Ways to describe HP loss without a physical hit?

[Inyssius Tor]

(Quoth Jensun, on RPGnet:) "HP doesn't represent and never has represented pure physical damage. It represents a mixture of luck, skill, stamina and fortitude; the ability and willingness to keep on going, to push ahead despite the pain and the terror and the blood."

Describing a "hit" that actually causes physical damage is easy. English has tons of words like "crush" and "slash" and "rend" for the big attacks, and it's just as good at describing minor (or small but crucial) wounds.

However, most of those things will only be happening in the last few attacks of the battle. For a considerable portion of the fight, attacks will only be "wearing down" opponents, letting them dodge but decreasing their ability to fight back all the same.

The problem is that, while I can describe real hits both big and small, I'm not so good at this other kind--and I'm trying to improve my flavor, in preparation for starting a new group. So: how do you describe a mechanical "hit" that doesn't actually involve stabbing the enemy with your weapon?

[Adumbration]

Maybe knocking the wind out with a blunt weapon?

[Reel On, Love]

It depends on what's going on. Against another humanoid, it could be winning a clinch and sending them stumbling back, forcing them to frantically thow themselves aside to avoid a blow, your weapon bouncing off their armor particularily hard, things like that.

[drengnikrafe]

Are you refering to something along the lines of only dealing 1 damage because you hit their AC exactly, which would be, basically, barely wearing them down?

I can't really say I've ever tried to describe one of those, but I could give it a try...
"You rush forward, sword held high, and swing in a great arc at the goblin you have just found. He reacts with shock to see your approach, but still manages to step out of the curve of your blade. You still manage to skim his leg, though, and it looks like you've given him a nasty scare. You're pretty sure you've lowered his life expectancy by about 3 years, if you weren't about to kill him".

Or, if you manage to kill it, but your barely broke AC, you could always describe it as...
"You can see his eyes widen as the knife sticks in the tree, 2 inches away from his face. He collapses in a heap of shivering fear, but shortly thereafter ceases movement. You're pretty sure you gave the poor kid a heart attack, and he won't be getting up anytime soon".

But, like I said, no real experience. I just wanted to add my 2 cp on it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Just out of curiosity, is there anything wrong with just seeing HP loss as real injuries? While it would be semi-plausible to have all weapon attacks deflected or avoided up to the killing blow, it doesn't make sense with magical damage (also, healing spells specifically refer to wounds). I'll tell you if I can think of anymore ideas in regards to your question, but I'd say Adumbration's answer should be fine.

[Inyssius Tor]

Just out of curiosity, is there anything wrong with just seeing HP loss as real injuries? While it would be semi-plausible to have all weapon attacks deflected or avoided up to the killing blow, it doesn't make sense with magical damage (also, healing spells specifically refer to wounds)

Well, there are occasional minor suspension-of-disbelief things that I'm too tired to talk about, but one issue is that 4th edition looks like it will make it harder to classify HP as physical wounds--like nonmagical healing surges or some of the paladin's abilities. (He has a Knight's Challenge thing that deals radiant damage each round to an opponent who doesn't attack him, which makes me imagine his god hovering over the battlefield and poking his foe with one massive finger every six seconds...)

Also, great replies so far, everyone. Very helpful.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for telling me (ironically, I thought the idea of blocking attacks which are able to get past your AC which fatigue you was worse for suspending disbelief). It makes more sense for 4th Edition due to the changes you mentioned (I haven't been following it that much due to not liking what I've seen of it so far).

[DrowVampyre]

For physical damage:

You hit the opponent's shield with a cry of force, and he grimaces in pain, giving the arm bearing his shield a few shakes to dislodge the numbness induced by your blow.

The swordsman blocks your attack, but its force sends him stumbling back a few steps, and his face shines with sweat not present a few moments before.

Your axe slams into the opponent's breastplate, driving the air from his lungs with a grunt and placing a nasty dent in the previously flawless surface. Backpedaling, he reestablishes his guard, but his shoulders slump more than before.

For magical damage:

The orc manages to cover his face and turn his body just as the flames from your fireball engulf him, and as the afterimage of the fire fades from your vision, you see him snarl at you, his arms badly burnt and his hair singed but his eyes gleaming with fury.

Your acid arrow splashes on the hobgonlin's pauldron, splattering his neck and face. With a roar of agony, he rips the bubbling metal from his shoulder and tosses it aside glaring hatred at you through the thin haze of smoke the acid has brought from his sizzling skin.

Your lightning bolt sails for the ogre's chest, but it manages to sidestep at the last moment. Though the evasive step spares the creature's life, the crackling bolt skims across his torso, leaving a blackened line in its wake and making his hair stand on end. He stalks toward you unsteadily, the arm lifting his club twitching uncontrollably, the odor of ozone and burnt flesh almost as bad as the ogre's usual stench.

[Nebo_]

For physical damage:

You hit the opponent's shield with a cry of force, and he grimaces in pain, giving the arm bearing his shield a few shakes to dislodge the numbness induced by your blow.

The swordsman blocks your attack, but its force sends him stumbling back a few steps, and his face shines with sweat not present a few moments before.

Your axe slams into the opponent's breastplate, driving the air from his lungs with a grunt and placing a nasty dent in the previously flawless surface. Backpedaling, he reestablishes his guard, but his shoulders slump more than before.

For magical damage:

The orc manages to cover his face and turn his body just as the flames from your fireball engulf him, and as the afterimage of the fire fades from your vision, you see him snarl at you, his arms badly burnt and his hair singed but his eyes gleaming with fury.

Your acid arrow splashes on the hobgonlin's pauldron, splattering his neck and face. With a roar of agony, he rips the bubbling metal from his shoulder and tosses it aside glaring hatred at you through the thin haze of smoke the acid has brought from his sizzling skin.

Your lightning bolt sails for the ogre's chest, but it manages to sidestep at the last moment. Though the evasive step spares the creature's life, the crackling bolt skims across his torso, leaving a blackened line in its wake and making his hair stand on end. He stalks toward you unsteadily, the arm lifting his club twitching uncontrollably, the odor of ozone and burnt flesh almost as bad as the ogre's usual stench.

The key word in the thread title is 'without'. Those were all hits. Well described hits, but hits nonetheless.

[BRC]

"You are now 23% below industry standard in the face department. You feel less healthy"

[Reel On, Love]

Why wouldn't you describe hits, anyway? Hits that don't actually wound are one of the best ways to describe HP damage.

[Orzel]

There's always morale loss.
A hit could actually miss the target but be close enough and that it might make the target demoralized enough to not block the next few attacks well.

"Your sword almost hits the elf's neck due to his quick reflexes. Doom fills his big brown eyes and fear flows through his breath. He won't have the heart to dodge your blade like that again."

"The swordsman barely parries your blade once again. She knows she can't keep this up much longer and her morale starts to fade."

[DrowVampyre]

The key word in the thread title is 'without'. Those were all hits. Well described hits, but hits nonetheless.

Depends on what you define as a hit, I suppose. I don't consider something that strikes armor but finds no gap a real "hit," but rather the armor doing its job...just that it can't do its job indefinitely like that. ^_- But I do see the "physical contact = hit" viewpoint, too.

Basically, I guess my opinion on it is that hits prior to those "almost dead hits are still making contact, they're just not causing serious harm...but they're wearing the enemy down. They're the grazing hits of action movies, the little cut on the cheek, the shallow slash on the leg, the blocked attack that still staggers, the slash that leaves a mark on the breastplate (if you've seen Troy, you know what I mean).

I suppose you could represent HP loss by things like...very close dodges, where the enemy's stumbling back and looking really worried after, or a series of parries with their movement getting slower as fatigue sets in. The problem I come to with that is that...well...there can be secondary effects. If you do Con damage (say with a Wounding weapon), then you have to actually touch the enemy, even if it's one of those "doesn't cause serious injury" touches like I mentioned above. Poison would have the same thing - your weapon needs to touch them even if it doesn't land a solid hit.

[Ashtar]

The Minotaur raises it's huge club and brings it down on you. At the last second, you deflect the blow off your pauldron and watch it crack the time worn tiles of the temple floor.

The team of halfling assassins press you, forcing you to doge furiously their storm of blows. You can feel your muscles complaining of the strain and your lungs burning. With dread you realize that you probably won't be able to evade the next assault.

[Demented]

The sheer difficulty of describing HP loss without a physical hit means you need to come up with different excuses for different sources of hitpoint loss. This especially since you're going with an 'impure' stance where sufficient damage eventually results in physical damage.


(He has a Knight's Challenge thing that deals radiant damage each round to an opponent who doesn't attack him, which makes me imagine his god hovering over the battlefield and poking his foe with one massive finger every six seconds...)

Their fear/hesitation/weakness becomes them, destroying their physical faculties. As they take damage, they become unsteady, stumbling and faltering in combat until they eventually faint.

Or, alternately, the Paladin just yells profanities about their cowardice, until they collapse, grovelling and bleeding profusely from their ears.

[Rutee]

I'd probably prefer to try to keep Morale /loss/ out of HP loss when possible; I prefer that to be the province of a character or enemy intentionally working to demoralize them. That, however, is personal preference.

[Draz74]

How about just, "You manage to dodge the blow, but you have to work hard to catch your breath after shifting out of the way so suddenly. You feel worn out by the strenuous effort. You might even pull a muscle if you keep pulling stunts like that."

[KillianHawkeye]

I suppose you could represent HP loss by things like...very close dodges, where the enemy's stumbling back and looking really worried after, or a series of parries with their movement getting slower as fatigue sets in. The problem I come to with that is that...well...there can be secondary effects. If you do Con damage (say with a Wounding weapon), then you have to actually touch the enemy, even if it's one of those "doesn't cause serious injury" touches like I mentioned above. Poison would have the same thing - your weapon needs to touch them even if it doesn't land a solid hit.

Well, if you feel the need to do so, you can certainly describe those hits in a fashion that involves actually hitting.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if you had time, you could certainly go back and write a novelization of last week's D&D session where you describe every artful swing and graceful dodge in varied detail, but during gameplay it just isn't necessary to describe every roll of the dice in such a manner.

Most of the time, it's sufficient to say "You swing your longsword at the hobgoblin, but it bounces harmlessly off his armor" or "You bash the orc with your mace, and it grunts in pain." Keep it short and sweet. Combat takes long enough as is. :smallwink:

[Tengu]

How about just, "You manage to dodge the blow, but you have to work hard to catch your breath after shifting out of the way so suddenly. You feel worn out by the strenuous effort. You might even pull a muscle if you keep pulling stunts like that."

I second that. HP loss, up to a certain point, can represent not wounds, but exhaustion.

[Citizen Joe]

Hit points to not realistically model health. Thus, using realistic descriptions won't apply well to the HP model. So you may as well have every hit be a catastrophic injury that the guy just shrugs off.

[Saeveo]

I'd probably prefer to try to keep Morale /loss/ out of HP loss when possible; I prefer that to be the province of a character or enemy intentionally working to demoralize them. That, however, is personal preference.

Besides, it'd interfere with a lot of the fluff for existing abilities and spells. Bless for instance "fills a character with courage". So if HD represents Morale, then obviously you should regain some HP, right? Hell, ostensibly, anything that gives a morale bonus should heal you, as well.

[Rutee]

I think that's what everything with a morale bonus does in 4e, actually. But my reason for keeping Morale loss from HP is that I'm tilted towards Hot Blooded (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotBlooded) characters. For a non-hot blooded character (And there are still quite a few), I could take Morale loss. :P

[Learnedguy]

The key word in the thread title is 'without'. Those were all hits. Well described hits, but hits nonetheless.

Yeah. but those were badass hits. The kind that you want more of, because there more you get, the bigger and badder you become:smallcool:

Anyway, I thought Drowvampire's descriptions were pretty good. Damage, yes. But not fatal stuff, just "grimace and walk away" stuff. Especially good when fighting monstrous enemies who really shouldn't be sidestepping stuff.

[Saeveo]

I think that's what everything with a morale bonus does in 4e, actually. But my reason for keeping Morale loss from HP is that I'm tilted towards Hot Blooded (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotBlooded) characters. For a non-hot blooded character (And there are still quite a few), I could take Morale loss. :P

Heh, awesome. It's appropriate to apply TVTropes to absolutely everything. Including game rules. :smallbiggrin:

Now I just need to see if my DM will let my character literally Take a Level in Badass. (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TookALevelInBadass)

[Tengu]

Now I just need to see if my DM will let my character literally Take a Level in Badass. (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TookALevelInBadass)

Easy if you're a wizard or artificer and playing Eberron. You just need to be evil (Bad) and take a level in the alchemist savant PRC (AS).

[Saeveo]

Easy if you're a wizard or artificer and playing Eberron. You just need to be evil (Bad) and take a level in the alchemist savant PRC (AS).

I feel a great disturbance, as if millions of voices suddenly groaned.... :smalltongue:

[Roderick_BR]

Maybe use subdual damage for exaustion? I saw some games with similar rules. Fight for hours on end, get several punchs to the arm, carry something very heavy, and you take non-lethal damage.

[Flickerdart]

Or, alternately, the Paladin just yells profanities about their cowardice, until they collapse, grovelling and bleeding profusely from their ears.
Combined with the lack of an Alignment system, and I'm totally playing a foul-mouthed, sassy Paladin when 4e rolls around.

[TempusCCK]

Here's the thing I've been thinking about... if you can deal damage to "Hit" points by causing them morale damage, then couldn't you also make them take damage with intimidate checks?

I mean, you can intimidate someone enough to make them not want to make a move on you, if you can make vicious attacks that cause them to lose HP by the moral abstract, intimidate would logically be able to do so as well.

[Worira]

Casting heat metal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heatMetal.htm) would go something like this:

His human likeness departs from him. When the momentary red passes, you see a charred, blackened figure, its head streaked with blood, still clutching and fumbling with the chain, and writhing in agony--a cindery animal, an inhuman, monstrous creature that begins a sobbing, intermittent shriek. And, uh, he's not really hurt, just fatigued. Or something.

Apologies to Mr. Wells.

[Theodoxus]

Well, if you feel the need to do so, you can certainly describe those hits in a fashion that involves actually hitting.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if you had time, you could certainly go back and write a novelization of last week's D&D session where you describe every artful swing and graceful dodge in varied detail, but during gameplay it just isn't necessary to describe every roll of the dice in such a manner.

Most of the time, it's sufficient to say "You swing your longsword at the hobgoblin, but it bounces harmlessly off his armor" or "You bash the orc with your mace, and it grunts in pain." Keep it short and sweet. Combat takes long enough as is. :smallwink:

QFT - what is with all this mamby-pamby joy joy feel good crap. Damn it, in my day, we did 9 points of damage with a sword and were darn happy. No 'with a mighty swing, you lop off the fourth toe of goblin standing before you. It yelps in pain and stabs you in the eye. No seriously, the eye. Yeah, you're dead - dice don't lie man. Roll a new character.' gah.

[GrassyGnoll]

You thankfully hit the ground before the troll's club occupies the space you used to be. Your heart is racing and you feel queasy faced with the prospect of imminent squishy death.

[Newtkeeper]

I second that. HP loss, up to a certain point, can represent not wounds, but exhaustion.

Exhaustion so exhausting that it can transfer poison from a poisoned weapon? Or does Injury Poison mean Proximity Poison?

[doorknobdeity]

The team of halfling assassins press you, forcing you to doge furiously their storm of blows. You can feel your muscles complaining of the strain and your lungs burning. With dread you realize that you probably won't be able to evade the next assault.

This I like.

[Draz74]

Exhaustion so exhausting that it can transfer poison from a poisoned weapon? Or does Injury Poison mean Proximity Poison?

How many times must I post that the problem here is with the Injury Poison rules, not the HP system?

[Worira]

And the falling damage rules, and the lava immersion rules, and the Heat/Chill Metal rules, and the healing spell rules, and the stunning fist rules, and the swallow whole rules, and the swarm rules, and the wait no. It's the HP system.

[MeklorIlavator]

Exhaustion so exhausting that it can transfer poison from a poisoned weapon? Or does Injury Poison mean Proximity Poison?

Strawman much?
He's not saying that every attack should be described the same way. Hp is an abstraction of many things, and thus, you should describe it in many ways, or else the abstraction breaks down.

[Draz74]

And the falling damage rules, and the lava immersion rules, and the Heat/Chill Metal rules, and the healing spell rules, and the stunning fist rules, and the swallow whole rules, and the swarm rules, and the wait no. It's the HP system.

... OK, fair enough. The problem is bigger than I was making it out to be.

HP represent completely different things inside and outside of combat in 3e. In combat they're abstract. Outside of combat, they represent real injuries and bodily damage. Stupid? Yes. But still with some consistency.

Injury Poisons (and, I guess, healing magic) deserve special mention because they try to mix these two things together and make them both work at the same time. Ick.

Mind you, this also all depends on your play style. You can (in 3e, not really in 4e) play where HP aren't abstract, and always represent physical wounds. But many of us, myself included, just can't suspend our disbelief enough to enjoy a playstyle where,
"Your level 8 Barbarian with 18 CON pulls two war arrows out of his spleen, one out of his aorta, and one out of his brain cavity (through the eye), pelts out a mighty war cry, and dives back into the fight with renewed vigor, ignoring all the arrows that are just stuck in his arms and legs and stuff and make him look like a porcupine."

[MeklorIlavator]

Mind you, this also all depends on your play style. You can (in 3e, not really in 4e) play where HP aren't abstract, and always represent physical wounds. But many of us, myself included, just can't suspend our disbelief enough to enjoy a playstyle where,
"Your level 8 Barbarian with 18 CON pulls two war arrows out of his spleen, one out of his aorta, and one out of his brain cavity (through the eye), pelts out a mighty war cry, and dives back into the fight with renewed vigor, ignoring all the arrows that are just stuck in his arms and legs and stuff and make him look like a porcupine."

Sounds like NWN. I have fond memories of my rogues running around with 3-4 arrows coming out of her head.:smallbiggrin:

[Demented]

If porcupine barbarians are an issue, I fully recommend only playing with level 1 characters.
If you're wondering how you're supposed to represent characters with more experience, never fear! The toughness and dodge feats are now actually useful!


What's the problem with that, anyways?
If your level 8 barbarian can't handle three arrows in his spleen, then how is he supposed to out-grapple an owlbear? (Level 8 Barbarian, 18 Strength, Improved Grapple. Easy.)

[Draz74]

If porcupine barbarians are an issue, I fully recommend only playing with level 1 characters.
If you're wondering how you're supposed to represent characters with more experience, never fear! The toughness and dodge feats are now actually useful!

Huh.

I've heard of E6, but I must admit, E1 never occurred to me before.

[DrowVampyre]

And the falling damage rules, and the lava immersion rules, and the Heat/Chill Metal rules, and the healing spell rules, and the stunning fist rules, and the swallow whole rules, and the swarm rules, and the wait no. It's the HP system.

Falling damage (nonlethal despite terminal velocity having been reached): As you fall, your life flashes before your eyes. Most of it goes by in a blur, but one incident sticks out in your thoughts, replaying itself over and over: the time you walked in on your grandparents in the bedroom after they'd gotten ahold of a very precisely targeted scroll of flesh to stone. The image remains locked in your mind's eye, and your shriek as a child then is echoed in the present at the same high-pitched, glassbreaking tone. Luckily for you, the sheer volume of air coming out of your mouth is enough to slow your fall and save you from being turned into a gooey red spot on the ground...you live, but take 4 points of Wisdom damage. :smallbiggrin:

Lava immersion: ...You successfully disbelieve and realize that the searing lava in the volcano is actually just unpleasantly warm mud? >_> <_< *shrugs*

Healing spell: Your arm's off! But after the cleric tends your injury, you realize 'tis but a scratch. You'll not have to bite the yellow bastard's legs off. This time.

Swallow whole: While the creature's blood burns like the most potent of acids, as you slide down its gullet you realize that its digestive juices, while less than pleasant to the nose, are far less dangerous than you'd imagined, and the contractions of its stomach muscles, rather than crushing you as you would think, given its enormous size, are actually rather pleasant and soothing. Still, you realize it's your enemy, and so you cut your way out, only to discover that its abdominal wall is made of something akin to Mighty Putty (tm) when it seals itself up without any apparent effort. You are filled with the desire to order some of your own the next time you come across the advertisement in a scrying crystal.

[Newtkeeper]

Strawman much?
He's not saying that every attack should be described the same way. Hp is an abstraction of many things, and thus, you should describe it in many ways, or else the abstraction breaks down.

But you must be sure to describe it in a way consistent with the rules. If there is no effect going on that would differentiate between a scrape and a near miss, then there's no problem calling it a near miss. If there is an effect that would differentiate, better be careful.

Oh, and if the poison rules are a problem, I'm open to better ideas.

And if HP are different in combat and out of it, what happens when you fall/are immersed in lava in combat?

Mind, I have no suggested fixes (except go play something else), but if someone does, I'm all ears (or rather eyes, as I'm reading rather than listening).

[Arbitrarity]

Hm. Injury poison on an arrow...

You take a arrow, dipped in that most fatal of poisons, that of the black lotus, to the stomach. You groan, and fall, and your comrades gasp at this surely fatal gut wound. But fear not! "I'm not dead yet!" you cry, and as the cleric begins to restore your body from the poison, you continue, "And I'm getting better!"

[Citizen Joe]

I've heard that they are front loading HP's in 4th edition. Those could represent 'actual' damage, whereas everything else is like an ablative shield.

I suppose you could divide up hps. Maybe the first 10 or so are actual injuries. These can be healed with a cure moderate wounds. Toughness would add to these kind of HPs. The subzero HP's would be serious or critical wounds. HP's higher than 10 would be effectively luck or skill in dodging blows. Those HPs would be curable with Cure Light Wounds. In any case, you'd have to get through the light hp's first, then the moderate and finally down into the serious/critical stuff. Likewise, you'd need to cure stuff in that order as well. I dunno, sounds a lot like the vitality system. It would need some tweaks to the spells and rules. Then there are the non-humanoid monsters and the effects on them.