SWSE: Balanced Jedi?

[UserClone]

Are the Jedi any more balanced in otherwise non-Jedi parties than in the original Star Wars D20 RPG?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Mostly. Going nova leave's them useless for a level.

[Saph]

I haven't played D20 Star Wars, but we're playing a low-level Saga game at the moment. The party's got 2 Jedi and 3 Scoundrels.

The Jedi have proved more dangerous in combat, but the Scoundrels are probably more useful. One of the Scoundrels has Skill Focus (Use Computer) and he accomplishes more with just that skill than both Jedi do with all their Force powers combined.

Balance hasn't been an issue so far, but then no-one's deliberately trying to break the game either.

- Saph

[Bag_of_Holding]

I find the Saga Edition quite nicely balanced. Jedi-related abilities (using the force etc) aren't too strictly Jedi-only anymore, with a scout doing everything a Jedi does at the cost of 2 feats (Force Sensitive, Lightsaber proficiency) with a little less hp and much, much more trained skills.

So, unlike SW d20, where Jedi predominated just about everything, they aren't all that special anymore in SE. Of course, fluff-wise, they are very nice to play.

[Mushroom Ninja]

At low levels, Jedi dominate if they take lots of force training. As you reach more mid and high levels, things even out pretty well. I tend to think it's still slanted slightly towards the jedi, but not as bad as last edition.

[Kizara]

At low levels, Jedi dominate if they take lots of force training. As you reach more mid and high levels, things even out pretty well. I tend to think it's still slanted slightly towards the jedi, but not as bad as last edition.

My understanding is that there is very little differenciation of characters in SAGA period. Jedi aren't unbalanced because, as Bag_of_holding put it, being jedi means little now mechanically: much like everything else.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Tsotha-lanti]

My understanding is that there is very little differenciation of characters in SAGA period. Jedi aren't unbalanced because, as Bag_of_holding put it, being jedi means little now mechanically: much like everything else.

Yes, that's kinda hugely wrong. A Jedi is going to be much better at fighting in melee than a Scoundrel, for instance, and a Jedi needs to spend less feats to get Force powers.

Characters are more balanced, but your class means everything, since it determines your talents (one for every other level) and bonus feats (one for every other level).

You've been listening to 4E-haters, haven't you?

[Zim]

Well, my SWSE group just finished their first adventure and made it to level 3. My observation is that Jedi rock the first few levels in HtH/close range, but it starts to level out a bit after as the threats get more HP/threshold. The rest of the PC's also catch up as well and the Jedi dominate the combat scene less and less.

There is also the extensive amount of non-combat time to consider. The few skill slots all but super genius Jedi have limit the number of things they can do when not busting heads. Most other classes (except soldier who is another primarily combat class) get lots of skills and find other ways to excel where the Jedi just doesn't have the resources to.

Jedi also have to be more careful of the Dark Side than other characters. Force powers are easy to abuse, and that makes for a slippery slope to NPC status.

All that being said, I think that SWSE was not very well play tested or thought out in many areas (if at all), especially force powers. IMO they should scale by class level like a D&D spellcasters caster level. That would even the playing field and keep it balanced throughout.

[Bag_of_Holding]

Yes, that's kinda hugely wrong. A Jedi is going to be much better at fighting in melee than a Scoundrel, for instance, and a Jedi needs to spend less feats to get Force powers.

Well, combat-wise, you're correct. Out of combat however, once-per-encounter nature of force powers doesn't seem to help much. Mind trick might be helpful but hitting that DC was dreadful :smallsigh:... No wonder why those Hutts are (in)famous for being good(evil) crimelords.

Meh, a scoundrel has little reason to go melee, anyway. :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, that's kinda hugely wrong. A Jedi is going to be much better at fighting in melee than a Scoundrel, for instance, and a Jedi needs to spend less feats to get Force powers.

Characters are more balanced, but your class means everything, since it determines your talents (one for every other level) and bonus feats (one for every other level).

You've been listening to 4E-haters, haven't you?

But a Scoundrel who multiclasses into Jedi is better at the Force or just gets the Force Feat powers is better at Use The Force than a Jedi. Why?
Scoundrels get that Lucky choice for a power adds +5 to a skill to end of encounter.
If choose UtF, you are +5 higher than the Jedi can ever hope to be (assuming both take Skill Focus). Costs a Force point, but you have so many as you level (and they reset each level): might as well.

[Bag_of_Holding]

But a Scoundrel who multiclasses into Jedi is better at the Force or just gets the Force Feat powers is better at Use The Force than a Jedi. Why?
Scoundrels get that Lucky choice for a power adds +5 to a skill to end of encounter.
If choose UtF, you are +5 higher than the Jedi can ever hope to be (assuming both take Skill Focus). Costs a Force point, but you have so many as you level (and they reset each level): might as well.

So Scoundrel 2/Jedi 5/Jedi Knight ... with Force Sensitive as her 1st feat (so she can get UTF as one of her trained skills) and Force Point Recovery as one of her Force Techniques would be a nice combination, eh?

[Talya]

You've been listening to 4E-haters, haven't you?


Hey, I don't like 4E, but I like Saga. Saga does feel...unfinished, a bit, though.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hey, I don't like 4E, but I like Saga. Saga does feel...unfinished, a bit, though.

Yeah, check this out: there are no rules for shooting into a grapple! They could have stolen the D&D rules, but it's just missing.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Hey, I don't like 4E, but I like Saga. Saga does feel...unfinished, a bit, though.

Well, it is d20 3.5 with a lot of 4E ideas bolted on. I like it better than 3.5, actually. (I've been considering applying two things, at least, to my Conan d20 games - taking away the BAB-based iterative attacks and replacing them with the feats, and adding in the "+1/2 level to damage" bit.)

[Attilargh]

They could have stolen the D&D rules, but it's just missing.
You mean the line hidden somewhere that reads something like "randomly determine the creature hit" and nothing else? Yeah, no thanks. In Saga grappling is just another option of melee combat, and nets melee combat's penalties to shooting. I like it that way, it's simple, easy to remember, and doesn't quite lead to Rancors using Ewoks for meatshields.

Regarding out-of-combat utility: With the right talents, Jedi can use UtF to replace a good deal of the skill list. While it does make sense when looking at the movies and the EU, it does make me wonder what the designers were thinking.

[Saph]

Regarding out-of-combat utility: With the right talents, Jedi can use UtF to replace a good deal of the skill list. While it does make sense when looking at the movies and the EU, it does make me wonder what the designers were thinking.

Yes, but Jedi get the lowest number of skills out of any of the five classes. And then they have to spend precious talent slots for each skill they want to replace with UtF. At early levels, each talent you're spending on that is one less talent you have to grab Block/Deflect/Redirect Shot.

It's still a good deal, but it costs you.

- Saph

[Attilargh]

And after actually reading the rules, I realized grabbing them all would require some insane Prestige Class hopping. So yeah, disregard me. *Jedi hand wave*