Fighter 30 - no better way to gain the requisite BAB and Epic Feats, really.

Others of note:
- Lion Totem Barb 1 (Pounce! + Rage)
- Half Orc Paragon 3 (more Rage + 2 Str)
- Human Paragon 3 (Skillz, good will save, +2 to any ability)
- Exotic Weapon master 1 (2x Str to Damge for two-handed weapon? Yes please!)
- Pious Templar 1 (Mettle, good will)
- Holy Liberator 4 or Blackguard 2 (depends on alignment. YouŽll be wanting divine grace)
- Dragon Disciple 10 (half Dragon Template + Wings + good will)
- Legendary dreadnought (smashing walls of Force, DR, Bonus Feats)

DonŽt know how good this advice is, but IŽd basically go for insane strength, good saves and a godly amount of HP, as well as DR. You have the Feats for this anyway. The high Str for damage and to resist grapples (take any Feat that grants a bonus in that department). Unfortunately, youŽll still be a Fighter. One heck of a Fighter, but the others can probably Summon stuff stronger than you are.........Unless your DM bans Epic spells.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 12:40 PM
Void Incarnate, together with a scout/swift skirmisher, could help. A ton of immunities, skill monkeying, and large amounts of sneak attack/skirmish would be nice - especially when combined with Warblade or some sort of ToB niceness.

D Knight
2008-05-17, 05:38 PM
warlock/hellfire warlock//fighter. foucs on eld blast.
warlock/hfw//rouge. sneak attack for mass damage.
almost anything with warlock is a win if you assk my but thats me.

Eldariel
2008-05-17, 06:50 PM
When you build a gestalt characters, it's generally good form to have both sides contribute. For Wizard, Archivist is a good start, it contributes a bit (basically Miracle, Heal and Resurrections; it's mostly just extra spells per day). Kicking it up a notch though, Factotum is a way, way stronger choice. And if planning on wading into the melee (or even if not), Warblade>Eternal Blade contributes tons.

If you really wanted to be a melee fighter, Eternal Blade Incantatrix is pretty good; with 30 levels to work with, that's fairly easy to achieve without PrC overlaps, and since you're on epic, pure damage is the way to go anyways (as everything is immune to everything else) so it can actually work ok. Just use your Wizard's spells to make sure you'll get to hit whatever (and make sure you hit hard, and a lot) while using maneuvers to boost up your hits. As long as you can immediately deal 5000 or so damage, you should be fine, getting enough through all the reductions to kill things in a turn. Eternal Blade has the nice ability to take a turn as an Immediate Action once per combat, and since it's a real turn, you'll have new Immediate Action to use after it so it's basically free action to get a full round.


Of course, this is assuming there're some significant limitations to Epic Spellcasting since otherwise nothing really matters as Epic Spellcasting breaks everything wide open. Of course, even then the Warblade-half can be useful for Int to things and the Immediate Action-turn, but Factotum would be far superior in such an environment.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-17, 07:08 PM
wow, such a great response! thanks so much. I totally didn't even think of these kinds of builds. Anyone have a pure melee build idea for me? The other 5 guys in the group have pretty much focused on spellcasting and I would love to stand toe to toe and deal pure damage each round.
I do not have any helpful suggestions for pure melee at those levels beyond "don't do it" no.

See, whenever I'm giving advice in Gestalt, one of the things I mention is to be aware of power curves. At low-levels, the Fighter or Barbarian is king of the hill - they're the classes who can most reliably take down opponents at that level. At high levels, it's the full casters. Sneaks are somewhere in between for most levels. At Epic levels, the curve is rather extreme. By the book, you can, no joke, mitigate arbitrarily high base DC's in relatively short timeframes (to the point of animating the earth in a year and a day of casting for 2 minutes per day at 21st level ... less, if you do a small amount of optimization - and no, I'm not exaggerating). You need one side to be a full caster to keep up. Straight Cleric is fine - good, even. Put whatever martial class you'd like on the other side, but make sure at least one side is a full caster. It's a power issue. Epic martial feats simply aren't up to Epic Spells ... or even Epic spell casters without epic spells.

Vexxation
2008-05-17, 07:16 PM
*snip* A good way to do this, once you, your cohort and your sidekick can cast flesh to salt (and later mass flesh to salt) is to get cows, change them into salt, and sell the salt for the going price. *snip*

Oh my god.
I never imagined anything like that before.
It's so awful that it's awesome.

Just imagine.. "Moo~aargharghhgghll... *poof*"

What a disturbing but wonderful image. Thank you.