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Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 08:19 AM
Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo’s Guide to Monks
Making the Most of What you Have (When Casters Believe What They Have Is Already Ridiculously Good)

“We need to be enlightened by the OMFGWTFBBQ Ultimate Monk Build” – Solo

FIRST POST: 5-17-2008
FIRST UPDATE: 5-22-2008
SECOND UPDATE: 5-25-2008
THIRD UPDATE: 6-13-2008
FOURTH UPDATE: 6-14-2008
Note: This is the REAL guide, not the cheap copy Azerian Kelimon posted on the WoTC boards...:smallcool:

45 pages! And still rising...:smallcool:

I. Introduction

Face it. If you play a non-caster, a monk in particular, chances are that caster players or wizard fans will laugh in your face, try to mop the floor with you and have a chat with a fellow caster while doing it (range: unlimited). Ever since the logicninja’s Batman concept hit the boards (and likely before that), casters and wizards in particular seem to be UBER. More astoundingly, actually, often even the non-casting classes appear to be a way more viable choice for...everything: fighting, scouting, etc.
And, to add insult to injury, it appears as if the 4th edition gave up on monks altogether.
However, this guide is intended to provide some ideas to make monks (and you can easily apply stuff found here to other non-casters) more of a challenge/fun to play throughout all levels. Feel free to add ideas and comments!

Specifically, it can be a guide for, say,
- players, when you play a monk in a party with highly-powered casters – and thus also highly-powered caster oppostion (basically, a proof vs said players kindly asking to play a caster instead lest you spoil their fun)
- DMs, create some npc monk challenges to your caster players
- Overall inspiration to show the monk is definitely balanced with all other core classes EDITED NOTE: This means that what this guide is NOT about, is showing that the monk is STRONGER than other classes.

For simplicity and better usability in most campaigns, as well as help for beginning players (as well as my own limited purse to buy rule books), I’ll restrict it to generally available core rules (PHB, DMG, MM, SRD excepting psionics and divine domain rules) – so no celerity combos, timestopped maws of chaos (whatever that is) on the caster side and no belt of extra actions, vows of xy or or feats that push your damage to the colossal lvl 18 monk size by level 9. If you wish to (ab)use all the many great companions out there, you should still be able to use the principles outlined here as a source of ideas.

EDIT4:
Before reading on and doubting monk power, pls first read the
Monk Rules FAQ
Additionally, there are a great many links down in the Appendix of this Monk's Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4333828&postcount=3) - both to external sources, and to WITHIN this ever-growing thread, to check whether your question has already been answered somewhere.

Throughout this thread, you'll find a lot of denial, sometimes based on different playing experience, but sometimes also on rules misperceptions. This lists tries to clarify the latter. I already once did a summary after 32 pages (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402865&postcount=954).
Basically, many posters started their criticism based on assumptions that by now I proved to be false. And still they never change their views, which is in part responsible for the length of this thread.

NOTE: For general monk and core game misperceptions and fallacies (imo) check below the chapter II.2. "Monk Myths"

1. Can the monk flurry his grappling checks?
Yes. More grappling attempts are based on base attack bonus, and the monk's flurry results in a modified base attack bonus (see the monk class description). Check also the 3.5 FAQ p. 20 which clearly outlines grappling as a possibility in a flurry to do in place of an attack.
And for those remaining doubters, Lord Silvanos is quoting the Rules Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4344958&postcount=519) to support the notion that you can flurry in a grapple.

2. How can the monk be good at grappling? He needs to hit first with a melee attack roll!
No. He actually needs a melee TOUCH attack roll, where his lower BAB matters much less.

3. Can the monk make use of any move enhancements? After all, his move his an enhancement bonus which stacks with nothing.
Actually, the monk's movement enhancement is added to all forms of movement - swim, climb, fly, burrow - you name it. The most common form is get access to fly (60ft speed), on which the enhancement bonus is added. Note that the barbarian's higher move is not an enhancement bonus, so it would stack with the monk's bonus in multiclassing.

4. Can the monk ever get an enhancement bonus to his unarmed strike with magic items and/or permanently?
Yes. First of all, you can get greater magic fang or magic fang permanencie'd on your monk.
The more resilient way (vs dispels at least) is, though, to get gauntlets. Now there is a big debate raging on whether a gauntlet can be considered an unarmed strike (the gauntlet description suggests so), although many (like Lord_Silvanos) would argue that the gauntlet is a simple weapon proficiency, and thus needs to be learned separately with a feat by the monk.
What the gauntlet does, though, is deal unarmed damage as per monk unarmed damage table IN ADDITION to any enhancements it is enchanted with. Just like other weapons as well.
Somewhere in the 3.5 FAQ, though, it was ruled that gauntlets are not a monk weapon and thus cannot be flurried. You can deliver stunning fist attacks with it, though (without the "ki" enchantment).

5. Can the monk hit an incorporal creature with his ki strike - magic?
No, unfortunately not. He'll need to either enchant his fists (or other parts of his body) with a magic enhancement bonus like magic fang or magic weapon, to at least get only a 50% miss chance. Or get a magic monk weapon for emergency.

6. Spell Resistance and Perfect Self appear to have some drawbacks. What are they?
Spell Resistance can be dangerous for buffing, in particular inside combat. For buffs with the "harmless" SR descriptor, the monk needs to lower his SR with a standard action. In rare circumstances, for buffs like enlarge (a key one), the SR cannot even be lowered. So you'll need to get some tricks (found in this guide) to get by. Luckily, those buffs cast by the monk are unaffected by his SR. And, the key buffs like divine power do not even have an SR entry, so they just work fine throughout all SR levels.
Perfect Self at level 20 also prevents enlarge PERSON, since you're now considered an outsider for magical effects.

7. The monk gets either improved grapple or stunning fist, as well as others at level 2 and 6 as bonus feats without meeting the requirements. What does that mean?
Actually, in core 3.5, these are fairly rare boons. It means the monk needs no high stats that are otherwise minimum requirements in those feats. This can mean that in enlarged form (DEX -2), the monk needs not have a DEX of 15 from the start to keep the improved grapple feat, a great advantage over any other class trying to specialise in grappling.

8. I heard that the monk receives the highest base damage in the game. Is that true? And will this be enough to be in line with the extra damage from sneak (rogue), rage (barbarian) and power attack (barbarian, fighter with TH-Weapons)?
Yes and yes.
The monk eventually, with a monk’s belt, will by level 15 have the highest medium sized base damage in the game, at 2d10. Actually, at level 6 already with the improved natural attack feat, at 3d6. This base damage is multiplied in a critical (unlike the rogue’s sneak attack) and applies always (unlike the rogue’s sneak attack- which is blocked by a simple concealment). By level 15, you’ll have enlarged a base damage of 6d8 (rougly in line with the 8d6 damage the rogue deals as sneak), which is enough to keep you in line with the big fighter and, at times, even barbarian damage dealers due to
- higher number of attacks with
- higher number of highest BAB attacks
- and with divine power, equal BAB to the full BAB classes.
As an aside, in this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4435842&postcount=1133), even Solo admits that the monk can outdamage the fighter in core

9. What exactly makes you think the monk is the best grappler? What about the barbarian?
The rules make me think so. The monk gets the following advantages over a barbarian.
- improved grapple as a bonus feat, so he does not need DEX 15 to keep an enlarge effect in a grapple. In other words, he has likely higher base STR than the barbarian, in particular when with the high STR, you also wish to take improved trip (which is a gain a bonus feat for the monk, but necessitates INT 13 for everyone else, plus expertise as another feat cost).
- The monk gets by far the highest unarmed damage in the game. So he deals more damage per won grapple check. This is not even overcome by the barbarian using an armour spike in a grapple (which by RAW only applies to the initial grapple ATTACK, not subsequent checks).
- The monk gets the highest number of grapple attempts, since he can flurry (see above). This can overcome already a 2-3 difference in the grapple check.
- At higher levels, grappling becomes somewhat unreliable (vs freedom of movement and huge size+ monsters). Thus, the barbarian having poured two of his feats into this combat technique would wish to have rather taken weapon focus and cleave to complement with his power attack.
- The rage of a barbarian only lasts for one encounter, after which he gets a STR penalty and is fatigued. In direct grappling contest this means that the monk with higher move, hide, spot, move silently and listen can actually evade the barbarian, wait out the rage and return when he is fatigued.
- Eventually, the BAB disadvantage can be overcome with a divine power effect for the monk.
- And before you wonder – while a monk may use power attack with unarmed strikes, power attack cannot be applied to grapple checks (only to unarmed strikes, albeit at the usual -4 penalty in a grapple).

10. Eversmoking bottle – what can be done and what not?
The following things are RAW, no matter how much batman’s fans try to squirm around it:
a. The eversmoking bottle provides full concealment. So no more line of sight, no more targeting, and 50% miss chance with ray attacks (provided you can pinpoint at all the silently moving monk in the smoke with the batman’s meagre listen check).
b. The eversmoking bottle creates smoke. Smoke effects are outlined in the DMG and SRD – you need to either hold your breath (for a no. of rounds equal to your CON score, see Swim skill description), or when doing stuff like spellcasting, you’ll have to do a FORT save every round, with DC +1 for every round. When you fail, you spend the round coughing and choking, meaning you can no longer cast spells with vocal component (you need a loud, clear voice for that).
c. A gust of wind CANNOT get rid of the smoke for long, only for 1 round – and only in the area of the spell effect. Ditto the wall of wind, which is static and will only get the smoke away in the area of effect. Whirlwind attacks by air elementals can entirely disperse the smoke for the FEW ROUNDS that they can keep up their attack. After that, the smoke resumes. The only thing able to disperse the smoke constantly (for 10 min/lvl) is the druid and air cleric (divine) control winds spell, which usually is not at the disposal of batman.

11. OK. Assuming the joker monk made it all the way to the very high levels to face Batman. What will he do against Batman always going first thanks to Moment of Prescience? And Contingency-DimensionDoor in case he loses initiative? And what about Foresight, extended?
Simple.
a. Moment of Prescience does not apply to initiative checks, which are not opposed skill checks. This is clear from the RAW , Lord_Silvanos solidly supported it in this thread. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4439705&postcount=1253
b. Contingency is highly tricky for two reasons. The first is that you hardly know when that initiative thing gets tritggered. It could be a bar brawl, a rat attacking you. Puff, contingency gone. The more complicated thing is that you hardly ever know the setting where the contingency goes off. Dimension door needs exact dimensions where you want to go AT THE MOMENT YOU CAST THE SPELL. So you can only say “100ft up, and 50ft to the south”. Which could mean you end up where you do not wish to be.
c. Foresight is good to prevent that likely surprise round of the monk (he is much stealthier at those levels, even true seeing and see invisbiltiy do not help vs hide!). However, to keep that up 24/7, even extended, the wizard will need almost all his 9th level slots.

12. What about partially charged wands? How can they be even possible? And why do you assume a "magic mart" campaign here?
DMG p. 199 explicitly allows new players entering the game at a higher level to choose partially charged wands. So choosing partially charged wands for equipment is assumed to happen for pcs in the game.
DMG pp. 212-215 outlines how magic items should be handled. At the bottom of page 214 even the process of pricing a partially charged wand is explained and that player characters can of course sell them when having found them in treasures. Now, I wonder, if they can sell them why should they not be able to buy them? Why should there be only a market for new cars, but not for used ones? And why should used items be less common than new ones? Plus, on p. 214 a linear rule for gold price determination is applied - showing that there are no additional scarcity effects for wands with less charges.
By providing item gold piece prices (and not some sort of "relative power units") , as well as item availabiltiy table in DMG on p. 137, the game assumes that characters, at least between adventures in cities of appropriate size can obtain equipment as appropriate by their wbl.


Ah, and let us not forget: the monk while focusing on what this class can do greatly (being a bane to casters) should not become an idiot specialist. He/she (for simplicity, and with due respect to the female posters here, I’ll use the male abbreviation henceforth throughout if you forgive me…) has also to fight monsters and other non-casters. While the monk might be ideal to specialise in overcoming magic-reliant opponents (it’s simply a facet of the PHB recommendations of spy, assassin, infiltrator and opportunist combatant), some tricks should help him survive long enough to actually reach that enemy caster through his minions. Or in a caster-rare (not magic-poor!) campaign. Or whatever.

Here it comes…

II. The Very Basics of Monkery

As logicninja has immortally put it:
“The traditional adventuring party has four people, filling the roles of Meat-Shield, Skill-Monkey, Heal-Bitch, and Batman.
You're--as Frank Miller put--the goddamn Batman.”

As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the goddamn Joker!
Relying on tricks and unusual stuff to overcome the physically…er magically stronger Batman. Perform is even a class skill, so you could tell some jokes to entertain your desperate enemies and awestruck adventuring teammates while you squish the casters and face everything else as easily as other non-casters.

1. Key Insights on Giamonk strategy (and: what the Joker would say….)

1) “Where does he get those wonderful toys?” – The Joker
Be prepared for a harsh truth: Magic is cheap in core 3.5. And the “Giamonk” (courtesy Kurald Galain) intends to make full use of it. In that way, he is quite close to the classic gish…
The Batman may think he is special, but in a magic world as envisioned in the core 3.5 rules, everyone will want to have magic. And everyone gets it, thanks to four major goodies for all classes
- fellow pc casting. This is the way assumed by the game (for instance, the enlarge spell has almost no use for the sorcerer or wizard, but it is greatly helpful for fighting characters). In many instances, though, the non-caster or monk needs to be on his own..
- npc casting (this could be helped by, but does not need the leadership feat)
- wealth by level guidelines and thus, permanent magic items
- Use Magic Device (UMD), either cross-class or class. It does not really matter, since the greatest bargains, the wands simulating ALL 1-4 spell levels are safely usable with just a UMD score of +19. And even one rank of UMD and total bonus of +0 will allow you to eventually activate a wand…only a “1” rolled without +19 UMD will mean stopping to use that item for the day, but you could carry several for the same effect, lowering your risk greatly. Wands are the cheapest way for non-casters to obtain non-pc buffs. Based on the usual casting and spell levels of arcane and divine spells, level 1 spells, it is 15 gp per use, for level 2 spells 90 gp, for level 3 spells 225 gp and for level 4 spells 420 gp.

Additionally, while you can for a long while not safely activate a wand in one round (meaning in combat you often cannot use it reasonably), you can still make use of:
- longer-lasting buff spells (10 mins/lvl & up)
- short-lasting buff spells when you have the opportunity to buff up before combat (say, enlarge wand)
- instantaneous spells usable between combat without stress (healing, research)
- touch spells with “holding the charge” use. This is something where the non-casters would even surpass the casters since they 1) have better hitting chances and 2) they most often do not cast spells in between, ending “the charge”.
Some of the great things for a monk using wands:
- you can grapple while using/holding wands (even in both hands)
- you can do all your unarmed strikes while holding wands (even in both hands)

This basically gets you everything you need. For the higher spell levels, either get
- scrolls or
- other casters casting (via npc spellcasters, cohort spellcasters or team member spellcasters).
If all fails, level the playing field, either with AMF or lower-level effects (yes, there are some, see below).
Plus, there are some fairly cheap single spells that can shut down the effects of whole schools of magic:
- mind blank (enchantment, divination)
- true seeing (illusions, excepting the real part of shadow magic)
- death ward (necromancy)
- wall of force (all conjuration/evocation/necromancy/transmutation/phantasm/shadow attacks)
Some of those are available in existing magic items (true seeing, wall of force, death ward), some could be available as custom items (explicit DM’s approval).

EDIT: concerning coutertactics by Batman like dispel magic and mage's disjunction (at VERY high levels, level 17&up!)
- dispels need a target. This can get stopped by total concealment and reduced in chance by blink and mirror image effects.
- mage's disjunction allows a will save, which happens to be the highest save of the monk at very high levels.

Make use of one of the biggest balancing insights of the game: magic is cheap, and can counter magic easily! Batman got the most recent computer technology…eh spell innovation? Well, get the same stuff cheap!

So here, in a nutshell, are the two Giamonk principles:
1. Get spells that synergise greatly with the monk abilites
2. Get items that synergise greatly with the monk abilities

2) “And where...and where...is the Batman?” – The Joker
Some things that will help you in your noble quests to make life miserable for casters:
You have spot and listen as class skills (only the druid on the caster side can compete here). So since ALL casters have no move silently skill, they can try to use invisibility, but at high levels you can still pinpoint them. Before that, simply use see invisibility or cheaper faerie fire wands, which are a bargain when you know that someone is around invisibly (which requires only a simple listen check).
Alternatively, you can make caster life quite tough by simply obscuring their (whatever magically-enhanced) perception abilities, too – it blocks most of what they can do to attack. A simple smokestick does the trick at low levels. Better stuff is available at higher levels (see also the advanced monkery below in part III.)
It also helps that you will thus not only likely be the one with a surprise round vs casters (and my, does your range for a partial charge extend the higher you rise in level!), You can also often go first in regular rounds as well (if you have good DEX and the improved initiative feat). Against monster manual casters and monsters, you most likely do.
Only at very high levels, when the 9th level foresight spell could be up quite often on the caster side, things will start to get complicated…

3) “And where…and where….is the Joker?”
There is one vital thing about how to survive in combat at all levels for the monk:
Control. The. Encounter.
There are basically two sets of class abilities that let you do it:
- the combination of the skills spot/listen, meaning more likely than not that YOU will surprise the enemy instead of the the other way round.
- the combination of move silently/hide and your superior move skill that lets you move out of the range of the enemy while still keeping close to him , waiting for an opening.
Some wizard fans will fantasise about “casters flying out of range invisibly and raining death from above” while a monk using the same tactics in a different manner is called “fleeing”. You know why. Because it’s what they fear most:
Someone simply waiting out their buffs and spell defenses – and with ranks in Spellcraft as a monk you can actually have a chance to gauge how long that particular buff lasts..
A key insight here is: in the core games, there are hardly any longer-lasting buffs. Fly and invisibility last 1 min/lvl and can thus easily be waited out. While this is in a way sad for a monk using UMD (since most buffs are too short-lived to be of use, and can likewise in some instances be waited out by clever opponents), it is the great chance to fight casters. Note though, that the Joker’s magic spells cannot be recognised when cast with Spellcraft (it’s only an obscure command word), while the spellcasters’ spells can...

4) “You wouldn’t hit a man with glasses, would you?” – The Joker
For a class which needs to go into melee range (though not to stay for long in classic melee fights until much higher levels), you need to somehow resort to all kinds of tricks to
survive (you are quite similar to the Batman here, only that you have double Hp, better saves, more stealth skills and higher AC and thus have a much better start).
Some basic insights:
- in the beginning in case of a low WIS, you COULD even wear a leather armour for a +2 bonus, since that does not incur any penalties even without the light armour proficiency. And the penalties to your monk ability are negligible. (as yet).
- Otherwise, eventually a monk’s AC bonus with continuously maxed WIS will surpass a full plate +5 (and it is touch AC as well).
- Items and tricks and spells that give concealment and miss chances are good for you as well (since you do not have to rely on sight much with a blind-fighting feat).
Another tactics is to look different. For instance, like a sorcerer, wizard or rogue (basically all who do not normally/necessarily wear armour) or even a usual npc (commoner, adept or expert). You do not even need to disguise, just appear as you are – and let your opponents draw their conclusions and prepare for the wrong challenges. With UMD, you can even wield a magic staff/wand, cast from scrolls and appear to be a spellcaster…er batman.

5) “Haven’t you ever heard about the healing power of laughter?” – The Joker
One often-overlooked monk ability is self-healing. It appears not that important, but for the usual encounter-fillled adventuring day, it is basically equal to a +4 CON score for hit points compared to other non-healing classes. Throw in CLW wands with your UMD, as well as your high WIS with healing and you can be a solid secondary party healer (who may devote resources for the wands of CLW you carry).


2. Monk Myths
“Stop the press!” – The Joker

or: why the heck do so many believe in Monk Suckage?

1) “Don’t even go MAHAHAHAHAAAAD” – The Joker


Most of the times, you’ll read about a very popular monk myth, the multi ability dependence (MAD). Allegedly, the monk has to have more high stats everywhere than everyone else
True, the monk can make use out of great scores in all his abilites. So can everyone else. No difference. So everyone is MAD (multi ability dependendet), to the same degree. Or no one is. It is that simple.
Examples: a fighter who wishes to be strong in combat and still not a complete klutz for skills nor easy victim to will-based saves (alongside vital spot and listen checks) will need exactly the same amount of high abilities. Even batman who loves “dump stats” and only focuses on INT, DEX and CON will then see there are problems with his low stats in STR (hit by ray of enfeeblement? There goes that spellbook), WIS (oh noes! Enemy maxed casters could target a wizard with WILL saves? Really? And how do I spot/listen my enemies again?), or CHR (enchanters at the very least like this score rather high).
Overall, as for casters using “dump” stats and the like…well, they are the only ones who even NEED certain minimum scores to function at all. The monk can have WIS of 8, or, for that matter, an 8 IN ALL STATS and still use all his class abilities to his heart’s content. You get the idea...
As an aside, the monk’s bonus feats like combat reflexes and improved trip and even improved grapple do not require the minimum stats that other characters need to have. So if there is one of the classes in the core game that has no MAD, it’s the monk.


2) “The monk has no specialty, so at best makes a nice 5th team member”


Here’s a short list of stuff either ONLY the monk can do or can do best in core.
- best grappler (No. of attacks, damage, bonus feat, spc additional effects like stunning fist- Note: FAQ has nerfed to no longer use stunning fist to be possible alongside grapple damage, so use unarmed strike with stun before grapple or in grapple at -4. His medium BAB does not matter much, and he can easily overcome it – see below)
- fastest scout (highest move, spot/listen/move silently/hide as class skills). Combined with the highest movement speed this means the monk has the highest chance of achieving a surprise melee attack.
- best defensive non-spell abilities in the game. Most are still useful once you use Silence and Antimagic Field (AMF) spells to your advantage.
- Highest base damage dice eventually. The full BABers with their martial weapons have power attack and two-handed weapons. The rogue has sneak attack. The monk has the unique power to make use of scaling his base damage (which also gets mutltiplied in a critical btw) with size increases. Weapon damage dies also increase with rising sizes, but 1) the monk achieves the highest base damage dice by level 15 in core with a monk’s belt, 2) the monk is the only one to get his fists enchanted since only his unarmed strikes are considered manufactured weapons and 3) the monk COULD be the one best affected by any morphing spells since he never has to worry about his weapons growing with him in morph, while he also retains all his other abilities like superior saves, SR and move enhancement.

EDIT: So, in short, the monk can fill a great many roles (as suggested by the PHB roles) in the party. The iconic roles of the party (tank, heal, sneak, cast) are not all there is to the game.

The above unique abilities mean that the monk can do the following special things for the group:
- get them out of trouble/protect them when they are facing superior odds (move and high STR means at higher levels you can simply carry the wizard to safety, dimension door, AoO builds)
- defeat enemy spell users
- scout the fastest for the others
- be the BEST rogue buddy, because you can go everwhere on the battlefield to give him that sneak opportunity with 1) grapple 2) flanking 3) stunning fist.
- the joker monk has so many magical abilities that he greatly helps the group with spellcraft, UMD and his knowledge-arcane in this respect. The party wizard failing that spellcraft check to see what the BBEG is up to? The Jokermonk may jump in and tell him. (at least until the mid-levels the Joker monk provided below in part IV is able to do that).



3) “If for any reason the monk uses spells and UMD cross-class he only shows that his own class abilities suck”.


Ahh…the power of synergy. So obvious to me, but apparently so confusing to others. Think about it.
UMD a wand of divine power (you can get a 10-charge wand thereof at 7th level, the moment the cleric gets it). It immediately equals your BAB disadvantage to the full BAB classes, and synergises well with your main lower-level attack: grapple, as your STR score goes through the roof.
But say, batman uses a rod of divine power (assuming he has high enough WIS or CHR, his “dump” stats, to use a divine spell item and even devote part of his skill points to cross-class UMD). Batman would have full BAB, and be stronger by +6 in his STR score. But so what? A wizard has never any real chance for melee combat, since he lacks all other stuff for it (feats, spc. Attacks, hp, AC).
But the Joker does not lack those…
Simply said, the monk is the core class that gets most out of a divine power (even more than the cleric), because he gets the most attacks this way, the item slot of belt can go to monk’s belt instead of a giant strength belt, and compared to a cleric has more combat-related feats.
If you are not among the faint-hearted WoTC designers who recommend playing without it in some campaigns, you could also try polymorph for even more Joker fun: the monk as an unarmed combatant of course makes most use out of a spell that gives him a bigger, nastier form independent of weapons, spell components and armour.

4) “Speaking about magic items: the monk has to get so many, since he is so weak. Amulets of mighty fists alone cost a fortune.”


You actually do not need as many items as the other non-spellcasting classes. Why? Because you have the most special abilities; magical or non-magical, that already do the stuff that items can do.
For instance, you need no (but in many cases you makes still high use of)
- extra saving throw protection (best BASE saves in the game, plus enhancement spell save bonus)
- spell resistance items
- immunity to disease and poison
- healing items
- movement-enhancing items (speed, dimdoor, etheralness, slow fall)
And if someone suggests to you to take the Amulets of might fists, use the last word to smack him over the head for it. Seriously. They are not only expensive, but also block the spot for other valuable amulets like WIS and CON enhancers. And WoTC designers themselves say by now that since the amulet occupies the wrong body slot, they should be cheaper in bracers form.

“The pen is truly mightier than the sword” – The Joker

A good idea is to get either some greater magic weapon of fang effect, and eventually a wand of holy sword with UMD if you desperately need any enhancement bonuses (plus holy damage) to your unarmed strikes. A pearl of power of third level means making most use out of weapon enhancements in extended from a party or npc cleric. Or enhance some of the monk weapons (for instance, a staff, which you could then use later for great synergy with possible power attack, disarm , all in a flurry). If you desperately want to have a permanent enhancement bonus, get a permanencie’d greater magic fang (more expensive, though, than the divine power trick).
Or follow WoTC’s guidelines for custom items and point out to your DM that bracers of mighty fists cost actually LESS than the amulet variant, since the amulet uses a non-combat slot.

EDIT: There appears to be a lot of disbelief so far (after 25 pages of the thread, still counting) that the monk will be able to fulfill his UMD tactics and still be in line with the wbl. Some words on this:
- I use the WBL guidelines of the DMG, p.135. My interpretation of this (and I feel that the majority on these boards and over at WoTC sees it in a similar manner) is that consumable items will not be replaced over the course of your career; so what ever wand or scroll is used up, will be deducted from your wbl.
- Wbl is meant for the moment you enter that respective level. For the time in between this and the next level, you should have items using simple linear interpolation.
- Wbl is meant as a guide for balance. But this does not mean that you should slavishily follow it 1:1 all the time. Characters may have for some time lost some equipment (due to being captured, sundered swords, wands etc.). Or they may temporarily have a very powerful item for a particular purpose, lost again later.
- the budget for consumable item for the joker monk is around 20-40%, depends on what good permanent items are avaiable in the respective levels. Incidently, this means that the Joker monk can cast enlarge 1,000 (one thousand!) times by level 10. And he can cast heroism (a 2nd level bard spell, extended lasting 80 minutes) about 150 times. Based on 14 encounters per level gain (and not all of them have to be combat!), this means for the 140 encounters of 1-11, the joker monk with UMD can go into combat ALWAYS buffed with +2 morale bonuses on attack rolls, saves, skill checks AND ability checks, including initiative rolls.


5) “The monk is a melee class. So why doesn’t he have full BAB and why can’t he flurry as a standard action? My homebrew monk can do it!”


For the Joker, this is not necessary.
Outside grappling or having stunned an opponent, you do not WANT to go melee for long. Ever. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but the combat abilities of the monk point to a different direction: TOUCH ATTACKS. Grapple. Trip. UMDed rays. Touch spell attacks delivered on top of unarmed strikes. And for touch attacks, you have enough of a BAB, more than the arcane casters, anyway..
And btw in core, there ARE ways to get a move AND a full attack action to hit home your flurry:
- polymorph spells for forms with the pounce ability (many will say that this is overpowered to have for some minutes, but at the same feel no problem with a druid able to do this 24/7., non-dispellable)
- getting a mount that will move/charge for you. As a bonus, you get its attacks (if trained for combat) and you get +1 on the attacking roll for higher ground. EDIT: Note that this only applies to your shuriken flurry.:smallwink:
- At high levels, get an intelligent special purpose item with dimension door.
- Or convince your fellow pc caster or an npc hirling/henchman with dimension door to carry you next to the enemy.
- And the grand monk-thing: freeze your opponent in place with a charge and stun. And after that, use full attack (I guess this combo is what the designers had in mind instead of giving the monk the game-breaking ability to do a full attack as a standard action).

And while I’m at it, other alleged weaknesses for “houseruling” and what can be already done within the existing core rules:
Body not enchantable? Get the spells holy sword or greater magic weapon since the monk's unarmed strike are considered manufactured weapons.
Overcome DR? Get Align weapon if you need it, otherwise magic, lawful, and adamantine are yours eventuallly.
More dimension door? Get items that do it. (wand, cape of mountebank), or the horizon walker prestige class.
Gain airwalk? Forget airwalk. Get a flying item (boots of flying for 16,000 are good) and add your movement enhancement bonus on top. Way better than any air walk.
Lose slow fall? Why? It is much underrated. In dungeons (traps etc.) it's golden. Plus, it adds to your movement total.
6 skill points per level? Why? Be human with INT 14 (INT 18 as intended by you). 7 or 9 skill points per level. It can hardly get better.

6) “Hey, I have a great idea: make use the monk’s high move and get him spring attack.”


Don’t do it. IT’S A TRAP! (to use the logicninja mystic theurge analogy).
Seriously. Play one. And look at the fellow monk player who has access to flying after you spent three of your prescious feats to get spring attack. Said monk player simply takes the flyby attack feat and his tumbling class skill. Then cry.
It’s “We deliberately trained him wrong – as a joke…” (Kung Pow) all over again…
Only in some rare circumstances (magic-poor campaigns, highly defensive monk builds, zombie campaigns, campaigns starting at high level without flyby attack feat) the spring attack feat tree could be worthwhile.

Now, after getting rid of these more known monk fallacies, let us move to more advanced stuff and then on to what some on these boards have been looking forward to eagerly…


III. Advanced Monkery – The Art of being the Joker
“Gentlemen! Let’s broaden our minds” – The Joker

1) The art of grappling:

This is THE casterbane tactics throughout all levels, althoug the advent of freedom of movement at some point means it’s best up to mid-level, and at very high levels, this tactics returns with a vengeance and AMF.
It is also a great general combat tactics, though. And the monk excels at it.
At low level, it makes a lack of armour and your inferior starting damage dice obsolete, since you lower your opponent damage potential to a mere 1d3 starting damage dice (possibly non-lethal), and TH weapons and power attack of opponents are nullified (power attack is not applicable in a grapple!). Not to mention that a grappled caster is reduced to spells with only vocal components (not that many below dimension door leverl) or, with two successful grapple checks and pinned, the caster cannot do any more spells – barring some still, silent feat prepared spells. But hardly any casters will 1) even have those feats and 2) have it prepared at the time of your attack.
You can also use your higher number of grapple attempts (flurry) to pin and force opponent to waste their highest grapple check to escape the pin. You can move with your opponent through squares threatened by your allies and have fun watching him get x AoO (more AoO with combat reflexing allies).
The major objection to grappling may be that big and strong creatures hit the scene quite quickly (CR 3 & up). There are two caveats to this, though:
- until the mid-levels MOST creatures you encounter you either can still grapple since your grapple check mostly exceeds theirs (and do not forget, if you are, say, level 6, you will not always fight single CR 6 creatures, but more often the CR 2-4 kind in greater numbers alongside the party in one-on-one combat. Plus, your main prey- casters- usually have only freedom of movement as means to foil you – and this only through divine casting (assassin prestige class a rare exception here).
- the big and strong creatures of the earlier levels are exactly that: big and strong. But have few other abilities and no brain to speak of. Animals and vermin or huge zombies/skeletons may be outsmarted quite well.

EDIT3: Then, the issue of: freedom of movement - a 4th level spell winning all defensive grapple checks. A permanent item providing it is only available at the earliest at level 16 with ¼ wbl (DMG recommendation for pcs). Note, though, that the ring of freedom of movement is made of gold (as per DMG/SRD), and thus can be sundered easily at those levels with just one hit. You do not even need the improved sunder feat for that (an AoO from a spellcaster? Come on!:smallwink:).
The wand is available earlier, but apart from sundering, you could disarm it away (grab an item option).
That leaves the (divine) spellcasting. Even though monsters mostly do not have the spell up, casters will – sometimes. Try to win initiative before the FOM is up (and prevent it with a silence around you). Or, recognise it with spellcraft and then wait out the buff (i.e. retreat , hide, and strike when spell is over. Few casters have prepared it several times).

2) D-Fense, Part II

A monk has good defenses, but less offensive powers until later levels (when the no. of attacks and monk’s belt really provide great damage output). How to turn good defense into offensive use?
By creating a combat environment that favours the monk who has a particular kind of immunity that others don’t have!
For instance, centre fireballs on yourself in the midst of overwhelming odds surrounding you (with necklace item) and (improved) evasion the damage away. Or grapple an opponent and let your party wizard fireball you and the opponent. Use poison once you are immune to it yourself. Create situations where weapons do not help much (say, tight quarters). Sight is not as important to you as it is for spellcasters (you can even throw shuriken into pinpointed areas with listen). Use your immunity to disease vs, say, an enemy camp by spreading some disease the day before you attack (some diseases even cause WIS and INT loss, or deplete their CON to soften them up vs your stunning fists attacks). Think the “Flesh and Blood” movie. Be creative

3) Prestige classes and multi-classing

WHEN TO QUIT MONK?
Well, there some possible prestige classes in core for the monk. Where then are good departing points (meaning departing for good, since a monk may not lose his class abilities getting to another class or turning non-lawful, but they can never return).
At lvl 1,2,6: have most bonus feats without ability requirements as possible. Possibly interesting for special fighter builds.
At lvl 11: you just received your 2nd flurry attack. Get full BAB with divine power and thus have most attacks per round. Or wait for level 12 to grab the supernatural dimension door. You can use that ability even when paralysed – it’s a great escape pod for all levels.
EDIT: at lvl 12: another good exit point. In particular since with level 13, you can likely no longer use enlarge for buffing (SR!). So it is good to add some combat-heavy prestige class or base class. For instance, one level of barbarian for rage bonus to STR, and two fighter levels for extra feats (though you need to be human or half-elf to avoid multi-class penalties).
At lvl 15: with a monk’s belt you have reached the highest possible unarmed damage.

PRESTIGE CLASSES
Good prestige classes reinforcing the roles meant by PHB for the monk (spy, infiltrator, assassin, scout, opportunist combatant) and also good vs casters in general are
- Duelist (get INT to AC, unarmed strike can be considered weapon in only one hand, you get great boosts to your initiative which is vital vs casters)
- shadowdancer (hide in plain sight)
- Horizon walker (for dimension door every 1d4 rounds, a rare competence bonus to listen, etc.)
- Assassin prestige class
I also like a combo of dragon disciple for the STR stat boosts and tremorsense, and possibly fying ability (the monk has knowledge arcane as class skill!) , with a 1+-level dip in assassin to get the spontaneous arcane casting ability. The assassin also gets you wand access to all assassin spells, even without UMD.
For instance, monk 15/assassin 1/dragon disciple 4
This build would add +1d6 sneak, death attack, poison use, a 1 first level spell (could be true strike), access to assassin spell wands, +4 STR, claw and bite attacks in addition to monk unarmed strikes, Bonus to natural AC. This would replace the monk abilites of lvl 16-20 of: etheralness rounds/lvl/day, continuos non-magical tongues, outsider status for magical effects, ageing immunity to physical stats.
Note that you lose out on Spell Resistance and quivering palm DC with any multi-classing – and you cannot return to the monk class.

MULTI-CLASSING
EDIT: For a level dip ahead of monk, the rogue, fighter, barbarian, cleric, druid and wizard are all good choices.#
The non-casters for providing you extra oomph in case you wish to specialise in fighting
- rogue: sneak attack, synergising with your stunning fist.
- fighter: extra feats for complete unarmed/spiked chain combat control
- barbarian: extra STR for improved trip and/or grapple builds. (note that you do not lose your monk abilities when you turn chaotic barbarian)
The spellcasters will all either give you some buff spells from their spells/day and wand use without UMD to the spells 1-4 level of your class list.


4) “I have given a name to my pain. It is Batman.” – The Joker

Basically, what would hurt casters most?
Not being able to affect the monk with their magic/effect any magic at all. This can be accomplished by
- blocking their somatic components (grappling)
- blocking their material components (disarming)
- blocking their vocal components (grappling, using silence spell effect)
- blocking all actions (stunning)
- blocking their line of sight (blinding, obscuring vision)
- blocking their line of effect (force effects, use of full cover)
- blocking their area effects (evasion, improved evasion)
- blocking their range (fast moving out of range. Great vs summons and the usual temporary buffs that you recognised before with Spellcraft)
- blocking their refreshment methods (attacking during prayer, learning, disrupting sleep etc.)
- blocking all magic (Anti-magic-field, spell resistance, saving throws, certain force effects; although recent magic item compendium rules which can be seen to update the core rules appear to have AMF no longer block line of effect for magic – courtesy Lord_Silvanos. It is irrelevant for the AMF grappling tactics, though.).

Normally stopping the spells/spellcasting of a caster means almost certain win. A cleric has some decent fighting abilty, but without spells even (or rather, in particular with) heavy armour will be no match in combat for a monk.
Of all the casters the monk can go against, druid is the toughest one. The reason is straightforward: most skill points of full casters (not counting the bard here) and many useful non-spell abilities besides.
In particular the monk can get trouble due to the animal companion protecting the druid (if it is the large kind and not the one with more abilities), and his spells providing most of the powers of the other full casters at high levels (and lower levels besides). As for the usual wildshaping zilla druid – just point out to your DM that most likely polymorph is banned and thus, the druid should likewise not be able to get this kind of superior combat boost (24/7, at that!).
At high levels, a druid hit by an AMF will, of course, also crumble, but before that – what can a monk do in addition to the stuff above (i.e. obstructing the druid spells)?
Some suggestions:
- use hide from animals effects (50 uses in wand for 750 gp only). This negates the animal companion until you have reached and managed to grapple the druid.
- Note that your eversmoking bottle stealth mid-level tactics work not that well vs a druid, since the druid can summon air elmentals spontaneously that will whirlwind your smoke away AND they are the only class (apart from air domain clerics) to cast control winds.

For those batmen retreating to a MMM or tower (abandoning adventuring) the Joker would only say:
“I'm givin' away free money, and where is the Batman? He's at home washing his tights!”

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 08:20 AM
IV. Some build ideas

1. Joker Build (core) – Level by Level 1-20
“Do I look like I am joking?” – The Joker

This joker (or Giamonk) build is intended to be quite versatile, but with a bias to combat casters.
It is a human monk, 28-point buy, with wbl guidelines (and at most 25% devoted to one item, as per DMG p. 199 recommendation). This is also the build many monk-doubting posters may have expected for a while...

Level 1

Human monk build, 28-point buy
STR 14, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude
SKILLS: Move Silently +6 (DEX, 4 ranks), Hide +6 (DEX, 4 ranks), Spot +6 (WIS, 4 ranks), Listen +6 (WIS, 4 ranks), Use Magic Device +3 (CHR, 2 ranks, feat), Spellcraft +6 (INT, 2 ranks, feat), Knowledge-Arcane +6 (INT, 4 ranks)
ITEMS: as per PHB starting monk kit. Caltrops are also quite good.
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 30ft
AC 14 (WIS, DEX)
HITS 9 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES Fort +3, Reflex +4, Will +4
GRAPPLE: +6 (+4/+4)
UNARMED ATTACK: +2 (+0/+0); Damage 1d6 +2

COMMENT: The stage is set for the joker...
Taking improved grapple instead of stunning fist as bonus feat is a tough choice. When going for a DEX/finesse monk, you should go for the stunning fist ability early.
However, at low levels, grappling is simply a very strong tactics, and in those early levels you do not get that many stunning fist attacks, and you still can have the stunning fist attack at level 12, when losing whole rounds is really painful for opponents.
As for whether anyone would be better suited than a monk for grappling tactics...
If you happen to encounter a strange wizard with an octopus familiar to (futilely) beat you at grappling, point out to him that you are faster than he can cast enlarge (he got no improved initiative if he goes for grappling) and that his octopus familiar just died for lack of water or, if in a water bowl, will slow down the wizard for sheer encumbrance prohibitively. And, of course, he resorted to non-core material...
As for the fighter and barbarian – well, they will not be that amused that they have to take a starting DEX of 15 and thus lower their STR starting scores, in case they do not wish to lose their grapple feat when enlarged later. And of course, you should tell them that they never will equal your no. of attacks and unarmed damage in grappling. So they should concentrate on their weapon s/battlefield control stuff.
Needless to say that at a +6 modifier, there is no MM monster with a higher grapple modifier at CR 1.

Level 2

STR 14, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat)
SPECIAL: Evasion
SKILLS: Move Silently +8 (DEX, 4 ranks, MW item), Hide +8 (DEX, 4 ranks, MW item), Spot +8 (WIS, 4 ranks, MW item), Listen +8 (WIS, 4 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +5 (CHR, 2 ranks, feat, MW item), Spellcraft +10 (INT, 2 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +9 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item), Perform- Comedy +0 (CHR, 1 rank)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills except perform (400 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325)
WAND BUDGET: 150 approx (for instance, 5 CLW, 5 enlarge)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 30ft
AC 14 (WIS, DEX), 17 fighting defensively, 20 full defense (tumble)
HITS 15 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +4, Refl +5, Will +5
GRAPPLE: +7 (+5/+5); enlarged +12 (+10/+10)
UNARMED ATTACK: +3 (+1/+1); Damage 1d6 +2, 1d8+3 enlarged

COMMENT: Hoodiho! The joker’s grapple bonus just doubled with the help of either an enlarge spell by a fellow pc caster – or, to make you more self-reliant – by your own wand of enlarge. Provided, you get off the spell with currently only UMD of +5. So at this level, it can only be done for encounters that you see coming and have some rounds beforehand to buff.
+12 grapple check is, of course, enough to overcome any CR 2 monsters with grappling – with flurried +10/+10 you will also be able to pin most creatures in a round. And those CR 2 monsters - if being the same number as the iconid 4-member group – will remain around for challenging encounters up to CR 6.
Concerning combat reflexes, there is the trick to ready a standard action and enlarge just when someone charges you (courtesy Talic).– you’ll get an AoO this way and will stop the charge with a grapple, and the opponent’s +2 attack bonus does not apply in a grapple check But that is more viable once you get higher UMD modifiers.
The Masterwork spiked chain is at -4 (non-proficient), but enlarged a charger will get hit by two AoO before reaching you, so even at only a bonus of +0 total attack, it is better than nothing. The masterwork spiked chain will mature lateron in level 6, though.
Evasion at 2nd level means you can start to dodge some traps nicely, area damage effects by magic lateron. When there is no rogue in the party, you can try to deal with traps the lord_khaine way: just walk into them and trigger them for the party. You have good saves, evasion, and lateron slow fall. Only some traps reset.
In case you wish to at some point deviate from your grappling tactics, use a wand of shillelagh and get an enlarged +1 staff that will deal 3d6+3 damage in your hands and can be flurried.


Level 3

STR 14, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device
SPECIAL: Evasion
SKILLS: Move Silently +8 (DEX, 4 ranks, MW item), Hide +8 (DEX, 4 ranks, MW item), Spot +10 (WIS, 6 ranks, MW item), Listen +9 (WIS, 5 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +9 (CHR, 3 ranks, feats, MW item), Spellcraft +11 (INT, 3 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +9 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item), Perform- Comedy +2 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (450 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335)
WAND BUDGET: 1,000 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 40ft
AC 14 (WIS, DEX), 17 fighting defensively, 20 full defense (tumble)
HITS 20 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +4, Refl +5, Will +5
GRAPPLE: +8 (+6/+6); enlarged +13 (+11/+11)
UNARMED ATTACK: +4 (+2/+2); Damage 1d6 +2, 1d8+3 enlarged

COMMENT: UMD at +9 now means the joker get off his wands with a 50% chance. Which is a solid thing; with the rising wand budget it means you’ll have enlarge up for many fights, except for the instances where the party is surprised. However, the high move silently/hide/spot/listen combo means this gets less and less likely.
Note also that some of your wand spells – enlarge, CLW, obscuring mist etc. – can also be helpful for the party, meaning you could get more wands from the party pool (in case there is no arcane or divine spellcaster in the group and noone else has a higher UMD).
Generally speaking, you could also start to get some 2nd level effects – since this level is now available for spellcasters in your group (this is a rough guide for the maximum level you should aim to cast). But load up on good first level spells first. The cheapest core first level spell in a permanent item is the bless spell in the 600 gp prayer bead. It’s a good monkish fluff item, and highly useful for the party to have as an extra ready.
Ah, and you just got as fast as the barbarian. With a spiked chain reach in enlarge, this now means you have a range of 60 ft in one move.


Level 4

STR 15 (stat gain), DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device
SPECIAL: Evasion, Slow Fall 20ft, Ki-Magic
SKILLS: Move Silently +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Hide +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Spot +11 (WIS, 7 ranks, MW item), Listen +11 (WIS, 7 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +9 (CHR, 3 ranks, feats, MW item), Spellcraft +11 (INT, 3 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +9 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item), Perform- Comedy +2 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (450 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), Pearl of Power, level 1 (1,000)
WAND BUDGET: 2,700 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 40ft
AC 18 (WIS, DEX, mage armour), 21 fighting defensively, 24 full defense (tumble)
HITS 26 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +5, Refl +6, Will +6 (+8 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +9 (+7/+7); enlarged +14 (+12/+12)
UNARMED ATTACK: +5 (+3/+3); Damage 1d8 +2, 2d6+3 enlarged

COMMENT: Level 4 yields a lot of nice stuff for the joker: save boosts (including +2 vs the most threatening low-level spells from the enchantment school), BAB gain, stat gain, as well as ki strike. This last one means you can strike creatures with DR/magic – before anyone else can (without buffs), since +1 magic weapons (of 2,300 gp+) only become available in level 6 in this setting following DMG recommendations (i.e. only 25% of wbl to one item). For the rare occasion of incorporal foes, try to get a first level magic weapon spell buff on your fists.
And the monk gets another often-ridiculed ability: slow fall. Things you can do with slow fall:
- survive traps (mentioned already before)
- gain extra movement (falling counts as taking no time- so move your max to the chasm and fall over it, then land safely 20ft+ below. More, if you make your tumble check.
- Grapple and move with your opponent and drag him to fall. You will take no damage, but he will…
The pearl of power fulfils two roles: combined with your increased wand budget, and your occasional bless boost to everyone from your bead, you can also help the preparing casters with this one out, when every you do not use it for the second role: getting an hour/lvl boost to AC via mage armour.
Ah, and your grapple check has increased to that of a troll, while your damage equals a greatsword (note that due to your UMD path, you’ll do more often enlarged damage than the normal fighter types). Who ever said monks are weak at low levels?


Level 5

STR 15, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device
SPECIAL: Evasion, Slow Fall 20ft, Ki-Magic, Purity of Body (immune to Disease)
SKILLS: Move Silently +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Hide +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Spot +12 (WIS, 8 ranks, MW item), Listen +12 (WIS, 8 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +10 (CHR, 4 ranks, feats, MW item), Spellcraft +12 (INT, 4 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +9 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item), Perform- Comedy +2 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item), Jump +11 (STR, 1 rank, MW item, synergy, move)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (500 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1
WAND BUDGET: 4,300 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 40ft
AC 19 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 22 fighting defensively, 25 full defense (tumble)
HITS 31 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +6, Refl +7, Will +7 (+9 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +9 (+8/+8); enlarged +14 (+13/+13)
UNARMED ATTACK: +5 (+4/+4); Damage 1d8 +2, 2d6+3 enlarged

COMMENT : Arguably the weakest joker level. Your first stagnation in attacking ability (OK, your flurry gets a bit better). At least your defense goes up a bit with the first monk AC boost. You could treat yourself to some 2nd or even third level spells in wands for some nova events. Flying casters start to become an issue, but they need to go first and not be surprised by you. You can also use silence more often – both for scouting as well as grappling (and area affecting) enemy spellcasters. The second pearl of power adds versatility for the casters in the group.
Purity of Body is a bit obscure – in some campaign settings (dark middle age plague areas ; zombie campaigns) it can be very powerful. Otherwise most likely ignored in the game (except in some innovative instances as brought up in III. 2))


Level 6:
(note: this is also the version playtested Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80837); it includes a more detailed equipment list and the budget fully used for wands.

STR 15, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack
SPECIAL: Evasion, Slow Fall 30ft, Ki-Magic, Purity of Body (immune to Disease)
SKILLS: Move Silently +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Hide +11 (DEX, 7 ranks, MW item), Spot +13 (WIS, 9 ranks, MW item), Listen +13 (WIS, 9 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +10 (CHR, 4 ranks, feats, MW item), Spellcraft +12 (INT, 4 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +2 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item), Jump +19 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move)
ITEMS (7,760gp, 30#weight): Masterwork tools for all above skills (500/10), Masterwork spiked chain (325/10), bead of bless 1/day (600/-), Masterwork light crossbow (335/4), 2 Pearls of Power level 1 (2,000/-), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000/1), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000/5).
WAND BUDGET: 4,950 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 50ft
AC 19 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 22 fighting defensively, 25 full defense (tumble)
HITS 37 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +7, Refl +8, Will +8 (+10 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +10 (+9/+9); enlarged +15 (+14/+14)
UNARMED ATTACK: +6 (+5/+5); Damage 2d6 +2, 3d6+3 enlarged

CHOSEN REMAINING EQUIPMENT FOR PLAYTEST:
NON-WAND (440 gp: weight: 24#: Exporer’s Outfit (10/-, worn, with 1 Everburning torch wrapped in black cloth 110/1, 2 rations ½, 2x 50 gp gems, 29 gp, Belt with 40 Crossbow bolts (5, 4.5), Belt with Wands-see below (1/0.5) Belt with pouches (1/0.5, grappling hook bound to one silk rope 11/9, 100 Chalk 1/-, Waterskin 1/ 4, small steel mirror 10/0.5, 1 regular torch/flint/steel 1/1, Healer’s Kit 50/1, 1 Everburning torch wrapped in black cloth 110/1, TOTAL belt 185/17)
WANDS (4,800, weight around 2#; x5 costs...):
3x Enlarge (5 charges each, total 1,125)
2x Heroism (bard version, 1 charge each, total 1,200)
2x Silence (1 charge each, total 900)
2x Hide from Animals (2 charges each, total 300)
2x Obscuring Mist (2 charges each, total 300)
2x Detect Secret Doors (1 charge each, total 150)
2x Detect Magic (1 charge each, total 75)
2x Comprehend Languages (1 charge each, total 150)
2x Cure Light Wounds (2 charges each, total 300)
2x Resist Energy (Ranger version, 1 charge each, 300)


COMMENT: Another good level for the joker. Two feats, saves, BAB, move and even slow fall all improve. The most striking features:
- With the great improved natural attack feat, the monk now does more base damage than any non-enlarged weapon. 3d6 damage in large size is equal to the 3d6 sneak extra damage of the rogue. The monk now is not the biggest damage dealer around, but he can definitely contribute.
- With the spiked chain and the improved disarm feat, there is now a check of +15 (attack bonus, TH weapon, large size, feat)– good enough vs chargers to get disarmed with two AoO, and to foil any attempt of a sneak attacker with a light weapon to get close to the monk (when spotted). You could, of course, also try to disarm with a shillelagh staff at +18 (flurry +17/+17), albeit at a reduced reach (10ft).
- The monk now has the highest move of all classes in the game (Barring spells and mounts, eventually he overtakes those as well). His jump skill is also likely the highest. By now it is possible that an enlarged monk can jump up to reach a wizard who just used the fly spell to fly up (30ft).
- With +15 grapple, the monk is still equal to or much better vs well over 90% of all CR1-6 monsters (not counting the many humanoid opponents with class levels who are not large size). And many of the approx 20 monsters out there that have a higher grapple check than the monk are often vermin, mindless undead or animals (which can get outsmarted quickly). Or some magical beasts and small dragons (which the monk may know something about with knowledge arcane)
- With the help of the rod of extend, as well as the two pearls of powers, you now can have a 24/7 mage armour (provided a friendly arcane caster is nearby). You can also help other casters extend their low-level buffs by lending them the rod.




Level 7

STR 15, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack
SPECIAL: Evasion, Slow Fall 30ft, Ki-Magic, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (14 hits/day)
SKILLS: Move Silently +10 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Hide +11 (DEX, 7 ranks, MW item), Spot +14 (WIS, 10 ranks, MW item), Listen +14 (WIS, 10 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +14 (CHR, 5 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +19 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500)
WAND BUDGET: 5,800 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 50ft
AC 19 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 22 fighting defensively, 25 full defense (tumble)
HITS 42 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +7, Refl +8, Will +8 (+10 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +11 (+10/+10); enlarged +16 (+15/+15)
UNARMED ATTACK: +7 (+6/+6); Damage 2d6 +2, 3d6+3 enlarged

COMMENT: Thanks to the circlet of persuasion, you have 75% of UMD wand activation chance. So you can now dare to use wands more often also in combat. You also get around much better with your social skills.
Your healing ability makes your hit points also last longer.
Note that at level 7, powerful opponent spells like solid fog, enervation, black tentacles and freedom of movement need to be overcome. And they can.
Some maybe with low-charged wands of blink. Others with won initiative, stealth and surprise. The tentacles you can tentacle er tackle with your own quite steep grapple check of +16 (and flurry +15/+15), vs an caster’s tentacle grapple of around 15. Anyhow, those spells are not as abundant yet, and thus freedom of movement will not that often yet make grappling tactics obsolete.


Level 8:

STR 18 (stat gain, item), DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack
SPECIAL: Evasion, Slow Fall 40ft, Ki-Magic, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (16 hits/day)
SKILLS: Move Silently +15 (DEX, 11 ranks, MW item), Hide +11 (DEX, 7 ranks, MW item), Spot +15 (WIS, 11 ranks, MW item), Listen +15 (WIS, 11 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +14 (CHR, 5 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +21 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500),
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (4,000)
WAND BUDGET: 10,800 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 50ft
AC 19 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 22 fighting defensively, 25 full defense (tumble)
HITS 48 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +8, Refl +9, Will +9 (+11 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +14 (+13/+13/+8); enlarged +19 (+18/+18/+13)
UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+9/+9/+4); Damage 2d8 +4, 3d8+5 enlarged

COMMENT: 8th level is the interim capstone of your low-to mid-level grappling strategy. You receive one more strong stat boost, and a +2 stat booster to push your STR to 18 (20 enlarged). Your damage dies go up to a maximum of 3d8, which combined with a third grapple attempt in flurry of blows can really increase your grappling damage per round,
Roughly 80% of creatures will still be outgrappled by you, but by the next level, it is time to think up a new tactics.
The rest of your treasure goes to almost double your wand budget (which you likely have pretty much used up by now, so it is good to get it refreshed).


Level 9:

STR 16, DEX 16 (+2 item), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 40ft, Ki-Magic, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (18 hits/day)
SKILLS: Move Silently +22 (DEX, 12 ranks, MW item, boots), Hide +14 (DEX, 9 ranks, MW item), Spot +16 (WIS, 12 ranks, MW item), Listen +16 (WIS, 12 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +15 (CHR, 6 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +12 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +24 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Elven Boots (2,500)
WAND BUDGET: 11,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +7 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 60ft
AC 20 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 23 fighting defensively, 26 full defense (tumble)
HITS 53 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +8, Refl +9, Will +9 (+11 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +13 (+13/+13/+8); enlarged +18 (+18/+18/+13)
UNARMED ATTACK: +9 (+9/+9/+4); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged

COMMENT: This and the next level, the joker takes account of the fact that the dangers around him, including from spells, get more lethal. The eversmoking bottle is a great way to cut down enemy attacks – in particular when the monk is on his own, but also with a group that is ambushed and needs quick protection up vs enemy spells and missile attacks.
The monk’s abilities synsergise greatly with this tactics. He has listen and move silently as class tactics, and with his high speed can move quite quickly in the total concealment. Area effects would not need to pinpoint him, but by now he has received improved evasion that foils most such attacks. Furthermore, his large number of attacks (including now shuriken at possibly 1d3+4 damage each) means with blind-fight he is less affected by the total concealment in full attacks.
Plus, the smoke can take out everyone caught too long inside, and spellcasting should be nigh impossible, since you cannot cast a spell and hold your breath at the same time.
A note on UMD: with a base score of +15, you could now with wands of heroism and eagle’s splendour get to the +19 modifier to make 100% sure that your wands will be usable IN combat.

Level 10:

STR 16, DEX 16 (+2 item), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 50ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (20 hits/day)
SKILLS: Move Silently +23 (DEX, 13 ranks, MW item, boots), Hide +18 (DEX, 13 ranks, MW item), Spot +17 (WIS, 13 ranks, MW item), Listen +17 (WIS, 13 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +15 (CHR, 6 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +12 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +24 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +7 (CHR, 3 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Elven Boots (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000)
WAND BUDGET: 15,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +7 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 60ft
AC 23 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, +2 enhancement), 26 fighting defensively, 29 full defense (tumble)
HITS 59 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +9, Refl +10, Will +10 (+12 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +14 (+14/+14/+9); enlarged +19 (+19/+19/+14)
UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged

COMMENT: You continue one more level with your more defensive and scouting tactics. A level 3 pearl of power can give you access to magic vestment (extendable to last 18 hours), which provides you with that second monk AC bonus with 3 higher AC total

Level 11:

STR 18 (+2 item), DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 16 (+2 item), CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 50ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (22 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison)
SKILLS: Move Silently +23 (DEX, 14 ranks, MW item, boots), Hide +18 (DEX, 14 ranks, MW item), Spot +19 (WIS, 14 ranks, MW item), Listen +19 (WIS, 14 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +16 (CHR, 7 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +24 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +8 (CHR, 4 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gauntlets of Ogre Power+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Elven Boots (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+2 (4,000)
WAND BUDGET: 15,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 60ft
AC 23 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, +2 enhancement), 26 fighting defensively, 29 full defense (tumble)
HITS 64 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +9, Refl +10, Will +11 (+13 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +16 (+16/+16/+16/+11); enlarged +21 (+21/+21/+21/+15)
UNARMED ATTACK: +12 (+12/+12/+12/+6); Damage 3d8 +4, 4d8+5 enlarged

COMMENT: Level 11 marks another turning point. With the joker’s er... monk’s belt, the full core damage stacking is now up. Combined with greater flurry and a switch back to a strength-enhancing item, the monk can now in full attack do per round an impressive 16d8+20 (or on average 92 damage).
The rather weak “to hit” (note that more attacks are at highest bonus than for any other class) can be already remediated by wands of heroism (+2) and greater magic weapon (+2) buffs. In key battles, one of a few divine power charges nets +4 more STR and one more attack at full BAB, sending your damage/round way above 100.
And you can always still resort to a grapple when appropriate…you are ahead by +6 in the grapple check vs a STR 18 non-enlarged fighter.
Ah, and you now are immune to poison. While your opponents may also have some poison immunities, it does not hurt to coat your gauntlets in cheap carrion crawler brain juice for touch attack paralysis (only DC 13, but eventually that save is not made). To cut the poison costs to a third, you could shift some of your skill points to craft-poisonmaking. Drow poison doses would be thus 25gp each. You can take out dragons this way (provided to live long enough to hit for several hits until the critter rolls a “1” on its save...) In the coming levels, though, no more poison-making is assumed. You could get some poison from your wand budget.

A key thing, though, is that now AMF is available – the great caster bane (for 1,650 per use). You can cast it from a scroll at currently +18 UMD, meaning to hit DC 31 required in combat you have a 40% chance. Well, Giacomo, you may say – this is not yet a reliable tactics when fighting casters, so you can only use it with some further boosts at 100% success in lvls 19 or 20? NOT SO FAST MY FRIENDS...
Here is the kicker:
Among 6th level spells, there is also the possibility to turn your monk staff into a “spellstaff” from the druid list. You can store an AMF into it between your adventuring times without any problem (just repeat UMD until it works). Congratulations. You can now cast AMF once/day.
Well, to be honest...the wording of the spellstaff spell shows it was never intended to be used by a non-caster, so check with your DM whether he allows it. But the wording in RAW is quite clear imo. If spellcasters can get around buying a permanent item with a 1/day spell use, why not a non-spellcaster? Would not make sense to me.
Note, though, that it costs you 3,300 gp still and can be dispelled any time. On the flipside, you can actually store ANY spell into that staff, also at high-level play things like time stop, plus you can also use rods of metagmagic to, say, quicken any spell...divine power anyone?...


Level 12

STR 18 (+2 item), DEX 15 (stat gain), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 16 (+2 item), CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (13/day, DC 19)
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 60ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (24 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day)
SKILLS: Move Silently +19 (DEX, 15 ranks, MW item), Hide +19 (DEX, 15 ranks, MW item), Spot +25 (WIS, 15 ranks, MW item, eyes), Listen +19 (WIS, 15 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +16 (CHR, 7 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +29 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +11 (CHR, 7 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 3 Pearls of Power, level 1 (3,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gauntlets of Ogre Power+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS +2 (4,000), Boots of Flying (16,000)
WAND BUDGET: 20,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 70ft (100ft flying)
AC 24 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, enhance +3), 27 fighting defensively, 30 full defense (tumble)
HITS 64 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +10, Refl +11, Will +12 (+14 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+11); enlarged +22 (+22/+22/+22/+17)
UNARMED ATTACK: +13 (+13/+13/+13/+8); Damage 3d8 +4, 4d8+5 enlarged

COMMENT: In level 12, the joker starts to mature. Melee hitting chance and thus damage output goes up a bit further, but more importantly, your stunning fist attacks are now added for up to 13 rounds. Losing one round of actions is devastating for opponents, in particular spellcasters, at those levels. It is also a way to ascertain 1) more sneaks for your fellow rogue player and 2) more full attacks for you after a typical tactics: sneak up within partial charge range of 100ft (flying). This gives the enemy -10 to spot/listen against you (so you can afford the -4 hide penalty when enlarged). Then charge/attack/stun in the surprise round. Full attack and stun again. Repeat.
And you now have added two great move modes more often than already before with your wands with your dimension door ability (non-dispellable, usable even in paralysis) and your flying boots, pushing up your move to among the fastest creatures of the game.
With a +25 Spot skill, you can also start to pinpoint invisible opponents.

Level 13:

STR 18 (+2 item), DEX 15, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 16 (+2 item), CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (14/day, DC 18)
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 60ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (26 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 23).
SKILLS: Move Silently +20 (DEX, 16 ranks, MW item), Hide +20 (DEX, 16 ranks, MW item), Spot +26 (WIS, 16 ranks, MW item, eyes), Listen +21 (WIS, 16 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +17 (CHR, 8 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +29 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +12 (CHR, 8 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gauntlets of Ogre Power+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+2 (4,000), Boots of Flying (16,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000)
WAND BUDGET: 21,000 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 70ft (100ft flying)
AC 20 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 23 fighting defensively, 26 full defense (tumble)
HITS 70 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +10, Refl +11, Will +11 (+13 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +17 (+17/+17/+16/+11); enlarged +21 (+21/+21/+21/+16)
UNARMED ATTACK: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+12) +3 enhance bonus, blinking; Damage 3d8 +7, 4d8+8 enlarged

COMMENT: Obtaining the ring of blinking and also gaining Spell Resistance pushes the joker’s defenses into the stratosphere. Basically, you halve almost all incoming attacks in their chance of success, and whatever spells get through will also be reduced in their chance of effect (45% vs same level attacks – while casters may boost their casting level in various ways, there are many monsters out there with lower spell casting levels, though). This also arrives just in time since power words and holy words start to fly around – you may stop them, though, with moving up to the opponent caster with a silence spell, You have a higher move than the close range of those spells.
Blinking is also a great boon against walls, enemy grappling attempts and ways to pass through doors and floors in a dungeon. You can even duck underneath a wall of force.
With that much jacked up defenses, you can now afford to switch from armour enhancement to weapon enhancement (24/7 since level 12 btw with rod of extend).
What does the joker do vs batman using also blink? Well...the joker has enough attacks, while the batman against his blink effect only has that one (at best two) spell attacks per round...And with the coming levels, you’ll get more and more resources to make an AMF tactics more viable..
For what’s it worth, in a campaign without polymorph, you can also try the following trick from scrolls of changestaff and magic jar (2250 and 1,125) and your scroll UMD of +19 (you can try it until you succeed):
Prepare your staff monk weapon to become a treant with the changestaff and occupy its body. Your combat abilities then skyrocket for 9 hours (basically, the adventuring day) and you can grapple creatures up to gargantuan size....


Level 14:

STR 16, DEX 19 (+4 item), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 16 (+2 item), CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (15/day, DC 20)
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 70ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (28 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 24).
SKILLS: Move Silently +23 (DEX, 17 ranks, MW item), Hide +23 (DEX, 17 ranks, MW item), Spot +27 (WIS, 17 ranks, MW item, eyes), Listen +22 (WIS, 17 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +17 (CHR, 8 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +13 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +28 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +15 (CHR, 11 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+4 (16,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+2 (4,000), Boots of Flying (16,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000)
WAND BUDGET: 34,000 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +8 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 70ft (100ft flying)
AC 25 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, deflection), 28 fighting defensively, 31 full defense (tumble)
HITS 75 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +12, Refl +14, Will +14 (+16 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+12); enlarged +22 (+22/+22/+22/+17)
UNARMED ATTACK: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+12) +3 enhance bonus, blinking; Damage 3d8 +6, 4d8+7 enlarged

COMMENT: This level gets you relatively little from the monk class (possibly- despite the BAB and save boosts- the weakest since level 5). Your items should go to push up defenses a bit and fatten you wand budget. Your higher DEX also means better initiative. At these levels, this can be crucial.



Level 15:

STR 16, DEX 19 (+4 item), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 16 (+2 item), CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (16/day, DC 20), Flyby Attack
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 70ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (30 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 25), Quivering palm (1/week, DC 20)
SKILLS: Move Silently +25 (DEX, 18 ranks, MW item, luck), Hide +25 (DEX, 18 ranks, MW item, luck), Spot +29 (WIS, 18 ranks, MW item, eyes, luck), Listen +24 (WIS, 18 ranks, MW item, luck), Use Magic Device +19 (CHR, 9 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet, luck), Spellcraft +14 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item, luck), Knowledge-Arcane +10 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item, luck), Tumble +14 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, luck), Perform- Comedy +6 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet, luck), Jump +33 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move, luck), Diplomacy +17 (CHR, 12 ranks, MW item, circlet, luck)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX +4 (16,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+2 (4,000), Boots of Flying (16,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), Stone of Good luck (20,000), Rod of Cancellation (11,000)
WAND BUDGET: 53,000 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +9 (DEX, feat, luck)
MOVE: 80ft (110ft flying)
AC 29 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, deflection, +3 enhance), 32 fighting defensively, 35 full defense (tumble)
HITS 75 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +12, Refl +14, Will +14 (+16 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +18 (+18/+18/+18/+13/+8); enlarged +23 (+23/+23/+23/+18/+13); with divine power and enlarge +30 (+30/+30/+30/+25/+20)
UNARMED ATTACK: +16 (+16/+16/+16/+11/+6), blinking; Damage 4d8+2d6 +3, 6d8+2d6 +4 enlarged; with divine power and holy sword up, enlarged: +26 (+26/+26/+26/+21/+16), Damage 6d8+2d6 +12 (or avg 46 damage per hit)

COMMENT: Level 15 is again one of the strongest levels for the joker. You get a great many things: Your damage caps to the 20th level thanks to monk’s belt. Yourwand budget now allows more use of divine power and holy sword than ever, so these effects are now built into the combat statistics. You do not have most attacks yet – so your overall damage output will peak at level 16 (more about it then). Choose also the flyby feat – it gives you way more versatility in combat combined with your once more increased speed.
The advent of your quivering palm attack (which you can use also with any kind of attack, btw!) means that you could force with one attack altogether 5 fort saves of your enemy (stun, quivering palm, massive damage and poison, possible a touch spell) if you like.
Meanwhile, 8th level spells can start to threaten you. One oft-spread notion of a “win” spell is an arcane reached irresistable dance. What to do against this?
Well, there are actually now 4 defenses at your disposal: 1) your touch AC of 22 (quite good vs casters without true strike), 2) your Spell resistancre of 25), 3) your blink effect and 4) you could have a mind blank up – possibly all the time in case you use a spellstaff with it. Although the play thread mentioned in the introduction showcased that a monk hardly even needs a mind blank due to his other good defenses.
Then, sometimes forcecage is advocated as no-save wins for batman. Well, this also has now several defenses: 1) dimension door ability and 2) your brand-new rod of cancellation which gets rid of all force walls, cages and prismatic walls/spheres – without being used up, since that cost only applies to permanent magic items.


Level 16

STR 16, DEX 20 (+4 item, stat gain), CON 12, INT 14, WIS 18 (+4 item), CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (16/day, DC 22), Flyby Attack
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 80ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful/adamantine, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (32 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 25), Quivering palm (1/week, DC 22)
SKILLS: Move Silently +32 (DEX, 19 ranks, MW item, luck, boots), Hide +27 (DEX, 19 ranks, MW item, luck), Spot +31 (WIS, 19 ranks, MW item, eyes, luck), Listen +26 (WIS, 19 ranks, MW item, luck), Use Magic Device +19 (CHR, 9 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet, luck), Spellcraft +14 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item, luck), Knowledge-Arcane +10 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item, luck), Tumble +14 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, luck), Perform- Comedy +6 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet, luck), Jump +33 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move, luck), Diplomacy +20 (CHR, 15 ranks, MW item, circlet, luck)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX +4 (16,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+4 (16,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), Stone of Good luck (20,000), Rod of Cancellation (11,000), Wings of Flying (54,000), Boots of Elvenkind (2,500)
WAND BUDGET: 64,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +10 (DEX, feat, luck)
MOVE: 80ft (110ft flying)
AC 31 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, deflection, +4 enhance), 34 fighting defensively, 37 full defense (tumble)
HITS 81 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +11, Refl +14, Will +14 (+16 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +19 (+19/+19/+19/+14/+9); enlarged +24 (+24/+24/+24/+19/+14); with divine power and enlarge +31 (+31/+31/+31/+26/+21/+16)
UNARMED ATTACK: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+12/+7), blinking; Damage 4d8+2d6 +3, 6d8+2d6 +4 enlarged; with divine power and holy sword up, enlarged: +27 (+27/+27/+27/+22/+17/+12), Damage 6d8+2d6 +12 (or avg 46 damage per hit)

COMMENT: Well, joker’s damage output just peaked. Basically, when not using a blink and hitting with all attacks (and there are many wand buffs to shoot the attack and damage bonuses up even further), it means you do around 277 damage per round. This should be on par with what the other melee classes do at those levels.
The monk has now a good chance to survive and overcome just about anything a DM throws at him, and in various ways and tactics. And he should – because next level, 9th level spell craziness sets in. We’ll see what can be done about it..
Wings of flying are now available for 24/7 flight. You should get the bat wings variant to make fun of your victim....
The wings unfortunately replace your cloak of resistance. From your wand budget, you may wish to get an up to +5 cloak for some occasions to boost your saves and replace the wings with a wand of fly effect. Some wands spells, though, can also provide resistance boosts (like protection from evil).

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 08:22 AM
Level 17

STR 16, DEX 20 (+4 item), CON 12, INT 15 (age), WIS 19 (+4 item, age), CHR 9 (age)
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (16/day, DC 20), Flyby Attack
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 80ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful/adamantine, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (34 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 25), Quivering palm (1/week, DC 20), Timeless body, tongue of the sun and the moon (constant tongues as extraordinary ability)
SKILLS: Move Silently +28 (DEX, 20 ranks, MW item, luck), Hide +28 (DEX, 20 ranks, MW item, luck), Spot +32 (WIS, 20 ranks, MW item, eyes, luck), Listen +27 (WIS, 20 ranks, MW item, luck), Use Magic Device +19 (CHR, 9 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet, luck), Spellcraft +14 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item, luck), Knowledge-Arcane +10 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item, luck), Tumble +14 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, luck), Perform- Comedy +6 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet, luck), Jump +33 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move, luck), Diplomacy +23 (CHR, 18 ranks, MW item, circlet, luck)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+4 (16,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+4 (16,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), Stone of Good luck (20,000), Rod of Cancellation (11,000), Wings of Flying (54,000), Boots of Teleportation (49,000)
WAND BUDGET: 98,000 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +10 (DEX, feat, luck)
MOVE: 80ft (110ft flying)
AC 31 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, deflection, +4 enhance), 34 fighting defensively, 37 full defense (tumble)
HITS 86 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +12, Refl +15, Will +15 (+17 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +19 (+19/+19/+19/+14/+9); enlarged +24 (+24/+24/+24/+19/+14); with divine power and enlarge +32 (+32/+32/+32/+27/+22/+17)
UNARMED ATTACK: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+12/+7), blinking; Damage 4d8+2d6 +3, 6d8+2d6 +4 enlarged; with divine power and holy sword up, enlarged: +28 (+28/+28/+28/+23/+18/+13), Damage 6d8+2d6 +12 (or avg 46 damage per hit)

COMMENT: The monk now no longer takes penalties from ageing (magical or normal). To illustrate what it can mean, it is assumed above that joker now is middle-aged. This is debatable (ageing needs to coincide with level gains at that point), but it also has negligable effects for now.
Tongues constantly now is also a monk power. You may have noticed that since mid-levels, spare skill points were used to boost diplomacy. Now the monk can become a true master diplomat, even able to calm animals this way (the kind that can still outgrapple him, although this is a rarer and rarer occurance).
But what to do about those pesky 9th level spells? Well, one could go through them one by one (maybe at a later time). But the following combo by the joker can take care of most of it (including foresight):
Cast time stop (from scroll, your budget allows some uses), then teleport next to batman, cast AMF (from scroll or spellstaff). Profit.
One thing where the joker may be behind batman is in terms of intelligence (meaning research, finding out about the opponent). But you could try to find out stuff with diplomacy; or wands of legend lore and other divination spells can get you quite far.



Level 18:

STR 16, DEX 22 (+6 item), CON 12, INT 15, WIS 21 (+6 item), CHR 9
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (16/day, DC 26), Flyby Attack, Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 90ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful/adamantine, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (36 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 25), Quivering palm (1/week, DC 24), Timeless body, tongue of the sun and the moon (constant tongues as extraordinary ability)
SKILLS: Move Silently +30 (DEX, 21 ranks, MW item, luck), Hide +30 (DEX, 21 ranks, MW item, luck), Spot +34 (WIS, 21 ranks, MW item, eyes, luck), Listen +29 (WIS, 21 ranks, MW item, luck), Use Magic Device +19 (CHR, 9 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet, luck), Spellcraft +14 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item, luck), Knowledge-Arcane +10 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item, luck), Tumble +14 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, luck), Perform- Comedy +6 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet, luck), Jump +33 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move, luck), Diplomacy +26 (CHR, 21 ranks, MW item, circlet, luck)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+6 (36,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+6 (36,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), Stone of Good luck (20,000), Rod of Cancellation (11,000), Wings of Flying (54,000), Boots of Teleportation (49,000), Gem of Seeing (75,000)
WAND BUDGET: 103,000 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +11 (DEX, feat, luck)
MOVE: 90ft (120ft flying)
AC 33 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, deflection, +4 enhance), 36 fighting defensively, 39 full defense (tumble)
HITS 92 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +13, Refl +17, Will +17 (+19 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +20 (+20/+20/+20/+15/+10); enlarged +25 (+25/+25/+25/+20/+15); with divine power and enlarge +33 (+33/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18)
UNARMED ATTACK: +18 (+18/+18/+18/+13/+8), blinking; Damage 4d8+2d6 +3, 6d8+2d6 +4 enlarged; with divine power and holy sword up, enlarged: +28 (+29/+29/+29/+24/+19/+14), Damage 6d8+2d6 +12 (or avg 46 damage per hit)

COMMENT: The major event for joker abilities is that the stunning fist DC has jumped to 26, which is quite tough to beat for batman.
Also, you can now do a partial charge just outside see invisibiltiy and true seeing range (although it does not mean that much, since your hide skill even without invisibility is good enough). Meanwhile, your current most expensive item is the gem of true seeing – neutering all illusion spells used against you.


Level 19

STR 16, DEX 22 (+6 item), CON 12, INT 15, WIS 21 (+6 item), CHR 9
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (16/day, DC 26), Flyby Attack, Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 90ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful/adamantine, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (36 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 25), Quivering palm (1/week, DC 24), Timeless body, tongue of the sun and the moon (constant tongues as extraordinary ability), Empty body (etheralness up to 19 rounds/day).
SKILLS: Move Silently +31 (DEX, 22 ranks, MW item, luck), Hide +31 (DEX, 22 ranks, MW item, luck), Spot +40 (WIS, 21 ranks, MW item, robe, luck), Listen +30 (WIS, 22 ranks, MW item, luck), Use Magic Device +19 (CHR, 9 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet, luck), Spellcraft +14 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item, luck), Knowledge-Arcane +10 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item, luck), Tumble +14 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, luck), Perform- Comedy +6 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet, luck), Jump +33 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move, luck), Diplomacy +27 (CHR, 22 ranks, MW item, circlet, luck), Sense Motive +10 (WIS, 2 ranks, MW item, luck), Search +15 (INT, MW item, luck, robe)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (650 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+6 (36,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+6 (36,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), Stone of Good luck (20,000), Rod of Cancellation (11,000), Wings of Flying (54,000), Boots of Teleportation (49,000), Gem of Seeing (75,000), Robe of Eyes (120,000).
WAND BUDGET: 125,500 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +11 (DEX, feat, luck)
MOVE: 90ft (120ft flying)
AC 33 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, deflection, +4 enhance), 36 fighting defensively, 39 full defense (tumble)
HITS 97 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +13, Refl +17, Will +17 (+19 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +21 (+21/+21/+21/+16/+11); enlarged +25 (+26/+26/+26/+21/+16); with divine power and enlarge +34 (+34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19)
UNARMED ATTACK: +20 (+20/+20/+20/+15/+10), blinking; Damage 4d8+2d6 +3, 6d8+2d6 +4 enlarged; with divine power and holy sword up, enlarged: +30 (+30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15), Damage 6d8+2d6 +12 (or avg 46 damage per hit)

COMMENT: Well, there is not much more going on. This is the Joker’s level of etheralness, so to speak. Add in a robe of eyes for your so far vacant robe/armour slot (replacing the eagle eyes) and you’ll see etheral creatures before they see you. Plus, you are no longer flat-footed and can no longer be flanked.
Plus with empty body, even on a different plane you can actually always return to the primary plane with your etheralness ability – you go etheral, and then when can choose to get back to the prime material plane. You are the only non-spellcaster to do that trick (btw, etheralness actually gives you a flying effect).
You could get other items for 120,000 for the joker (say, an intelligent item as described for level 20, or inherent stat boosts) – it does not really matter.



Level 20:

STR 16, DEX 22 (+6 item), CON 14 (+2 item), INT 15, WIS 22 (+6 item, stat gain), CHR 9
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (16/day, DC 26), Flyby Attack, Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall (any distance), Ki-Magic/Lawful/adamantine, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (36 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 25), Quivering palm (1/week, DC 24), Timeless body, tongue of the sun and the moon (constant tongues as extraordinary ability), Empty body (etheralness up to 19 rounds/day), Perfect Self
SKILLS: Move Silently +32 (DEX, 23 ranks, MW item, luck), Hide +32 (DEX, 23 ranks, MW item, luck), Spot +41 (WIS, 22 ranks, MW item, robe, luck), Listen +31 (WIS, 23 ranks, MW item, luck), Use Magic Device +19 (CHR, 9 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet, luck), Spellcraft +14 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item, luck), Knowledge-Arcane +10 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item, luck), Tumble +14 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, luck), Perform- Comedy +6 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet, luck), Jump +33 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move, luck), Diplomacy +29 (CHR, 22 ranks, MW item, circlet, luck, synergy), Sense Motive +13 (WIS, 5 ranks, MW item, luck), Search +15 (INT, MW item, luck, robe)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (650 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gloves of DEX+6 (36,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Belt of Dwarvenkind (19,000), Amulet of WIS+6 (36,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000), Ring of Protection +2 (8,000), Stone of Good luck (20,000), Rod of Cancellation (11,000), Wings of Flying (54,000), Boots of Teleportation (49,000), Gem of Seeing (75,000), Robe of Eyes (120,000).
WAND BUDGET: 303,600 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +11 (DEX, feat, luck)
MOVE: 90ft (120ft flying)
AC 33 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour, deflection, +4 enhance), 36 fighting defensively, 39 full defense (tumble)
HITS 123 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +17, Refl +20, Will +21 (+23 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +22 (+22/+22/+22/+17/+12); with rightous might +28 (+28/+28/+28/+23/+18); with divine power and rightous might +36 (+36/+36/+36/+31/+26/+21)
UNARMED ATTACK: +21 (+21/+21/+21/+16/+11), blinking; Damage 4d8+2d6 +3, 6d8+2d6 +4 enlarged; with divine power and holy sword up, enlarged: +32 (+32/+32/+32/+27/+22/+17), Damage 6d8+2d6 +13 (or avg 47 damage per hit)

COMMENT: Congratulations! A joker at 20th level quite sight to behold. The treasure can go to all kinds of things. I like the intelligent item with special purpose “help joker vanquish all casters” with a dimension door ability to grant the monk full attack AND move in the same round. But it’s just crusting on the cake. One item you can afford to swap out is the monk’s belt, since you no longer get anything from stacking damage dice. The belt of dwarven kind costs almost the same and helps get you some benefits, like higher hp.
Perfect self now means you are an outsider for magical effects. This DOES carry some disadvantages, like being no longer able to use enlarge. So you should get rightous might effect instead (scroll or spell storing).
Advantages:
And at 20th level, you have DR 10/magic, meaning hardly anyone will be able to hurt you when grappling (which is non-magical damage for most). And of course, you can use alter self to turn into awesome creatures, for instance into a ravid granting perfect fly speed of 60ft and +15 natural AC.(courtesy Solo). …not necessarily the devil of Joker’s choice, though...

“Ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?” – The Joker


2. Other build ideas with UMD

"Little Sister" (based on House of Flying Dagger movie)
Main stat: CHR. Secondary stat(s): DEX, INT

Human Rogue 1/Monk 19
Some (not necessarily exhaustive) suggestions on:
FEATS: Negotiator, stunning fist, blind-fighting, combat reflexes, blind-fight, improved disarm, exotic weapon proficiency - net (scarf), Improved Natural Attack
SKILLS: Bluff, UMD, Diplomacy, Perform-Dance, jump, tumble, all stealth skills.
ITEMS: Circlet of Persuasion

COMMENT: This is an idea incorporating the thread's discussion on multi-classing and making better use of UMD when taking one level of rogue first.
This basically moves the monk more towards being the "skillmonkey" or filling the rogue's role, while improving his UMD ability.
On the other hand, he delays vital anti-magic skills (SR lower by 1 point, will save and enchantment bonus delayed by 1 level, other immunities and dimension door 1 level lateR). Plus, he also has 1 lower BAB, making it more difficult to do direct combat (including grappling).

Obviously, the rogue's bluff skill makes a good synergy - not only for diplomacy, but also for this girl's favourite trick to pose as blind (while not actually being blind, although she also has the blind-fight feat).
Basically, this is a "geisha" able to be quite deadly with an array of wand spells and surprise on her side in those moments her opponents let their guard down...(note that many monk mock threads brought up the idea that a "dancing girl" could be a good idea for a monk due to the immunity to disease...)
The good thing of rogue is also to get short sword proficiency for sword-swinging monk fluff.
The net should actually be a scarf and/or silk spiked chain variant with which little sister can disarm, distract, entangle etc. (though for fluff's sake this bends the core rules somewhat).


The true medieval scholar/healer monk...or "core Vow of Peace" monk
Main stat: WIS, secondary stat: DEX, INT.

Halfling Monk 20
FEATS: Skill Focus - Healing, Weapon Finesse, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm, combat expertise, Improved Natural Attack
SKILLS: knowledge-religion, knowledge-arcane, tumbling (5 ranks for fighting defensively), stealth, healing (X-class), UMD, spellcraft.
ITEMS: Wand of Chill Touch for a limited "turn undead" ability; wand of CLW; ranger wand of delay poison etc. small Undead bane staff, disruption (later)

This is mostly about a monk able to heal, aid, backup, and - if possible - only subduing enemies with unarmed strikes (only undead are to be destroyed).
The AC should be quite high by level 7 (with full expertise and fighting defensively, mage armour and ring of protection +1 around 30).

Adding a level of cleric first and then going monk is also entirely possibly, making all 1-4 level cleric spell available as wands without UMD.

Note that similar to the level 1 rogue/19 monk above, multiclassing lowers monk and combat abilities.


3. Other build ideas without UMD

Archer monk
DEX main stat, STR and WIS secondary

Elf monk 20 or Fighter 4/monk 15/shadow dancer 1
FEATS: Point blank shot, stunning fist, deflect arrows, rapid shot; (possibly weapon focus and weapon spc with the fighter levels), improved disarm, far shot, manyshot etc.
SKILLS: the whole stealth set (spot/listen/movesilently/hide). Not much more.
ITEMS: Archery items.

COMMENT: A monk makes a better archer than most would give him credit. First of all, either choose elf and/or bracers of archer as items to get the composite longbow.
Then some advantages of an archer monk:
- the full stealth skill set (like the ranger)
- the high move
- the ability to threaten adjacant squares even with a bow in the hand (unarmed strikes with stunning fist no less)
- deflect arrows bonus feat vs enemy archers
- dimension door ability
- poison immunity (can coat without problem own arrows in poison
- when using RAW, the quivering palm ability can also be used with a composite bow attack


Gladiator/pit fighter monk
(possibly a variant of the lord_khaine school)
Main stat STR, secondary DEX, CON

Half-Orc Monk 12/assassin 1/dragon disciple 7
FEATS: Exotic Wp Prof. Spiked Chain, Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Blind-Fight, Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack etc
SKILLS. no full stealth skill set, although listen would be good, as would be the 8 hide and move silently ranks each, and knowledge arcane for getting into dragon disciple eventually.

COMMENT: You want to have a monk fill fully a fighter role? Here it is. An idea to avoid prohibitive potion of enlarge costs is to get him "cursed" to be permanently enlarged by a quite high-level wizard or strength priest.
He would be thus quite powerful to grapple and trip.
Of course, this kind of monk will fall more often victim to spell attacks than the other monks.
Stealth is also quite limited here - although at high levels wands from assassin spells can help well (get a modified INT of 12 and you should be fine to cast your 1 assassin spell per day). Dragon disciple is great for a monk, since like polymorph it provides him with a better form to synergise with his class abilities.
STR eventually could be around 34
with dragon disciple, full stat gains, +6 enhance, enlarge effect (note that this monk build never reaches level 13 & up where enlarge becomes a problem).

In the grappling contest by Talic, I posted a detailed level 6 orc monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4449483&postcount=8), which is quite powerful.



Neo
"I know...Kung-Fu!"
Main stat DEX, secondary INT, WIS.

Human Monk 20
FEATS: Weapon Finesse, The whole two-weapon fighting tree, improved initiatve, stunning fist, improved natural attack, deflect bull..er arrows,
SKILLS: profession-computers, spot, listen, perform-acting (OK, one rank is enough...:smallsmile:), tumble (max out!), jump (ditto!!)
ITEMS: Boots of speed (for the full attack adding), ring spell storing with divine power (now THAT fits), fyling cloak, ring of blinking etc

COMMENT: It is debatable whether the level 20 monk-neo-considered-outsider can really emulate the great Matrix movie hero. But one can certainly give it a try for a fantasy world. DEX should be maxed like crazy (get a 30 at least by level 20, with inherent bonuses). Maybe still take Improved Grapple for the heck of it (he DOES move with Mr Smith up in a grapple in the undergorund).

With the two-weapon fighting tree, you could, when hasted, with divine power and flurry, get to a grand total of 10 melee attacks/round. That's the maximum in core (barring Hydra veritable Gauda morph).

If you can squeeze it in, get expertise/dodge/mobility/spring attack somehow for a whirlwind attack with a staff (you know the scene...).
You get 8 feats to spend - 3 for two-weapon fighting, 5 you could use for the whirlwind effect).

The fly speed of 120ft means around double the speed of a horse- but not as fast as Mr. Reeves moves around in best animated sequence technique.


Survive!
Zombie no magic item campaign:
Human Half-Orc 20

Main: DEX and WIS
FEATS: This is the opportuntiy for getting the dodge/mobility/spring attack theme at low levels.
SKILLS: Stealth, jump and tumble

COMMENTS: Avoid getting touched and contaminated for as long as possible! Grapple may or may not help you; plus your immunity to disease may or may not help you.
Hear/spot the zombie and trip it with a reach weapon before it reaches you!


4. Some ideas that came up from other posters in this thread for monk builds

Turcano’s non-core monk mageslayer build (paladin multiclass variant) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4349271&postcount=633) and

(hexblade multiclass variant) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4352504&postcount=696).

Pax_Chi providing good ideas of how to include SRD psionics into a core monk build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4450094&postcount=1321).


V. Appendix - Idea collection

1. Some notes on what wands to use with UMD

Level 1: Enlarge, Cure Lights Wounds, Chill Touch (also helps vs low-level undead; better than shocking grasp due to the STR damage potential), Faerie Fire (great cheap anti-invisibility tactics for all levels), Mage Armour (though you should preferably get that with your 1st level pearl of power from a party arcane caster or npc for longer duration), Bless Weapon (good for improved critical- unarmed strike builds), Obscuring Mist (great cheap low-level control vs missile and spell attacks), Shillelagh (the staff is a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it – and it will deal 3d6+1 damage when you are enlarged, and it counts as a magic weapon)

EDITED Note: Enlarge is such a key spell for your tactics at the levels up to 8 (and highly useful beyond), that you may wish to use the potion version instead of the wand to make CERTAIN that you cast it ahead of combat. Or, you could manage to get enough extra time ahead of combat because you are stealthier than the enemy.
Two more points:
From level 13-19, your SR will PREVENT you getting buffed with low-level enlarge effects from someone else, but not your own wand uses. You could also get a permanent enlarge, use the trick provided in the level 13 of the joker monk build above. Or get rightuous might from a scroll or ring of spell storing (possible from level 15 according to wbl).
At level 20, you are no longer a legal target for enlarge PERSON, since you are now considered an outsider for the purpose of magical effects. But your immense wbl lets you get plenty of buffing stuff galore for larger sizes.

Level 2: Silence (the poor man’s AMF, remarkably effective). Good hour/lvl buffs are darkvision and false life. Then possibly bull’s strength (for grapple boost) and heroism (from the bard list, lasts 40 minutes then) and POSSIBLY ghoul touch (EDIT2: Does it allow a save vs the parlysis effect or not? The description appears to refer the fort save only to the stench part. Note also that ghoul touch only affects humanoids, whereas the similar irresistible dance spell of 8th level affects all creatures. Check with your DM before choosing this one; I would lean towards the "no-save" fraction, but it certainly would be quite powerful)
Basically, for touch attacks at first and second level, chill touch is most effective, possibly chasing away undead, or lowering opponent's grapple check ontop of 1d6 damage. Meanwhile shocking grasp and touch of idiocy (possibly shutting down enemy spell casting without a save) are more stylish for a true “Joker”.
Level 3: Fly, Blink
Level 4: Divine Power, Holy Sword
Will update as soon as I get new ideas!


2. And on the issue of fluff ("A monk waving wands? Ridiculous!")...

You could easily emulate what the wands do by turning them for UMD joker monks into cloth belts (with the same weight, properties, sunderability etc) that are awared to the monk by his school and/or monastery between adventures.
So, you could have a monk with belts all the way up to black (with divine power, 50 charges, then higer black dan levels emulating spell level 5-9 one-short cloths for scroll effect).
A good place to look for inspiration is the cleric domain lists to see how a certain "school theme" could be provided from levels 1-9 spells over the monk's career from 1-20. Choose bonus feats and other feats as well as skills to match the fluff of the school.
EXAMPLE:
"Kung Fu Monkey Style"
Improved Grapple (big ape), Escape Artist (small ape), Improved Trip (big ape) or Improved Disarm (small ape)
Tier 1: Hide from Animals
Tier 2: Enlarge (big ape) or reduce (small ape)
Tier 3: Bull's Strength (big ape) or cat's grace (small ape)
etc.
All the way up to
Tier 7: Animal Form

"Lightning Style"
Level 1:
Tier 1: Shocking Grasp
Tier 2: Resist Energy
Tier 3: Fly
Tier 4: Dimension Door
Tier 5: Teleport
Tier 7: Control Weather
Tier 9: Time Stop

Be creative!



VI. Appendix 2 - Link Collection

1. External Links for some great monk sources

A great link compilation can be found on the WoTC boards, courtesy Surreal here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=6972406&postcount=2). Simply scroll down to "monks". It contains also links to some great monk builds, mainly focusing on the great damage-dealing potential or stunning fist attack builds. Incidently, there is also a link to this guide - but only in the thwarted version Azerion Kelimon put up unfairly, which is a pity.

MONKS IN ONLINE PLAY
The Joker monk is getting playtested!
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80837) is the level 6 testing in a group of three (with Solo as the sorcerer and Talic as the cloistered cleric companions). Note that this thread is the general rules discussion thread, while this is the actual play thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4367420#post4367420).

Then, there is a grappling competition (core, level 6) going on here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82831), where a monk build of mine - a variant of the joker monk - shows how powerful the monk is at low-medium level grappling tactics.

Currently, there are also duels on the line of the joker monk vs a batman wizard of levels 10 (vs Mojotech) and level 16 (vs Emperor_Tippy). Will try to keep you updated!

And for a highly entertaining read, Talic once started a playing thread of a 20th level group with monk played by lord_khaine, barbarian by Worira, sorcerer by Solo (who else?) and cleric by Rachel Lorelei to prove how weak monks are. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3830069#post3830069)
Unfortunately, the excercise stopped in the midst of the first serious encounter – up to that point it was unable to prove anything at all. What the thread (and its accompanying rules discussion thread) nicely illustrated, though, was a great many hints how ultra-high-level play might really work.

MONKS NON-CORE
A great link for monks outside core in particular can be found here…
Non-core monk by emeraldstreak (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=923529&page=7). But this link is also in the link collection by Surreal above.

MONKS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Monk as balanced? Any good at all?
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75472&page=31) is where some of the more heated debates on this subject has happened on these boards.

Will put in more links as I come across them!


2. A guide through this thread with 13 interim summary posts of mine (most of your answers to the joker monk build can be found here)

INTRODUCTORY NOTE: These are links to my comments, and - together with I write here - reflect MY opinion. Imo I interpret the rules and possibilities of the monk class correctly, while those of different opinion I believe do not.


My first answering post to criticism and interim summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4334737&postcount=72), disproving that a barbarian/ranger or rogue would be able to do (with our without UMD) what the joker monk can do, in particular with grappling. Likewise, Solo’s fallacy that monks get outgrappled at lower levels by most creatures is dealt with.
Plus, it also tried to set the basis for a fair discussion by excluding, for the time being, non-core build comparisons (some posted non-monks with superior unarmed strike or runescarred barbarians or whatever to show how bad the core monk is in comparison. Really!).
Finally, there are some comments of mine how to interpret “masterwork tools” for various things like UMD and spellcraft fluffwise.


2nd summarising interim comment of mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337059&postcount=164). It deals with a lot of continuously repeated fallacies: that the joker monk cannot make use of UMD, that the joker monk cannot outgrapple the majority of encouters in the levels he uses those tactis most often (1-8), that the monk is MAD, plus some fluff and alignment issues.


This is my third interim summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4343291&postcount=456). A great many questions are answered here (although it continues to be met with denial afterwards). I also deal at length with a post by Eldariel, responding at length to his (rather representative) criticism.


Draz74’s comments get responded to in more detail in this post of mine, which also serves as a fourth interim summary of the discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4347225&postcount=568).


This is the fifth interim summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4354575&postcount=720), answering in detail to the repetitive mistakes of some monk doubters. There is also a reply to a temporary poster who saw the guide at the WoTC boards and, understandably, had a lot of questions. NOTE that I commit the mistake in there to say that when multi-classing your max skill ranks when rising in level as a monk are still half his level, even when once having done a level dip in rogue (for UMD, for instance). This opened the way for more level dip/multiclass suggestions for a monk.


Short interim 6th summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4369133&postcount=790) opposing the odd idea that higher spot and listen will not help you get a surprise round vs opponents. Plus, also that of course the eversmoking bottle provides total concealment, thus impedes line of sight and the monk can no longer be targeted with a dispel magic.


Interim update No. 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4390237&postcount=836). The usual stuff. Plus, it is shown that once morhping stuff is in, the monk can at times outgrapple and keep definitely up with the druid in terms of grappling, throughout all levels.


Interim update No. 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4396733&postcount=902). Here, the fallacies that you cannot buy partially charged items, the eversmoking bottle is bad party tactics (a classic!) and misc. stuff is answered. Plus, for some reason, the effect of divine power to eventually yield +8 to hit, one more attack, +3 damage and +8 to grapple (with temp. Hp besides) are somehow seen as not providing the monk with enough oomph in high-level combat – a first reply is done here.
Note that lateron, the debate on partially charged items was settled by Lord_Silvanos that indeed, due to lack of explicit RAW, you cannot buy partially charged items during adventuring career, but that due to DMG p. 199 you can have them at your leisure for creating pcs above 1st level. This is enough for the purpose of this thread.


And no. 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4401221&postcount=934); a very detailed interim summary with a lot of information. Among other things, I take on the notion popping out all of a sudden that the joker monk should be able to consistently take on CR higher than his level, since all other classes can do that. Apparently a feeble attempt, after I proved that the monk CAN contribute nicely for the CR of his level, that the monk is still the weakest class.
Consequently, I pull down back to reality the idea that a level 10 wizard can take on CR 11 encounters easily.


To celebrate the 10th interim summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4420770&postcount=989), I summarily (pun intended...) deal with Kurald Galain, Solo, Chosen_of_Vecna and Talic who all repeat their same fallacies over and over again.
Something new in this post: I acknowledge Lord Silvanos’ Salomonic ruling that partially charged wands are only available for creating above level 1 pcs, not purchasable during an ongoing campaign.


This is interim comments summary No. 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4435691&postcount=1123), quite short and focusing on the lingering doubts that the monk can do high damage and powerful grappling.
This is where the discussions ultimately lead to the Grappling contest initiated by Talic (see also the playtest links).


And No. 12 interim summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4449665&postcount=1311). There was a good point made by Signmakerens that familiars would also make great wand wielders with the improved familiar feat. Then, I pointed out that all characters can take the leadership feat and get exactly the same effects. Most DMs will not enjoy those classes with companion-like stuff to actively play it, in case they do not like them running several characters. Those who do, though, would also readily admit the use of leadership feat for special mounts, cute companions like the pseudodragon (for a fighter, for example) etc. Not allowing the leadership feat in this case would be just unfair.


And so far the last interim summary of mine (No. 13) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4456360&postcount=1347). You’ll find in there some news on how the two Batman vs Joker duels (level 10 vs Mojotech and level 16 vs Emperor Tippy) are evolving (before that, a lot discussion went down to outline the conditions of the duels).
Also, I respond to Stupendous_Man with his question how a monk would fare in a campaign with only few magic.
In there I forgot to mention that grappling in such a setting would be vastly increased in effectiveness, from levels 1-20, since freedom of movement and huge creatures would not be so abundant anymore.
I also suggest that the mage’s disjunction spell may be disappointing in its effect for some...although greenknight provided a custserv ruling here
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4459191&postcount=1353



3. A Collection of more links to guide you through this thread

INTRODUCTORY NOTICE: Just like in VI.2. above, this is a personal opinion of mine - many may find the choice biased to fit my opinion - of course it is! However, I try to never potray something wrongly. Please point where you feel I am wrong, but be prepared to meet with critical countercomments...:smallcool:

POSITIVE REVIEWS:
You could get the impression from the length of the thread full of monotonously repeated same (faulty) criticism that everyone would reject the ideas of the guide. But fortunately, some see the light...

By KIDS
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4334045&postcount=35

By lord_khaine
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4334248&postcount=47

By Deepblue706
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4336859&postcount=163

By Quirinius Obsidian
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337761&postcount=258

By Cenghiz
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4423643&postcount=1032

By Stupendous_Man
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4455789&postcount=1345

A good early reminder by Ne0 of what is wrong with a lot of the criticism posted (in particular adressing Solo and Nebo),
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337877&postcount=270

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4344945&postcount=518
Good, short, comments on a lot of criticism by TurkishProverb and Ne0

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4354166&postcount=705
Oslecamo provides a thoughtful insight on the typical double standards of wizard fans.


CRITICAL INDIVIDUAL POSTS AND MY COMMENTS
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4334938&postcount=106
A good example of a, for once, critical and at the same time fair comment, by Draz74.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4343580&postcount=478
And another one of his.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4423234&postcount=1020
Here, starting with Behold_the_Void, I respond to the odd notion that the human joker monk can be outgrappled by fighters and barbarians with STR bonus races like half-orc and orc devoted to grappling and that this shows how weak monks are at grappling. Of course the joker monk is outgrappled by those specialists!
But to show that the whole monk class is better at grappling than those specialised grapplers, of course you also need to assume a max STR orc/half-orc monk grappler – who then is ahead, since fighter and barbarian cannot afford as much to put all their point buy into a starting STR of 18 AND DEX of 15 (to keep improved grapple when enlarged). It is definitely impossible for them to do all that and get the INT of 15 for the orc to obtain improved trip which is a highly useful feat for high STR builds. The orc monk can.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337181&postcount=181
In this post, I disprove entirely Reel On, Love’s fallacy that the joker monk will not be able to grapple the significant majority of CR3 creatures at level 3. Actually,even the joker monk can outgrapple almost all (not to mention what a monk focused on grappling could do). And even deal with the fearsome Allip at that level. Needless to say that Reel On, Love, never admittted being shown wrong here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4343586&postcount=479
Here I deal with the fallacy brought up by Reel on, Love, that I would think the posters at the WoTC maximisation boards are all bad – actually, there are many highly skilled posters on those boards who also (successfully) challenged the alleged caster supremacy.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4395053&postcount=879
Here, Reel on Love’s continued criticism is disproven that the joker monk allegedly cannot afford his consumable items, or even UMD them.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337254&postcount=191
In this post, I try to convince Talic of the wrongness of his criticism, one of which was his wrong notion that the joker monk will never be able to safely activate wand, although the build I posted showed it from level 15, and with some imagination even possbile around level 11. After that, his criticism got even worse (inventing new wbl rules to show that the joker monk cannot afford wands, saying that FAQ is not a valid source for rules questions, etc.). It’s for you to decide who you think is right. In later posts, Talic commits some of the most outrageous rules errors in this thread, trying to avoid admitting he is wrong imo.
Here the second large comment of mine on Talic’s posts
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337514&postcount=230
And here a third...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4394654&postcount=863
And a fourth
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402122&postcount=947

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402307&postcount=950
Here is where Chosen_of_Vecna, almost as stubborn as Talic, is responded to. Chosen_of_Vecna had various criticisms, which I all showed to be wrong; among others:
- that the joker monk cannot do as much damage as a rogue or fighter at high levels
- that a level 10 wizard, rogue or cleric can take on consistently higher CR creatures, so a monk failing to do that is weak
- that I allegedly “hate” non-core rules (whereas the only thing I did was to point out that it does not make much sense to compare my core build to non-core material; which has also been pointed out by many posters before in this thread.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4436554&postcount=1224
Here is where I reply to Chosen_of_Vecna starts a flurry (so to speak) of attempts to prove that a level 15 orc fighter will clearly outdamage a monk. He fails, in part due to faulty assumptions and wrong math.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4445079&postcount=1289
Here is my final say on the matter – although Chosen_of_Vecna remained unconvinced in subsequent posts.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4402496&postcount=951
In this post Griffin131’s ideas are dealt with – not anything that others have not brought up; but I provide responses for the usual doubts in the sense of using the eversmoking bottle, and also that, no, level 10 clerics and rogues will NOT be able to take on CR 11 creatures consistently (reasons being in short that many CR 11 creatures are immune to sneak attacks or could get concealment, and that many CR 11 creatures are faster than the armoured archery cleric).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337338&postcount=207
Here, I oppose Solo’s constant funny, but still wrong remarks. I also outline where in the DMG the basis for assuming partially charged wands are found.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337578&postcount=233
This is a second reply to more of Solo’s comments. Basically, Solo’s criticism of a monk using UMD is tantamout to the notions that 1) this is not viable since this uses outside sources for buffs (actually the opposite is true) and 2) magic is monopolised by casters (which, as shown by wbl, and buffs, plus UMD is not true).
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4435909&postcount=1144
Another one of Solo’s many posts, this time with the new notion that even IF the joker monk is keeping with the fighter or even better, then only because there are to many “resources spent”. I.e. too much effort. Which I show to be not true. (only if you consider building any character from scratch is an effort).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337361&postcount=211
This is quite a short reply to SweetRein, but it’s quite important since it deals with the typical fallacy “a commoner can use a candle of invocation, so the monk using a wand is stupid” (insert also the UMD expert out-fighting a monk, a favourite fallacy of Kurald Galain).
Plus, I show where the rogue and monk can differ in what they UMD: obscuring mist helps the blind-fighting monk for attacking combat purposes, but not the rogue who could no longer sneak attack.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337373&postcount=216
In this, I reply to Stoopidtallkid making an issue on “a monk always flees” when the monk only uses his superior move and stealth skills. Plus, the monk does make a good party member and the joker monk has plenty of group contribution.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4424891&postcount=1054
This is where I reply to of the more desperate attempts to ridicule the joker monk (by Stoopidtallkid). He says a heavy horse animal companion can outgrapple the monk (wrong) and that you should therefore just play a horse...oh well.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337555&postcount=232
Arguing against Renegade_Paladin’s notion that the barbarian always outfights the joker monk – but I readily admit that the barbarian is probably stronger at melee on average. Which is why the monk has so much other stuff he can do.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337971&postcount=281
Here, I make reference to Zanatos777 build of a 10th level wizard to illustrate how good a joker monk can deal with typical wizards of that level. Interestingly, soon after, Solo posted a 10th level version of his famed Ozymandias sorcerer build, somewhat stronger, but with scrolls of polymorph (cheese!) and freedom of movement (which he cannot cast without UMD).
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4338100&postcount=294
It would be interesting to see that one take on a level 10 Joker, but Mojotech got the first shot here...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4394964&postcount=875
For once, Kurald Galain tries to make a more lenghty contribution with a thought-up scenario of his to prove the joker monk cannot do anyhting in combat at level 10. Of course I prove him wrong...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4435828&postcount=1132
And here I comment on one of the few posts of Nebo to actually contain some content – but it is shown that his perceptions of the game are astoundingly wrong, explaining in part why he refuses to ever respond in detail or give constructive criticism of the joker monk guide and build.



Well, I hope even after 45+ pages of thread, you continue to enjoy!

- Giacomo

Nebo_
2008-05-17, 08:23 AM
Behold! It has arrived!

Now, in case anyone reading this thinks that it's actually a serious guide to monks, I should point out that this is an impractical and backwards attempt at optimisation. If you want a good monk, go elsewhere or play a Swordsage.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 08:24 AM
Just try not to include any obvious untruths, like "any party will be delighted to build themselves around your eversmoking bottle" and "you can obviously buy any number of wands in any number of charges, because that's 100% the same thing as occasionally being able to find non-fully-charged wands."

ETA: And I see we've hit "partially charged wands" already.

If you find them, you can sell them. If you sold it, you can buy it back (unless someone else did first).

But if you want a 1-charge wand of Divine Power, that means someone had to use 49 charges of a wand of Divine Power, and then sell it. What are the odds of that? You can only have partially charged wands if the DM explicitly decides to give them to you.

Solo
2008-05-17, 08:26 AM
My avatar compliments your guide perfectly.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 08:28 AM
If only Giacomo's Monks got Black Belt's ability to ignore the rules of the game so long as he wasn't aware of them, Solo.

Morty
2008-05-17, 08:32 AM
And thus, another round of Sir Giacomo's battle against Logic, Rules and Hard, Cold Facts begins. You can't deny him persistence.

Nohwl
2008-05-17, 08:32 AM
hooray, a guide to monks!

Solo
2008-05-17, 08:33 AM
If only Giacomo's Monks got Black Belt's ability to ignore the rules of the game so long as he wasn't aware of them, Solo.

Or if they took a few pages out of Red Mage's notebook, like the sacred ritual of the Stat Swap!


And thus, another round of Sir Giacomo's battle against Logic, Rules and Hard, Cold Facts begins. You can't deny him persistence.
I could deny it if I liked. I could deny anything if I liked, but he certainly is persistent.

(-ly wrong, might I add :smalltongue:)

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 08:33 AM
BTW, I hope there'll be sample builds included. That way we can track how much you're spending on magic items (how many wands? Divine Power AND Holy Sword AND Blink AND Fly AND... just when can you afford that? How fast do you go through them?), what you can actually do (no more Shroedinger's Monk, who somehow is both high-DEX and high-STR at the same time and have 8 different skills maxed), and so on.

These builds should also track your UMD total (since you're going to be using the skill a lot) and chance of success.

Also, PLEASE try not to assume you will get to spend multiple rounds buffing before every single fight. Anyone who's played D&D knows that that's a rarity.


Oh, and another thing: monks don't need cloaks of resistance? Yes they do! Without them, their saves are only mediocre. A good save progression isn't enough.


ETA 2: Ahh, of course, "just use AMF."
Please explain how to use AMF, move up, and grapple in the same round. You know, for those rare occasions when you can't have a long time to buff ahead of time.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 08:35 AM
http://macrochan.org/source/D/I/DIPJ3WPYCWBFQQXQKOHT7GZ4PDCAR4MU.jpg

You had me at the title, Giacomo.

greenknight
2008-05-17, 08:39 AM
If you're a single classed Monk, you can't create magical items, and you can't cast spells (although you can use magical items which can cast spells for you). In other words, if you're relying on magical items, you need the Batman, but it can be demonstrated that the Batman doesn't need you. That's not beating Batman IMO, it's just using Batman's own tools against him. If you're really going to beat Batman, you need to show how the Monk can do it without relying on some other class for assistance.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 08:40 AM
Oh, and another thing: monks don't need cloaks of resistance? Yes they do! Without them, their saves are only mediocre. A good save progression isn't enough.

It's not? Well, doesn't he already assume good Dex and Wis scores, so you're kinda okay on 2 anyway?

Edit: Poking at Gia's build a little before I get back to my cleaning, but I don't think you can get Masterwork items of any-damn-skill-you-please..

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 08:43 AM
It's not? Well, doesn't he already assume good Dex and Wis scores, so you're kinda okay on 2 anyway?

Dex, possibly, sure. Who targets a monk's Reflex save anyway?
Will will be decent, but definitely beatable, since the monk is either cranking STR or DEX, and leaving WIS at (presumably) a reasonable amount.

Monks need cloaks of resistance if they want to be able to rely on their saves.

Now I sleep. Back tomorrow.

de-trick
2008-05-17, 08:45 AM
reserved to see if this turns out good or bad

InkEyes
2008-05-17, 08:52 AM
Well Giacomo, you definitely deserve an award of some kind for how dedicated you are to Monks. I'll wait and see if what you say is effective in-game.

Griffin131
2008-05-17, 08:54 AM
On your level 20 build, you've allocated 650gp for MW items for every skill you listed. From the SRD, it looks like skill MW items cost 100gp each.

You owe some more gold - I didnt look to see if you had any left tho, so you might, so this is irrelevant. Just wanted to point it out.

Tengu
2008-05-17, 08:55 AM
In Disgaea, I named my brawler Giacomo. To honor the man who will defend monks even with his dying breath. His cause might be a delusion, but you have to respect the determination.

warmachine
2008-05-17, 09:02 AM
I'm trying envisage what tools are used in Use Magical Device that can be made masterwork. The task of making a wand operate requires force of personality and seems inherently toolless. The magical device itself is not a tool for the purposes of making it work. As tools are mundane items, they must be plausible. One cannot simply say "Magic!" because they're mundane. This is a question my DM would ask. I'd ask the question if I was the DM.

While we're at it, what are the tools for Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Tumble and Jump? Presumably the masterwork tools for Perform (Comedy) could be a slapstick or a kazoo.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 09:02 AM
/me breaks out the popcorn.

Sorry Gia, but my samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3660260) still has you beat. "Now remember that the casters in your party, particularly the wizard, aren't there to torch the enemies with magic. Everybody on the boards these days knows that blasting spells do much less damage than a melee attack. Obviously, negative status effect spells are even worse, since a blast spell can kill things, and a debuff can't. No, the casters are there to provide buffs for your Samurai character. From True Strike to Righteous Might, all spellcasting classes have good spells that make your already strong Samurai even better. After all, the characters are a team and should work together. Remind the other players that they aren't just playing for themselves; there is no I in "dungeon"."

Rutee
2008-05-17, 09:04 AM
Something I'd like to point out on his UMD-ness.

The build relies on it, I think we all knew that. He can not reliably (I call it 'reliable' if you have a 75% chance to do it. That's been my bench mark for quite a while now, except when I decide it's 80%) succeed on UMD Checks for Wands until level 9.

He will never gain the ability to reliably UMD a first level scroll.


In Disgaea, I named my brawler Giacomo. To honor the man who will defend monks even with his dying breath. His cause might be a delusion, but you have to respect the determination.
He would be a determinator if he were awesome.

Bauglir
2008-05-17, 09:10 AM
A word of warning: since UMD is cross-class, other classes have an easier time using it. Same problem as the Fighter, IMO. The monk can do it, but others do it better.

EDIT: sorta ninja'd

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 09:19 AM
So if I take the UA variant Rogue that gets fighter bonus feats, focusing entirely on Unarmed Combat and Grappling... and max my UMD (since its a class skill)... Have I just become a better monk?

Cause... monks just are unarmed UMD machines... right?

Talya
2008-05-17, 09:21 AM
He's rather Quixotic, don't you think?

Bryn
2008-05-17, 09:22 AM
While we're at it, what are the tools for ... Jump?

http://www.dynamiksport.co.uk/images/Spring%20Boots.jpg
http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2007/5/anti-grav-boots.jpg

That bit of silliness out the way, I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said, except for one thing. For a guide explaining how to play monks, there does seem to be a lot of talk about how monks are the equal of wizards... not just in the 'myths' section but running throughout. Also, I'm not entirely sure that the Joker is the best choice of character, since as an antagonist, the Joker will always eventually lose to Batman; perhaps not the best choice of metaphor? :smalltongue:

Apart from that, in terms of writing and tone it's nice and amusing throughout. In terms of the actual advice being given, however; well, I'll go get the Goggles. Oh wait, they do nothing![/meme]

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 09:23 AM
I feel the need to point out that in the comics, the joker has consistently failed to beat Batman. Ah, the irony :smallbiggrin:


(edit) ninja'ed.

Dhavaer
2008-05-17, 09:23 AM
While we're at it, what are the tools for Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Tumble and Jump? Presumably the masterwork tools for Perform (Comedy) could be a slapstick or a kazoo.

Padded shoes, camoflage gear, lenses of some description, a ear trumpet, don't know, a book, padded clothes and possibly shoes with springs on them, if you're feeling a little silly.

Quite a few of these items are in the Arms & Equipment Guide.

Solo
2008-05-17, 09:24 AM
So if I take the UA variant Rogue that gets fighter bonus feats, focusing entirely on Unarmed Combat and Grappling... and max my UMD (since its a class skill)... Have I just become a better monk?

Cause... monks just are unarmed UMD machines... right?

No, cause you don't get the cool monk abilities, like slow falling, talking to Pochahontis and all her little woodland friends, and being able to kill some one once per week (and watching them die a week later).

Suck it, UA variant Rogue that focuses on unarmed combat, with plentiful fighter bonus feats, high skill points, and UMD as a class skill.


Padded shoes, camoflage gear, lenses of some description, a ear trumpet, don't know, a book, padded clothes and possibly shoes with springs on them, if you're feeling a little silly.

Shoes with padded springs, of course!

mostlyharmful
2008-05-17, 09:28 AM
Thank you Giacomo. This is obviously quite a lot of work and although I disagree with virtually everything you say It's still impressive how much effort you're prepared to put into the Gonk

Solo
2008-05-17, 09:30 AM
Thank you Giacomo. This is obviously quite a lot of work and although I disagree with virtually everything you say It's still impressive how much effort you're prepared to put into the Gonk

As an Asian, I feel obligated to point out that, while I do not find the term offensive, some might.

Solo
2008-05-17, 09:33 AM
The Joker indeed.

Hey, you remember who always won those great Saturday morning and comic book duels between the two great literary characters of the 20th century?

Note: Ninja'd. Or perhaps Batman'd. Hopefully not Superman'd



“We need to be enlightened by the OMFGWTFBBQ Ultimate Monk Build” – Solo
And we who have waited to be enlightened are now found wanting.



So here, in a nutshell, are the two Giamonk principles:
1. Get spells that synergise greatly with the monk abilites
2. Get items that synergise greatly with the monk abilities

So here, in a nutshell, are the two Giamonk principles:
1) Play caster
2) Pimp out on items bigtime (Seriously, strain on WBL much?)



DMG p. 212-215 outlines how magic items shoudl be handled. At the bottom of page 214 even the process of pricing a partially charged wand is explained and that player characters can of course sell them when having found them in treasures. Now, I wonder, if they can sell them why should they not be able to buy them? Why should there be only a market for new cars, but not for used ones?

You can sell a 1988 Audi at any used car lot, but the chances of going to any used car lot and finding a 1988 Audi are much smaller. Understood?

By the way, can you quote the specific text for those of us without a copy of the DMG?



Most of the times, you’ll read about a very popular monk myth, the multi ability dependence (MAD). Allegedly, the monk has to have more high stats everywhere than everyone else
True, the monk can make use out of great scores in all his abilites. So can everyone else. No difference. So everyone is MAD (multi ability dependendet), to the same degree. Or no one is. It is that simple.


You only need INT and moderate DEX/CON to be an effective wizard. An effective monk needs more than good ONESTAT and moderate OTHERSTAT/OTHERSTAT. Thus they are MAD by the additive property of addition.


Here’s a short list of stuff either ONLY the monk can do or can do best in core.
- best grappler (No. of attacks, damage, bonus feat, spc additional effects like stunning fist- Note: FAQ has nerfed to no longer use stunning fist to be possible alongside grapple damage, so use unarmed strike with stun before grapple or in grapple at -4. His medium BAB does not matter much, and he can easily overcome it – see below)
- fastest scout (highest move, spot/listen/move silently/hide as class skills). Combined with the highest movement speed this means the monk has the highest chance of achieving a surprise melee attack.

1. As Talic's table of CR appropriate and under CR monsters has shown, your grapple modifier will be outclassed by a lot of monsters in the DMG.
2. Barbarians move quickly too.
3. How are you maxing out spot/listen/move silently/hide while also having enough skill points to max out UMD and avoiding MAD?


Highest base damage dice eventually.
Base damage is weak if you don't have the muscle to back it up. That means you'll need high strength. MAD yet?


Level 10 Joker

UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged
Lol.

Avrg. 12 dmg, 17.5 enlarged @ lvl 10.

Lulz


GRAPPLE: +14 (+14/+14/+9); enlarged +19 (+19/+19/+14)
That's all?
Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan, CR10, grapple mod +37 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm)
Guardian Naga, CR10, grapple mod +17 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/naga.htm)
Animated Object, Colossal, CR10, grapple mod +49 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm)
Eleven Headed Hydra, CR10, grapple mod +25 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm)
Black Pudding, CR7, grapple mod +17 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm) (No idea why this showed up on my SRD google searchf or CR10 monsters)
Clay Golem, CR10, modifier +19 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm)

All CR10 monsters my search has turned up for the first two/three pages seem to do better at you in grapple. I think you can see my point.

Talic had a monstrous table of grappling monsters. You remember it? It seemed to make the same point.



SAVES: Fort +9, Refl +10, Will +10 (+12 vs enchantment)
Ozymandias can toss out a DC23 Save or X spell at your level. 20 (+5) CHA, +4 (+2) item, +1 School Focus (pre-req for Archmage), +5 from a level 5 spell (Baleful Polymorph, anyone?) + 10 = +23
Your fort save succeeds on a 14. that is a 70% chance of failure. But I'm sure your 3d8+4 base damage and your +14(+19) grapple mod make up for it.

In conclusion,

http://www.4guysfromviewpoint.com/uploadedimages/BlackMage.JPG


YAY!

http://a659.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/53/s_94a25ed54d2943c3d869cf2849a66872.gif

Rutee
2008-05-17, 09:42 AM
On the UMD note, he definitely talks about relying on Wands as early as 4th and 5th level. He has a +9 at this level; A 50% chance to succeed. These are on buffs he claims one /needs/..

mostlyharmful
2008-05-17, 09:50 AM
As an Asian, I feel obligated to point out that, while I do not find the term offensive, some might.

This is an already used term? hm, wasn't aware of it, sorry. Just used it for the onomatopoeia, Giamonk just seems to involve too much Monk and since this build uses almost nothing of the Monks base abilities or designers intent the squashed together hodge-podge of rogue and wizard and Barb tactics seemed to cry out for something less monk-ish and more gunked-up-mixture-of-stuff type word. Sorry if I offended anyone.:smallredface:

KIDS
2008-05-17, 09:50 AM
Nicely done Giacomo, though I still disagree with you (and think that monks could use a boost even if they're not so horrid as everyone says) that was a nice read. Enjoy your flames :P

Solo
2008-05-17, 09:52 AM
Nicely done Giacomo, though I still disagree with you (and think that monks could use a boost even if they're not so horrid as everyone says) that was a nice read. Enjoy your flames :P

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=78104&rendTypeId=4


(Funeral Pyre)

Rutee
2008-05-17, 09:55 AM
By the way, can you quote the specific text for those of us without a copy of the DMG?
I missed that.


"Many items, particularly wands and staves, are limited in power by the number of charges they hold. Normally, charged items have 50 charges at most. If such an item is found as a random part of a treasure, roll d% and divide by 2 to determine the number of charges left (Round down, minimum 1). If the item has a maximum number of charges other then 50, roll randomly to determine how many charges are left. For example, a random ring of three wishes has 1d3 wishes left.

Prices listed are always for fully charged items (When an item is created, it is fully charged.) For an item that's worthless when its charges run out (Which si teh case for almost all charged items), the value of the partially used item is proportional to the number of charges left. A wand with 20 charges, for example, is worth 40% of the value of a fully charged wand (With 50 charges). For an item that has usefulness in addition to its charges, only part of the item's value is based on the number of charges left (DM's discretion).

Nothing in here about being able to buy one, just what it's worth.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 10:02 AM
Y'know what's the worst thing, guys?

The Joker is already another class. I'm talking about the psion, who, with Hypercognition and Sensitivity to Psychic impression, plus metafaculty, can track down even a Tippy Wizard and eliminate a big part of his protections, and even stand up to him. This is an insult to one of the most deliciously delirious villains ever.

PS: WOOHOO! Alliteration!

AmberVael
2008-05-17, 10:23 AM
While I find this build to be an interesting concept, it looks like you could pretty much simulate this down to every detail with a Rogue... and they might actually do it better due to their skill with UMD.

It's not so much a build of a monk that you are creating here, but a selection of items meant to achieve a certain goal. While there is nothing wrong with that, the problem comes in when you point out that it isn't so much the Giamonk as the Gia-Bargain Basement of Used Wands- which can be duplicated by most classes who decide to put ranks in UMD, or surpassed by classes that have it as a Trained Skill.
Let me say this: 50% is not a "solid thing." That is a 50% chance of losing your best action, that is half chance of doing positively nothing. Congratulations, you essentially cast Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm) on yourself by choosing this route. Also- what kind of masterwork item is going to help out UMD, hm? Hide I can see a ninja suit. Move silently I can see tight shoes and a tight ninja suit to prevent anything from rubbing or the like. Listen- I can see some kind of weird ear device modeled after elven ears. But UMD? What- are you going to put on a large blue pointy hat to try and prove to the device that you're really a wizard who can use wands? Sarcasm aside, I'm not sure any DM would really allow a MW item for something like UMD.

In a preemptive defense of the rogue's damage dealing- you point out that the monk has base damage equal to a rogue's sneak attack a lot. One problem- that Rogue has a weapon. We'll say, a short sword. Oh, and they likely have some kind of bonus to it, whether it is an enchantment bonus or maybe a strength bonus, or possibly one of those nifty little cheap weapon crystals from the magic item compendium. "But they can't use Sneak Attack all the time" you say- well you can't use your wands all the time either, and it seems to me there is a greater chance for the Rogue to find someone to flank with than there is a chance for you to use your wand (which is what gives you your good damage).

In short, you have some interesting and possibly good ideas for what to buy, but the monk is hardly the best user of all those items. Try another class and it might work better.

Solo
2008-05-17, 10:27 AM
But UMD? What- are you going to put on a large blue pointy hat to try and prove to the device that you're really a wizard who can use wands?

Blue robes, yellow gloves, yellow straw or cloth hat, white porcelain mask....

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 10:29 AM
And the activation words are the optimizationale.

And every time you succeed, you can hear the distant shouts of hysteric fangirls.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 10:37 AM
Let's see here. You have +19 UMD at level 20. That means to cast a level 9 scroll, you need to roll a 10, so 55% chance of success.

Assume a level 20 rogue with a 10 charisma. Skill focus (UMD) and Magical Aptitude.

23 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2 magical aptitude. I can cast level 9 scrolls by rolling a 1.

Not to mention the Circlet of Persuation (+3), Spellsight Spectacles (+5 UMD for casting from scrolls), +2 (synergy from Decipher Script)

That's a +38. Overkill? Maybe. Much better at doing what the Giamonk does? Definately.

Gorbash
2008-05-17, 10:37 AM
Let's see here. You have +19 UMD at level 20. That means to cast a level 9 scroll, you need to roll a 10, so 55% chance of success.

Actually... The average roll on D20 is 10.5. So it isn't even 50%, it's about 47.5%.

Well, even though there is nothing in this guide that gives monk even a remote chance of beating batmen, the idea that monks can beat wizards is still a funny one. I won't even bother trying to explain why is that impossible, since a monk that relies on non-monk abilities to be able to (allegedly) do something isn't even a real monk.

I got a good laugh, at least.

Solo
2008-05-17, 10:41 AM
And the activation words are the optimizationale.


For the record: The Optimizationale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4287516&postcount=98) (It unites the human race)

Telonius
2008-05-17, 10:48 AM
You mentioned Scrolls. You'll be fine on Divine scrolls, but your INT is only 15. You'll need to emulate an ability score if you want to use a higher-level arcane scroll. Unfortunately at level 20 you only have an average result of 14.5 INT from UMD. You're going to need to rely on NPC casting if you want to use higher-level scrolls reliably.

The Speed for the Monk isn't correct, if he's wearing the Ring of Blinking.


You can move at only three-quarters speed (because movement on the Ethereal Plane is at half speed, and you spend about half your time there and half your time material.)


So you'll only be moving 67.5 (I believe that means 65, correct?), not 90, per round. That will knock down your Jump check, too.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-05-17, 10:53 AM
@Giacomo:
Thank you for finally posting your guide, I was getting bored without any interesting Monk vs the world debates going on.

lord_khaine
2008-05-17, 10:54 AM
i think people should take their time to read this, instead of just making fun of it, for though i do disagree on some of the things, then you can still learn quite a few usefull things, about how to play a monk.


And we who have waited to be enlightened are now found wanting.
those who dont want to look usualy dont find anything...


So here, in a nutshell, are the two Giamonk principles:
1) Play caster
2) Pimp out on items bigtime (Seriously, strain on WBL much?)

well the most succesfull classes are either casters, or using casterlike mechanics, so how can it be a surprise that other classes tries to emulate some of those points?


You only need INT and moderate DEX/CON to be an effective wizard. An effective monk needs more than good ONESTAT and moderate OTHERSTAT/OTHERSTAT. Thus they are MAD by the additive property of addition.

you can make a effective monk with 1 good stat, and moderate other stats.
if you adhere to Khaines school of monks you focus on str, and dump int&char.


1. As Talic's table of CR appropriate and under CR monsters has shown, your grapple modifier will be outclassed by a lot of monsters in the DMG.
2. Barbarians move quickly too.
3. How are you maxing out spot/listen/move silently/hide while also having enough skill points to max out UMD and avoiding MAD?

i disagree about that table, if your monk is proberly build, then you can grapple/trip a lot of the solomonsters you face, and most of those that attacks in groups.
this is especaly true if you are also fighting humanoids or things with class levels.


That's all?
Monstrous Scorpion, Gargantuan, CR10, grapple mod +37
Guardian Naga, CR10, grapple mod +17
Animated Object, Colossal, CR10, grapple mod +49
Eleven Headed Hydra, CR10, grapple mod +25
Black Pudding, CR7, grapple mod +17 (No idea why this showed up on my SRD google searchf or CR10 monsters)
Clay Golem, CR10, modifier +19

All CR10 monsters my search has turned up for the first two/three pages seem to do better at you in grapple. I think you can see my point.

Talic had a monstrous table of grappling monsters. You remember it? It seemed to make the same point.


when you sit down and actively try and find monsters to support your theori of monks not being able to grapple effectively, then of course you will find them.
if you wantet to actualy make a usefull contribution to this thread, then you should have includet all the CR 9-10 monsters, instead of just those that support your konklussion.

also, 2 of the monsters on your list would be beaten in a grapple by one of my monks.


Ozymandias can toss out a DC23 Save or X spell at your level. 20 (+5) CHA, +4 (+2) item, +1 School Focus (pre-req for Archmage), +5 from a level 5 spell (Baleful Polymorph, anyone?) + 10 = +23


thats the only thing i can agree on, with cloak of resistance being so cheap, then its a chrime not to get one.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 10:56 AM
I did read it. The problem I have with it... is that its not a monk build.

Its a UMD build. And a poor one.

You can take ANY class and just sink ranks in UMD to accomplish the same thing.

allonym
2008-05-17, 11:00 AM
Actually... The average roll on D20 is 10.5. So it isn't even 50%, it's about 47.5%.

Uhm, no. To get a 10 or more on a d20 is in fact 11/20, thus 55%.

ZeroNumerous
2008-05-17, 11:01 AM
In honor of all things Giacomo, I'm going to play a courier-monk.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 11:14 AM
Real Men Don't Need Wands

It took me only a few minutes to come up with a counter-build.

Omocaig, human Ranger 1 / Barbarian 9

Stats: S14 D16 C12, I10 W14 X8, level boosts go to strength.
Feats: Improved initiative (1), Iron will (1), Power attack (3), two spare feats (6, 9)

{table]Lev|HP|AC|Fort|Ref|Will|Att|Items
1|9*|16|3*|5|2|3|studded leather
2|15|18|5|5*|2|4|breastplate
3|22|18|6|5*|4|5
4|28|19|6|6|5|6|cloak +1, armor +1
5|35|21|8|7*|6|8|ring +1, amulet +1, weapon +1
6|41|21|8|7|6|9
7|48|22|9|8|7|11|cloak +2, armor +2, ogre gauntlets
8|54|22|10|9|8|13
9|61|24|11|9|8|14|cloak +3, armor +3, ring +2
10|67|25|12|11|10|15|amulet +2, 11000 gp remaining
[/table]

If my math is correct, then at every point, this rangarian has (1) more HP, (2) better AC, (3) higher fortitude and reflex saves, (4) higher attack bonus, and (5) more damage per hit than the Joke, except for the few spots marked *, where they are tied. His will save is on average one point behind. I didn't bother doing the math up to level 20, since most campaigns never reach level 20 anyway.

And that's before raging. When in rage, his attack and fort save go through the roof, his will save exceeds the Joke's, and his armor class is still better. By level 5, he's a better grappler while raging; by level 8, he's a better grappler even when not raging.

Mind you, this is not particularly optimized; I'm sure some of the other forum regulars could improve this build even without leaving core. Nevertheless, it shows once again that the Gonk build is made of FAIL.

Solo
2008-05-17, 11:20 AM
well the most succesfull classes are either casters, or using casterlike mechanics, so how can it be a surprise that other classes tries to emulate some of those points?

Monks aren't casters, for starters, nor are they meant to emulate casters via UMD as evidenced by their lack of UMD as a class skill?

If you want to UMD your way to victory, why not just play a class that has UMD as a class skill?



you can make a effective monk with 1 good stat, and moderate other stats.
if you adhere to Khaines school of monks you focus on str, and dump int&char.
We're talking about the Giacomo school of monks here, though. Your own school of monk building deserves it's own thread.



i disagree about that table, if your monk is proberly build, then you can grapple/trip a lot of the solomonsters you face, and most of those that attacks in groups.
this is especaly true if you are also fighting humanoids or things with class levels.
Ah, but we are talking about the Giamonk here, you know, the Joker build he posted? Again, your own monk build, your own thread for independent discussion. We gotta keep focused on Giacomo here. It's his thread, after all.




when you sit down and actively try and find monsters to support your theori of monks not being able to grapple effectively, then of course you will find them.
if you wantet to actualy make a usefull contribution to this thread, then you should have includet all the CR 9-10 monsters, instead of just those that support your konklussion.
First off, get some form of spellcheck. Seriously.

Second, I googled CR 10 monsters on the SRD google, and pretty much everything I came up with that was CR10 would be a challenge for the Giamonk. Granted, I stopped looking after 2-3 pages, so maybe all the weenie grapplers were hiding in the back. Would you care to do a more thorough analysis in order to refute me?



also, 2 of the monsters on your list would be beaten in a grapple by one of my monks.
The two monsters are beaten by the Enlarged Giamonk. And the Enlarged Giamonk would in turn be beaten by the Enlarged version of those 2 creatures.

In conclusion, solo win.

Vortling
2008-05-17, 11:20 AM
I'm pleased that Giacamo's monk build has moved out of the Schroedinger territory. Is someone going to make a UMD focused rogue to compare to this UMD focused monk? Do remember to use the same item buying rules Gia has used.

Gorbash
2008-05-17, 11:21 AM
Uhm, no. To get a 10 or more on a d20 is in fact 11/20, thus 55%.

Sorry, I thought you said he needed to roll 11 or more. My mistake. :smallwink:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 11:21 AM
As for UMD...

My level Five Spellthief has a +19 UMD relating to scrolls.

8 [ranks] + 2 [Charisma] + 5 [Spellsight Goggles] + 2 [Synergy from Spellcraft] + 2 [Synergy from Decipher Script] = +19

I have the same chance to cast a level 9 scroll as you do... (sure, I don't have the Int/Wis to do it yet... but I can emulate a stat the same as you).

(My Spellthief (http://coyotecode.net/profiler/view.php?id=3785))

Solo
2008-05-17, 11:24 AM
Real Men Don't Need Wands

It took me only a few minutes to come up with a counter-build.

Omocaig, human Ranger 1 / Barbarian 9

Stats: S14 D16 C12, I10 W14 X8, level boosts go to strength.
Feats: Improved initiative (1), Iron will (1), Power attack (3), two spare feats (6, 9)


If you wanted higher will saves, yo could go Endurance+Steadfast Determination



Mind you, this is not particularly optimized; I'm sure some of the other forum regulars could improve this build even without leaving core. Nevertheless, it shows once again that the Gonk build is made of FAIL.
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/6/6c/Epic_fail_guy.gif/180px-Epic_fail_guy.gif

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 11:25 AM
Nah, I wanna crush 'im good.

I present.....

Indiana Jones, Factotum extraordinaire!

Build: Every feat: Font of Inspiration, except possibly the level 6 one for Leadership for a samurai cohort.

Stats: Int maxed, don't care about the rest, though STR and CON would be neat. CHA could be maxed for UMD.

Put points into UMD.

Prepare the spells you need for buffin' up.

Buff with wands to get the spells you don't have.

Enter battle.

Use IP to kick the crap of anything. Not much UMD needed.

Use this theme. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1c05_yXmaI)

See? Better than him. With a single feat for improved unarmed strike, the Indy is a better monk AND a better caster.

Bleen
2008-05-17, 11:28 AM
Needs more FF1 Monk with Epic Fail Guy mask shopped onto him.

Does this build also use the mythical "Wands that are halfway charged thus they are cheaper and this totally makes sense by RAW" technique? I was too lazy to check, but someone said something about "item buying rules he used".

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-05-17, 11:28 AM
Level 11:

A key thing, though, is that now AMF is available – the great caster bane (for 1,650 per use). You can cast it from a scroll at currently +18 UMD, meaning to hit DC 31 required in combat you have a 40% chance. Well, Giacomo, you may say – this is not yet a reliable tactics when fighting casters, so you can only use it with some further boosts at 100% success in lvls 19 or 20? NOT SO FAST MY FRIENDS...
Here is the kicker:
Among 6th level spells, there is also the possibility to turn your monk staff into a “spellstaff” from the druid list. You can store an AMF into it between your adventuring times without any problem (just repeat UMD until it works). Congratulations. You can now cast AMF once/day.
Well, to be honest...the wording of the spellstaff spell shows it was never intended to be used by a non-caster, so check with your DM whether he allows it. But the wording in RAW is quite clear imo. If spellcasters can get around buying a permanent item with a 1/day spell use, why not a non-spellcaster? Would not make sense to me.
Note, though, that it costs you 3,300 gp still and can be dispelled any time. On the flipside, you can actually store ANY spell into that staff, also at high-level play things like time stop, plus you can also use rods of metagmagic to, say, quicken any spell...divine power anyone?...


(About the spellstaff)
I'm reading through you build right now and this is the first part that, as I see it, is 100% wrong. to explain this I shall quote the spell description first.


You store one spell that you can normally cast in a wooden quarterstaff. Only one such spell can be stored in a staff at a given time, and you cannot have more than one spellstaff at any given time. You can cast a spell stored within a staff just as though it were among those you had prepared, but it does not count against your normal allotment for a given day. You use up any applicable material components required to cast the spell when you store it in the spellstaff.
emphases mine.

As you can see, you have to be able to cast spells normally, since the monk can't it would be useless to have this on scroll for UMD. This isn't that much of a problem though, just let your druid friend cast it onj your staff, except the druid doesn't have AMF nor divine power on it's spell list. It can still work though, you just need to convince a friendly caster with AMF to UMD the spell for you and even then it's still debatable whether it works.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 11:30 AM
Needs more FF1 Monk with Epic Fail Guy mask shopped onto him.

Does this build also use the mythical "Wands that are halfway charged thus they are cheaper and this totally makes sense by RAW" technique? I was too lazy to check, but someone said something about "item buying rules he used".

Yeah, it does.

Also, we also need to use THE classic "NEEDS MOAR!". You know which.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-17, 11:33 AM
He could go Rogue than become Monk from there.

According to page 59 of PHB, class skills stay class skills for all new classes.
Meaning UMD would stay a class skill for Monk and thushe would havea reasonable chance to use magic devices. "If a skill is a class skill for any of her character's classes, then character level determines a skill's maximum rank".
However, it still would have old issue of costing double.

Example.

A Rogue1/Monk1 can have a rank of 5 in UMD but it will cost him 6 skill points.
4 at 1st (due to being as Rogue skill) and 2 at 2nd (because not a Monk skill).

A Rogue/Monk fits Joker really well: he fights unarmed sometimes and unarmored. And he is rather rogue-like.

Theodoxus
2008-05-17, 11:40 AM
Yeah... I liked the monk back in core only -but now, it's silly to not take the concept of the monk and build it better using different classes...

Caster killer? Hexblade 4/Rogue 4 (fighter feat varient)/anything else X

Shoot, you could use this for a better UMD build than the Giamonk - start with a dwarf, boost Cha, specialize in whatever fighting style you want, max out UMD, and get insane save bonuses vs spells and SLAs... mettle and evasion, yes please. Only drawback is lack of movement - but being ranged could help agains that - or use wands/staves/scrolls whatever to blast the magician. meh.

Although, I suppose, for a lot of xp penalty (do people actually play that way?) you could go dwarf hexblade 4/monk 16. Same problem with UMD as Giamonk, though you have the triggers for the hexblade list (isn't there a feat that lets you take cross class as class skills?) But that would solve the movement problem, boost AC, grant even better base saves and grant some nice toys...

Not that I could play it currently, my DM has outlawed Monk, Druid and Spiked Chains :smallannoyed: Something about abusive, overpowered and reality bending cheese, respectively. again, I say meh.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 11:44 AM
{table]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feat | UMD | Class Ability
1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | Skill Focus [UMD], Improved Unarmed | +7 |SA +1d6, Trapfinding
2 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 0 | | +8 (+10 w/ scrolls) | Evasion
3 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | Weapon Finesse| +9 (+11 w/ scrolls) | SA +2d6, TS +1
4 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | | +10 (+12 w/ scrolls) |Uncanny Dodge
5 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 1 | | +11 (+13 w/ scrolls) | SA +3d6
6 | 4 | 2 | 5 | 2 | Superior Unarmed Strike | +12 (+14 w/ scrolls) | TS +2
7 | 5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | | +13 (+17 w/ scrolls) | SA +4d6
8 | 6 | 2 | 6 | 2 | | +14 (+18 w/ scrolls) | Improved Uncanny Dodge
9 | 6 | 3 | 6 | 3 | Snap Kick | +15 (+19 w/ scrolls) | SA +5d6
[/table]

28 Point Buy - STR 12 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 10 CHA 12

Level adjustments to attributes go into Dex

HD 9d6+18 (49.5 average)

Skills: 5 ranks in Decipher script at level 2. 5 ranks in spellcraft at level 7 (bought cross class). Hide, Move Silent, Tumble, Spot, Listen, Jump, Balance, Escape Artist all maxed.

That's not using any items. Unarmed Strikes are 1d8 damage, I can "flurry" using snap kick.

That's my "monk".

Xefas
2008-05-17, 11:50 AM
I'm a little confused. Don't Monks get 6 maneuvers known at first level? I'm not seeing any at all. I would expect a little Diamond Mind in any mage-killer setup.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 11:55 AM
Xefas, here's your loli or cookie. Your pick.

Chronos
2008-05-17, 12:34 PM
Am I the only one who noticed that Giacomo's build has no ranks in Balance whatsoever? If I'm not mistaken, that means that a first-level wizard has a pretty good chance of taking out the 20th-level monk: One Grease spell, and it's all over. Or, if we're talking a higher-level wizard who wants to get fancy about it, Incendiary Slime or Freezing Fog, or quicken that Grease (it's a first-level spell; you can afford to quicken it even without metamagic cost reducers). Or for that matter, if you don't like magic, you could just have a first level commoner, with a bag of marbles.

Sheesh, access to Balance and other such skills is one of the monk's few advantages, and Giacomo doesn't even invest anything in it? That should be enough to dispel the myth that this guy is a monk.

Worira
2008-05-17, 12:38 PM
Wait, MW sense motive item? What exactly is that? Note that an alchemist's lab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#alchemistsLab) costs 500 gp and weighs 40 pounds, so don't claim you can make a MW tool for any skill.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 12:40 PM
Wait, MW sense motive item? What exactly is that? Note that an alchemist's lab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#alchemistsLab) costs 500 gp and weighs 40 pounds, so don't claim you can make a MW tool for any skill.

Primitive polygraph? :smallbiggrin:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 12:44 PM
Am I the only one who noticed that Giacomo's build has no ranks in Balance whatsoever? If I'm not mistaken, that means that a first-level wizard has a pretty good chance of taking out the 20th-level monk: One Grease spell, and it's all over. Or, if we're talking a higher-level wizard who wants to get fancy about it, Incendiary Slime or Freezing Fog, or quicken that Grease (it's a first-level spell; you can afford to quicken it even without metamagic cost reducers). Or for that matter, if you don't like magic, you could just have a first level commoner, with a bag of marbles.

Sheesh, access to Balance and other such skills is one of the monk's few advantages, and Giacomo doesn't even invest anything in it? That should be enough to dispel the myth that this guy is a monk.

You forget the Giacomonk's train of cheerleading fangirl psion groupies who cast psychic reformation for him. He has leadership, y'know.

TempusCCK
2008-05-17, 01:02 PM
Mmm, I would like to interject, without reading all three pages of material, that the WBL Guidelines, are just that, guidelines, in actual play, the amount of money spent on items is completely inconsequential, all a character has to do is say "Man, i need some cash for my sweet items, Hey Mr. Dungeon Master, I wanna start looking around for a quest that'll bring me in sum phat lewtz."

Sure, its' DM approval, but it's no different from us assuming that the Wizard has every spell in existence available to him by 20th level. That's a massive amount of time and energy to find the spells, assuming they exist, and scribing them, which costs some moeny, excluding a BBB.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the monk build here, because if the Monk can do it, so can the Wizard, and the Wizard has many easier ways to make it work, hell, teleport alone opens up option considerably.

Just saying, lay off the monk because it exceeds WBL, who cares, it's nothing that really effects the game in any real sense anyway. D&D isn't played in a vaccuum, the DM is there for a reason.

Morty
2008-05-17, 01:09 PM
Mmm, I would like to interject, without reading all three pages of material, that the WBL Guidelines, are just that, guidelines, in actual play, the amount of money spent on items is completely inconsequential, all a character has to do is say "Man, i need some cash for my sweet items, Hey Mr. Dungeon Master, I wanna start looking around for a quest that'll bring me in sum phat lewtz."

Sure, its' DM approval, but it's no different from us assuming that the Wizard has every spell in existence available to him by 20th level. That's a massive amount of time and energy to find the spells, assuming they exist, and scribing them, which costs some moeny, excluding a BBB.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the monk build here, because if the Monk can do it, so can the Wizard, and the Wizard has many easier ways to make it work, hell, teleport alone opens up option considerably.

Just saying, lay off the monk because it exceeds WBL, who cares, it's nothing that really effects the game in any real sense anyway. D&D isn't played in a vaccuum, the DM is there for a reason.

Yes, but there's about equal chance that DM will be stingy about treasure and/or will prefer to give PCs items rather than gold they can spend in Ye Olde Magick Shoppe. So it's safer to just use WBL in theoretical optimization.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:19 PM
Well guys,

with all that evidence piled up in front of you, you still doubt? Hmmm...might get to be a long thread. But thanks to Lord_khaine and to some of the more neutral/mind-not-made-up-yet posters. Ah, what the heck - thanks to you all for your feedback. I'll see what I can do to provide both entertaining and elucidating answers. :smallcool:

In this post, I'll try to respond to the questions raised up to this point, although not all at a time. I'll edit it continuously to one by one comment on your comments.

First, because it showcases so well how some - despite the lengthy, detailed guide above - apparently do not get what it's all about.


Real Men Don't Need Wands

It took me only a few minutes to come up with a counter-build.

Omocaig, human Ranger 1 / Barbarian 9

Stats: S14 D16 C12, I10 W14 X8, level boosts go to strength.
Feats: Improved initiative (1), Iron will (1), Power attack (3), two spare feats (6, 9)

{table]Lev|HP|AC|Fort|Ref|Will|Att|Items
1|9*|16|3*|5|2|3|studded leather
2|15|18|5|5*|2|4|breastplate
3|22|18|6|5*|4|5
4|28|19|6|6|5|6|cloak +1, armor +1
5|35|21|8|7*|6|8|ring +1, amulet +1, weapon +1
6|41|21|8|7|6|9
7|48|22|9|8|7|11|cloak +2, armor +2, ogre gauntlets
8|54|22|10|9|8|13
9|61|24|11|9|8|14|cloak +3, armor +3, ring +2
10|67|25|12|11|10|15|amulet +2, 11000 gp remaining
[/table]

If my math is correct, then at every point, this rangarian has (1) more HP, (2) better AC, (3) higher fortitude and reflex saves, (4) higher attack bonus, and (5) more damage per hit than the Joke, except for the few spots marked *, where they are tied. His will save is on average one point behind. I didn't bother doing the math up to level 20, since most campaigns never reach level 20 anyway.

And that's before raging. When in rage, his attack and fort save go through the roof, his will save exceeds the Joke's, and his armor class is still better. By level 5, he's a better grappler while raging; by level 8, he's a better grappler even when not raging.

Mind you, this is not particularly optimized; I'm sure some of the other forum regulars could improve this build even without leaving core. Nevertheless, it shows once again that the Gonk build is made of FAIL.

Well, Kurald Galain, the joke is all yours - but not in the way you wish it to be. First of all, I tried a full class build in core to show that a monk is a solid, useful class with unique tactics and abilities. So it makes hardly sense to compare a multiclass build to that.
And even so, your build will not beat the Joker (neither does your Samurai btw, but you probably meant that as a joke) - not because the monk class is so strong, but because your build is simply not optimised enough for the discussion we are probably going to lead here.
You may have noticed the sections where I outlined the grappling tactics. Assuming your two spare feats go to improved grapple, maybe in level 9 (where you get the improved grapple) you get near to the Joker's level in the grapple check ALONE.
Unfortunately, thanks to his UMD tactics that you so much try to ridicule, he still outgrapples you at that level (+18 vs your +19, but he'll have more grapple attempts and more grappling damage). Your higher AC is as useless in that situation as is your power attack.
This situation btw assumes you have your rage up. This is where the higher move of the monk and his ability to hide (whereas your barbarian does not have spot as class ability and thus is behind in opposed checks) comes in so handy. He can simply wait out your rage. Then you are fatigued - and guess who'll be ahead then in grapple?
Well, you might say, then I'll simply charge the Joker with a greatsword and power attack! Again, you disregard the monk's class ability. Thanks to his combat reflexes, he'll grapple you before you even reach him. And while his attack bonus (as you rightfully point out) is lower, he only needs to hit the touch AC, making your expensive armour useless.

What you fail to grasp here, Kurald Galain, is to simply pile up some numbers and believe that this is all what combat strategy is about. There is much more...

*********

Now on to the other posters:

1) Please do not list non-core base classes as comparison. This hardly helps, although my big suspicion is that once I have a look at the fabled factotum class, all of Azerion Kelimon's notions of uberness will be easily disproven. And I am almost certain that a factotum will not outgrapple a monk, not even a core one.

2) The example Joker can use his wands with 100% certainty already at level 15, not 20. And he can - if boosting beforehand with heroism and eagle's splendour (similar wands, usable out of combat) - use wands with 100% certainty already at level 9 in case he likes to.
Now, in lower levels, please read again what I wrote about how to use wands. The trick is to avoid casting it close to combat whenever possible. Longer-lasting stuff (10mins/lvl), touch spells (hold the charge, you hardly cast often) and heal spells are among those.
As for enlarge - well, that 1-2 rounds of buff should be available in many situations, in particular since the monk is such a good scout and has better encounter control this way than most other classes (and better than many creatures or opponents).

3) @Telonius: for the spells I listed, the Joker will never have to emulate an ability score, since WIS is all he needs. AMF and even Time Stop are all also divine spells.

4) @Vortling: A rogue can use UMD much better, but he makes less use out of grappling tactics (including enlarge) than a monk. Similarly, divine power is not quite as good for him, since STR synergises less with most rogues' DEX-heavy builds. Otherwise - yes, a rogue should definitely make use of UMD to get it for wand activation at the crucial +19 level by around level 7 (most rogues will also have higher CHR).
Similarly, @Theodoxus: Of course, CHR-heavy classes which have UMD even as class skill can use that skill MORE easily than the monk. This does not mean that a monk should not use it - there are simply spells out there that synergise best with him.
Plus, having a high UMD score at a certain point is no longer necessary. For the key cheap wand level 1-4 access all you need is the +19 level.

5) to all: This monk is not meant to illustrate that a monk is STRONGER than all classes. Only that he keeps up with them and CAN contribute in various roles and niches.
An added bonus is that one of the Joker's niches is to make life horrible for spellcasters.

6) @Fenix_of_Doom: yes, I admit the Spellstaff idea is tricky. What does "normally" cast mean? As a DM, though, I'd admit that I would also lean towards interpreting as "normally" as opposed to "cast from scrolls, wands etc.". Still, I think the idea would be very nice :smallsmile: It probably depends on the power level of the campaign.

7) As for the masterwork items - the PHB assumes there is one for every skill (PHB 131-133, it also costs only 50gp, not 100). This is what I'd think the joker monk wears in terms of masterwork items:
Move Silently: Foot clothing worn underneath boots.
Hide: Dark clothes
Spot: Glasses worn over goggles
Listen: Devices on ears making them more sensitive to acoustics (could be also a kind of leather cap, combined with the glasses - like a fantasy pilot cap :smallsmile:
UMD: Special wires worn around your forearms, wrists and underneath your gloves. These wires in that campaign world make you more attuned with magic.
Spellcraft: Similar wires of different material - or some kind of runic notes of major spell classe written on forearm bracers.
Diplomacy: manly perfume
Sense Motive: ah, difficult one. Possibly some rare animal skin that is sensitive to changed body warmth of lying opponent.
Jump: sport bandages around legs.
Tumble: sport bandages around arms.
Knowledge- Arcane: as per Spellcraft or UMD
Perform- Jokes: there were good suggestions made avove :smallbiggrin:


8)- x. Will be updated as I catch up with the thread up to this point.

Now, for a grand finale...Solo.:smallbiggrin:

Ach, Solo. I must admit that I am a bit disappointed by your posts. It somehow tells me you have not read the guide intently enough - but I'll wait a bit until you have done so.

In the meantime, let me assist lord_khaine in also commenting on your post:



Monks aren't casters, for starters, nor are they meant to emulate casters via UMD as evidenced by their lack of UMD as a class skill?

Of course monks are not casters! What an insult to the Joker to believe he is Batman? :smallsmile:
Seriously. You do not seem to understand that spellcasting is a subgroup of that particular thing in DD 3.5 called magic.
Magic is available to all. It's not a monopoly of casters. Even Kurald Galain's rangarian uses magic (although in a not that optimised way).
So where is the problem?
I hardly see anyone ridiculing a Cleric using divine power to emulate a fighter (although he fails at it btw). Or a wizard using invisibility and flying to be a scout (although not that optimised, either imo)


If you want to UMD your way to victory, why not just play a class that has UMD as a class skill?

As for other classes being better at UMD, see above.


We're talking about the Giacomo school of monks here, though. Your own school of monk building deserves it's own thread.

Actually, it does! :smallsmile: Truth to tell, some of the Joker's fu is due to what he learned at Master lord_khaine's monastery: that is, that grappling is a great tactics. Earlier joker versions would have rather walked the path of finesse.


Ah, but we are talking about the Giamonk here, you know, the Joker build he posted? Again, your own monk build, your own thread for independent discussion. We gotta keep focused on Giacomo here. It's his thread, after all.

Well, since it's a monk's guide thread, lord_khaine is more than welcome to add variant ideas.


First off, get some form of spellcheck. Seriously.

Not that necessary imo - his posts are interesting enough to stomach a couple of typos.


Second, I googled CR 10 monsters on the SRD google, and pretty much everything I came up with that was CR10 would be a challenge for the Giamonk. Granted, I stopped looking after 2-3 pages, so maybe all the weenie grapplers were hiding in the back. Would you care to do a more thorough analysis in order to refute me?
The two monsters are beaten by the Enlarged Giamonk. And the Enlarged Giamonk would in turn be beaten by the Enlarged version of those 2 creatures.

Solo, I strongly recommend to you the SRD monster filter. here (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/)
You'll then have to simply build ratios of the monsters able to outgrapple the monk to those who can't. You'll be surprised.
And enlarge person only applies to humanoids, not the vast majority of monsters.


In conclusion, solo win.

Nope, though you are free to stay in this belief...Actually I plan to add later a check of your sorcerer spells once proposed in a different thread at the given monk levels to see, if the monk has a good chance. My gut feeling tells me Ozymandias should avoid the Joker :smallbiggrin:

Ah, and one more thing...


I feel the need to point out that in the comics, the joker has consistently failed to beat Batman. Ah, the irony :smallbiggrin:
.

It depends...the joker always DID survive and come back. How alike the monk :smalltongue:
Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Bleen
2008-05-17, 01:23 PM
And even in the mystical nonexistent full 1-to-20 game, WBL isn't a pool of gold you spend on whatever you wish, it's just a guideline for the the collective value of items the DM would throw at you by then, going at 13.3 encounters per level blah blah blah blah blah. If you don't want the crap, sure, you can sell it, but not at full value (unless your DM loves you), but you still won't have a giant mythical pool of GP to cherry-pick whatever magic items you want. And that's if your campaign has Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe or whatever we refer to those as.

So the WBL gauge commonly used in theorycrafting is really quite generous.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 01:27 PM
Well guys,

with all that evidence piled up in front of you, you still doubt? Hmmm...might get to be a long thread. But thanks to Lord_khaine and to some of the more neutral/mind-not-made-up-yet posters. Ah, what the heck - thanks to you all for your feedback. I'll see what I can do to provide both entertaining and elucidating answers. :smallcool:

In this post, I'll try to respond to the questions raised up to this point, although not all at a time. I'll edit it continuously to one by one comment on your comments.

First, because it showcases so well how some - despite the lengthy, detailed guide above - apparently do not get what it's all about.



Well, Kurald Galain, the joke is all yours - but not in the way you wish it to be. First of all, I tried a full class build in core to show that a monk is a solid, useful class with unique tactics and abilities. So it makes hardly sense to compare a multiclass build to that.
And even so, your build will not beat the Joker (neither does your Samurai btw, but you probably meant that as a joke) - not because the monk class is so strong, but because your build is simply not optimised enough for the discussion we are probably going to lead here.
You may have noticed the sections where I outlined the grappling tactics. Assuming your two spare feats go to improved grapple, maybe in level 9 (where you get the improved grapple) you get near to the Joker's level in the grapple check ALONE.
Unfortunately, thanks to his UMD tactics that you so much try to ridicule, he still outgrapples you at that level (+18 vs your +19, but he'll have more grapple attempts and more grappling damage). Your higher AC is as useless in that situation as is your power attack.
This situation btw assumes you have your rage up. This is where the higher move of the monk and his ability to hide (whereas your barbarian does not have spot as class ability and thus is behind in opposed checks) comes in so handy. He can simply wait out your rage. Then you are fatigued - and guess who'll be ahead then in grapple?
Well, you might say, then I'll simply charge the Joker with a greatsword and power attack! Again, you disregard the monk's class ability. Thanks to his combat reflexes, he'll grapple you before you even reach him. And while his attack bonus (as you rightfully point out) is lower, he only needs to hit the touch AC, making your expensive armour useless.

What you fail to grasp here, Kurald Galain, is to simply pile up some numbers and believe that this is all what combat strategy is about. There is much more...

*********

Now on to the other posters:

1) Please do not list non-core base classes as comparison. This hardly helps, although my big suspicion is that once I have a look at the fabled factotum class, all of Azerion Kelimon's notions of uberness will be easily disproven. And I am almost certain that a factotum will not outgrapple a monk, not even a core one.

2) The example Joker can use his wands with 100% certainty already at level 15, not 20. And he can - if boosting beforehand with heroism and eagle's splendour (similar wands, usable out of combat) - use wands with 100% certainty already at level 9 in case he likes to.
Now, in lower levels, please read again what I wrote about how to use wands. The trick is to avoid casting it close to combat whenever possible. Longer-lasting stuff (10mins/lvl), touch spells (hold the charge, you hardly cast often) and heal spells are among those.
As for enlarge - well, that 1-2 rounds of buff should be available in many situations, in particular since the monk is such a good scout and has better encounter control this way than most other classes (and better than many creatures or opponents).

3) @Telonius: for the spells I listed, the Joker will never have to emulate an ability score, since WIS is all he needs. AMF and even Time Stop are all also divine spells.

4) @Vortling: A rogue can use UMD much better, but he makes less use out of grappling tactics (including enlarge) than a monk. Similarly, divine power is not quite as good for him, since STR synergises less with most rogues' DEX-heavy builds. Otherwise - yes, a rogue should definitely make use of UMD to get it for wand activation at the crucial +19 level by around level 7 (most rogues will also have higher CHR).
Similarly, @Theodoxus: Of course, CHR-heavy classes which have UMD even as class skill can use that skill MORE easily than the monk. This does not mean that a monk should not use it - there are simply spells out there that synergise best with him.
Plus, having a high UMD score at a certain point is no longer necessary. For the key cheap wand level 1-4 access all you need is the +19 level.

5) to all: This monk is not meant to illustrate that a monk is STRONGER than all classes. Only that he keeps up with them and CAN contribute in various roles and niches.
An added bonus is that one of the Joker's niches is to make life horrible for spellcasters.

6) @Fenix_of_Doom: yes, I admit the Spellstaff idea is tricky. What does "normally" cast mean? As a DM, though, I'd admit that I would also lean towards interpreting as "normally" as opposed to "cast from scrolls, wands etc.". Still, I think the idea would be very nice :smallsmile: It probably depends on the power level of the campaign.

7) As for the masterwork items - the PHB assumes there is one for every skill (PHB 131-133, it also costs only 50gp, not 100). This is what I'd think the joker monk wears in terms of masterwork items:
Move Silently: Foot clothing worn underneath boots.
Hide: Dark clothes
Spot: Glasses worn over goggles
Listen: Devices on ears making them more sensitive to acoustics (could be also a kind of leather cap, combined with the glasses - like a fantasy pilot cap :smallsmile:
UMD: Special wires worn around your forearms, wrists and underneath your gloves. These wires in that campaign world make you more attuned with magic.
Spellcraft: Similar wires of different material - or some kind of runic notes of major spell classe written on forearm bracers.
Diplomacy: manly perfume
Sense Motive: ah, difficult one. Possibly some rare animal skin that is sensitive to changed body warmth of lying opponent.
Jump: sport bandages around legs.
Tumble: sport bandages around arms.
Knowledge- Arcane: as per Spellcraft or UMD
Perform- Jokes: there were good suggestions made avove :smallbiggrin:


8)- x. Will be updated as I catch up with the thread up to this point.

Now, for a grand finale...Solo.:smallbiggrin:

Ach, Solo. I must admit that I am a bit disappointed by your posts. It somehow tells me you have not read the guide intently enough - but I'll wait a bit until you have done so.

In the meantime, let me assist lord_khaine in also commenting on your post:




Of course monks are not casters! What an insult to the Joker to believe he is Batman? :smallsmile:
Seriously. You do not seem to understand that spellcasting is a subgroup of that particular thing in DD 3.5 called magic.
Magic is available to all. It's not a monopoly of casters. Even Kurald Galain's rangarian uses magic (although in a not that optimised way).
So where is the problem?
I hardly see anyone ridiculing a Cleric using divine power to emulate a fighter (although he fails at it btw). Or a wizard using invisibility and flying to be a scout (although not that optimised, either imo)



As for other classes being better at UMD, see above.



Actually, it does! :smallsmile: Truth to tell, some of the Joker's fu is due to what he learned at Master lord_khaine's monastery: that is, that grappling is a great tactics. Earlier joker versions would have rather walked the path of finesse.



Well, since it's a monk's guide thread, lord_khaine is more than welcome to add variant ideas.



Not that necessary imo - his posts are interesting enough to stomach a couple of typos.



Solo, I strongly recommend to you the SRD monster filter. here (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/)
You'll then have to simply build ratios of the monsters able to outgrapple the monk to those who can't. You'll be surprised.
And enlarge person only applies to humanoids, not the vast majority of monsters.



Nope, though you are free to stay in this belief...Actually I plan to add later a check of your sorcerer spells once proposed in a different thread at the given monk levels to see, if the monk has a good chance. My gut feeling tells me Ozymandias should avoid the Joker :smallbiggrin:

Ah, and one more thing...



It depends...the joker always DID survive and come back. How alike the monk :smalltongue:
Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

And well done, sir. You olympically skirted the fact Indiana Jones is doing everything your so called Joker can, and better.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:28 PM
And even in the mystical nonexistent full 1-to-20 game, WBL isn't a pool of gold you spend on whatever you wish, it's just a guideline for the the collective value of items the DM would throw at you by then, going at 13.3 encounters per level blah blah blah blah blah. If you don't want the crap, sure, you can sell it, but not at full value (unless your DM loves you), but you still won't have a giant mythical pool of GP to cherry-pick whatever magic items you want. And that's if your campaign has Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe or whatever we refer to those as.

So the WBL gauge commonly used in theorycrafting is really quite generous.

Completely agree with you. However, for purposes of comparing builds we need to resort to what the game assumes the characters have, not magic-poor campaigns, or campaigns where players cannot buy items.
And the wbl is exactly that. If you sell the loot and you only receive half of its value in terms of magic items, than the latter thing (WEALTH by level, not USELESS JUNK by level) is what counts.

- Giacomo

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 01:28 PM
Awesome, I got ignored... especially since I made a better giamonk using rogue.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:29 PM
And well done, sir. You olympically skirted the fact Indiana Jones is doing everything your so called Joker can, and better.

And you skirted the fact that the guide is core only, while your factotum Indiane Jones is not (and I still doubt that your factotum build will be that great, though you are free to start a thread on that).

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 01:31 PM
Indy IS core only, in fact. Just add Dungeonscape and FoI and he can do everything you do better, because of Cunning X.

Really. It IS that good, and the other people here will help me show why.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:31 PM
Awesome, I got ignored... especially since I made a better giamonk using rogue.

Sorry! I actually thought you posted your rogue build using non-core feats as some suggestions what can be done to emulate some monk abiliies.
You do realise that without monk abilities and mediocre unarmed damage, all the UMD of the world will not help you overcome this problem?

- Giaocmo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:32 PM
You forget the Giacomonk's train of cheerleading fangirl psion groupies who cast psychic reformation for him. He has leadership, y'know.

Please, if you try being funny at least try so without deliberately misinterpreting me (or actually reading what I posted). The Joker monk does not have leadership.

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 01:32 PM
Sneak attack and Cunning X solve that. See, many d6's of damage and INT to AB, AC, and damage is more than enough to kick the ass of your joker, blindfolded, and not exactly with a blindfold of true darkness.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-17, 01:33 PM
And even in the mystical nonexistent full 1-to-20 game,
*Raises hand.* Done it. Twice, working on a third now.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:33 PM
Sneak attack and Cunning X solve that. See, many d6's of damage and INT to AB, AC, and damage is more than enough to kick the ass of your joker, blindfolded, and not exactly with a blindfold of true darkness.

Build please. In a different thread, though (because it's a factotum, not a core class, and definitely will not emulate a monk by using sneak attack).

- Giaocomo

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 01:34 PM
(Note: I'm looking at your level 9 vs my level 9... and please note that I have not spent any of my wealth)

I'm only 1d8 behind you on damage... your 2d8 damage only offers an average of 4.5 damage more, which is more than made up by my 5d6 sneak attack. Also, I can use +1 Corrosive Gauntlets to bring my damage up to 1d8+1d6+2

You can grapple all you want, my escape artist will beat it. (12 ranks, 3 dex, 6 vest of escape... +21 without much optimizing)

For every buff you cast, that's a round that I can buff as well.

It doesnt prove that you made the monk viable, it only proves that you've abused UMD (which is far too easy to do)

I do like that you're so dedicated and passionate about this, and that you defend it... but I can honestly say that you're fighting a very uphill battle.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 01:36 PM
Build please. In a different thread, though (because it's a factotum, not a core class, and definitely will not emulate a monk by using sneak attack).

- Giaocomo

*Laugh*

BUILD? FoI, FoI, More FoI, and Improved Unarmed strike. Max Int, put remaining points to STR. I'm going to go first, I'm going to dodge your attacks, and I'm going to do an asskicking amount of damage. And I have minor spellcasting, too. Without UMD.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 01:37 PM
Please, if you try being funny at least try so without deliberately misinterpreting me (or actually reading what I posted). The Joker monk does not have leadership.

- Giacomo

I found it hi-lol-rious. Also, while this iteration may not have leadership, without your 'so not RAW or RAI it's no longer funny' mono-charged wands, how are you getting Divine Power?

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:41 PM
Am I the only one who noticed that Giacomo's build has no ranks in Balance whatsoever? If I'm not mistaken, that means that a first-level wizard has a pretty good chance of taking out the 20th-level monk: One Grease spell, and it's all over. Or, if we're talking a higher-level wizard who wants to get fancy about it, Incendiary Slime or Freezing Fog, or quicken that Grease (it's a first-level spell; you can afford to quicken it even without metamagic cost reducers). Or for that matter, if you don't like magic, you could just have a first level commoner, with a bag of marbles.

Sheesh, access to Balance and other such skills is one of the monk's few advantages, and Giacomo doesn't even invest anything in it? That should be enough to dispel the myth that this guy is a monk.

Grease? Are you joking?
First of all, grease necessitates a Reflex save. Why casting a save-spell that if successful only means someone falls down? Try a charm person instead.
Then, the monk's reflex save is good enough to have a good chance at passing the save.
Then, the Joker with a 50gp Masterwork item has a +6 balance skill, meaning he can easily make that DC 10 check most of the time,
Then, he can simply make a 5ft step out of the 10ft square area (full-round action).

And grease vs a level 20 dimdooring, etheral, flying, teleporting joker monk. Yeah, that's going to get you somewhere...

- Giacomo

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 01:44 PM
Wrong, Gia - read Grease again.


A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).

That's two opportunities to fall.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 01:45 PM
Well guys,

with all that evidence piled up in front of you, you still doubt?

I think I can speak for Solo, Azerion, Sam, Illiterate and probably a bunch of others when I say that there is no doubt whatsoever on our side.

Anyway, you completely missed the point of my post. It's not about PVP, it's about contributing more. Without even trying hard, I created a basic core character that has every vital statistic higher than your highly unorthodox, dubiously legal, overly complex monk build. It's all about viability, and the gonk fails at that.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 01:46 PM
Grease? Are you joking?
First of all, grease necessitates a Reflex save. Why casting a save-spell that if successful only means someone falls down? Try a charm person instead.
Then, the monk's reflex save is good enough to have a good chance at passing the save.
Then, the Joker with a 50gp Masterwork item has a +6 balance skill, meaning he can easily make that DC 10 check most of the time,
Then, he can simply make a 5ft step out of the 10ft square area (full-round action).

And grease vs a level 20 dimdooring, etheral, flying, teleporting joker monk. Yeah, that's going to get you somewhere...

- Giacomo

Without five ranks in balance, and notice it is RANKS, you are caught flatfooted by balancing. A rogue then shreds you with SA. See? Brought down by grease.

And if you want me to show you how this works, we can set up a fight in Alpha in PbP. You set the rules.

Bleen
2008-05-17, 01:48 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't see any actual "monk" abilities in here. I see UMD and Grapple, which other classes can do well. And Grapple is seldom a reliable option in a real campaign, given how many monsters of the Monk's level could easily beat him in a grapple.

"You multiclassed" does not ever invalidate an optimization build, because dipping in and out for various features is part of optimizing. If your monk could have dipped a few levels of something to be better, then he should have, as long as the monk still has mostly-monk levels and features.

And again, he isn't really using any of his monk features. Just UMD and Grapple. He isn't "filling a niche", he's "doing what a number of other classes can do, but worse."

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 01:51 PM
You do realise that without monk abilities and mediocre unarmed damage, all the UMD of the world will not help you overcome this problem?
Sure it will. Has it occured to you that, if you have the power of UMD at your disposal, hitting people with your bare hands might not be all that great a strategy?


The Joker monk does not have leadership.
Well, that's too bad, because the easiest way to make it a viable character would be to give it a wizard cohort. But I see you're already starting with insults and ad hominems in your second round of posting... so I suppose this thread will quickly become as locked as the last five or six monk threads.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:51 PM
(Note: I'm looking at your level 9 vs my level 9... and please note that I have not spent any of my wealth)

Let us see how long you get by without spending anything :smallsmile:


I'm only 1d8 behind you on damage... your 2d8 damage only offers an average of 4.5 damage more,

...no, actually it's 9 more damage...


which is more than made up by my 5d6 sneak attack.

...which is highly situational and will not apply in open combat you suggest. If you manage to beat the Joker'S spot check or initiative you MAY get in ONE sneak attack....


Also, I can use +1 Corrosive Gauntlets to bring my damage up to 1d8+1d6+2

...and I could use belt of battle to kick you to kingdom come. Non-core items are not getting you anywhere here...


You can grapple all you want, my escape artist will beat it. (12 ranks, 3 dex, 6 vest of escape... +21 without much optimizing)

No, escape artist will not help you, with as many optimisation as you like. You need a standard action for that, and moving away triggers AoOs from the Joker, who simply grapples you again. Then he fllurry-grapples on his turn.


For every buff you cast, that's a round that I can buff as well.

Yes, feel free to do so. But I'd recommend buffs that make the rogue good at his rogue stuff, and not at what the monk does best.


It doesnt prove that you made the monk viable, it only proves that you've abused UMD (which is far too easy to do)

Yes, I hear that all the time. I used polymorph, leadership, diplomacy, the eversmoking bottle/blind-fight, UMD, AMF, Silence, Divine Power, spellstaff and masterwork items and all the time I get to hear is "naw, this does not show monks are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.." Very tiring.


I do like that you're so dedicated and passionate about this, and that you defend it... but I can honestly say that you're fighting a very uphill battle.

Yes, and it is because of posts like yours. Seriously: you provide a non-core rogue build with no apparently no idea what a monk can do best, unparalelled to illustrate that the monk sucks? Why is it so difficult to see what can be got out of that class and be happy about it?

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 01:53 PM
So, no answers for me. Ready to back up your build against Indy Jones in a series of regulated matches? You even get to set the rules.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-17, 01:53 PM
Without five ranks in balance, and notice it is RANKS, you are caught flatfooted by balancing. A rogue then shreds you with SA. See? Brought down by grease.

Er...so the Joker is now fighting two opponents at the same time?


And if you want me to show you how this works, we can set up a fight in Alpha in PbP. You set the rules.

Hmmm...tempting. At the moment, my real life working schedule will not allow it, but I'll get back to that (after I also have a look at the factotum description).

- Giacomo

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 01:54 PM
Okay.

Then, you cannot defend monks until we have our match. Until cold, hard evidence is provided, all of this argument is moot. For both sides. Which means, we don't mess with you, you do not defend monks.

Vortling
2008-05-17, 01:56 PM
Yes, I hear that all the time. I used polymorph, leadership, diplomacy, the eversmoking bottle/blind-fight, UMD, AMF, Silence, Divine Power, spellstaff and masterwork items and all the time I get to hear is "naw, this does not show monks are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.." Very tiring.


So build us a monk that doesn't use any of them and works well. That should shut everyone up real quick. :smallbiggrin:

High level question for you Gia. What is this monk supposed to do to contribute? What is his role in the party? Is it damage dealer? Is it scout? Is it meat shield? You seem to be focusing on shutting down casters, but isn't that as situational, if not moreso, than the rogue's sneak attack? Since you don't think he's a 5th party member, which of the 4 classic classes (Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue) is he replacing?

When you've addressed that then I think we can get to the heart of the matter.

TempusCCK
2008-05-17, 01:58 PM
Eh, he made a core-only monk build, it's common knowledge that the power creep skyrockets as you throw in more and more stuff.

This needs to be core-only until Giacomo can make a non-core build to match, that's the only way to keep this fair. Just someone make up a core-only batman to face him,and you can finally see once and for all what's going on.

I still think Batman will waste him, but eh, at least it would be an even (kinda sorta, not really) match.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 01:58 PM
Without five ranks in balance, and notice it is RANKS, you are caught flatfooted by balancing. A rogue then shreds you with SA. See? Brought down by grease.

And if you want me to show you how this works, we can set up a fight in Alpha in PbP. You set the rules.

Damn, and I thought that we'd have to concede the point there. Didn't spot that balance thing.

*hi fives over the body of a dead Giamonk*


Er...so the Joker is now fighting two opponents at the same time?

Just the one, the Indianactotum (yes, facepalm.jpg at the name, I know. But it sticks until Azerian comes up with a better name).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 02:02 PM
Eh, he made a core-only monk build, it's common knowledge that the power creep skyrockets as you throw in more and more stuff.

This needs to be core-only until Giacomo can make a non-core build to match, that's the only way to keep this fair. Just someone make up a core-only batman to face him,and you can finally see once and for all what's going on.

I still think Batman will waste him, but eh, at least it would be an even (kinda sorta, not really) match.

I dunno, a factotum using three or four level 3 or lower spells from the core, FoI, and his class will beat him. Not much potential for power creep there.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 02:03 PM
Oh, I'm sorry... I stepped out of core with Corrosive.

Let's try this:



Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000)
Vest of Escape (5200)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000)
+1 Shock Gauntlets (8302)
+2 Breastplate (4350) + Mithral (4000)

29852 total

6148g to spend on scrolls.



Nightwing, Batman's first sidekick who makes it on his own
Rogue 9
Hit Dice: 9d6+18 (49.5)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30
Armor Class: 22 (+4 Dex, +8 [+2 Mithral Breastplate])
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+7
Attack: Unarmed +11 melee (1d8+1d6[Electricity]+2)
Full Attack: Unarmed +11/+6 melee (1d8+1d6[electricity]+2) or Unarmed Snap Kick +9/+9/+4 melee (1d8+1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Snap Kick, Sneak Attack +5d6
Special Qualities: Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Evasion
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +13, Will +5
Abilities: Str 12 Dex 19 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 12
Skills: Escape Artist +22, Use Magic Device +15 (+19 w/ scrolls), Decipher Script +6, Spellcraft +8, Spot +12, Listen +12, Tumble +18, Jump +13, Balance +16, Hide +16, Move Silently +16, Open Lock +8
Feats: Skill Focus [Use Magic Device], Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick

I think that more than equals your Giamonk, without going out of core.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 02:04 PM
Just the one, the Indianactotum (yes, facepalm.jpg at the name, I know. But it sticks until Azerian comes up with a better name).


That's actually a REALLY good one, on par with the 'totum being called Indiana Jones, in fact. It should stick.

I also considered Batman (in his current, non contingenced version, since he is a gigantic brain who is also pretty good at everything else), but the title was taken.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 02:08 PM
I feel quite geeky for naming mine Nightiwng. :smalltongue:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 02:10 PM
Wait, Batman the factotum, and Nightwing the rogue...


We have something good here. Something VERY good. I propose we rename Batman Wizards to God wizards.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 02:10 PM
So, Gia, what does your monk do when the monsters get the drop on the party, or when no one gets surprise (as is the case with 90% of encounters)?

Does he try to use his Enlarge wand in combat, which takes an average of 2 rounds at +9 UMD, and miss a third of the fight?
Does he run away?

How do you use a "run away and wait out buffs" tactic in a party? Where do you run to? Why won't the spellcaster chase the party?

What makes you think you're more likely to fight *under*-CR enemies than *over*-CR? Performance against low-CR creatures is totally irrelevant, because anyone can blow through them.

At level 2, you have an AC of 14. I'm pretty sure this is a federal crime. While you're grappling, you can't move around--monsters can walk up to you and bury their appendage of choice in your kidney.

Now, some CR 3 monsters (note that at level 3 your grapple is only +1 over level 2):
Allip: you want to grapple an Allip? Really?
Animated Object, Large: I've never seen one of those used, but whatever. Grapple of +10. You *have* to be Enlarged for this.
Air Elemental, Medium: at a grapple of -3, I'm pretty sure anyone can outgrapple this thing. Of course, you have to grab it first, and it has Flyby Attack, a 100-foot fly speed, and a touch AC of 14 (meaning you need to roll an 11+ to grab it in the first place).
Ankheg: +12 grapple. Gotta be enlarged to even stand a chance, and then it has a higher score.
Juvenile Arrowhawk: another monster I've never seen, but it has a ranged attack and a fly speed. Grappling is totally irrelevant and useless.
Assassin Vine: I had a low-level rogue nearly killed by one of these once. Grapple of +12, Constrict, etc. gotta be enlarged to even stand a chance.
Wyrmlings: you can grapple these, I guess... except they have a fly speed and a breath weapon to strafe with.
Centaur: grapple of +12 again, and just hope there's only 1, a full attack from this thing will destroy your grappling, AC-12 (no DEX) ass.
Cockatrice: never seen it used (probably because of the petrification). It does have a fly speed, though.
Derro: SLAs, sneakiness, Darkness at will. good to grapple if you can catch them; odds are you get hit by SLAs and poisoned bolts first.
Deinonychus: grapple of +7. Finally, something you can *approximately* match in a grapple without Enlarge.
Dire Ape: grapple of +13. Bad idea.
Dire Wolf: grapple of +15!
Doppelganger: grapple of +5, but *killing* one of these things? It's easy. *Discovering* them, now... that's the big part More of a social challenge than a combat one.
Dryad: you're going to punch a Dryad in the face? What are you, some kind of jerk? (If you are, it's grappleable, but it has SLAs a-plenty.)
Giant Eagle: Fly Speed, Flyby Attack, and a +12 Grapple to boot! You lose.
Earth Elemental, Medium: you win this one.
Ethereal Filcher: uh, wtf? But... it just pops back to the ethereal plane I guess.
Ethereal Marauder: same. Can't hold it. Pops in, hits, pops back.
Ettercap: if you can get past the webs, sure. But at that point it's feeble for anyone.
Fire Elemental, medium: you don't want to grab a fire elemental.
Formian Warrior: Formians don't freaking count. But if they did, you could grapple it.
Violet Fungus: Again, wtf? The poison is the real threat here. You shouldn't get close.
Ghast: you get to make multiple saves against Stench and paralysis! Whee! Hang back and let people with bows take this one.
Giant Ant, Queen: +10. Acid Sting. Doesn't count, though (who the hell has their level 2/3 party fight giant ants? That's just dumb).
Giant Preying Mantis: +11, sneaky.
Giant Wasp: +11, but you've got to be kidding.
Grick: DR 10/magic. You are screwed until level 4.
Hell Hound: fire breath, which it can use in a grapple. On the upside, you have Evasion. On the downside, you'll fail like 40% of the time. I suppose grappling it isn't a bad idea.
Howler: +15, quills, ugh. You lose.
Lion: +12, Rakes, will likely Pounce you. OTOH, you should grapple it anyway, because wrestling a lion is freaking awesome.
Werewolf: you'd win, but, DR.

I'm gonna stop here. I can cover the rest of them if you really want.
But so far, at level 2/3, the SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY of monsters out there aren't at any disadvantage against the monk's grappling, even when he is enlarged. A good number are even at an advantage. Very few are truly at a disadvantage.
Meleeing these things is easier. Well, for the members of the party competent in melee, which doesn't include you.

Draz74
2008-05-17, 02:12 PM
I definitely think the most interesting thing in the whole thread was this:

A class with a Lawful Alignment restriction being represented, by analogy, by one of the most Chaotic characters in all of literature. :confused:


Diplomacy: manly perfume
:smalltongue: Giacomo proves once again that he is European.

(Men in the US call their perfume "cologne," if they use it at all. The American connotation around the word "perfume" is "girly," not a very diplomatic thing for a male to wear. :smallwink:)

... Anyway, I think both sides in this thread have made a few good points and a lot of empty statements that don't hold up under scrutiny. I don't have time to go through the whole thread with rebuttals or support, but here's a few things that stood out to me.

Giacomo has proved (mainly by finally posting a build that ousts the Schroedinger Giamonk) that the Monk class can do a number of the things he claims it can. (For example, I always was confused how he managed to spend skill points on UMD and Spellcraft. Now I have my answer: by ignoring Balance, Jump, Climb, and Escape Artist, which I always considered an important part of the Monk's skill set, and by having a relatively high Intelligence, which I always considered a dump stat for the Monk.)

Giacomo's build is good enough to demonstrate that a Monk character can be a viable contribution to an adventuring party in a non-optimized (e.g. Core Only) environment, where the DM isn't trying too hard to challenge the players. It's still the weakest class in Core IMO, but anyone who says the Monk is actually useless is either referring to a more-optimized campaign, or is heavily exaggerating. (But that was my opinion anyway. The Giamonk has really done nothing to change it.)

Anyone posting counterarguments using non-Core material is really undermining their own credibility within the limits of discussion that Giacomo is trying to hold to here. Sorry, SamTheCleric. I'd rather play your Rogue than the Giamonk, but all the same, you haven't managed to outdo the Monk as a Core-Only Unarmed Damage-dealing machine. (Not that doing more unarmed damage than everyone else is as important as Giacomo seems to believe.)

Oh, and Chronos, most things don't have any ranks in Balance. And they still don't get beaten by Level 1 Wizards (if their CR is, say, 4 or higher) or Level 1 Commoner Children With Marbles. That argument doesn't hold water at all.

@Giacomo:
Likewise, you really undermined two of your own arguments. The first was when you claimed that the Monk wasn't any more MAD than anyone else ... and then you posted a sample build that had no ability scores above 14 at Level 1. Starting with 18's might be overrated, but the fact remains that most builds can afford (with 28-point buy) to have at least a 16 in their primary ability score to start out. Wizards and Druids can even afford an 18. The fact that you had to have four 14's proves the Monk's MAD weakness quite soundly.

The second was your Oberoni Fallacy relating to Wild Shape. You essentially said something like, "Wild Shape isn't actually broken, because it's so broken that no DM would allow it to continue existing." (I know there was some sarcasm going on here, and that part of your actual intent was actually to imply that the double standard between Polymorph and Wild Shape is ridiculous. And I agree; as DM, I would certainly nerf Wild Shape just as much as I would nerf Polymorph. But some DMs truly don't agree, sadly, and will be quite happy to ban Polymorph and allow Wild Shape. Others just allow Polymorph anyway, and the Druid will still be able to out-unarmed-fight your Giamonk, because of other factors and the fact that Polymorph items are very expensive. Still other DMs will nerf both Polymorph and Wild Shape in a reasonable way, e.g. the Shapeshifter Druid variant in the PHB II, and the Druid will still out-claw and out-grapple the Giamonk.)

Also, I don't think you've adequately addressed the point that many DMs won't allow masterwork items of every skill, especially UMD. The rules leave this option open, but they don't explicitly say, "You can find tools of this sort for every skill in the game."

And relating to both of the previous paragraphs ... if your DM is really that much of a slave to the RAW, then the Monk actually is a very strong class. All he has to do is Diplomance his way to victory over everybody except Bards. :smallyuk:

I also think Solo's list of CR 10 monsters -- which someone should expand, for completeness -- does a good job of showing that the Giamonk really is not that good of a grappler, at mid-levels and up.


Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Appeal is in the works. We shall see what happens, come July. Somehow I doubt the Joker will vanquish The Dark Knight this time. (Might have something to do with the way his actor is dead and thus his potential for appearing in a sequel is pretty well shot.)

warmachine
2008-05-17, 02:14 PM
I tell ya. I'm not going to run some of those masterwork items past my DM, especially the wires.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 02:15 PM
Wait, Batman the factotum, and Nightwing the rogue...


This needs to be done.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 02:16 PM
We have something good here. Something VERY good. I propose we rename Batman Wizards to God wizards.

Already exists. God-wizards are Treantmonklvl20's (the idea of such a build makes me weep) creation; an alternate view of the LogicNinja classic, with, in my opinion, a bit too much of a fetish for summons.

We can't yet collapse Batman Wizards into the Cindy/Tipzard nightmare, with it's nigh-invulnerability, so I'm stumped.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 02:18 PM
Indeed. Anyone up for making a Joker Psion, a poisonous Succubus druid and seductress, and a fat, small, tux wearing diplomancer? Oh, and a masterful Thief of some kind, female.

Edit: Hmm...wizard names...How about Martian Manhunter? Franklin Richards? Doctor Strange?

Bleen
2008-05-17, 02:18 PM
Lion: +12, Rakes, will likely Pounce you. OTOH, you should grapple it anyway, because wrestling a lion is freaking awesome.
Just be sure to have a car nearby, right?

Scintillatus
2008-05-17, 02:22 PM
The only thing I have learned from this thread is that I really need to get Dungeonscape.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 02:23 PM
Then, good has come out of this. Because Penetrating Strike and Factotum are freakin' awesome.

And Dungeoncrasher is too, but less so.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 02:24 PM
The only thing I have learned from this thread is that I really need to get Dungeonscape.

While I do not wish to assume an unwarranted proxy status, I am sure that I can reliably say that Rich Burlew approves this message.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 02:25 PM
Anyone posting counterarguments using non-Core material is really undermining their own credibility within the limits of discussion that Giacomo is trying to hold to here. Sorry, SamTheCleric. I'd rather play your Rogue than the Giamonk, but all the same, you haven't managed to outdo the Monk as a Core-Only Unarmed Damage-dealing machine. (Not that doing more unarmed damage than everyone else is as important as Giacomo seems to believe.)


I'm not saying I'd play it... or that its in any way optimized (what rogue spends their feats on unarmed combat?!)... I just wanted to show that the Giamonk isn't a monk build. It's an Use Magic Device build.

If I -really- wanted to make a core-only rogue, he'd look a lot different. :smallsmile:

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-17, 02:28 PM
Anyway... Giacomo, it's possible to build a viable monk, but... this isn't it. First, I'm sorry, you passed up Stunning Fist; the choices for getting it are either first level monk or +8 BAB. Guess which one's steeper? Even with Improved Grapple, the monk falls massively behind even full BAB classes in the grappling department fairly rapidly, and even further behind monsters. For instance, let me take this barbarian (http://www.libriumarcana.com/RPG/public_profiler/view.php?id=12), who I have played from level one without a set build strategy (that is, he's a fully organic character) and compare to your level 15 point, since that's where he's at right now.

Grapple. The main part of your build. His grapple modifier is higher than yours. You enlarge yourself? He rages; it's now even more. You bust out divine power? He busts out divine power and righteous might, thanks to runescarred berserker. Your purpose-built grapple monk is outclassed in this area on every level of buffing.

Stunning Fist. By this point, you've gotten Stunning Fist by taking the feat the hard way. Great. Rraskinar here has to roll a natural 1 to fail the save against it. Great going there, champ.

Use Magic Device. He doesn't have it, it's true. He doesn't need it for buffs, though, thanks to his runescars. Even discounting that, the magic devices you have to use aren't the sort that can stop him.

Attack Bonus. Ow, man. Just ow. His attack bonus for his highest attack is a good eleven points higher when he's raging, which, barring some sort of effect forcing him to end his rage, is the only way he fights anything. He also has Power Attack. This is not a good combination for you.

Damage. Average damage for your monk is 46 when fully buffed. Great; Rraskinar is busting out upwards of 50 himself thanks to Power Attack with just rage (and his attack bonus is high enough to power attack for seven or eight while raging and still reliably hit), and it rushes up to near a hundred when he buffs himself. Unlike your monk, most of his damage is in static bonuses, so it's a lot more reliable than your mass of dice.

Hit Points. Yeah... He can one-hit the Giamonk all day long. And throw his body across the room just for the heck of it, thanks to the brutal surge weapon property, but that's just gravy.

Armor Class. You know, given that he's a barbarian, you'd expect your AC to be a lot higher than his, relatively speaking, than it actually is. :smalltongue: As it stands, he's actually harder to hit, due to the cloak of displacement.

Special Attacks. We've already covered grappling, but let's get into other things. The brutal surge weapon property allows him to initiate a bull rush on a creature he hits; the target is pushed back as far as the check allows, but he doesn't have to follow. His Bull Rush modifier is a lot higher than the monk's. The Wolf Berserker feat gives him +4 to trip attempts, and to resist being tripped. (It also qualifies him for Improved Trip, but that'll be 18th level.) So not only does he stand a fair chance of tripping the monk should he care to try, but it'll be very hard for the monk to return the favor. Your monk has Improved Disarm, which is handy, but good luck getting that axe from him; he's stronger, has higher BAB, and it's a two-handed weapon.

I think that about covers all the basics, and I'm comparing a totally non-optimized organic build.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 02:28 PM
And if we wanted the cheese...

Hell, I keep playing my 'totum but actually care about equipment, and Sam dives for Penetrating strike and ambush feats.

And we use THIS THEME. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBobrCBTNI)

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 02:41 PM
Wow, I'm not very bright. I completely skipped over the fact that Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick aren't core (see how quickly the game changes when you don't have those kind of restrictions? I didn't even notice!)

So, those two feats need to be replaced... so my unarmed damage becomes 1d3+1d6+2 (7.5 average) vs 2d8+3 (12 average). A much bigger gap now.

But I have two open feats... To the batcave!

GoC
2008-05-17, 02:44 PM
This has probably been said before but didn't Chosen_of_Vecna tell us about a little feat that renders spot obselete?
Mindsight or something.

Should we do a Cindy vs. Sir Giacomo's Monk battle?
Actually Chosen of Vecna's wizards might be better...

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 02:44 PM
GoC: yes, but you need telepathy to get it. Gotta be a ghostwise halfling, then, or a Hellbred (?).

Draz74
2008-05-17, 02:48 PM
I'm not saying I'd play it... or that its in any way optimized (what rogue spends their feats on unarmed combat?!)... I just wanted to show that the Giamonk isn't a monk build. It's an Use Magic Device build.

If I -really- wanted to make a core-only rogue, he'd look a lot different. :smallsmile:

Oh, I figured. But still ... saying "your Monk sucks, because I can beat it at its own game with a different class" doesn't work, when part of "its own game" was Core-Only and you use Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick.

Oh, and in your Array of Batman Characters duel, make sure Batman has some Swordsage dips to go with his Factotum levels. :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 02:54 PM
Possibly. The question is, how many? Factotum already makes him a truly masterful martial artist, and while swordsage adds a bit, it's not that much if you don't get at least Avalanche of Blades and Swooping Dragon strike.

Draz74
2008-05-17, 03:03 PM
Possibly. The question is, how many? Factotum already makes him a truly masterful martial artist, and while swordsage adds a bit, it's not that much if you don't get at least Avalanche of Blades and Swooping Dragon strike.

I dunno. Possibly even Factotum 8/Swordsage 12, though that's not much of a "dip." I'm also considering character thematics more than optimization. Batman just seems like a Shadow Hand lover. (Also, he's impossible to represent with 28-point buy. All of his scores have got to be at least 14.)

@Giacomo:
You can read pretty much all you'll ever need to know about the Factotum on this (http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-187655.html) review of Dungeonscape. Scroll down the page about 2/3 of the way to get to the detailed part.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 03:17 PM
I dunno. Possibly even Factotum 8/Swordsage 12, though that's not much of a "dip." I'm also considering character thematics more than optimization. Batman just seems like a Shadow Hand lover. (Also, he's impossible to represent with 28-point buy. All of his scores have got to be at least 14.)

@Giacomo:
You can read pretty much all you'll ever need to know about the Factotum on this (http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-187655.html) review of Dungeonscape. Scroll down the page about 2/3 of the way to get to the detailed part.

There, I have to disagree. All of his stats are at least at 12, but he can get by with just that and maxed init due to the combo of the cunning X's, the once-per-day-obscene-level-to-skill bonus, and Brains Over Brawn.

Though yeah, I prefer to have Batman stick to Factotum for all the levels and rather have Prometheus, The Taskmaster, and Deathstroke be the swordsages, which appropiately represents their greater martial skill (And yes, I KNOW the Taskmaster is a marvel character, but he has fought Bats.)

SamTheCleric
2008-05-17, 03:29 PM
Oh, I figured. But still ... saying "your Monk sucks, because I can beat it at its own game with a different class" doesn't work, when part of "its own game" was Core-Only and you use Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick.


Yeah I realized that like 3 or 5 posts up. I'm really not trying to show up Gia... I'd just like to see a Monk build... not a UMD build.

And its not hard.. I'm trying out a monk right now in a PbP game (all core, save for Versatile Unarmed Strike from PHB2). I'm having fun with it... and am contributing significantly to the party... by being a monk. Not ignoring everything that is "monk"

EDIT: Oh, and Taskmaster = Win. Favorite villain. Captain America being the favorite hero. :)

lord_khaine
2008-05-17, 03:45 PM
Anyway... Giacomo, it's possible to build a viable monk, but... this isn't it. First, I'm sorry, you passed up Stunning Fist; the choices for getting it are either first level monk or +8 BAB. Guess which one's steeper? Even with Improved Grapple, the monk falls massively behind even full BAB classes in the grappling department fairly rapidly, and even further behind monsters. For instance, let me take this barbarian, who I have played from level one without a set build strategy (that is, he's a fully organic character) and compare to your level 15 point, since that's where he's at right now.

Renegade Paladin, please dont tell me that you cant see the problems in comparing your barbarian, who has both a prestice class, as well as feats and gear from god knows how many sources.... with the GiaMonk who is singel class, and core :smallconfused:


We're talking about the Giacomo school of monks here, though. Your own school of monk building deserves it's own thread.

why thank you, i must admit i have considderet to write my own guide, but im wasting to much time reading the forums atm to get it done.


First off, get some form of spellcheck. Seriously.

well im not writing in my native languagede, so it affects my spelling, but if you find it so awfull then link me a decent online spellchecker, and i will use it each time i reply to one of your posts.


Second, I googled CR 10 monsters on the SRD google, and pretty much everything I came up with that was CR10 would be a challenge for the Giamonk. Granted, I stopped looking after 2-3 pages, so maybe all the weenie grapplers were hiding in the back. Would you care to do a more thorough analysis in order to refute me?


ok it seems there are 10 CR 10 creatures, after spending 50 gp on a potion of enlarge, then the Khainemonk can grapple the Couatle, formian myrmac, Fire giant, Clay golem, Guardian Naga, Rakasha and salamandar noble. (bit confused over only getting 10 monsters, did get a errormessage on the search site)

thats 7/10, in a case where the challenge rating says that the party should only face one of these in a normal encounter.
also the Fire giant and the Salamander does have a higher grapple score, but they also use weapons, so at the moment where the monk get a hold on one of them, then he has allready won, since they would have to waste a action on getting lose.


The two monsters are beaten by the Enlarged Giamonk. And the Enlarged Giamonk would in turn be beaten by the Enlarged version of those 2 creatures.

as we have allready found out, its not all creatures who can use the enlarge spell.


In conclusion, solo win.

but he does it alone, so we might wonder how much he actualy won.

edit.

Yeah I realized that like 3 or 5 posts up. I'm really not trying to show up Gia... I'd just like to see a Monk build... not a UMD build.

well there are 2 major schools of monks here in the playground, The School of Gia who uses UMD, and the School of Khaine who dont(and like str)

some time ago i made a level 20 version of my monk type for a balance test, it should be in the play-by post forum alpha, under the post "a balancing act"

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 03:47 PM
well im not writing in my native languagede, so it affects my spelling, but if you find it so awfull then link me a decent online spellchecker, and i will use it each time i reply to one of your posts.

The web browsers Firefox and Safari both have a built in, as you type, spellcheck. Hope that helps.


but he does it alone, so we might wonder how much he actualy won.

He doesn't have the power of friendship? :smallfrown:

lord_khaine
2008-05-17, 03:52 PM
He doesn't have the power of friendship?

no, thats why he would lose to Khainemonk :smallwink:

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 04:20 PM
Giacomo's build is good enough to demonstrate that a Monk character can be a viable contribution to an adventuring party in a non-optimized (e.g. Core Only) environment, where the DM isn't trying too hard to challenge the players. It's still the weakest class in Core IMO, but anyone who says the Monk is actually useless is either referring to a more-optimized campaign, or is heavily exaggerating. (But that was my opinion anyway. The Giamonk has really done nothing to change it.)
Giacomo's monk can't out-grapple monsters consistently--it's at on an even footing at best. It sure as hell can't do anything ELSE. And the first time it grapples a non-solo enemy, the other enemies will beat the hell out of his puny AC.
And that's WITH enlarge, which he has to spend at least one, average two, rounds putting up.
I'd rather have any other character class along. Gia's managed to build a monk that's worse than the Soulknife until very high levels.

marjan
2008-05-17, 04:31 PM
Let's see here. You have +19 UMD at level 20. That means to cast a level 9 scroll, you need to roll a 10, so 55% chance of success.

Assume a level 20 rogue with a 10 charisma. Skill focus (UMD) and Magical Aptitude.

23 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2 magical aptitude. I can cast level 9 scrolls by rolling a 1.

Not to mention the Circlet of Persuation (+3), Spellsight Spectacles (+5 UMD for casting from scrolls), +2 (synergy from Decipher Script)

That's a +38. Overkill? Maybe. Much better at doing what the Giamonk does? Definately.

A slight flaw in your calculation here:


The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll.

So you would need at least 37 on your check for lvl9 spell, or more depending on the CL, not 29.

Eldariel
2008-05-17, 04:39 PM
The restrictions basically mean that no melee-characters will be playable, which makes the guide mostly meaningless; non-multiclass core only characters have absolutely no way of contributing meaningfully beyond midlevels. If we could use splatbooks and Monk could contribute meaningfully, I may give the class a little credit. Even then though, it'd probably just have 1-2 levels of Monk for Monk damage progression and use a real class instead.

The problem with Slow Fall isn't the uselessness, it's the fact that it's a scaling 20-level ability that replicates a level 1 spell (Featherfall).

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-17, 04:40 PM
So the Gaimonk is substantially worse than advertised? Surprise!

And isn't it actually worse than the spell at 20th level? Plus, why not take the unarmed variant Swordsage? its better off than a monk. Of course, this assumes ToB.

Draz74
2008-05-17, 04:48 PM
And the first time it grapples a non-solo enemy, the other enemies will beat the hell out of his puny AC.

Oh yeah. While I think the rest of what you're saying is overstated, I did want to mention that the Giamonk's AC is awful. Kind of surprising considering how some Monk fans laud its ability to get high AC. (Though to his credit, I don't remember Giacomo ever specifically claiming that.)

(Yes, Monks can get very high AC. But only by spending at least as many resources on it as other characters.)

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 05:14 PM
Oh yeah. While I think the rest of what you're saying is overstated, I did want to mention that the Giamonk's AC is awful. Kind of surprising considering how some Monk fans laud its ability to get high AC. (Though to his credit, I don't remember Giacomo ever specifically claiming that.)

(Yes, Monks can get very high AC. But only by spending at least as many resources on it as other characters.)

It's not overstated. Look at that list of CR 3 monsters; compare them with the level 2-3 monk. On average, he's on an even footing (a few he's better than, a few--like the ones with +15--will kick his ass). And this is after Enlarge.
And this is ignoring the fact that he's going to get killed the first time he grapples something that isn't alone.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 05:14 PM
Oh yeah. While I think the rest of what you're saying is overstated, I did want to mention that the Giamonk's AC is awful.

Even worse, this AC is dependent on the Mage Armor spell, with the assumption that you loan the pearl of power to the party caster, who will then cast it (since mage armors from a wand don't last long enough).

However, what if the party caster doesn't have that spell? Oops, the "frontliner" suddenly has the AC of a barn. Perhaps the caster is a warmage, or a bard, or warlock, none of which have it on their class list. The caster could even be a sorcerer who didn't want to spend a slot on that, or a wizard banning conjuration (yes, we all know banning conjuration is a dumb move, but it's about on the same power level as playing a UMD monk).

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-17, 05:16 PM
Renegade Paladin, please dont tell me that you cant see the problems in comparing your barbarian, who has both a prestice class, as well as feats and gear from god knows how many sources.... with the GiaMonk who is singel class, and core :smallconfused:
Oh, I see them, but a bog-standard power attacking barbarian would outclass him in much the same way. Seriously, his attack bonus is a whopping +16 at 15th level. That is pitiful.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 05:19 PM
Oh, I see them, but a bog-standard power attacking barbarian would outclass him in much the same way. Seriously, his attack bonus is a whopping +16 at 15th level. That is pitiful.

And good luck grappling monsters around that level.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 05:46 PM
And good luck grappling monsters around that level.

Actually, it's not all that bad that the gonk can't grapple. Here's why...

Playing at level ten, the party turns a corner in the dungeon and comes face to face with a horde of ugly green things.

Round one. Rogue throws a dagger with sneak attack; fighter charges; wizard casts greater invis on the rogue; cleric casts prayer; gonk uses a wand of heroism on himself.

Round two. Rogue wades into melee, invisible, and starts stabbing; fighter full attacks with cleave; wizard casts black tentacles and quickened grease; cleric casts quickened divine favor and attacks; gonk uses a wand of eagle's splendour, but fails his check.

Round three. Rogue, fighter, and cleric keep mashing the UGTs; wizard casts haste. Gonk uses the wand of eagle's splendour again, succeeding this time. Now the gonk can use wands with a 100% success rate for the next five minutes, or until hit by a dispel magic, whichever comes first.

Round four. More melee, supported by wizard artillery. Gonk takes out a wand of enlarge, another of those nifty one-encounter buff spells.

Round five. Gonk finishes his buff sequence by casting Blink on himself, just as the fighter finishes his battle sequence by slicing the last UGT in half. Ah, another encounter well-fought, with shining examples of teamwork, and the gonk never failed a single grapple check. Gonk fires a few shots of his CLW wand so that the cleric doesn't have to waste his spell slots. And the party travels on.

Aside from all that, note that Heroism and Holy Sword are not on the list of wands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm). Hardly surprising, as bards and paladins are unlikely to take crafting feats. Furthermore, Blink, Divine Power, and Fly aren't on that list either. So while it may sound reasonable to assume that any spell you want is available on wand, it would seem that in practice, you'll have to ask your DM.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-17, 05:47 PM
Even worse, this AC is dependent on the Mage Armor spell, with the assumption that you loan the pearl of power to the party caster, who will then cast it (since mage armors from a wand don't last long enough).

However, what if the party caster doesn't have that spell? Oops, the "frontliner" suddenly has the AC of a barn. Perhaps the caster is a warmage, or a bard, or warlock, none of which have it on their class list. The caster could even be a sorcerer who didn't want to spend a slot on that, or a wizard banning conjuration (yes, we all know banning conjuration is a dumb move, but it's about on the same power level as playing a UMD monk).

Plus, as a pearl of power only allows you to recall a spell you just cast, what if they simply decide not to prepare it? So even if they have the spell and can cast it , the Ac still isn't a certain thing.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 06:05 PM
Also, looking at Giacomo's "wand budget" for various levels... it just plain doesn't work without whatever partially-charged wands he wants being available.
And that's just plain an invention of Giacomo's. It's not supported by the rules (being able to make a high-level character with a partially-charged wand or two does not mean that you can buy them in game. Being able to sell partially used wands you find also does not mean you can buy whatever ones you want in game). It's not supported by any DMs, either, since it's obviously ridiculous ("I'll take 20 1-charge wands of Divine Power. So lucky for me 20 adventuring groups sold their single-charged wands right here!").
So it doesn't work. A wand budget of 10,800 at 10th level? That'll buy you a single third-level wand, if you saved it all. Which you haven't, if you've been using wands at lower levels.
This is why Giacomo pretends so hard that partially charged wands ARE a real option: he knows even these weak builds aren't possible without that.

Zanatos777
2008-05-17, 06:13 PM
I was wondering everyone was focused on the grapple mods when Giacomo wants this to be a caster killer. So I created a sample wizard. He is not specifically made to defeat any specific foe and frankly would love to have a party with him.

Here he is:
Wizard 10
Gray Elf

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12; 14
Int: 18; 20; 24
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Feats: Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Extend Spell, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation), Quicken Spell
Skills: Concentration +14; Decipher Script +6; Knowledge (arcane) +18; Knowledge (dungeonerring) +18; Knowledge (local) +15; Knowledge (nature) +18; Knowledge (planes) +18; Knowledge (religion) +18; Ride +3 Spellcraft +21
Magic Equipment: (45,995 gp) Headband of Intellect +4 (16,000); Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000); Heward’s Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); Amulet of Health +2 (4,000 gp); 2 Pearls of Power 1 (2,000 gp); Wand of Knock (50 charges, 4,500 gp); Rod of Lesser Extend (3,000 gp), Wand of Magic Missile (7th 50 charges, 5,250 gp)
Mundane Equipment: Spell book (15 gp), Spell Component Pouch (5 gp), blah, blah, blah standard adventuring gear ~20 gp, Darkwood Buckler (205 gp)
HP: 54 (rolled)
AC: 17 (with mage armor), 13 touch, 14 flat-footed
Saves: Fort: +8; Ref: +8; Will: +10
BAB: +5

Spells: CL 10; DC:10+spell level+7; 3/4/5/6/6/4
5th: baleful polymorph (DC 24), hold monster, overland flight
4th: solid fog, greater invisibility, phantasmal killer, enervation
3rd: 2 fly, dispel magic, 2 hold person
2nd: rope trick, see invisibility, 2 glitterdust (DC 20), 2 Invisibility
1st: mage armor*, silent image, 2 grease (DC: 19), shield, magic missile
0th: light, 2 detect magic, prestitigitation


I used level 10 since that seemed to be what people were talking about most.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 06:15 PM
Not having Overland Flight at level 10 is punishable by law.

Zanatos777
2008-05-17, 06:17 PM
I don't memorize that spell. I prefer to walk around with my party. I know it would be more effective but so would different feat choices.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-17, 06:19 PM
I don't memorize that spell. I prefer to walk around with my party. I know it would be more effective but so would different feat choices.

Walk around all you freaking like, just make sure that you can start flying when combat starts... or go to prison.

Overland Flight: it's not just a good idea. It's the law.

DMfromTheAbyss
2008-05-17, 06:25 PM
I think some of you are sort of missing the point of this build.

He basically uses UMD to buff... yeah yeah, still not the point.

He's a cheap MO FO

He sneaks around, scouts out enemies and wrongs them on his terms. He's not shy about running away, running out the clock on the opponents and only engaging if he can win. So basically he's a real bastard in a fight. He specializes in taking out 1 guy (grappling) and just plain avoiding (or passing on) guys he can't take.

I wouldn't say he's a great duelist, not even great on damage output. But he is a bastard I wouldn't wanna cross in game. He fly's in out of left field gets in some cheap shots then poof gone.

Good at taking out wizards... Barbarians and fighters not so much, but a good answer to the "Batman".

Can a party take him... heck yeah if they can find the weasely bastard.
Would a party want him with them... heck yeah he deals with enemy casters and is a general pain in the enemy casters keister even if he doesn't get them.

I'd say this wouldn't work in a party... but I was once playing a 1st level monk with a Barbarian and a druid, fighting a wererat. I couldn't hurt the were rat obviously... but I did keep him in grapple and the Barbarian (with a shillelagh by the druid) gave him some nice hits to finish him off. I didn't kill the rat... but the rat got pretty much 0 rounds to effectively attack us... so useful to a party.. certainly.

To respond to the below
I didn't get aten alive by having improved grapple and a decent strength.. By making some grapple checks I pinned him... he escaped... I grabbed him again and basically not alot was accomplished... except the party's survival of course.

The whole idea of running away if you can't deal with something is fine if your friends aren't with you. The build is built around scouting and hiding... one had best not do that with the party tank in tow.
He's said more recently that this is good vs monsters (and not a PVP build), from experience being able to take a monster and either beat it soundly in a grapple, or just hang on and bother it for awhile and make it deal with you can be beneficial to a party.

Griffin131
2008-05-17, 06:29 PM
I'd say this wouldn't work in a party... but I was once playing a 1st level monk with a Barbarian and a druid, fighting a wererat. I couldn't hurt the were rat obviously... but I did keep him in grapple and the Barbarian (with a shillelagh by the druid) gave him some nice hits to finish him off. I didn't kill the rat... but the rat got pretty much 0 rounds to effectively attack us... so useful to a party.. certainly.
How did you not get eaten alive in the grapple?

And Giamonk, by the creators own statement, is designed to run away if he cant handle the fight. Where does that leave his buddies?

Not missing much I suppose, but its the principle of the thing.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 06:33 PM
Also, looking at Giacomo's "wand budget" for various levels... it just plain doesn't work without whatever partially-charged wands he wants being available.
And that's just plain an invention of Giacomo's. It's not supported by the rules (being able to make a high-level character with a partially-charged wand or two does not mean that you can buy them in game. Being able to sell partially used wands you find also does not mean you can buy whatever ones you want in game). It's not supported by any DMs, either, since it's obviously ridiculous ("I'll take 20 1-charge wands of Divine Power. So lucky for me 20 adventuring groups sold their single-charged wands right here!").
So it doesn't work. A wand budget of 10,800 at 10th level? That'll buy you a single third-level wand, if you saved it all. Which you haven't, if you've been using wands at lower levels.
This is why Giacomo pretends so hard that partially charged wands ARE a real option: he knows even these weak builds aren't possible without that.

Exactly. Also, if you are going by full RAW (and RAI), rather than the simplified model that is usually used, then you can't buy them for such prices, either, since everyone else is trying to make a profit against you.

EDIT:DM from the Abyss - not right, on two counts:

Making a PC to fight another PC does not a good PC make; though I'll credit that this was Giacomo's fault, not your own.
This thing does not beat a proper Batman wizard (c.f. ... ah, just search for the word 'monk' in thread titles in this forum)

Ralfarius
2008-05-17, 06:33 PM
I have come to two tentative conclusions:

1. Sir Giacomo is playing the most elaborate straight-man routine ever, and laughing at us from the other end of the internet.

2. This thread is even more entertaining with the theme Azerian Kelimon linked.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 06:41 PM
Ralfarius - if you are correct (on 1.), then I must kneel and pay liege to the mighty skill of this true warrior of the internet. Poe's Law strikes again, I'm afraid, although, speaking as someone whose idea of amusement it is to cultivate such a straight man routine (not on this forum, one doesn't soil one's own nest), it normally is goal-orientated; you build this up towards some massive explosion of drama, lulz, or B&s (all three is a plus). Giacomo's been up to this for about a year now; either he has an incredibly audacious motive (e.g., defeat Solo in a one-on-one round of Insult Swordfighting, cause half of the board membership to go and form 'titan in the recreation field' after a massive fall-out, or something), or he's for reals.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-17, 06:42 PM
I was wondering everyone was focused on the grapple mods when Giacomo wants this to be a caster killer. So I created a sample wizard. He is not specifically made to defeat any specific foe and frankly would love to have a party with him.

Well, that depends. The gonk will likely fail his save against whatever you throw at him, which means that you win if any of the following holds: (1) you win initiative, (2) the encounter starts outside his charge range, (3) he can't charge because of obstacles or interposing creatures, (4) you are up in the air outside his jump range, (5) you happen to be invisible at the time, or (6) he follows his listed strategy of first buffing himself with splendor and heroism to get his UMD up to par, then finish off with wands of enlarge, blink and fly.

If none of the above hold, he can charge you and grapple. At that point you could employ numerous ways of getting out of there, or dimdoor, or free movement, or any non-somatic spell (since you can cast those in a grapple).

So yeah. A very effective caster killer. Not.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 06:51 PM
I'm happy that my theme is useful. Finally, Critical Post payed off.

Scribe, that was so funny my gut hurts from trying to contain the laughs. You can have your own personal coolness theme. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJR5GW5roFY)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 07:21 PM
Anything for a fellow member of the Optimisation Cabal :smallwink:.

Solo
2008-05-17, 08:50 PM
View Post
And the first time it grapples a non-solo enemy, the other enemies will beat the hell out of his puny AC.
Why would he want to grapple me in the first place?

Lord_khaine:

why thank you, i must admit i have considderet to write my own guide, but im wasting to much time reading the forums atm to get it done.
Don't take this the wrong way..... but please send it to me first for proof reading, ok?


well im not writing in my native languagede, so it affects my spelling, but if you find it so awfull then link me a decent online spellchecker, and i will use it each time i reply to one of your posts.
Firefox comes with a good built in spellcheck, as does MS word.


ok it seems there are 10 CR 10 creatures, after spending 50 gp on a potion of enlarge, then the Khainemonk can grapple the Couatle, formian myrmac, Fire giant, Clay golem, Guardian Naga, Rakasha and salamandar noble. (bit confused over only getting 10 monsters, did get a errormessage on the search site)
Lucky for you: the SRD isn't even loading for me now (The Commies are blocking my access from China)
As for the potion of Enlarge giving you a bonus.... what if the monster gets Enlarged as well


well there are 2 major schools of monks here in the playground, The School of Gia who uses UMD, and the School of Khaine who dont(and like str)
I approve of the School of Khaine.

Actually, come to think of it, my major gripe with the School of Gia is that he has a UMD grapple build, not a monk build, but he doesn't acknowledge the fact that it is a not-monk build.

Giacomo:


And enlarge person only applies to humanoids, not the vast majority of monsters.

You an Enlarge something by using a spell other than Enlarge Person, can't you?


Nope, though you are free to stay in this belief...Actually I plan to add later a check of your sorcerer spells once proposed in a different thread at the given monk levels to see, if the monk has a good chance. My gut feeling tells me Ozymandias should avoid the Joker

70%-65% fail chance @ level 10



I hardly see anyone ridiculing a Cleric using divine power to emulate a fighter (although he fails at it btw). Or a wizard using invisibility and flying to be a scout (although not that optimised, either imo)

Cause they use their class abilities (which they are suppose to, being class abilities), whereas your monk uses a non class ability?

Say, Giacomo, maybe you're busy, but how come this part of my post wasn't addressed?




DMG p. 212-215 outlines how magic items shoudl be handled. At the bottom of page 214 even the process of pricing a partially charged wand is explained and that player characters can of course sell them when having found them in treasures. Now, I wonder, if they can sell them why should they not be able to buy them? Why should there be only a market for new cars, but not for used ones?

You can sell a 1988 Audi at any used car lot, but the chances of going to any used car lot and finding a 1988 Audi are much smaller. Understood?

By the way, can you quote the specific text for those of us without a copy of the DMG?



Most of the times, you’ll read about a very popular monk myth, the multi ability dependence (MAD). Allegedly, the monk has to have more high stats everywhere than everyone else
True, the monk can make use out of great scores in all his abilites. So can everyone else. No difference. So everyone is MAD (multi ability dependendet), to the same degree. Or no one is. It is that simple.


You only need INT and moderate DEX/CON to be an effective wizard. An effective monk needs more than good ONESTAT and moderate OTHERSTAT/OTHERSTAT. Thus they are MAD by the additive property of addition.


Here’s a short list of stuff either ONLY the monk can do or can do best in core.
- best grappler (No. of attacks, damage, bonus feat, spc additional effects like stunning fist- Note: FAQ has nerfed to no longer use stunning fist to be possible alongside grapple damage, so use unarmed strike with stun before grapple or in grapple at -4. His medium BAB does not matter much, and he can easily overcome it – see below)
- fastest scout (highest move, spot/listen/move silently/hide as class skills). Combined with the highest movement speed this means the monk has the highest chance of achieving a surprise melee attack.

1. As Talic's table of CR appropriate and under CR monsters has shown, your grapple modifier will be outclassed by a lot of monsters in the DMG.
2. Barbarians move quickly too.
3. How are you maxing out spot/listen/move silently/hide while also having enough skill points to max out UMD and avoiding MAD?


Highest base damage dice eventually.
Base damage is weak if you don't have the muscle to back it up. That means you'll need high strength. MAD yet?


Level 10 Joker

UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged
Lol.

Avrg. 12 dmg, 17.5 enlarged @ lvl 10.

Lulz



SAVES: Fort +9, Refl +10, Will +10 (+12 vs enchantment)
Ozymandias can toss out a DC23 Save or X spell at your level. 20 (+5) CHA, +4 (+2) item, +1 School Focus (pre-req for Archmage), +5 from a level 5 spell (Baleful Polymorph, anyone?) + 10 = +23
Your fort save succeeds on a 14. that is a 70% chance of failure. But I'm sure your 3d8+4 base damage and your +14(+19) grapple mod make up for it.


Also, for a guide to playing monks, you sure spend a lot of time talking about how to PvP wizards.



Thus, I conclude

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/199/monkdl8.jpg



Edit:



Should we do a Cindy vs. Sir Giacomo's Monk battle?
Actually Chosen of Vecna's wizards might be better...
.......

*stab*



Scribe, that was so funny my gut hurts from trying to contain the laughs. You can have your own personal coolness theme.
.......

*stabitty stab stab*

Chronos
2008-05-17, 08:58 PM
Quoth DMfromTheAbyss:
He sneaks around, scouts out enemies and wrongs them on his terms. He's not shy about running away, running out the clock on the opponents and only engaging if he can win. So basically he's a real bastard in a fight. He specializes in taking out 1 guy (grappling) and just plain avoiding (or passing on) guys he can't take.That's a perfectly valid playstyle, and if you're going to play a monk, it's not a bad route to go. But that's not the route that Giacomo is going. First of all, he needs his party around all the time, so he can't realistically do things like run out the clock on enemies or run away. Second, his total hide mod is only +31, which means there's still a pretty good chance of spells (or rangers, or rogues, or druids, or animals) spotting him, even if he doesn't do anything to give himself away, and if he does something like attack, then everyone's going to see him. A good core-only sneaky bastard build will have a minimum Hide check better than this monk's maximum.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 09:17 PM
Why would he want to grapple me in the first place?

Lord_khaine:

Don't take this the wrong way..... but please send it to me first for proof reading, ok?


Firefox comes with a good built in spellcheck, as does MS word.


Lucky for you: the SRD isn't even loading for me now (The Commies are blocking my access from China)
As for the potion of Enlarge giving you a bonus.... what if the monster gets Enlarged as well


I approve of the School of Khaine.

Actually, come to think of it, my major gripe with the School of Gia is that he has a UMD grapple build, not a monk build, but he doesn't acknowledge the fact that it is a not-monk build.

Giacomo:

You an Enlarge something by using a spell other than Enlarge Person, can't you?



70%-65% fail chance @ level 10



Cause they use their class abilities (which they are suppose to, being class abilities), whereas your monk uses a non class ability?

Say, Giacomo, maybe you're busy, but how come this part of my post wasn't addressed?



Also, for a guide to playing monks, you sure spend a lot of time talking about how to PvP wizards.



Thus, I conclude

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/199/monkdl8.jpg



Edit:


.......

*stab*


.......

*stabitty stab stab*

Hey, solo, chill out. Remember you have your Own (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKg4g9zMeHI) Personal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1mCQKuvzCM) Themes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R82OM5tzcrk). Have mercy on the souls that have not Aleph on the Solo scale of awesome.

Worira
2008-05-17, 09:19 PM
Wait, MW sense motive item? What exactly is that? Note that an alchemist's lab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#alchemistsLab) costs 500 gp and weighs 40 pounds, so don't claim you can make a MW tool for any skill.

Also, the Taskmaster is made of awesome and win.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 09:22 PM
Indeed. That guy is a Factotum who rolled 18's in everything, is Epic twohundredsomething, and has a super beefed up version of the class feature replicating ability.

Bleen
2008-05-17, 09:24 PM
Solo is diligent in making sure budding heroes do not usurp his power.
That's like, Evil Overlording 101, man. Deal with it!

Signmaker
2008-05-17, 10:22 PM
Question(s).

What happens when Giamonk attempts to Grapple a caster with Freedom of Movement on? In spell or ring form, whichever you'd prefer.

Also, what happens when Giamonk is faced with caster-created obstacles? Grease, magic Walls, etc.

Lastly, I have qualms about the Gia strategy, as a whole. I get the "Run to die another day" strategy. I really do, because I'd rather not die trying to be the hero. However.

I sense alignment restrictions coming in to play eventually.

This affects more on the Evil-Neutral-Good scale, but I can see issues arising on the quite important Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful scale. After all, monks need to stay lawful to keep progressing. Somehow, sneaking around, fighting dirty, and potentially ditching your party members does not seem to reflect the lawful alignment. This is in reference to Gia's 'Waiting it out' and 'Escaping from battle' tactics.

Hopefully, I've created a new avenue of debate. Frankly, the old ones are getting redundant.

Aquillion
2008-05-17, 11:47 PM
Quoth DMfromTheAbyss:That's a perfectly valid playstyle, and if you're going to play a monk, it's not a bad route to go. But that's not the route that Giacomo is going. First of all, he needs his party around all the time, so he can't realistically do things like run out the clock on enemies or run away. Second, his total hide mod is only +31, which means there's still a pretty good chance of spells (or rangers, or rogues, or druids, or animals) spotting him, even if he doesn't do anything to give himself away, and if he does something like attack, then everyone's going to see him. A good core-only sneaky bastard build will have a minimum Hide check better than this monk's maximum.I don't think it is a valid playstyle, not the way Giacomo is doing it. The basic problem is that human casters are just not very common opponents in most settings; building something to kill human casters is inherently a terrible idea. Squishy Wizard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquishyWizard) applies to PCs, not NPCs; many monsterous casters are big ugly hard-to-grapple things with sorcerer casting.

Solo
2008-05-18, 12:06 AM
Hopefully, I've created a new avenue of debate. Frankly, the old ones are getting redundant.
Now only must we win on the old venues of debate, but on the new ones as well.

So, Giacomo, you see....


WHAT THE DEUCE!?

WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH EPIC BLACK MAGE!?!?

AWAY WITH THE MASK AND SHOW YOURSELF!

Rutee
2008-05-18, 12:16 AM
So you'll Munchaus him to victory? In such a victory, would you not become that which you hate?

Deepblue706
2008-05-18, 12:20 AM
Giacomo - I think myself and others owe you some gratitude for having made the effort to release this guide. It's obvious you've spent some time thinking about these arguments, and they can no doubt be helpful to new players who wish to play a monk, but are unsure of what kinds of tactics to use against NPC casters and developing PC casters whom they happen to oppose.

However, I do not believe that this work is a complete success, and do not think it accomplishes its primary task of showing us how to beat a "batman" wizard with consistency. Although, I do commend you in your attempt, and your willingness to argue points regarding certain classes, instead of blindly accept what others say to be true. I know of quite a few people who complacently accept certain "knowledge" as fact, without considering the evidence as much as is necessary to have any rightful belief. But, I think you need to let go - this idea of yours no longer appears to be a lone, glorious stand for truth, so much as someone who refuses to accept his many days of fighting have been for ultimately nothing.

I would have been more impressed if you had been focused on making a guide for monks that was not as centered upon "Beating Batman", as much as simply being useful in a variety of circumstances. Still, I think there's some very good information here - and I think you deserve some credit for that.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 01:43 AM
I would have been more impressed if you had been focused on making a guide for monks that was not as centered upon "Beating Batman", as much as simply being useful in a variety of circumstances. Still, I think there's some very good information here - and I think you deserve some credit for that.

But, Deepblue706. That's what I have done. The Joker I posted is not only about fighting casters. Actually, he can also fill the party roles of a scout and combatant.

Well guys, it's time for another interim comment of mine. Feel free to post, if you feel ignored etc. and I'll edit this post to put in additional comments.

OK, let's start, that could take some time, like I thought.

First of all, most of you apparently still do not get what the build is about, although I have to applaud lord_khaine and DMfromtheAbyss to provide me with rare exceptions here.

You see, the irony is that you all believe that UMD is a MAJOR FEATURE of this build. It is not. Some of you apparently feel you are so wrong that you try to reduce the build to it, while actually my guide showcases what you can do with ALL of the monk's abilities, even with slow fall. And hardly anyone comments on that. The only thing most of you do is jump on "AWWWW, he uses UMD just like we thought - what a stupid build."

I am a bit disappointed here.

That disappointment, though, is surpassed by far by the degree of disappointment I feel when some post non-core material and multiclasses for proving the monk is worthless (including my build) - so my full-hearted thanks go to Draz74. Although he is definitely not on my side, he shows a lot of fairness trying to calm the most odd posts around here.

Now, on to your questions and comments:

1) THAT GRAPPLING THING/VIABILTIY OF GRAPPLING. In particular @Reel on, Love.
You fail to see how grappling works and how encounters normally are assumed to be. A level 3 monk facing a CR 3 creature on his own? This is definitely not envisioned by the rules. Even so, the Joker at level 3 with +13outgrapples most of them. Try to follow the link I gave you and see the percentage of creatures who can outgrapple him at CR 3. And do not forget - those with special attacks will receive a -4 to each attack in a grapple.
Then you will not believe how rare it is that in a four-member party, the monk has to face several creatures at the same time that actually can outgrapple him. This is going to become more and more relevant at, what, level 9 for the group? (Remember that when there are several creatures - at least 5 to get a chance for the monk to be attacked by to in a four-member party, the CR of those creatuers gets reduced substantially!).
Now if you read more closely what I wrote in the build, level by level, you will notice that actually I commented on that somewhere there. At level 9, the joker tactics change from grappling to stealth (with the help of the eversmoking bottle you so hate, but more so with his superior scout skills and high move).
Then, on the enlarge thing. If you believe that 2 rounds of buff is a rarity, you will make caster players quite unhappy. You also wish to eliminate the ability of suprise for the group ALTHOUGH THERE ARE VARIOUS CLASSES WITH HIDE AND MOVE SILENTLY WHO OBVIOUSLY ARE MEANT TO CAPTIALISE ON THAT TACTICS! Incredible.
The monk with his class abilities and skill set WILL be able to get himself often enough rounds to buff.

And finally, what actually makes you all think that the monk needs to cast enlarge to be able to get rid of casters? The enlarge effect is only there to contribute outside the Joker's role. For the Joker's role, up to the AMF tactics, he does not even NEED UMD. UMD is only there to boost his general combat ability.
ALTHOUGH it sure comes in handy to have an own independent access for the silence spell, which in the hands of a stealthy character (yes, a rogue can and should use that, too) can be a real pain for casters.

2) "THIS IS A UMD BUILD, BUT NOT A MONK BUILD"
Huh, guess I answered that already, huh? :smallsmile: Seriously. Read the guide again and what I wrote on how to capitalise on all (ALL) of the monk's class abilities.

3) "UMD WILL NOT WORK"
But it will. You see, the point is not that the joker monk needs to use UMD in combat. I described at lengths alternatives to use UMD that will not risk losing 1 or 2 rounds doing nothing while in combat: touch spell attacks, long-term buff spells and heal spells.
As for an allegedly too low wand budget (again in particular @Reel On, Love): you again fail to see where the greatest bargaings are: in level 1 spells. They do most of what you need. Silence is THE great caster bane at 2nd level, and apart from that, you do not really need anything. And they cost 750 gold for 50 charges.
This means you can cast a 1st level spell a thousand times by level 10. Something tells me this is often enough. And you know that for this main power of UMD the question of partial wands is even completely irrelevant. We have been through this already. It's a question of whether the monk gets all these 1st level spells and enlarge at level 2 or 4.
Only at high levels, the joker build assumes that you can cast divine power and holy sword in almost every encounter.
Ah, and @Sam the Cleric: Rage does not equal enlarge. Rage gives you +2 to the grapple check, while enlarge gives you +5. A barbarian without continuous access to enlarge (and without UMD, it's quite likely) will be far behind a monk in grappling.

4) WHAT IS THIS MONK's PARTY ROLE?
Well, reading the introduction of that post, I quoted the PHB roles. The joker fills them all greatly. Added to this is its (non-caster unparalleled) role of beating batman.
In an iconic party of Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue he would likely replace the rogue (due to stealth tactics, unusual combat style and skills, and ability to deal with traps). NOTE: replace does not mean I think the monk is stronger in these roles, only that he can fill them in a different way.
A ranger is also quite close to the rogue's role, although he could also replace the fighter due to BAB for straight combat.

Now on to some individual posts

@Draz74 (and @Solo)
On the MAD issue.
Three suggestions
1) The joker monk above is a generalist. So of course I distribute the stats evenly. In case of a lord_khaine monk, I would focus entirely on Strength (see also his build). So no difference to other clases
2) Think about playing all classes with only 8 in all stats. Strangely, the monk will be entirely playable, while batman will not be.
3) Read again my examples in the MAD monk myth in the guide.

@Draz74
On the "what will DMs allow" issue.
The core rules assume certaint things. That all classes can UMD to some degree. That there are 50gp masterwork items providing +2 nicely stackable bonuses for the skills (thus making fixed, non-opposed DCs easier to reach). And the wbl.
A DM has every right to change that. He is probably right that a monk making jumps around with two wands in his hands is not exactly his idea of wuxia.
However, once he deviates from what the rules allow, then there are balance issues and he'll need to adjust for that.
And the fluff thing about a monk using UMD and buying stuff can be easily remedied with the following:
Think about the monk's UMD as some side of special ki ability (which stacks at the cost of 1 skill point less/level and appropriately reduced wealth). Between levels, the monk will go to his monastery and get tatoos/ki crystals etc. that will actually mean he can now cast enalrge 50 times before the next refreshment or fly, or blink or silence or what ever. You could actually build whole fantasy-like kung fu schools around that.
For instance,
THE STRENGHT SCHOOL
Level 2-4 Enlarge
Level 3-5 Bull's Strength
Level 6-8 xy...
Level 14-20 Divine Power
THE STEALTH SCHOOL
Level 2-4 Hide from Animals
Level 3-5 Silence
Level 6-8 Invisbility
etc...
THE DEATH COMBAT SCHOOL
Level 2-4 Chill Touch
Level 3-5 Ghoul Touch
Level 6-8 Vampiric Touch
etc.
THE SPELLBANE SCHOOL
Level 2-4 Obscuring Mist
Level 3-5 Silence
Level 6-8 See Invisibility/Faerie Fire
etc....

Actually - I like that very much, will expand that (ideas welcome!) and add into the general guide above.

@Chronos
THE JOKER NEEDS A PARTY?
Er...no, he does not. The monk of all classes is among the most self-reliant ones. Batman up to high levels cannot get by on his own, but the Joker definitely can.
UMD is actually there to showcase that he can also get spells WITHOUT pc casters (read again the guide above). With pearls and pc casters, though, he gets more (which the game obviously intended for GROUP playing rewards).

@Signmakerens:
You brougth up some good issues.
- Grapple vs FOM. Read again what I wrote in the guide above on the issue.
This is primarily addressed by actually changing from grappling tactics to something else by the time this spell may be encountered more often (besides huge monsters). At high levels, an AMF will negate FOM entirely.
- Alignment: How can a monk sneak around?
Well, even rogues are allowed lawful alignments. And the Joker build above may be closer to the idea of "Lawful Evil" which basically means you follow the ruleset which rewards the strongest. He could even continue to use holy sword spells while being evil, simply by emulating an alignment with UMD :smallbiggrin:
- how to get around walls and grease:
The jump skill is quite a good answer. And reflex saves. And btw, no - the monk will not have to save or balance twice. You only need that once - once successful, you'll be out of the grease area (simply jump out).
Vs more powerful/higher walls: a wand of blinking (the partial kind for emergency) will help you in mid-levels. Or you can smash the wall with your unarmed strikes (quite a lot of damage). Or walk through the fire wall and heal the damage later. Or wait out the wall (wall of force) for some rounds (your spellcraft skill lets you recognise what wall is going on).

Well, that's about it for now. Will add stuff when I find it. Solo's post deserves separate treatment....:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 01:49 AM
while actually my guide showcases what you can do with ALL of the monk's abilities, even with slow fall
You can do what a first level spell does at level 20. Whup de doo.
I suppose you could jump off a cliff at level 10 and escape unharmed, but so could anyone else with a Ring of Feather Fall.


2) Think about playing all classes with only 8 in all stats. Strangely, the monk will be entirely playable, while batman will not be.

A monk with an 8 in all stats will suck beyond all belief. Would you care to show us what a monk (or any character) with an 8 in all stats can do besides suck?



You see, the irony is that you all believe that UMD is a MAJOR FEATURE of this build. It is not.
...
For the Joker's role, up to the AMF tactics, he does not even NEED UMD.
You don't need UMD.... really now?

UMD is by far the largest investment for your character in terms of time, skill points, and money, yet you don't need it and it is not a major feature of the build?




ps. Seriously, does anyone know why Epic Black Mage has been replaced by Epic Fail Monk?

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 02:00 AM
Ah, Solo will be answered later, just found this one...


Anyway... Giacomo, it's possible to build a viable monk, but... this isn't it. First, I'm sorry, you passed up Stunning Fist; the choices for getting it are either first level monk or +8 BAB. Guess which one's steeper?

Read again what I wrote in the guide in the level 1 joker build section about this. It is a tough choice. But without improved grapple as a bonus feat, you simply will have to have a starting DEX of 15 (or you lose the feat enlarged), which costs a bit much from point buy.
Meanwhile, grappling is a great tactics for low-mid level against pretty much all opponetns. Stunning Fist, though, at low levels, is not such a great effect vs what it does at higher levels.


Even with Improved Grapple, the monk falls massively behind even full BAB classes in the grappling department fairly rapidly, and even further behind monsters.

Nope. Read the guide again. And check the SRD 3.5 for how small the percentage of monsters able to outgrapple the monk is until around levels 8-9.


For instance, let me take this barbarian (http://www.libriumarcana.com/RPG/public_profiler/view.php?id=12), who I have played from level one without a set build strategy (that is, he's a fully organic character) and compare to your level 15 point, since that's where he's at right now.

I guess this has already been commented on by Draz74.


Grapple. The main part of your build. His grapple modifier is higher than yours. You enlarge yourself? He rages; it's now even more.

No. Rage gives +2, enlarge gives +5 to grapple.


You bust out divine power? He busts out divine power and righteous might, thanks to runescarred berserker. Your purpose-built grapple monk is outclassed in this area on every level of buffing.

Runescarred? Are you telling me that you think UMD is not good but come up with something non-core that emulates it more easily? Wow.
And a barbarian does not get as much out of divine power, which has been shown already countless times, simply because the barbarian already HAS full BAB. Plus likely already a permanent STR-boost item, which is occupied in the monk's case with a monk's belt.


Stunning Fist. By this point, you've gotten Stunning Fist by taking the feat the hard way. Great. Rraskinar here has to roll a natural 1 to fail the save against it. Great going there, champ.

Yes, great going. Unfortunately at that level (which I also pointed out in my guide. Read it guys, READ IT!), the monk can do x numbe of attacks and actually force your babarian to do FIVE fort saves in one hit, if he so wishes. All of a sudden you sweat a bit more not to roll that "1". And what is worse: the next round there will be 4 more saves coming. And so on. And so on.


Use Magic Device. He doesn't have it, it's true. He doesn't need it for buffs, though, thanks to his runescars. Even discounting that, the magic devices you have to use aren't the sort that can stop him.

Yep. (see above).
And your babarian is not stopped dead in his tracks by total concealment? Hmmm.


Attack Bonus. Ow, man. Just ow. His attack bonus for his highest attack is a good eleven points higher when he's raging, which, barring some sort of effect forcing him to end his rage, is the only way he fights anything. He also has Power Attack. This is not a good combination for you.

You forget that meanwhile the monk also has full BAB thanks to divine power. So they are not that far apart. What is more, the monk has higher base damage which your babarian needs to equate with reducing his attack bonus for power attack. In core, that puts them around on more or less equal footing (although the barbarian, of course, has way more staying power in prolonged melee- which is OK because the monk has a different role).


Damage. Average damage for your monk is 46 when fully buffed. Great; Rraskinar is busting out upwards of 50 himself thanks to Power Attack with just rage (and his attack bonus is high enough to power attack for seven or eight while raging and still reliably hit), and it rushes up to near a hundred when he buffs himself. Unlike your monk, most of his damage is in static bonuses, so it's a lot more reliable than your mass of dice.

The monk is not fully buffed yet. And the mass of dice is quite reliable when you roll often enough...:smallsmile:


Hit Points. Yeah... He can one-hit the Giamonk all day long. And throw his body across the room just for the heck of it, thanks to the brutal surge weapon property, but that's just gravy.

Yeah, that's just non-core gravy.


Armor Class. You know, given that he's a barbarian, you'd expect your AC to be a lot higher than his, relatively speaking, than it actually is. :smalltongue: As it stands, he's actually harder to hit, due to the cloak of displacement.

While the Joker monk has blink up at that point (also providing +2 to hit the barbarian does not have).


Special Attacks. We've already covered grappling, but let's get into other things. The brutal surge weapon property allows him to...[describes non-core coolness].

I think that about covers all the basics, and I'm comparing a totally non-optimized organic build.

Yes, of course. Totally non-optimised.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 02:01 AM
So how come, Giacomo, you've never taken anyone up on the offer to be in an adventuring party for an actual test of your hypothesis?

Gorbash
2008-05-18, 02:08 AM
I love this thread so much, I want to have sex with it.

Solo
2008-05-18, 02:09 AM
Squick.


And as for you, avatar man, I demand you return Epic Black Mage to me now, or suffer my wrath. Solo will not be bested by Epic Fail Monk!

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-18, 02:19 AM
Squick.


And as for you, avatar man, I demand you return Epic Black Mage to me now, or suffer my wrath. Solo will not be bested by Epic Fail Monk!

It is pretty funny for what it's worth.

Solo
2008-05-18, 02:27 AM
It is pretty funny for what it's worth.

You'll be the first to die.

kpenguin
2008-05-18, 02:27 AM
This thread is friggin' awesome.

The great posters of the Gaming Board, divided in their beliefs and gaming philosophies, have united to stop a dark terror that threatens to destroy the world of optimization as we know it. Their fellowship is truly an inspiration to us all.

Myshlaevsky
2008-05-18, 02:32 AM
Maybe Epic Fail Monk was under that robe all along....

Still, he does look strangely attractive.

Solo
2008-05-18, 02:34 AM
This thread is friggin' awesome.

The great posters of the Gaming Board, divided in their beliefs and gaming philosophies, have united to stop a dark terror that threatens to destroy the world of optimization as we know it. Their fellowship is truly an inspiration to us all.

The Fellowship.... of the Zing?

Admiral Squish
2008-05-18, 02:38 AM
If we all agree, why are we still here? Honestly.

kpenguin
2008-05-18, 02:43 AM
If we all agree, why are we still here? Honestly.

Ah, but like any adventuring party, there is a lot of disagreement. You must all learn to live and work together in order to stand united and banish the menace via the power of teamwork/friendship/etc.

Reinboom
2008-05-18, 02:43 AM
Yes, I hear that all the time. I used polymorph, leadership, diplomacy, the eversmoking bottle/blind-fight, UMD, AMF, Silence, Divine Power, spellstaff and masterwork items and all the time I get to hear is "naw, this does not show monks are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.." Very tiring.

Gah, reading through this whole thing made me hiccup on this one statement.
Specifically.

Because, here.. I'll build a core class, using... Half-Elf, y'know, it's considered weak.
Using nearly 1/6th wealth by level. Ah, heck, let's make it even more ridiculous. This poor soul rolled 12s across the board. Above average at everything, but... is good really at nothing.
Actually, he's a commoner too.

So here's the ECL 10 build:
Half-Elf
Commoner 10

Has 1 item in his whole career, saved up all his poor funds to purchase this specific candle: A candle of invocation!
Summon Efreeti. Repeat.

Voila, and hey don't give me nothing about "naw, this does not show commoners are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.."

---
Yes, it's an extreme example. However, it shows the game is not a perfect construct and that yes - individual works can snap.
Don't make me diplomacy or basket weave you to death.

Admiral Squish
2008-05-18, 02:48 AM
Ah, but like any adventuring party, there is a lot of disagreement. You must all learn to live and work together in order to stand united and banish the menace via the power of teamwork/friendship/etc.

I probably shouldn't, but I feel I must.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Talic
2008-05-18, 02:50 AM
Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo’s Guide to Monks
Making the Most of What you Have (When Casters Believe What They Have Is Already Ridiculously Good)
Dissasembly commence.

As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the goddamn Joker!Profanity aside, I'd appreciate you not defame the world's greatest supervillain in a cheap attempt in overcoming wizards. Class balance is firstly, not about PvP. Logicninja's guide hailed to the many functional uses wizards have in a party. Your guide seems to be designed to be a "X class is better tha Y class", which on its very nature, removes it from the realm of a practical guide, and moves it to the realm of "biased class wars".


1. Key Insights on Giamonk strategy (and: what the Joker would say….)

1) “Where does he get those wonderful toys?” – The Joker
Be prepared for a harsh truth: Magic is cheap in core 3.5. And the “Giamonk” (courtesy Kurald Galain) intends to make full use of it. In that way, he is quite close to the classic gish…
The Batman may think he is special, but in a magic world as envisioned in the core 3.5 rules, everyone will want to have magic. And everyone gets it, thanks to four major goodies for all classesYup. Everyone does. Even the wizard. Let's see your methods.

- fellow pc casting. This is the way assumed by the game (for instance, the enlarge spell has almost no use for the sorcerer or wizard, but it is greatly helpful for fighting characters). In many instances, though, the non-caster or monk needs to be on his own..Your exact example is of limited usefulness to monks at level 20, as they are no longer legal targets. Barbarians, however, can still make full use of Enlarge Person. However... Any guide that starts by stating that it can be made viable or better by relying on other classes is doing little to support the claim that it is powerful on its own. This actually seems like a argument for casters, in that their actions and spells can be of great use to this melee class. Thus, the caster is providing usefulness to the fighting class. Actually, this is a key concept of the batman build. Thank you for illustrating it so well.
- npc casting (this could be helped by, but does not need the leadership feat)NPC casting is primarily limited to out of hazardous situations (as PC NPC spellcasting services in the SRD are negotiated for hazardous situations, and the default answer is "no".). Further, you have to go to them, which severely increases your dependence on solid supply lines/bases of resupply.
- wealth by level guidelines and thus, permanent magic itemsWhich all characters get, regardless of class. using many of these items requires the most precious commodity of all, more valuable than any gold coin... Actions. We'll get to that in a moment.
- Use Magic Device (UMD), either cross-class or class. It does not really matter, since the greatest bargains, the wands simulating ALL 1-4 spell levels are safely usable with just a UMD score of +19. And even one rank of UMD and total bonus of +0 will allow you to eventually activate a wand…only a “1” rolled without +19 UMD will mean stopping to use that item for the day, but you could carry several for the same effect, lowering your risk greatly. Wands are the cheapest way for non-casters to obtain non-pc buffs. Based on the usual casting and spell levels of arcane and divine spells, level 1 spells, it is 15 gp per use, for level 2 spells 90 gp, for level 3 spells 225 gp and for level 4 spells 420 gp.

Great level 1-4 spells to get in store (some are range: personal)

Level 1: Enlarge, Cure Lights Wounds, Chill Touch (also helps vs low-level undead; better than shocking grasp due to the STR damage potential), Faerie Fire (great cheap anti-invisibility tactics for all levels), Mage Armour (though you should preferably get that with your 1st level pearl of power from a party arcane caster or npc for longer duration), Bless Weapon (good for improved critical- unarmed strike builds), Obscuring Mist (great cheap low-level control vs missile and spell attacks), Shillelagh (the staff is a monk weapon, so you can flurry with it – and it will deal 3d6+1 damage when you are enlarged, and it counts as a magic weapon)
Level 2: Silence (the poor man’s AMF, remarkably effective). Good hour/lvl buffs are darkvision and false life. Then possibly bull’s strength (for grapple boost) and heroism (from the bard list, lasts 40 minutes then) and ghoul touch (allowing no save vs the parlysis effect)
Basically, for touch attacks at first and second level, chill touch and ghoul touch are the most effective, while shocking grasp and touch of idiocy (possibly shutting down enemy spell casting without a save) are more stylish for a true “Joker”.
Level 3: Fly, Blink
Level 4: Divine Power, Holy Sword
Will update as soon as I get new ideas!

Herein lies the rub. Let's go with the numbers now. For monks, UMD is cross class. Thus, if a human monk is getting max ranks in this skill, with 1 of his 2 feats being for skill focus:UMD, and an 18 starting charisma (pretty optimal, for core)... The following is true:
{table=header]Level | Bonus | Max possible | 50% success | 75% success | 100% success
1 | +9 | 29 | 20 | 15 | 10
2 | +9 | 29 | 20 | 15 | 10
3 | +10 | 30 | 21 | 16 | 11
4 | +10 | 30 | 21 | 16 | 11
5 | +11 | 31 | 22 | 17 | 12
6 | +11 | 31 | 22 | 17 | 12
7 | +12 | 32 | 23 | 18 | 13
8 | +12 | 32 | 23 | 18 | 13
9 | +13 | 33 | 24 | 19 | 14
10 | +13 | 33 | 24 | 19 | 14
11 | +14 | 34 | 25 | 20 | 15
12 | +14 | 34 | 25 | 20 | 15
13 | +15 | 35 | 26 | 21 | 16
14 | +15 | 35 | 26 | 21 | 16
15 | +16 | 36 | 27 | 22 | 17
16 | +16 | 36 | 27 | 22 | 17
17 | +17 | 37 | 28 | 23 | 18
18 | +17 | 37 | 28 | 23 | 18
19 | +18 | 38 | 29 | 24 | 19
20 | +18 | 38 | 29 | 24 | 19[/table]
The Monk player will never, at level 20, with an 18 charisma and skill focus, have a 100% chance at activating a wand. NEVER. That means, to be guaranteed to activate a wand of Enlarge PERSON, then you have to be at a level where it will no longer work on you. You have a chance to use it at level 1, yes... Heck, when fully optimized like this, you have a 50% chance. Which means when you use the wand, you will need to draw it, and then spend 2 of your most valuable resources, on average, Standard Actions, to use it. At level 11, you have a 75% chance, with an 18 charisma and skill focus, and 33% of your total class skill points in UMD. This means that you'll usually get your buff off.

Granted, I'll give you some of your spells as viable, with less. 10 charisma, skill focus (UMD), and Max ranks... That gives you a +5 at Level 1, and a good chance of 5-6 uses of a wand before failure (30% success). This would be useful for out of battle spells, general usefulness things. Like cure light wounds, and, in certain key situations, spells with a duration of hours per level or better. The advantage casters have in this situation is that they get spaces for these kind of spells, absolutely free of charge, with little to no chance of failure chance, and they recover daily. Hence why Batman has enhanced versatility with utility spells.


Additionally, while you can for a long while not safely activate a wand in one round (meaning in combat you often cannot use it reasonably), you can still make use of:
- longer-lasting buff spells (10 mins/lvl & up)
- short-lasting buff spells when you have the opportunity to buff up before combat (say, enlarge wand)
- instantaneous spells usable between combat without stress (healing, research)
- touch spells with “holding the charge” use. This is something where the non-casters would even surpass the casters since they 1) have better hitting chances and 2) they most often do not cast spells in between, ending “the charge”. Note that, at level 20, you will still not have 100% chance to activate. "A long while" is something of an understatement. However, if you are going in an area of exceptional danger, I can see the use of a buff that has a total duration of 1 hour or greater (only available in hour/level buffs for wands at standard caster levels). I can also see spells where charges can be held, though if this is the case, the monk may not touch anything. He can't open doors, draw items, change items from one hand to the other, pat a friend on the back, shake a hand, enter or exit different mediums(such as water), swing across a ravine by rope, climb up a cliff by rope, squeeze through a cave in, etc etc etc. In other words, any ability that requires the monk touch anything is simply off limits, greatly mitigating the monk's usefulness.

Some of the great things for a monk using wands:
- you can grapple while using/holding wands (even in both hands)
- you can do all your unarmed strikes while holding wands (even in both hands)
Maybe and yes. Grapple is an attack that does require some method of grabbing. If your legs are otherwise occupied, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to disallow that. Unarmed strikes are perfectly fine. This does risk multiple items highly vulnerable to sunder. Not always the best option. And bear in mind, until level 11, you have less than a 75% chance to use those wands, and are unable to use more than 1 per round. Also, out of combat, many of a monk's key skills rely on free hands. WBL is designed to shore up weaknesses and provide useful abilities. Not to make you combat viable in the first place.

This basically gets you everything you need. For the higher spell levels, either get
- scrolls or
- other casters casting (via npc spellcasters, cohort spellcasters or team member spellcasters).
If all fails, level the playing field, either with AMF or lower-level effects (yes, there are some, see below).
Plus, there are some fairly cheap single spells that can shut down the effects of whole schools of magic:
- mind blank (enchantment, divination)
- true seeing (illusions, excepting the real part of shadow magic)
- death ward (necromancy)
- wall of force (all conjuration/evocation/necromancy/transmutation/phantasm/shadow attacks)
Some of those are available in existing magic items (true seeing, wall of force, death ward), some could be available as custom items (explicit DM’s approval).NPC spellcasters again, default to "no", and are showing how another class is useful to YOU, not how you are useful. As for scrolls... See the following:
{table=header]Spell Level | DC | Level possible | Level 50% | Level 75% | Level 100%
0 and 1 | 21 | 1 | 3 | 13 | Epic
2 | 23 | 1 | 7 | 17 | Epic
3 | 25 | 1 | 11 | Epic | Epic
4 | 27 | 1 | 15 | Epic | Epic
5 | 29 | 1 | 19 | Epic | Epic
6 | 31 | 5 | Epic | Epic | Epic
7 | 33 | 9 | Epic | Epic | Epic
8 | 35 | 13 | Epic | Epic | Epic
9 | 37 | 17 | Epic | Epic | Epic[/table]Thus, an 18 charisma monk with skill focus (UMD) and 33% of class granted skill points in UMD, will be able to activate a level 1 scroll 75% of the time at level 13. A level 2 scroll? Level 17. Anything higher? You're looking at epic levels. You'll get a 50/50 shot up to level 5 by level 19. Note that UMD activation has no mishap, but if you fail with a 1, you have to wait a day to try again. That means that at level 13, a level 8 scroll has as much chance of failure as success. At level 17, a level 9 has that distinction, whereas you'll fail on the level 8 spells for a day 1 out of every 3-4 times you succeeed. Again, good for utility buffs, such as water breathing, detect magic, identify, and the like, but certainly not for combat spells, at all. Scrolls for a UMD mage, are, at best, pre-battle buffs for key fights, if they have a decent duration. I'd say, at least 10 rounds/level (as they'll typically have minimum caster level, ensuring that even with 10 rounds, you'll need to be quick, really quick, to get something off reliably. Silence could be good here as an occasional use. Still, you're usually better off with a single pearl of power so that you can have 1 key fight every day, rather than 1 here and there. If you want a low level boost in battle, consider investing (out of core) in a Circlet of rapid casting for your wizard/sorceror/cleric/druid friend. Thus, he can get you most of the level 1-4 buffs without impacting his other actions in a round. Again, this showcases how useful those casters are to you... Not the other way around.


Make use of one of the biggest balancing insights of the game: magic is cheap, and can counter magic easily! Batman got the most recent computer technology…eh spell innovation? Well, get the same stuff cheap!The problem with this is... Magic's really not that cheap. Even the level 1 wand with 50 charges is over 10% of your WBL until level 5, and is more than the allocated disposable WBL until level 9. Assuming 1 use each fight? It's equal to disposable WBL at level 5. Disposable WBL is the difference between the average awarded treasure and the WBL gains between levels. As it's not OGL, I can't post any tables here, unfortunately. What does this mean? At level 5, if you get a Wand of Enlarge Person, that is all of your disposable WBL for level 5... about 80% of disposable WBL for level 6. About 40% of disposable WBL for level 7. About 10% of disposable WBL for level 8. That one purchase has occupied all of that, assuming 14 combat encounters per level, and average treasure rewards per encounter, along with 1 charge used for each encounter. That one wand is a major investment at level 5. At level 7 and 8, when it's running out? Now it's less of an expenditure, though you'll only get 8 charges out of it during level 8. So, this Combat spell, with a duration of 10 rounds, at levels 5 and 6, represent most of your disposable WBL, and have a 60% chance of successful activation, with a 5% catastrophic failure chance. At levels 7 and 8, you have a 65% chance. (assuming, again, 18 charisma, skill focus in UMD, and 33% base skill points every level on UMD)

So here, in a nutshell, are the two Giamonk principles:
1. Get spells that synergise greatly with the monk abilites
2. Get items that synergise greatly with the monk abilitiesShowed how wands and scrolls, the two useful items listed, are misrepresented as to their utility, and spells only showcase the usefulness of the caster that you're depending on for them, rather than the monk. Check. Also, showed that the monk is going to be whiffing in combat with failed UMD's quite often. Failed UMD = wasted actions. On a round you fail a UMD, you have your base move, and that's pretty much it. You have no offensive contribution, and little skill contribution to the party. Actions are the main currency.

Though it is possible to spend more than your disposable WBL on disposable items, such as Wands and Scrolls, doing so will cause your WBL to fall behind the rest of the party, as you're spending into your permanent wealth on things you'll use and destroy.

Thus, it's been shown that by disposable WBL, the UMD monk is certainly not very viable before level 5, and very limited in UMD after that. If he purchases a wand at level 5, a scroll at level 6 (level 1 only), another wand (level 1) at level 7, and 6 scrolls (level 1, if level 2, 3 scrolls) at level 8. The amount of one shot items you have are limited. Quite a bit moreso than the enounters.

This is a refutation of one of the core principles of the UMD monk. UMD at low levels.

As for the rest? The majority of the concept of the post is a direct confrontation between classes, and as such, is limited in usefulness for practical character development. Expect a monk guide from me focusing on monk utility, versatility, and usefulness later on. It's been in the works for about a week, and will attempt to showcase the strengths of the monk class, giving options for useful directions to take it, without focusing on the individual comparisons between classes that take away from the usefulness of such a guide. Expect it to be a helpful resource for those who like the concept of the monk, and would like to try one.

Currently, it has planned:

Theme and principle of the monk class.
Different appealing aspects
Options for focusing and bringing out the best in these
Typical weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the class
Options for defending and protecting those weaknesses
Typical roles the monk can fill in the party
Class Synergy, and the usefulness of monk when a short term dip or when
using other classes to support the monk theme.

Solo
2008-05-18, 02:51 AM
Enough! Cast Away The Mask And Show Yourself, Vile Coward! Defile My Avatar Space No Longer!!!!

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 02:52 AM
OK, I'll try to disprove some of Reel On, Love's great CR 3 grapplers bit by bit, and first...


How do you use a "run away and wait out buffs" tactic in a party? Where do you run to? Why won't the spellcaster chase the party?

Well, if in a party someone does not have the means to make a quick escape (say, the usual 20ft move fighter tank), then that party better get a means for that member to be able to - or else the party is dead (if they prefer to stay with that party member and get cut down).


What makes you think you're more likely to fight *under*-CR enemies than *over*-CR? Performance against low-CR creatures is totally irrelevant, because anyone can blow through them.

Er..the DMG encounter guidelines?


At level 2, you have an AC of 14. I'm pretty sure this is a federal crime. While you're grappling, you can't move around--monsters can walk up to you and bury their appendage of choice in your kidney.

AC 14 a federal crime? Oh well, poor batman. In jail before getting a single spell off :smallsmile:


Now, some CR 3 monsters (note that at level 3 your grapple is only +1 over level 2):

Yes, and it is +13. In case the enlarge is not up, exactly the creatures you quoted likely have trouble spotting the hiding monk.
And "some CR 3" monsters mean they are just a few out of a hundred or so of CR 1/2 - CR 3 creatures normally faced by a party.

Allip: you want to grapple an Allip? Really?

Oh, a tough one. Grappling an incorporal creature usually is not a good idea, true. Something tells me all classes would have a difficult time here - although the monk likely has the highest touch AC and has the best chance to make the will save (it is an enchantment effect). The monk could deal with it by having magic weapon his fist and a chill touch way before. Then on a hit, the allip might flee...
Otherwise, it just gets beaten to a pulp by the fists turned magic weapon, since the monk has a higher attack bonus while the Allip will only hit him with a 45% chance and deal WIS damage, of which the monk happens to have quite a few points. Next.

Animated Object, Large: I've never seen one of those used, but whatever. Grapple of +10. You *have* to be Enlarged for this.

Er...yes. Which is the whole point about UMD Enlarge. Next.

Air Elemental, Medium: at a grapple of -3, I'm pretty sure anyone can outgrapple this thing. Of course, you have to grab it first, and it has Flyby Attack, a 100-foot fly speed, and a touch AC of 14 (meaning you need to roll an 11+ to grab it in the first place).

In the "first" place? Well, yes, there is an AoO before the elemental even reaches the Joker monk. And then, the monk can simply ready the attack to when the elemental reaches him. Yep, the elemental is toast. Next.

Ankheg: +12 grapple. Gotta be enlarged to even stand a chance, and then it has a higher score.

Yes. You see, the joker wins again. And with +13 the higher STR score does not matter. Next.

Juvenile Arrowhawk: another monster I've never seen, but it has a ranged attack and a fly speed. Grappling is totally irrelevant and useless.

Ready attack to when it's near. If it does not wish to go melee, then just hide or seek cover (wand of obscuring mist anyone?). Or jump at it when there's a confined space. It's an outsider, so chances are the BBEG at that level may have conjured it in his lab.

Assassin Vine: I had a low-level rogue nearly killed by one of these once. Grapple of +12, Constrict, etc. gotta be enlarged to even stand a chance.

Yes. And...btw with +13 grapple it is not "even stand a chance" but "superior in grapple and likely win".

Wyrmlings: you can grapple these, I guess... except they have a fly speed and a breath weapon to strafe with.

Yes, but will they go first? :smallsmile: And their touch AC is cute.

Centaur: grapple of +12 again, and just hope there's only 1, a full attack from this thing will destroy your grappling, AC-12 (no DEX) ass.

+12 again means the joker monk with +13 wins again. If there are 2 of these, then this encounter is completely out of proportion (come on, Reel on Love, 2 CR 3 creatures vs 1 Joker Monk. My build is strong, but not that strong...:smallsmile:). Luckily, the joker monk can simply move silently around them (they have a listen/spot +3 vs the monk's move silently/hide +8; add in any distance penalites on top).

Cockatrice: never seen it used (probably because of the petrification). It does have a fly speed, though.

Yes, and a lower initiative, a low AC (so the joker could use his crossbow on it), is dumb as a doorknob and the Joker knows a lot about it thanks to knowledge-arcane.

Derro: SLAs, sneakiness, Darkness at will. good to grapple if you can catch them; odds are you get hit by SLAs and poisoned bolts first.

Touch AC 13, low speed - you are getting desperate. With an obscuring mist, their ranged sneak attack is moot, while the Joker pinpoints and grapples the derro (if they attack, they are not exactly moving silently).

Deinonychus: grapple of +7. Finally, something you can *approximately* match in a grapple without Enlarge.

Yep. It's a typical example of the majority of creatures by CR 3.

Dire Ape: grapple of +13. Bad idea.

Hmm -this is a tough one, the first with an even grapple score. Evenly matched. Well, the Joker allows the Ape the grapple, and then it loses its DEX bonus vs what the party does. (CR 3 is the usual encounter for 4 party members).
This now means like - what ONE creature of all creaturs up to that level?

Dire Wolf: grapple of +15!

Ah no, here is a second one. Wait...what did I write again in the guide about the most common stronger grapplers? Something about their INT scores...or them being animal and easiyl negated with a hide from animals effect? Yes, something like that.

Doppelganger: grapple of +5, but *killing* one of these things? It's easy. *Discovering* them, now... that's the big part More of a social challenge than a combat one.

Yes. So this is irrelevant for deciding whether grappling at that level is a good COMBAT tactics.

Dryad: you're going to punch a Dryad in the face? What are you, some kind of jerk? (If you are, it's grappleable, but it has SLAs a-plenty.)

It does. And they do what, target the monk's +7 save against it? Good luck. The monk grapple flurries and kills it in one round.

Giant Eagle: Fly Speed, Flyby Attack, and a +12 Grapple to boot! You lose.

Er...how? Again: ready attack, AoO AND +13 grapple. Ah...and it's ... AN ANIMAL!

Earth Elemental, Medium: you win this one.

Yep, like vs all the others.

Ethereal Filcher: uh, wtf? But... it just pops back to the ethereal plane I guess.

Yes. But if it wishes to fight, then it loses.

Ethereal Marauder: same. Can't hold it. Pops in, hits, pops back.

Ready grapple.

Ettercap: if you can get past the webs, sure. But at that point it's feeble for anyone.

Get out a torch and burn its web.

Fire Elemental, medium: you don't want to grab a fire elemental.

Maybe with a wand of endure elements or pc cleric buff you want to?

Formian Warrior: Formians don't freaking count. But if they did, you could grapple it.

?

Violet Fungus: Again, wtf? The poison is the real threat here. You shouldn't get close.

If it wishes to bite in a grapple, it gets a -4 to hit. And the poison damage is negligble, should the monk not make his good fort save.

Ghast: you get to make multiple saves against Stench and paralysis! Whee! Hang back and let people with bows take this one.

Archers no doubt are better at some things - would be horrible if it were not so! :smallsmile:
Similarly to the fungus, though the special attacks will be delived only at a -4 in a grapple.

Giant Ant, Queen: +10. Acid Sting. Doesn't count, though (who the hell has their level 2/3 party fight giant ants? That's just dumb).

Yep, dumb. And the joker monk would still win.

Giant Preying Mantis: +11, sneaky.

Sneaky and losing the grapple. Next.

Giant Wasp: +11, but you've got to be kidding.

Yep! :smallcool:

Grick: DR 10/magic. You are screwed until level 4.

And at level 4, the monk is the first from his class abilities to be able to hit it in melee. Or he gets a wand of magic weapon enchantment. Then the Grick is toast.

Hell Hound: fire breath, which it can use in a grapple. On the upside, you have Evasion. On the downside, you'll fail like 40% of the time. I suppose grappling it isn't a bad idea.

Yes, thank you!

Howler: +15, quills, ugh. You lose.

Now here, truly, you have come up at long last with a CR 3 creature that the joker monk would not grapple. Rather, he'd try his chances with a shillelagh staff (still enlarged) and do 3d6+4 damage per hit, possibly in a flurry, against it. And hope he does not stand alone against it...:smallsmile:

Lion: +12, Rakes, will likely Pounce you. OTOH, you should grapple it anyway, because wrestling a lion is freaking awesome.

Yes, this is the awesomeness that is the joker. He wins - the lion'S charge and pounce is stopped dead in its tracks by the AoO of the enlarged monk (who uses it to grapple). No pounce, sorry. :smallsmile:

Werewolf: you'd win, but, DR.

Yep.


I'm gonna stop here. I can cover the rest of them if you really want.
But so far, at level 2/3, the SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY of monsters out there aren't at any disadvantage against the monk's grappling, even when he is enlarged. A good number are even at an advantage. Very few are truly at a disadvantage.
Meleeing these things is easier. Well, for the members of the party competent in melee, which doesn't include you.

Well, as you see, the joker monk is way more effective than you gave him credit. And you can add whatever other CR creature you want - chances are that the Howler is rare exception to the rule. That creature can knock out everyone, including a wizard at much higher levels (it can charge with an initiative of +7 from 120 ft away!!!!)
I hope also that the other posters will see how the joker monk works in practice this way, in particular at low-mid levels.

- Giaocmo

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-18, 02:52 AM
This thread is friggin' awesome.

The great posters of the Gaming Board, divided in their beliefs and gaming philosophies, have united to stop a dark terror that threatens to destroy the world of optimization as we know it.
Actually, now they have.

I just haven't bothered to post yet because others have been doing a perfectly fine job of refuting this.

Solo
2008-05-18, 02:56 AM
AC 14 a federal crime? Oh well, poor batman. In jail before getting a single spell off
14 Dex and Mage Armor.

16 AC, 2 higher than your monk's venerated 14 AC by the subtractive property of mathamatics.



Actually, now they have.
We're missing CoV, but only cause his Internet is broken.

kpenguin
2008-05-18, 03:12 AM
Actually, now they have.

I just haven't bothered to post yet because others have been doing a perfectly fine job of refuting this.

And another answers the call for justice.

Hmmm... who do we still have missing?

Perhaps we should have that guy who admires this guy:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/kpenguin222/Napoleon.gif

show up and add one of his slightly incomprehensible but well-thought out posts to the weapons battery.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-18, 03:13 AM
Enough! Cast Away The Mask And Show Yourself, Vile Coward! Defile My Avatar Space No Longer!!!!

It's funny because he's dead. (http://nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041111)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-18, 03:18 AM
OK, I'll try to disprove some of Reel On, Love's great CR 3 grapplers bit by bit, and first...

Ogre! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm) Consider yourself disproven!

Solo
2008-05-18, 03:21 AM
It's funny because he's dead. (http://nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=041111)

Then will you kindly explain how this abomination is tainting my account, from beyond the grave, no less?

Talic
2008-05-18, 03:34 AM
Oh, I'm in now. Was just having IRL issues (for those unfamiliar, IRL is a fancy way of saying AFK). Now, I've noticed, and I'll do what I do best. Completely refute the UMD side of the build. Note that, for a +13 to grapple, at level 3, we need the following:

+3 Str, +2 BAB, +4 Size, +4 Improved Grapple.

Note that, with a 14 Str (+2 enlarged) and an 18 cha, he has a less than optimal chance of dropping a wand bomb for enlarge at level 3 (also, let's not forget that the wand is 29% of total WBL, or all disposable WBL up to level 6... Make it last, buddy... Make it last). By my last post, if he has the following, he'll have a 55% chance:

Max ranks in UMD (equivalent to 33% of class granted skill points)
18 Charisma
Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)

All of that, at level 3, will grant a 55% chance to use a Wand of enlarge. If a scroll of enlarge, the above will grant a 50% chance of use.

The failure of this will likely break whatever hide you had, resulting in fully 50% of fights, even if you start fully hidden every time, the monster will see you before you're enlarged. That will be a +8 grapple starting in half your fights. In that grapple, you've got a 55% or so chance of getting off the wand, with a DC 20 concentration check (45% chance with max ranks), and no chance on the scroll. Thus, in a grapple, your odds of getting off the enlarge to get to parity drop to 24.75%. Again, the monster can wail on you.

Now half the time, you've got a near certainty of getting hit 2-3 times before the party drops the critter. If your only contribution to the fight is to expertly block the enemy's fists and claws with your soft tender spots...

Then you're not contributing much more than anything with D8 hd and +2 con mod can do.

The other half, in fairness, you'll go back and forth, likely dealing as good as you're getting.

Now, as for all classes have a hard time vs incorporeal? Level 3 mage has Magic missile. Cleric has spiritual weapon. Both are low level staple spells. Most melee classes will, granted. But you yourself opened the door to caster competition when you posted that rubbish on page 1, Giacomo.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-18, 03:42 AM
Well, if in a party someone does not have the means to make a quick escape (say, the usual 20ft move fighter tank), then that party better get a means for that member to be able to - or else the party is dead (if they prefer to stay with that party member and get cut down).
THE PARTY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO RUN!!! If that's your strategy, my current Warblade would kick you from the party after the first fight. The Beguiler would probably kill you in your sleep afterwards, and the CG Sorcerer would probably help him. I won't even mention what the Ninja would do. You're part of a team, and your actions need to be taken based on what the team needs. Even the "God guide" said a lot of times that the meatshield and glass cannon would feel like they won the encounter with his tactics, and to let them, because, after all, you're god, and you can let the mortals have their glory. You know about it, and that's what matters. The monk tactics you've listed wouldn't be beneficial to a party:
"Hey, caster, gimme a buff or 2, I need them to be effective."
*he buffs you, spending his class abilities*
"Ohsh-This enemy is buffed, let's retreat and wait it out"
"It's faster than the rest of us! We can't, we'll have to fight!"
"Screw you guys" *flees*

In all honesty, the monk makes a great solo opponent for the party. As a DM, you can build a bit Schroedinger, it can survive and escape repeatedly, but it's not likely to kill any of the PCs with it's damage output, so it can be a great recurring Dragon. However, in a party, "survive" isn't enough to get you 1/4th of the loot. You have to contribute to do that. Great saves and a high move speed can help someone make it through anything, but in a party enviroment, you have to stick together, and the monk can't do much to help actually "defeat" an encounter, just to escape it.

lord_khaine
2008-05-18, 03:44 AM
Then will you kindly explain how this abomination is tainting my account, from beyond the grave, no less?

clearly this great hero has risen from the grave to help defend the name of all good monks!


All of that, at level 3, will grant a 55% chance to use a Wand of enlarge. If a scroll of enlarge, the above will grant a 50% chance of use.

at this level potions of enlarge are dirt cheap, and work 100% of the time.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 03:46 AM
Dissasembly commence..

Disassembly of Talic's post commence...:smallsmile:

Profanity aside, I'd appreciate you not defame the world's greatest supervillain in a cheap attempt in overcoming wizards.

Er...where in my post did I do that? The logicninja's guide is great, but somehow led many posters around here to develop some strange notions about the game; what is possible, and what not, and above all, that wizards are way more powerful than anyone else. And this monk's can help to remedy that.

Class balance is firstly, not about PvP.

Where in that guide did I say anything about PvP? There are npc casters, you know. This monk CAN be taken with some minor modifications to be a good pvp duel character, in particular against casters.
In what you write here and in the following below you clearly signal that you 1) did not read my guide completely and 2) what you read you did with a preset idea of how I allegedly argue and what I allegedly wish to do.

Logicninja's guide hailed to the many functional uses wizards have in a party. Your guide seems to be designed to be a "X class is better tha Y class", which on its very nature, removes it from the realm of a practical guide, and moves it to the realm of "biased class wars".

No, actually you and other posters often post with a notion of "biased class wars." You do challenges to ridicule monks and then refuse to give up your rules perceptions even when the evidence is waved in front of you.
THIS guide is a DEFENSE, not an ATTACK on other classes. It should be fairly obvious.

Yup. Everyone does. Even the wizard. Let's see your methods.Your exact example is of limited usefulness to monks at level 20, as they are no longer legal targets.

WHAT? You reduce the viability of the UMD concept to the little detail that at level 20 (where hardly anyone ever ventures) one (1!) spell can no longer be used by a monk? Bearing in mind that 1) game assumes by that level other methods to get larger and 2) even if morph is frowned upon this includes other things. This is ridiculous to the extreme.

Barbarians, however, can still make full use of Enlarge Person.

And the monk with a level 20 character wbl budget can use rightuous might (as the barbarian). And read again what I wrote about when to use grappling tactics until what level and when not.

However... Any guide that starts by stating that it can be made viable or better by relying on other classes is doing little to support the claim that it is powerful on its own. ´

Yep. I see all the fighter players happily giving back their magic weapons (they were created by spellcasters, after all) and get reduced to nothing by an allip.

This actually seems like a argument for casters, in that their actions and spells can be of great use to this melee class. Thus, the caster is providing usefulness to the fighting class.

And the non-caster class is providing the caster class with the permanent protection, that they, with their only limited duration magic, cannot emulate (only at much, much higher levels, where they will still need to have the non-caster abilities around in case their magic is countered/foiled in one of the many, many ways that I described in the guide. Read it, you'll be surprised.
But read the guide's section on the typical monk myth - you just brought up one again.

Actually, this is a key concept of the batman build. Thank you for illustrating it so well.NPC casting is primarily limited to out of hazardous situations (as PC NPC spellcasting services in the SRD are negotiated for hazardous situations, and the default answer is "no".). Further, you have to go to them, which severely increases your dependence on solid supply lines/bases of resupply.Which all characters get, regardless of class. using many of these items requires the most precious commodity of all, more valuable than any gold coin... Actions. We'll get to that in a moment. Herein lies the rub. Let's go with the numbers now. For monks, UMD is cross class. Thus, if a human monk is getting max ranks in this skill, with 1 of his 2 feats being for skill focus:UMD, and an 18 starting charisma (pretty optimal, for core)... The following is true:

Which proves you have not read the guide. Your numbers may be correct, but UMD can be reached for the critical +19 level much earlier.

The Monk player will never, at level 20, with an 18 charisma and skill focus, have a 100% chance at activating a wand. NEVER.

Yes, in your dreams desperately clinging to fantasy UMD scenarios to avoid admitting that you are wrong.

That means, to be guaranteed to activate a wand of Enlarge PERSON, then you have to be at a level where it will no longer work on you.

Ah, so this is the reason why you brought up that enlarge person thing. Grats, complete failure in this argumentation style attempt.

You have a chance to use it at level 1, yes... Heck, when fully optimized like this, you have a 50% chance.

This is what optimisation is about. Meahing "the best" (derived from Latin).

Which means when you use the wand, you will need to draw it, and then spend 2 of your most valuable resources, on average, Standard Actions, to use it. At level 11, you have a 75% chance, with an 18 charisma and skill focus, and 33% of your total class skill points in UMD. This means that you'll usually get your buff off.

Read in the guide on what to do with UMD if you do not wish to cast in combat.

Granted, I'll give you some of your spells as viable, with less. 10 charisma, skill focus (UMD), and Max ranks... That gives you a +5 at Level 1, and a good chance of 5-6 uses of a wand before failure (30% success). This would be useful for out of battle spells, general usefulness things. Like cure light wounds, and, in certain key situations, spells with a duration of hours per level or better. The advantage casters have in this situation is that they get spaces for these kind of spells, absolutely free of charge, with little to no chance of failure chance, and they recover daily. Hence why Batman has enhanced versatility with utility spells.

Hence why the Joker has so many other class abilities that help him do his job.

Note that, at level 20, you will still not have 100% chance to activate. "A long while" is something of an understatement.

See above.

However, if you are going in an area of exceptional danger, I can see the use of a buff that has a total duration of 1 hour or greater (only available in hour/level buffs for wands at standard caster levels). I can also see spells where charges can be held, though if this is the case, the monk may not touch anything. He can't open doors, draw items, change items from one hand to the other, pat a friend on the back, shake a hand, enter or exit different mediums(such as water), swing across a ravine by rope, climb up a cliff by rope, squeeze through a cave in, etc etc etc. In other words, any ability that requires the monk touch anything is simply off limits, greatly mitigating the monk's usefulness.

Well, for the touch to trigger it, the target must be legal. Most touch spells are necromantic or enchantment, so you can touch liveless things like water, air, doors, traps etc. to your heart's content.

Maybe and yes. Grapple is an attack that does require some method of grabbing. If your legs are otherwise occupied, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to disallow that.

Yes, deviating from the core rules, sure.

This does risk multiple items highly vulnerable to sunder.

Yes, can't have all...but notice how until mid-high levels, most of the time the Joker monk will NOT use wands IN combat?

Also, out of combat, many of a monk's key skills rely on free hands.

Which?

WBL is designed to shore up weaknesses and provide useful abilities. Not to make you combat viable in the first place.

? Where is that strange idea from? Not the core rules. You simply think it's wrong that the monk makes so good use out of items? But it's in the rules. So no need to whine about it.
And in a world without items, the monk would still have a place due to his many abilities - not as much in combat, but for tasks involving stealth and getting to places where other non-casters cannot (dim door, etheralness, highest jump skill if maxed).
And in a world without magic, the monk would be able to use grappling again, since so many fantasy creatuers like incorporal undead and huge outsiders are no longer there.

NPC spellcasters again, default to "no", and are showing how another class is useful to YOU, not how you are useful.

Well, let me tell you about synergy. If a party batman casts enlarge on the joker, he will defeat (as I showed answering Reel on, Love's post) all monsters up to CR 3, with no save. This is true synergy in a group. Both classes are needed to achieve it. Where is this strange attitude coming from that everyone should be grateful to batman, but not the other way round?

As for scrolls... See the following:

The Joker uses primarily wands, not scrolls, and definietly no scrolls at levels 1-10. At high levels, he uses scrolls that he can cast outside of combat (like mind blank).
And AMF is possible with a wand of greater heroism to be pushed to +25 modifier to make it 75% likely to be activated and ending an NPC Batman's reign at that level. Those are good odds.

Silence could be good here as an occasional use.

Yes, lest casters do not get impaired so often. That is a noble request.:smallsmile: But actualy, yes, since silence is a 2nd level spell, the wand will be used much more rarely.

Still, you're usually better off with a single pearl of power so that you can have 1 key fight every day, rather than 1 here and there.

You'll notice the Joker has some of these pearls already.

If you want a low level boost in battle, consider investing (out of core) in a Circlet of rapid casting for your wizard/sorceror/cleric/druid friend. Thus, he can get you most of the level 1-4 buffs without impacting his other actions in a round. Again, this showcases how useful those casters are to you... Not the other way around.

Yes, this strange notion again. Batman helping Joker - pure pity. Joker helping Batman - not necessary or even possible.
Who is making an agressive class vs class argument here?

The problem with this is... Magic's really not that cheap. Even the level 1 wand with 50 charges is over 10% of your WBL until level 5, and is more than the allocated disposable WBL until level 9. Assuming 1 use each fight? It's equal to disposable WBL at level 5. Disposable WBL is the difference between the average awarded treasure and the WBL gains between levels. As it's not OGL, I can't post any tables here, unfortunately. What does this mean? At level 5, if you get a Wand of Enlarge Person, that is all of your disposable WBL for level 5... about 80% of disposable WBL for level 6. About 40% of disposable WBL for level 7. About 10% of disposable WBL for level 8. That one purchase has occupied all of that, assuming 14 combat encounters per level, and average treasure rewards per encounter, along with 1 charge used for each encounter. That one wand is a major investment at level 5. At level 7 and 8, when it's running out? Now it's less of an expenditure, though you'll only get 8 charges out of it during level 8. So, this Combat spell, with a duration of 10 rounds, at levels 5 and 6, represent most of your disposable WBL, and have a 60% chance of successful activation, with a 5% catastrophic failure chance. At levels 7 and 8, you have a 65% chance. (assuming, again, 18 charisma, skill focus in UMD, and 33% base skill points every level on UMD)

Well, summarised that - it's difficult to track it bit by bit. But your message is clear: the wand budget is not enough.
Well, I outlined to Reel on, Love above already that by level 10 the Joker will be able to have cast 1,000 first level spells. That should be enough for all purposes, since it is the first level spells the Joker intends to make most use of in those first 10 levels.

Showed how wands and scrolls, the two useful items listed, are misrepresented as to their utility, and spells only showcase the usefulness of the caster that you're depending on for them, rather than the monk. Check. Also, showed that the monk is going to be whiffing in combat with failed UMD's quite often. Failed UMD = wasted actions. On a round you fail a UMD, you have your base move, and that's pretty much it. You have no offensive contribution, and little skill contribution to the party. Actions are the main currency.

As you outlined yourself above, there are other ways to make use of UMD than in combat. So no crucial actions wasted.

Though it is possible to spend more than your disposable WBL on disposable items, such as Wands and Scrolls, doing so will cause your WBL to fall behind the rest of the party, as you're spending into your permanent wealth on things you'll use and destroy.

It does not fall behind the rest, since the monk has so many class abilities that he can afford to spend his money on other stuff.

Thus, it's been shown that by disposable WBL, the UMD monk is certainly not very viable before level 5, and very limited in UMD after that. If he purchases a wand at level 5, a scroll at level 6 (level 1 only), another wand (level 1) at level 7, and 6 scrolls (level 1, if level 2, 3 scrolls) at level 8. The amount of one shot items you have are limited. Quite a bit moreso than the enounters.
This is a refutation of one of the core principles of the UMD monk. UMD at low levels.

see above.

As for the rest? The majority of the concept of the post is a direct confrontation between classes, and as such, is limited in usefulness for practical character development. Expect a monk guide from me focusing on monk utility, versatility, and usefulness later on.

This is really a disappointing review, one that I have difficulty to understand even coming from someone with a different opinion. Imo it illustrates that you have failed to read it through. It is quite revealing that your post actually only deals with part II.1. (on the Giamonk principles) and then simply shrugs off all the rest.
Answer me one question: If the joker build replaced UMD with Balance and maxed tumble, got weapon focus and power attack (for the staff) of the UMD feats, and would devote his 300,000+ wand budget over level 1-20 to some magic monk weapons, ring of spell storing with silence and enlarge, would you then be happy?
The funny thing is - the Joker would still be quite a threat to casters this way.

I hope that at least some readers of this thread (if not posters) will get something out of the guide. You apparently do not.

It's been in the works for about a week, and will attempt to showcase the strengths of the monk class, giving options for useful directions to take it, without focusing on the individual comparisons between classes that take away from the usefulness of such a guide. Expect it to be a helpful resource for those who like the concept of the monk, and would like to try one.

Feel free to do so. Actually, a non-core guide would be great, since I lack many of the resources needed for it.

Currently, it has planned:

Theme and principle of the monk class.

Check the PHB. You'll find everything of the assumed roles in my level 1-20 build, ontop of the the casterbane tactics.

Different appealing aspects
Options for focusing and bringing out the best in these
Typical weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the class
Options for defending and protecting those weaknesses
Typical roles the monk can fill in the party
Class Synergy, and the usefulness of monk when a short term dip or when
using other classes to support the monk theme

I wonder how many things will simply repeat what I already posted.:smallsmile: But I hope for new insights to add to the Joker's already vast versatility.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 03:50 AM
clearly this great hero has risen from the grave to help defend the name of all good monks!


*opens mouth to argue*

*looks at avatar*

Le Gasp!


IS YUO!

Reinboom
2008-05-18, 04:03 AM
This argumentation style is pointless, since, this only leads to the ability of one or the other to simply say "ah, but this!" to each refuting point.

The largest perpetrator:


"Which means when you use the wand, you will need to draw it, and then spend 2 of your most valuable resources, on average, Standard Actions, to use it. At level 11, you have a 75% chance, with an 18 charisma and skill focus, and 33% of your total class skill points in UMD. This means that you'll usually get your buff off."

Read in the guide on what to do with UMD if you do not wish to cast in combat.

--
The note of this post is that, slow down.
I believe each topic would be best left in a singled out fashion (since, each point of action is a single action as part of a whole - even if there is a whole, each whole is a series of sects, and it is most productive in this case of argumentation for the sects to each be individualized - since - also in this case, no more than a single action, due to the game mechanics, can be taken at once.)

For example, instead of doing Monks on a whole, focus on UMD.

--
I would then like to expand this drawing point further by firstly just focusing upon this point. Specifically:
How is UMD (for a Monk) decent in combat given the failure rate is quite high.

---
Final side note: I feel as though Giacomo may have ignored a few posts. May I get a comment on my previous commoner?

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 04:20 AM
at this level potions of enlarge are dirt cheap, and work 100% of the time.

Thanks, lord_khaine, for pointing out the obvious to Talic and me- I forgot a bit about the potion possibility. While wands are more cost-effective - yes, potions can jump in at low levels in those cases where attempting to buff for 2 rounds is not possible.

@Solo: nice avatar!:smallcool: However, your AC comparison is odd. Add a mage armour to the wizard but ignoring it for the monk? Hmmm. Although you may say that it is a class ability for one, but not for the other...in which case fighting defensively from level 2 boosts the monk by 3...So I guess both batman and joker have ways to keep out of jail, wouln't you agree?:smallsmile:


The largest perpetrator:

This already shows me that there is a bit of a bias in your post...but I hope that we all heed your advice.
Still, would you have me accept half-truths about my original guide and obvious errors?


I would then like to expand this drawing point further by firstly just focusing upon this point. Specifically:
How is UMD (for a Monk) decent in combat given the failure rate is quite high.

The failure rate is nil by level 15, can be made nil quite easily by level 13, and with some effort by level 9.
Apart from that, the simple answer is: use UMD outside of combat. It is meant mainly for buffs. Some buffs last quite long.
In combat you can maybe also use your higher move and hide to get another chance to activate the item.
In case of escape pods, such as obscuring mist - well, having a 75% chance to turn the situation to your advantage is better than having no chance.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 04:27 AM
Double post arg!

Rutee
2008-05-18, 04:27 AM
Er.. level 15? You built this thing to start from level 1, didn't you? Level 15 is a /lot/ of sessions. You also rely on MW items (The problem being that you /can't/ get a MW item of everything). Without it, well, that's 10% off at every level.

You also have buffs that last in a time span of turns, not hours, though not all buffs are as such. In combat, using "Hide" and "Movement" to get more chances to buff equates to doing nothing (And not using the AC you hail as vaunted to keep characters you feel are less survivable around).

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 04:30 AM
Glad to answer your commoner statement, SweetRein.

A commoner having a candle of invocation to cast gate has exactly NOTHING to do with the monk's guide.

Seriously, SweetRein. People around here take great issue with how good UMD is to use in certain situations and ignore the rest of the class - it is so comfortable for them, you know? Because they can thus safely dodge the question to actually PROVE that the monk class is weak.
If they show that UMD is not soo-great (but it is), or that allegedly my build relies on "broken stuff" (which it does not), then they believe they show the monk is a bad class.
And this is not exactly helpful.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 04:33 AM
@Solo: nice avatar! However, your AC comparison is odd. Add a mage armour to the wizard but ignoring it for the monk? Hmmm. Although you may say that it is a class ability for one, but not for the other...in which case fighting defensively from level 2 boosts the monk by 3...
Same for the wizard.

The wizard, however, gets MA for free each day. the Monk has to spend $$$ and suffer a 50% do nothing chance to get it up. Seems inefficient.


So I guess both batman and joker have ways to keep out of jail, wouln't you agree?
Pfft. Batman has his cave and the Joker spends his time in an asylum.

Bassetking
2008-05-18, 04:39 AM
Open and shut. All arguements have been refuted, all qualifications, codified. He has been mathematically, logically, and to all depths and reaches of human understanding disproven, and I would like to provide you with this from the past...


Azerian Kelimon: Thank you for the offering of your services. I'm afraid I must, also, turn you down. I constructed three, viable, legal, reasonable builds under Giacomo's extant restrictions, and feel no need to re-engage him. I am flatly certain, at this point, that regardless of outcome, he will remain unswervingly unconvinced. Regardless of proof, logic, math, or truth, he will refuse the information presented, and trumpet his willful ignorance.

It is more akin to watching the man on the street corner, ranting as to how the government is trying to spy upon his teeth, how the Venusians are monitoring his thoughts through Starbucks instore Wifi, and how Moon Ghosts are endevouring to keep him from being employable.

By which, I mean, Street Theater.

Solo
2008-05-18, 04:42 AM
Thoughts:

Giacomo should actually play one of his monks in a game and see how that turns out. (He has received countless offers to actually do so in test runs, but I suppose he turned them down because he never had the time to actually play his builds, being busy writing guides and defending the honor monks everywhere)

Giacomo should submit his Monk Guide to the CharOp forums and receive their praise and adulation, rather than our narrow sighted, unimaginative, capitalist roadster, biased scorn.

When the vast majority, including experts, reject your thesis, you are either a groundbreaking rebel or completely wrong.
Which one you see yourself as depends entirely on the size of your hubris.

Just so we're clear, does anyone actually support the UMD monk? Lord_Khaine? Emeraldstreak?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-18, 04:46 AM
Pfft. Batman has his cave and the Joker spends his time in an asylum.

:smallsigh: ... you have been lining that line up for how long?


THIS guide is a DEFENSE, not an ATTACK on other classes. It should be fairly obvious.

Er, y'know, from the title, and your main arguing target, I'd say not, actually. I can't precisely put my finger on it, but ... something just suggests it to me.

Solo
2008-05-18, 04:51 AM
THIS guide is a DEFENSE, not an ATTACK on other classes. It should be fairly obvious.


Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Making the Most of What you Have (When Casters Believe What They Have Is Already Ridiculously Good)


As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the goddamn Joker!
Relying on tricks and unusual stuff to overcome the physically…er magically stronger Batman.


Some things that will help you in your noble quests to make life miserable for casters:


Basically, what would hurt casters most?



Normally stopping the spells/spellcasting of a caster means almost certain win.


This joker (or Giamonk) build is intended to be quite versatile, but with a bias to combat casters.
________________________

Kurald Galain
2008-05-18, 04:51 AM
Er.. level 15? You built this thing to start from level 1, didn't you? Level 15 is a /lot/ of sessions.

Yep. The gonk spends the first year of the campaign hiding behind the other characters, promising that he'll be useful at some point in the future, honestly. Wow, does that ever sound like a great character to play!

Of course, Gia is conveniently ignoring the points that e.g. masterwork UMD items aren't acknowledged to exist by anyone other than himself, or that most of the wants he wands aren't available on the big OGL table of wands, or that in many campaigns a significant part of the treasure is given out by the DM rather than bought in the magic item shoppe, or that spending 3-5 rounds to get your buffs on means that the battle will be over before you do something useful.

The easy way to make a gonk viable for play? Replace all of his "monk" levels by "rogue" levels, or even "expert" levels. Ta dah!

Solo
2008-05-18, 04:54 AM
Might I ask why so much time is devoted to countering casters, and so little to combating monsters and enemies with PC levels?

Reinboom
2008-05-18, 04:54 AM
Glad to answer your commoner statement, SweetRein.

A commoner having a candle of invocation to cast gate has exactly NOTHING to do with the monk's guide.

Seriously, SweetRein. People around here take great issue with how good UMD is to use in certain situations and ignore the rest of the class - it is so comfortable for them, you know? Because they can thus safely dodge the question to actually PROVE that the monk class is weak.
If they show that UMD is not soo-great (but it is), or that allegedly my build relies on "broken stuff" (which it does not), then they believe they show the monk is a bad class.
And this is not exactly helpful.

- Giacomo

UMD is to Monk as Candle is to Commoner.
That was my point.



This already shows me that there is a bit of a bias in your post...but I hope that we all heed your advice.
Still, would you have me accept half-truths about my original guide and obvious errors?



The failure rate is nil by level 15, can be made nil quite easily by level 13, and with some effort by level 9.
Apart from that, the simple answer is: use UMD outside of combat. It is meant mainly for buffs. Some buffs last quite long.
In combat you can maybe also use your higher move and hide to get another chance to activate the item.
In case of escape pods, such as obscuring mist - well, having a 75% chance to turn the situation to your advantage is better than having no chance.

- Giacomo

Yes, I am biased. I believe this is an open and shut case, as has been mentioned. This does not stop me from wanting a more structured form of argumentation, however.

And I believe, based on your posts, you accept the half truths about your original guide. Or you would not post them. However, this line provides nothing to the point to be had - and that is the mechanical analysis upon which the argument should be presented, and not the argument itself.

For the failure rate:
Show how. Exactly. Don't just say it can be. Exact builds, data, etc.
On everything. Everything needs to be directly supported. Others have shown their's.

On the obscuring mist:
The difference between 75% chance from a Monk and 95% chance from a Rogue is VERY significant. As is in comparison to all actions. Also, obscuring mist is a singular example, I would like to see more than that. We now have obscuring mist on the list - which is prime in it's own situational set up. However, more information is required than singular examples.

Also

wants he wands
*biggest selling mars candy bar*

Kurald Galain
2008-05-18, 05:00 AM
Coming up next:

Druide, where's my Cart? Kurald Galain's Guide to Commoners. In which I honestly am not dissing the druid class, I'm just showing that commoners are a much better class. Than druids. You see, they're called commoners because everybody plays one (that's what "common" means) and people wouldn't be playing them unless they were so great. It's not about PVP, it's just that a commoner can totally kick a druid's ass. YA RLY.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 05:02 AM
(interim) Last, but not least, Solo...



As for the potion of Enlarge giving you a bonus.... what if the monster gets Enlarged as well*

Enlarge person only works on, er...persons.

I approve of the School of Khaine.

***Bows in the presence of the monk master, too***

Actually, come to think of it, my major gripe with the School of Gia is that he has a UMD grapple build, not a monk build, but he doesn't acknowledge the fact that it is a not-monk build.

Hmm. There is no class in core that could equate the Joker Monk in the School of UMD grapple build (which is actually an enlarge person grapple build like the lord_khaine school which you praised, only with some UMD and skills spread for versatility for the sacrifice of a lower STR score by 2-4).
You do not seem to acknowledge that outside UMD, around 95% of the guide is devoted to the monk class and its abilities.

Giacomo:
You an Enlarge something by using a spell other than Enlarge Person, can't you?

Yes. Shown in the guide.

70%-65% fail chance @ level 10

?

Cause they use their class abilities (which they are suppose to, being class abilities), whereas your monk uses a non class ability?

You mean...a non-caster should never be ever buffed by a spell? Because, you know, it is not a class ability. Strangely I got the feeling that the introducation of buff spell target: touch means the designers intend the casters to buff others, too. Hmmm.

Say, Giacomo, maybe you're busy, but how come this part of my post wasn't addressed?

Oh, sorry. Was busy answering to 20 other posts. But now...

You can sell a 1988 Audi at any used car lot, but the chances of going to any used car lot and finding a 1988 Audi are much smaller. Understood?

Ahh...ignoring the wonders of the internet...
But seriously, it is handled a bit different in the core rules where the only thing affecting availability is the value or price (used interchangeably in the core rules). :smallsmile:

By the way, can you quote the specific text for those of us without a copy of the DMG?

That was done already further up by a different poster, but just for you again:

p. 199 "Charged Magic Items: A player may select a partially used magic item for part of his character's starting gear. Such an item's value is proportional to the charges left compared to the charges in a newly created item."

p. 214: "Prices listed are always for fully charged items. (When an item is created, it is fully charged). For an item that's worthless when its charges run out (which is the case for almost all charged items), the value o f the partialyl used item is proportional to the number of charges left."
Now, as we know from economics 101, value or price is derived from two things: supply and demand. If demand does not exist, the value is 0, if supply does not exist, the value is infinite. So if the DMG assumes a simple proportional rule for value, it assumes demand and supply. Simple.
Like it or not, it's part of the game.

You only need INT and moderate DEX/CON to be an effective wizard. An effective monk needs more than good ONESTAT and moderate OTHERSTAT/OTHERSTAT. Thus they are MAD by the additive property of addition.

And as I have shown, and as the lord_khaine monk has shown, this is not the case. The important skill UMD is even taken with an 8 in CHR.

1. As Talic's table of CR appropriate and under CR monsters has shown, your grapple modifier will be outclassed by a lot of monsters in the DMG.

It was actually Reel on. Love's table and it by now got disproven (see above).

2. Barbarians move quickly too.

What kind of argument is that? You know, rangers are also be able to cast spells, like druids. But guess who is better at that.

3. How are you maxing out spot/listen/move silently/hide while also having enough skill points to max out UMD and avoiding MAD?

Er...read the build?

Base damage is weak if you don't have the muscle to back it up. That means you'll need high strength. MAD yet?

As shown, it is not necessary.

Level 10 Joker
UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged

Lol.

Avrg. 12 dmg, 17.5 enlarged @ lvl 10.

Lulz

Flurried that's already 52.5 damage. He still outgrapples the fighting classes, btw (improved grapple bonus +4 vs the 3 BAB disadvantage, not counting the enlarge effect of +5). And you'll notice that in my build I made explicit mention that in levels 9-10, the monk should use stealth tactics until his unarmed damage really goes throug the roof with a monk's belt and more attacks by level 11.

SAVES: Fort +9, Refl +10, Will +10 (+12 vs enchantment)
Ozymandias can toss out a DC23 Save or X spell at your level. 20 (+5) CHA, +4 (+2) item, +1 School Focus (pre-req for Archmage), +5 from a level 5 spell (Baleful Polymorph, anyone?) + 10 = +23
Your fort save succeeds on a 14. that is a 70% chance of failure. But I'm sure your 3d8+4 base damage and your +14(+19) grapple mod make up for it.

Against Ozymandias, the grapple is more than enough.
And how exactly will Ozymandias target the Joker monk when he hides or when the smoke from the eversmoking bottle is up? And not that it would be of great avail, but to completely defeat the joker with baleful polymorph, you'll have to also defeat his will save. Fear the squirrel with monk unarmed strikes!:smallbiggrin: (only a holy hand grenade could defeat it then).

Also, for a guide to playing monks, you sure spend a lot of time talking about how to PvP wizards.

Actually, I wrote about that nowhere in the guide, which is the funny part about it. You WISH to read it in there, although it is not there.
It's all about npc caster enemies.

Thus, I conclude

Your monk fu is weak; remain in the sorcerer college where you belong...:smallsmile:.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 05:05 AM
Your monk fu is weak
+20 racial bonus from being Asian.



In case of escape pods, such as obscuring mist - well, having a 75% chance to turn the situation to your advantage is better than having no chance.

You know what's better than a 75% chance? A 100% chance. I hereby endorse this statement as being true by the power vested in my by the William and Mary Department of Mathematics.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 05:09 AM
Yep. The gonk spends the first year of the campaign hiding behind the other characters, promising that he'll be useful at some point in the future, honestly. Wow, does that ever sound like a great character to play!

Another proof you have not read the guide. Or you only know the "rush the monsters and attack them with TH weapon, or else you would not choose to ignore the possbility of stealth and grapple tactics. Have you even read also other parts of the thread where I showed what a +13 grappling monk at level 3 does to the worst monsters of CR 3 (intended for FOUR party members)?


Of course, Gia is conveniently ignoring the points that e.g. masterwork UMD items aren't acknowledged to exist by anyone other than himself

and the PHB/SRD


, or that most of the wants he wands aren't available on the big OGL table of wands,

That table is for random treasure only. And it INCLUDES wands of enlarge btw.


or that in many campaigns a significant part of the treasure is given out by the DM rather than bought in the magic item shoppe, or that spending 3-5 rounds to get your buffs on means that the battle will be over before you do something useful.

Again, read the rules again. And what I wrote already several times: the build can be provided with a different fluff, but the rules simply assume that you can have all these items however you like them. Like it or not.


The easy way to make a gonk viable for play? Replace all of his "monk" levels by "rogue" levels, or even "expert" levels. Ta dah!

Yep. That is the most you can argue, that much I have learned. But I greatly enjoyed your samurai's guide, and look forward to the commoner guide :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2008-05-18, 05:12 AM
Hmm. There is no class in core that could equate the Joker Monk in the School of UMD grapple build
Sure there is. Any full-BAB class is a better grappler and has the same chance at UMD. Any bard/rogue/expert is better at UMD and has the same chance at grappling.



[COLOR="Green"]p. 199 "Charged Magic Items: A player may select a partially used magic item for part of his character's starting gear.
You are, I hope, aware that after level one, you're no longer selecting starting gear?



The failure rate is nil by level 15, can be made nil quite easily by level 13, and with some effort by level 9.
So you are admitting your build is ineffective at levels below 9. That's nearly half of the game, right there. At levels 9-13, what happens is that you spend the first two or three rounds of combat buffing yourself to get your UMD up to speed. Most of the buffs you selected won't last from one combat to the next, and that includes the UMD boosting buffs.


In case of escape pods, such as obscuring mist - well, having a 75% chance to turn the situation to your advantage is better than having no chance.
That depends, obviously, on what the other 25% are; in this case, they amount to standing around fiddling with a stick.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 05:15 AM
UMD is to Monk as Candle is to Commoner.
That was my point.

I see. So, a monk using a 1st level spell wand is exactly as game-breaking/problematic as a commoner using a 9th level spell with odd spell interpretations? Hmmm. Does this sound odd to anyone else?

Yes, I am biased. I believe this is an open and shut case, as has been mentioned. This does not stop me from wanting a more structured form of argumentation, however.

To be applauded. The structured form of argumentation starts in the guide. And you wish to discuss UMD, despite it being the main issue already for 6 pages. Care to bring up something else?

And I believe, based on your posts, you accept the half truths about your original guide.

Actually, that is what I try to oppose rectify - half truths like "ah, his monk uses leadership" or "you can only UMD wands with 100% at level 20", "most CR 3 creatures will outgrapple you". And hope at some point or another some constructive discussion starts.

Or you would not post them. However, this line provides nothing to the point to be had - and that is the mechanical analysis upon which the argument should be presented, and not the argument itself.

?

For the failure rate:
Show how. Exactly. Don't just say it can be. Exact builds, data, etc.
On everything. Everything needs to be directly supported. Others have shown their's.

Er...am I in the wrong thread? Hint: page 1: the guide.

On the obscuring mist:
The difference between 75% chance from a Monk and 95% chance from a Rogue is VERY significant. As is in comparison to all actions. Also, obscuring mist is a singular example, I would like to see more than that. We now have obscuring mist on the list - which is prime in it's own situational set up. However, more information is required than singular examples.

Yes, it is very significant. In that the rogue has a huge problem in the obscuring mist: his sneak attacks are blocked. So the mist and concealment is a monk blind-fight tactics, but never a rogue tactics.

- Giacomo

horseboy
2008-05-18, 05:15 AM
Well, you might say, then I'll simply charge the Joker with a greatsword and power attack! Again, you disregard the monk's class ability. Thanks to his combat reflexes, he'll grapple you before you even reach him. And while his attack bonus (as you rightfully point out) is lower, he only needs to hit the touch AC, making your expensive armour useless. Oh, Oh, Oh I get to do a Morbo!
COMBAT REFLEXES DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!
Charging doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity for you to use combat reflexes. You need Hold the Line, a non-core feat. Giamonk would run away.


It depends...the joker always DID survive and come back. How alike the monk :smalltongue:
Plus, in the last appearance I know of (dark knight returns) the Joker has the last laugh...:smallcool:
Well, according to Batman Beyond Wayne does wind up killing the Joker for reals. Of course he has a spawn of imitators....

Also, where you have the gauntlets of ogre power for only one level, I'd go ahead and just get the gloves of dex then, that way you don't sell it for half and loose some of your WBL. You need all you can get.

Talic
2008-05-18, 05:16 AM
Er...where in my post did I do that? The logicninja's guide is great, but somehow led many posters around here to develop some strange notions about the game; what is possible, and what not, and above all, that wizards are way more powerful than anyone else. And this monk's can help to remedy that.
Wrong. Your guide is loaded with comments on how well a monk can beat casters. Very little is devoted to showing how the monk helps the party. In fact, most of it is showing how the party helps the monk, to beat casters. I understand if you're not 100% on it, it is 7 pages back. Feel free to review it and get back to me.

Where in that guide did I say anything about PvP? There are npc casters, you know. This monk CAN be taken with some minor modifications to be a good pvp duel character, in particular against casters.The majority of you OP is designed around the concept of "Monk vs caster". That is not "party contribution". That's "monk > caster".
In what you write here and in the following below you clearly signal that you 1) did not read my guide completely and 2) what you read you did with a preset idea of how I allegedly argue and what I allegedly wish to do.Friendly reminder, stating that someone obviously didn't read what you wrote is a violation of board policies if I'm not mistaken. There's a forum rules thread at the top of the section that can give the specifics, I believe.

Also, I'm not responding to what you "allegedly" said. I'm responding to Post 1 of this thread. It's a while back there, again, feel free to refresh yourself on it, as the thread has seemingly devolved into grappling discussion for some time.

No, actually you and other posters often post with a notion of "biased class wars." You do challenges to ridicule monks and then refuse to give up your rules perceptions even when the evidence is waved in front of you.
THIS guide is a DEFENSE, not an ATTACK on other classes. It should be fairly obvious.Accusation? Have I posted with any statements lauding one class over another here? No, I've debated your specific posts here. Nothing else. It'll help if you check previous arguments at the door, and debate my current posts, rather than uncited phantom posts that may or may not say anything.

WHAT? You reduce the viability of the UMD concept to the little detail that at level 20 (where hardly anyone ever ventures) one (1!) spell can no longer be used by a monk? Bearing in mind that 1) game assumes by that level other methods to get larger and 2) even if morph is frowned upon this includes other things. This is ridiculous to the extreme.Actually, that was a mild side note, rather than the main argument.

And the monk with a level 20 character wbl budget can use rightuous might (as the barbarian). And read again what I wrote about when to use grappling tactics until what level and when not.
Again, that's a mild side note, rather than the main thrust. This isn't class vs class, again. That was a mild comment on how the monk's specific class features prevent the use of the spell, and showing mild amusement at how you left "Person" off all your instances of "Enlarge Person".
Yep. I see all the fighter players happily giving back their magic weapons (they were created by spellcasters, after all) and get reduced to nothing by an allip.Example of the use of WBL to shore up a weakness. The post this replied to was taken out of context. As actions are at a premium in combat, when the wizard uses a spell to buff the monk, the wizard is using his combat currency to help another class. The monk then does what he does. When the monk attacks, he's overcoming the challenge, with the wizard's assistance. The wizard is showing that he can help another class. Outside of combat and inside of combat are two totally different worlds. Outside, time is less regimented, and you have actions. In the typical combat, you have 3-5 standard actions to spend. The wizard must choose to do something with those actions, whether it's block LOS, grease an enemy, magic missile, web, or what. When he spends that action HELPING the monk, he isn't doing anything else. If he is giving up his ability to do nothing but assist the monk in doing his task, it's fair to say that the wizard is showing usefulness to the party, if that buff is effective. The monk isn't showing any more usefulness than anyone else, if that same spell could be applied to another class just as well. Let's say Barbarian. 18 str, 22 rage, 24 enlarge for a +14 total grapple mod, and with reach, won't provoke from most enemies. Let's say fighter. 18 str,+2 enlarge, Improved grapple, for a total of +5 str +3 BAB +4 Size +4 Improved grapple or +16. Both classes can do it just as well, if not better, with little effort. 18 str is something good for both classes anyway. Now, in a perfect world, we'd have enough for everyone, but when the wizard has the choice between the 18str barbarian and the 14 str monk for that enlarge... Well, it doesn't show that the monk is bad. Just that the other class is better at that specific task. In any case, regardless of who that buff's on, the character's in the double digits anyway (though the fighter was already there, with +11 pre-boost). , so the wizard is the one aspect of that that can't change. Some classes are just more proficient at grappling. In this instance? The fighter can do that task best. Barbarian is second. Monk is third. The fighter has the best chance of doin' the dance without the buff tho. 18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 cha used for both builds. 32 point build.
And the non-caster class is providing the caster class with the permanent protection, that they, with their only limited duration magic, cannot emulate (only at much, much higher levels, where they will still need to have the non-caster abilities around in case their magic is countered/foiled in one of the many, many ways that I described in the guide. Read it, you'll be surprised.Again, I read it fully. I just don't agree with it. Again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't levy that accusation. I find it personally insulting, to be honest. Non-caster classes need melee backup a good portion of the time. That doesn't explain why that melee backup should be the monk. The wizard is at his best when he makes the most out of what's available, whether its terrain, party members, or whatnot. The monk is at his best when the wizard's enhancing him. The difference is the wizard is proactively changing something. The monk is waiting to be changed before he does anything.
But read the guide's section on the typical monk myth - you just brought up one again.I did. Again. I did. My request on this has already been made. I'll leave it at that.

Which proves you have not read the guide. Your numbers may be correct, but UMD can be reached for the critical +19 level much earlier.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but you're starting to. With an 18 cha, full level boosts into Cha, and skill focus, you'll get +19 two levels earlier. At level 19. If you want the MW Skill item? Note, that's for craft skills, and other items not listed are by DM approval, since they're not in core.

With a +6 Cha Item, it drops it lower. To level 14. That's about as low as you'll get, but you'll need a 36k item, whose only purpose is to make your disposable items more useful. It will succeed at that. Now you can spend round 1 of combats buffing yourself, while everyone else DOES something.

Yes, in your dreams desperately clinging to fantasy UMD scenarios to avoid admitting that you are wrong.No, at some point I feel it's not worth the assets invested for the gain you receive. From what I've listed, the assets expended are:
50% of a 32 point buy's stats.
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
1/6 of the character's class based skill points.
2/3 of attribute boosts up to level 14
36,000 gp

All for the ability to reliably use wands.

Now, let's take a rogue, 14 Cha. (1/6 of class based skill points)
Max ranks in UMD (1/8 of class granted skill points)
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
No Attribute boosts
4,000 gp on a +2 cloak of cha

Achieves +19 UMD at level 10.
With more stats for good dex, good sneak attack, good hide abilities, attribute boosts, WBL for other things, etc.

Less investment, lower level, equal return. This is why it's good. Except the rogue will go for a wand of Reduce person, for extra dex, size to AC, and the like.

Read in the guide on what to do with UMD if you do not wish to cast in combat.Sigh. I did. It's just rubbish information, that's all.

Hence why the Joker has so many other class abilities that help him do his job.Which is? I still fail to see anything that other classes can't do better.

Well, for the touch to trigger it, the target must be legal. Most touch spells are necromantic or enchantment, so you can touch liveless things like water, air, doors, traps etc. to your heart's content.Wrong. Illegal targets fizzle spells. Reread section on "holding a charge". It doesn't mention an illegal target. Any touch will trigger it. Yeah.
Yes, can't have all...but notice how until mid-high levels, most of the time the Joker monk will NOT use wands IN combat?Instead, relying on the wizard to make sure he stays viable, rather than make another party member or area of the battlefield control.


Also, out of combat, many of a monk's key skills rely on free hands.

Which?I'll refer you to the SRD, Monk, skill list, look through several of the Dex and Str based skills. Many do require hands. Not all, certainly, but then, I never claimed that, did I?

Where is that strange idea from? Not the core rules. You simply think it's wrong that the monk makes so good use out of items? But it's in the rules. So no need to whine about it.That's not whining. Please do not use derogotory terms when referencing me. I find it offensive. I find it odd that the monk requires those expendable items to function, and without them, is behind in many of his strategies. I'm stating that your idea for use of WBL, innovative as it is, is impractical, and not worth the expenditure of assets and resources to make it viable.

And in a world without items, the monk would still have a place due to his many abilities - not as much in combat, but for tasks involving stealth and getting to places where other non-casters cannot (dim door, etheralness, highest jump skill if maxed).Stealth, the rogue outperforms. The monk has dim door. That's it. It doesn't get the party anywhere though. It's a "me only" ability... Which is of limited use to the party, beyond perhaps lowering a rope down afterwards... Which could have been taken care of with less resource loss if the wizard levitated the rogue or other class. Again, teamwork is key.

And in a world without magic, the monk would be able to use grappling again, since so many fantasy creatuers like incorporal undead and huge outsiders are no longer there.Though animals and vermin scale for their HD faster than the monk keeps up too.

Well, let me tell you about synergy. If a party batman casts enlarge on the joker, he will defeat (as I showed answering Reel on, Love's post) all monsters up to CR 3, with no save. This is true synergy in a group. Both classes are needed to achieve it. Where is this strange attitude coming from that everyone should be grateful to batman, but not the other way round?I'm not saying that. I'm saying the wizard shows his usefulness for the party by what he, and only he, can do. The monk has yet to show that.

The Joker uses primarily wands, not scrolls, and definietly no scrolls at levels 1-10. At high levels, he uses scrolls that he can cast outside of combat (like mind blank).That's an awfully expensive buff to be rebuying daily.
And AMF is possible with a wand of greater heroism to be pushed to +25 modifier to make it 75% likely to be activated and ending an NPC Batman's reign at that level. Those are good odds.Again, competing against a specific thing. Batman. That's the DM villain concept, not the PC concept. Though the wand of greater heroism + the other resources + the scroll? A LOT of WBL for that 1 use ability. And I won't get into AMF = win. There are too many variables to predict such a thing.

You'll notice the Joker has some of these pearls already.Thus, there is some sense in the item purchase choices.

Yes, this strange notion again. Batman helping Joker - pure pity. Joker helping Batman - not necessary or even possible.
Who is making an agressive class vs class argument here?I never stated anything of the sort. I'm showing that, if the buffs are so necessary as to justify devoting massive assets to it, a cost effective way to ensure you receive it is to allow the wizard to help you at little cost to himself. More cost effective, and accomplishes the same goal. Still, again, this is better performed by other classes, and the only thing needed is the caster. Points made above for that.

Well, summarised that - it's difficult to track it bit by bit. But your message is clear: the wand budget is not enough.
Well, I outlined to Reel on, Love above already that by level 10 the Joker will be able to have cast 1,000 first level spells. That should be enough for all purposes, since it is the first level spells the Joker intends to make most use of in those first 10 levels.And, as I outlined, your numbers are off. The bit by bit amount is not difficult to track. I did it for levels 1-20 in 5 minutes. Applies equally to all classes. Multiply the average wealth gained per encounter by 14. From that, subtract (WBL of higher level - WBL of lower level.) That's your disposable WBL, or the amount the game expects you to spend when you adventure. Spending more puts you under WBL. By dismissing it as overly complicated, you fail to take into account that it is correct, and it directly refutes your numbers.

As you outlined yourself above, there are other ways to make use of UMD than in combat. So no crucial actions wasted.Any action wasted in combat? Wasted. If you're restricting yourself to out of combat only? Don't count on Enlarge Person before level 14.

Though it is possible to spend more than your disposable WBL on disposable items, such as Wands and Scrolls, doing so will cause your WBL to fall behind the rest of the party, as you're spending into your permanent wealth on things you'll use and destroy.

It does not fall behind the rest, since the monk has so many class abilities that he can afford to spend his money on other stuff.Wrong. If the Fighter buys a +1 sword, and hits 50 things with it, it's still worth 2300 gp and change. Absolutely no disposable income lost.
If a monk buys a wand of enlarge, and over 4 levels, uses it, he's out 750gp of disposable wealth.
This is why you're wrong. You fail to grasp that you'll use your WBL faster than the core rules expect you to, putting you behind the curve for WBL at upper levels.

Imo it illustrates that you have failed to read it through. It is quite revealing that your post actually only deals with part II.1. (on the Giamonk principles) and then simply shrugs off all the rest.
Because, by your bolded text in my initial post, UMD is a key feature of the class. For brevity, and time, I restricted myself to that. Not because I didn't read it.

I hope that at least some readers of this thread (if not posters) will get something out of the guide. You apparently do not.I got a laugh. Does that count?


I wonder how many things will simply repeat what I already posted.:smallsmile: But I hope for new insights to add to the Joker's already vast versatility.Some things will likely bear reprinting, however, all research is independently derived, and is not being made from the same point of view as you. I fail to see how you'll draw too awfully much from it.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-18, 05:16 AM
Coming up next:

Druide, where's my Cart? Kurald Galain's Guide to Commoners. In which I honestly am not dissing the druid class, I'm just showing that commoners are a much better class. Than druids. You see, they're called commoners because everybody plays one (that's what "common" means)

It's from the Latin 'communus'.

Reinboom
2008-05-18, 05:20 AM
You can sell a 1988 Audi at any used car lot, but the chances of going to any used car lot and finding a 1988 Audi are much smaller. Understood?

Ahh...ignoring the wonders of the internet...
But seriously, it is handled a bit different in the core rules where the only thing affecting availability is the value or price (used interchangeably in the core rules). :smallsmile:

By the way, can you quote the specific text for those of us without a copy of the DMG?

That was done already further up by a different poster, but just for you again:

p. 199 "Charged Magic Items: A player may select a partially used magic item for part of his character's starting gear. Such an item's value is proportional to the charges left compared to the charges in a newly created item."

p. 214: "Prices listed are always for fully charged items. (When an item is created, it is fully charged). For an item that's worthless when its charges run out (which is the case for almost all charged items), the value o f the partialyl used item is proportional to the number of charges left."
Now, as we know from economics 101, value or price is derived from two things: supply and demand. If demand does not exist, the value is 0, if supply does not exist, the value is infinite. So if the DMG assumes a simple proportional rule for value, it assumes demand and supply. Simple.
Like it or not, it's part of the game.

I would like to intercept this portion, in saying there is an error in the argument itself that makes the proof faulty.

But seriously, it is handled a bit different in the core rules where the only thing affecting availability is the value or price (used interchangeably in the core rules). :smallsmile:
Portion specifically, is a view of the rules in which "there is no logical connection the rules clearly state to which a manner of verisimilitude can be reached." That is, "it is clearly not defined in the rules, thus the game world should be assumed to work this way."

While on the other hand.

Now, as we know from economics 101, value or price is derived from two things: supply and demand. If demand does not exist, the value is 0, if supply does not exist, the value is infinite. So if the DMG assumes a simple proportional rule for value, it assumes demand and supply. Simple.
Like it or not, it's part of the game.

This assumes that a game world would include the basis of supply and demand even though it is not in the rules. Which means you are basing a mannerism of attempting verisimilitude upon the game world despite that your last argument made a point to ignore such.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 05:25 AM
THE PARTY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO RUN!!! If that's your strategy, my current Warblade would kick you from the party after the first fight. The Beguiler would probably kill you in your sleep afterwards, and the CG Sorcerer would probably help him.

And 2 out of these 3 are once again from the realm of non-core...


I won't even mention what the Ninja would do. You're part of a team, and your actions need to be taken based on what the team needs.

Sigh. Scouting. Flanking. Help the Rogue sneak with (sometimes) suicidal grappling and stuns. Help the group with UMD (CLW). With STR 20 at level 8, he could carry Solo's Ozymandias to safety with his extra speed. Later he can do that with dim door (also dimdooring the full power attack barbarian next to the BBEG). Pass around the pearls of power as needed. Be the party face at high levels. Take out enemy spellcasters. etc.
The Joker may be evil, but not group-unfriendly, unlike...


Even the "God guide" said a lot of times that the meatshield and glass cannon would feel like they won the encounter with his tactics, and to let them, because, after all, you're god, and you can let the mortals have their glory. You know about it, and that's what matters.


Yes, that is the right attitude with other pcs and will get you many friends.:smallsmile:


The monk tactics you've listed wouldn't be beneficial to a party:
"Hey, caster, gimme a buff or 2, I need them to be effective."
*he buffs you, spending his class abilities*
"Ohsh-This enemy is buffed, let's retreat and wait it out"
"It's faster than the rest of us! We can't, we'll have to fight!"
"Screw you guys" *flees*


*flees* and carries party caster with him, thanks to his two STR-enhancing buff spells (bulls strength and enlarge). Or helps them all with total concealment for bottle. Or Grapples biggest enemy, taking hits while the others flee and THEN tumble away with superior speed.


In all honesty, the monk makes a great solo opponent for the party. As a DM, you can build a bit Schroedinger, it can survive and escape repeatedly, but it's not likely to kill any of the PCs with it's damage output, so it can be a great recurring Dragon. However, in a party, "survive" isn't enough to get you 1/4th of the loot. You have to contribute to do that. Great saves and a high move speed can help someone make it through anything,

Yep. Part of the guide is meant to cover that: provide challenging npcs for the DM.


but in a party enviroment, you have to stick together, and the monk can't do much to help actually "defeat" an encounter, just to escape it.

Read. The. Guide. And the example character. Level by level. Really.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 05:27 AM
I see. So, a monk using a 1st level spell wand is exactly as game-breaking/problematic as a commoner using a 9th level spell with odd spell interpretations? Hmmm. Does this sound odd to anyone else?

Is as gamebreaking as using Leadership, Polymorph, etc, etc.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 05:29 AM
Oh, Oh, Oh I get to do a Morbo!
COMBAT REFLEXES DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!
Charging doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity for you to use combat reflexes. You need Hold the Line, a non-core feat. Giamonk would run away.


No, he would not. Enlarged, the Joker has 10ft reach, meaning the charging attacker will trigger an AoO reaching the Joker. You even have -2 AC.

- Giacomo

Reinboom
2008-05-18, 05:31 AM
I see. So, a monk using a 1st level spell wand is exactly as game-breaking/problematic as a commoner using a 9th level spell with odd spell interpretations? Hmmm. Does this sound odd to anyone else?


"naw, this does not show commoners are good, it's just broken/stupid stuff.."


For the failure rate:
Show how. Exactly. Don't just say it can be. Exact builds, data, etc.
On everything. Everything needs to be directly supported. Others have shown their's.

Er...am I in the wrong thread? Hint: page 1: the guide.

I did, I see your builds - and I see that they are have a high failure rate with UMD. So those clearly are not the builds that would counter-argue to this.


On the obscuring mist:
The difference between 75% chance from a Monk and 95% chance from a Rogue is VERY significant. As is in comparison to all actions. Also, obscuring mist is a singular example, I would like to see more than that. We now have obscuring mist on the list - which is prime in it's own situational set up. However, more information is required than singular examples.

Yes, it is very significant. In that the rogue has a huge problem in the obscuring mist: his sneak attacks are blocked. So the mist and concealment is a monk blind-fight tactics, but never a rogue tactics.

I read the initial "escape pod" as "use obscuring mist to retreat". In the other situation, hey - since we are relying on fellow casters to do a lot of work for us.
Rogue: "Don't worry, I can use my obscuring mist successfully 5 times more often than the monk over there, I'm reliable for you, my wizard buddy, to provide cover for you to cloudkill in. Or whatever you do. While I go over here and flank with mr. warblade over there to get sneak attacks on the enemy left out of the mist!"

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 05:32 AM
I would like to intercept this portion, in saying there is an error in the argument itself that makes the proof faulty.
(...).

Yep - actually you are correct here. My argument was contradictory.

Still, the rules I quoted are even simpler:
Wands cost x. This is modified according to the rules I listed for partially charged wands. Availabiltiy is defined as per DMG. 137 Table on community gp limit.

It is really easy.

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 05:34 AM
*flees* and carries party caster with him, thanks to his two STR-enhancing buff spells (bulls strength and enlarge). Or helps them all with total concealment for bottle. Or Grapples biggest enemy, taking hits while the others flee and THEN tumble away with superior speed.

Take hits with d8 hit dies and moderate CON? Or does your monk have high Con (Ah ah ah! But no MAD!)

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-05-18, 05:35 AM
No, he would not. Enlarged, the Joker has 10ft reach, meaning the charging attacker will trigger an AoO reaching the Joker. You even have -2 AC.

- Giacomo
Like that matters, read this again please:


Provoking an Attack of Opportunity

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.
Moving

Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act


Emphasis mine.
Read this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) for reference

BTW would you please respond to my problems with your spellstaff trick?

Solo
2008-05-18, 05:39 AM
You mean...a non-caster should never be ever buffed by a spell? Because, you know, it is not a class ability.
You can't build around receiving buffs from others.

Well, that's not true. You can, you just shouldn't.



It was actually Reel on. Love's table and it by now got disproven (see above).
No, Talic's table, the one from a month or so ago. Another thread.



Flurried that's already 52.5 damage.
And with your medium BAB and medium or low STR, you are going to hit with all your attacks how?

By spending rounds pre-buffing, of course, while the enemy patiently waits.

And we assume that you get a full round's worth of actions.

And if you do, I'm pretty sure a power attacking barbarian will do more damage.



Against Ozymandias, the grapple is more than enough.
Assuming he isn't invisible, flying (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed offhand), Displaced, Blinking.....

____________________________

With regard to the Guide devoting a disproportionate amount of space to PvPing wizards,


Actually, I wrote about that nowhere in the guide, which is the funny part about it. You WISH to read it in there, although it is not there.



Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks
Making the Most of What you Have (When Casters Believe What They Have Is Already Ridiculously Good)


As a monk you’re – as Frank Miller would have paraphrased as well – the goddamn Joker!
Relying on tricks and unusual stuff to overcome the physically…er magically stronger Batman.


Some things that will help you in your noble quests to make life miserable for casters:


Basically, what would hurt casters most?



Normally stopping the spells/spellcasting of a caster means almost certain win.


This joker (or Giamonk) build is intended to be quite versatile, but with a bias to combat casters.

Reinboom
2008-05-18, 05:44 AM
Yep - actually you are correct here. My argument was contradictory.

Still, the rules I quoted are even simpler:
Wands cost x. This is modified according to the rules I listed for partially charged wands. Availabiltiy is defined as per DMG. 137 Table on community gp limit.

It is really easy.

- Giacomo

You are referencing a table that is an even weaker RAW holding than the magic item creation guidelines.
So, I will accept your argument, as the truth and ultimate raw - for I can clearly read the paragraph that followed from my open DMG.

However, I shall counter argument this example by declaring you to read the first few lines of generating towns for a counter "RAW" argument.

"When the PCs come into a town and you need to generate the facts about the town quickly, you can use the following material."

Thus, this only occurs in which cases the town has been generated by a DM short of time or was placed on the spot for a new town. In order to find if this argument is valuable, we will need, at minimum, a decent view of the average amount of times DMs have and how strongly they railroad. :smalltongue:

Reel On, Love
2008-05-18, 05:52 AM
Yep - actually you are correct here. My argument was contradictory.

Still, the rules I quoted are even simpler:
Wands cost x. This is modified according to the rules I listed for partially charged wands. Availabiltiy is defined as per DMG. 137 Table on community gp limit.

It is really easy.

- Giacomo

I'll get to the rest tomorrow (I do love how you simultaneously say the monk is better because he can flurry in a grapple, and use the NON-flurry value for his skill... and manage to assume that having +1 over an enemy is all it takes to render them totally helpless), but...

...no.
You're wrong.
Characters can be created with partially-charged wands, because they might have bought those wands and used them.

If you FIND a partially charged wand, you can sell it.

That is all the rules say.

Nowhere does it say that an existing character can buy wands with as many charges as you want. You made that up. You're frantically scrambling for justification, because your build depends so heavily on partially-charged wands.

There is not a supply of 1-charge wands. If you want a PHB item, a caster can make that item. All you gotta do is wait a few days.
If you want a 1-charge wand, someone has to make/buy a wand, use 49 charges, and then for some reason decide to sell the almost-empty 1-charge wand. This would never happen.

Trying to buy partially charged wands is throwing yourself at the mercy of the DM.

You're reaching for things like "logically" (it's not) and "supply and demand" (doesn't exist in D&D, prices are fixed; doesn't work the way you want it to) because you know the rules don't support you.
You KNOW this doesn't work. You KNOW no DM would let you buy wands with 1 charge even if it did work. So why don't you drop it already?

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-18, 05:59 AM
Read again what I wrote in the guide in the level 1 joker build section about this. It is a tough choice. But without improved grapple as a bonus feat, you simply will have to have a starting DEX of 15 (or you lose the feat enlarged), which costs a bit much from point buy.
Meanwhile, grappling is a great tactics for low-mid level against pretty much all opponetns. Stunning Fist, though, at low levels, is not such a great effect vs what it does at higher levels.
A possibly valid point; however I would argue that making an enemy lose his action is superior to making an enemy and yourself lose their actions, especially since Stunning Fist gives the opportunity to do that to multiple enemies, which Improved Grapple does not.

No. Rage gives +2, enlarge gives +5 to grapple.
You obviously are not familiar with barbarians. At level 15, he has Greater Rage. (And yes, a core barbarian would have the same thing.) It gives him +3; congratulations, using that wand gave you about a fifty percent chance to achieve parity. And if that high probability of your UMD check not working came into play, the monk is already dead.

Runescarred? Are you telling me that you think UMD is not good but come up with something non-core that emulates it more easily? Wow.
And a barbarian does not get as much out of divine power, which has been shown already countless times, simply because the barbarian already HAS full BAB. Plus likely already a permanent STR-boost item, which is occupied in the monk's case with a monk's belt.
Emulates UMD? No, it doesn't emulate UMD at all, since there's no failure chance; it's more akin to actually casting spells. Which, y'know, is the kind of thing this build is designed to defeat, and it can't. As for divine power, you're right about the BAB, but his belt slot is otherwise occupied as well, so it's still a cool STR boost.


Yes, great going. Unfortunately at that level (which I also pointed out in my guide. Read it guys, READ IT!), the monk can do x numbe of attacks and actually force your babarian to do FIVE fort saves in one hit, if he so wishes. All of a sudden you sweat a bit more not to roll that "1". And what is worse: the next round there will be 4 more saves coming. And so on. And so on.
If there is a next round. The damage averages say there won't be.



Yep. (see above).
And your babarian is not stopped dead in his tracks by total concealment? Hmmm.
I have no idea what a babarian is, but all total concealment does is reduce the barbarian's chances of hitting you to the same chance of you actually managing a UMD check. And since that concealment comes from blinking, of all things, the monk suffers a miss chance as well, and then suffers a second miss chance due to the (core) cloak of displacement.



You forget that meanwhile the monk also has full BAB thanks to divine power. So they are not that far apart. What is more, the monk has higher base damage which your babarian needs to equate with reducing his attack bonus for power attack. In core, that puts them around on more or less equal footing (although the barbarian, of course, has way more staying power in prolonged melee- which is OK because the monk has a different role).
You didn't show your work on your attack bonuses, and the line I was reading said it was with all buffs active. If it actually wasn't, you shouldn't have said that.



The monk is not fully buffed yet. And the mass of dice is quite reliable when you roll often enough...:smallsmile:
Ah, so a full attack, is it? That means you're still standing right there when Rraskinar wants to send one back your way. Have fun with that. :smallsmile:

Yeah, that's just non-core gravy.
Yeah, but the weapon property being non-core has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's base damage, which does not depend on the property at all, has already killed the monk. All Brutal Surge does is allow the weapon to initiate a bull rush, which (unless there's a nearby cliff) doesn't actually hurt the target.




While the Joker monk has blink up at that point (also providing +2 to hit the barbarian does not have).
A +2 to hit and a 20% miss chance for himself. That is, +10% on the die roll, but a 20% chance of missing no matter what the die says. Blink is a net loss for attacking; it's an excellent defensive spell, but the side effects make fighting back more, not less, difficult.



Yes, of course. Totally non-optimised.
And? It is. I put no extensive planning into this build at all; he progressed naturally over the course of a 1 to (so far; it isn't over yet) 15 campaign. Fully half his feats reflect honorary berserker lodge memberships and don't actually synergize with his build. If I wanted to sit down and build a straight barbarian with a coherent build strategy, his damage totals would be even higher.

And if you want to insist on core, it'd be even higher still, since I wouldn't be wasting money on the non-core properties and equipment you complained about... almost none of which actually affect his real primary combat ability; for the most part they're just cool toys. Brutal surge? He had that put on his axe because he's a bodyguard, if he wants someone to get away from his witch, then they're going away. It actually hurts him if he uses it in a toe to toe fight, since in that situation he wants his enemy to stay in front of him so he can wail on him some more. :smallamused:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-18, 06:02 AM
So if the DMG assumes a simple proportional rule for value, it assumes demand and supply. Simple.
Like it or not, it's part of the game.

Er ... no. The value in having 1 charge on a wand vs. 0 charges left on a wand, is far greater than the value on having 2 charges on a wand vs. having 1 charge on a wand.

Face it, Giacomo, you can either have the slightly arbitrary, simplified construct of the RAW - which doesn't allow you to actually buy these partial wands anywhere, even if you can start with them - or you have the RAI (and, to some extent, insofar as NPCs are treated the same under the rules as PCs, RAW) approach, which uses real economics, in which the relationship between charges and value is definitely not proportional.

Solo
2008-05-18, 06:25 AM
And the mass of dice is quite reliable when you roll often enough...
It reliably gets you the average value, yes...

Arbitrarity
2008-05-18, 06:46 AM
Huh. I learned something from this guide. I learned that dimension door only makes the caster unable to take actions until next turn. I never looked at that before.


For those batmen retreating to a MMM or tower (abandoning adventuring) the Joker would only say:
“I'm givin' away free money, and where is the Batman? He's at home washing his tights!”


Ah, so sleeping is abandoning adventure. It's a good thing your monk doesn't have to... wait...*assasinates GMonk*
Also, batman doesn't wash his tights. He has prestidigitation and a horde of servants.
Oh, maybe sleeping smartly is not adventuring. So adventuring consists of putting yourself in deliberate danger, so you can save up to two spell slots. In other words, adventurers are stupid.

Well, this follows with stereotypical viewpoints, I must admit :smallbiggrin:

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 06:46 AM
Ah, and the last for today - will need a longer break now and do some real life work done...



Wrong. Your guide is loaded with comments on how well a monk can beat casters. Very little is devoted to showing how the monk helps the party.

Perception is in the eye of the beholder (no, not that one...)

In fact, most of it is showing how the party helps the monk, to beat casters.

Yes. UMD is a typical skill that can only be used with the "help another" option...or wait...it isn't.

I understand if you're not 100% on it, it is 7 pages back. Feel free to review it and get back to me.

You advise me to read one of your posts way back showing what allegedly is written in my guide? Hmm. Will do it.

The majority of you OP is designed around the concept of "Monk vs caster". That is not "party contribution".

Because opponent casters are very rare, yes.

That's "monk > caster".

Nope, it is "monk > caster" in 50% of the times. Other times, the caster will beat the monk. It's called balance. Or, the monk is stronger vs casters, while the casters are in turn stronger than other classes. Close call.

Friendly reminder, stating that someone obviously didn't read what you wrote is a violation of board policies if I'm not mistaken. There's a forum rules thread at the top of the section that can give the specifics, I believe.

Talic, if you maintain that my build reaches safe UMD usage only at level 20 despite it being clearly written to be already so at level 15 to then fail to use his wand of enlarge - does this tell me that you have read my guide or not?
But OK, thanks for the hint, I'll abide by the rule and no longer maintain anyone has not read my guide when commenting on it.

Also, I'm not responding to what you "allegedly" said. I'm responding to Post 1 of this thread. It's a while back there, again, feel free to refresh yourself on it, as the thread has seemingly devolved into grappling discussion for some time.

Hmm. Maybe I misunderstand here.
Post one of this thread is the first part of my guide.
Post one of another posters is Nebo's short comment "Swordsages are better".
Do you mean your first post? Pls then point out to me what passage you mean where I should have a closer look again.

Accusation? Have I posted with any statements lauding one class over another here? No, I've debated your specific posts here. Nothing else.

OK. So you believe the monk is as good as the other (core) classes, and thus you differ only in my approach to show what can be done about that.
Welcome to the monk defense club, then!:smallsmile:

As actions are at a premium in combat, when the wizard uses a spell to buff the monk, the wizard is using his combat currency to help another class. The monk then does what he does. When the monk attacks, he's overcoming the challenge, with the wizard's assistance. The wizard is showing that he can help another class.

While the monk who made the (buffed) attack did not show anything? Imo an odd perception of how teamwork works.

Outside of combat and inside of combat are two totally different worlds. Outside, time is less regimented, and you have actions. In the typical combat, you have 3-5 standard actions to spend. The wizard must choose to do something with those actions, whether it's block LOS, grease an enemy, magic missile, web, or what. When he spends that action HELPING the monk, he isn't doing anything else. If he is giving up his ability to do nothing but assist the monk in doing his task, it's fair to say that the wizard is showing usefulness to the party, if that buff is effective.

Which is why I devoted so much effort in the guide to show that you should find alternatives to buffing IN combat at low levels. Meanwhile, lord_khaine pointed out the obvious help of (more expensive) potions of enlarge to overcome the main combat buff problem.

The monk isn't showing any more usefulness than anyone else, if that same spell could be applied to another class just as well. Let's say Barbarian. 18 str, 22 rage, 24 enlarge for a +14 total grapple mod, and with reach, won't provoke from most enemies.

A STR 18 barbarian? This seems to come at a cost somehwere. Let me see. Yes, likely that barbarian will not have a DEX of 15 necessary to keep the improved grapple feat in enlarged form. And why again should the barbarian devote ALL of his feats into an attacking form that makes least use out of his power attack option (least as in: NO use).?

Let's say fighter. 18 str,+2 enlarge, Improved grapple, for a total of +5 str +3 BAB +4 Size +4 Improved grapple or +16.

Now that is something better - because a fighter has the feats to spare. Still, the fighter falls behind the monk for the same MAD reasons (DEX 15 AND STR 18? So what kind of othter stats are there? The first Charm Person is going to take this guy out, worse, may turn him against the party).
No, for a fighter unarmed fighting may be one of various things to develop at later levels, but otherwise the weaponmaster of the game should also make use of said weapons. He'll never be able to outgrapple the Joker monk at high levels, for instance.

Both classes can do it just as well, if not better, with little effort. 18 str is something good for both classes anyway.

And not for the monk?

Now, in a perfect world, we'd have enough for everyone, but when the wizard has the choice between the 18str barbarian and the 14 str monk for that enlarge... `

No, the wizard should better somehow protect the barbarian vs falling victim to a charm spell, for instance with well-timed protection from evil.

Well, it doesn't show that the monk is bad. Just that the other class is better at that specific task. In any case, regardless of who that buff's on, the character's in the double digits anyway (though the fighter was already there, with +11 pre-boost). , so the wizard is the one aspect of that that can't change. Some classes are just more proficient at grappling. In this instance? The fighter can do that task best. Barbarian is second. Monk is third. The fighter has the best chance of doin' the dance without the buff tho.

No. Read the monk guide AGAIN (notice that this time I am not saying that you haven't read it at all :smallsmile:). The section monk myths where I show what the monk class does best. And grappling is among that.

18 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 cha used for both builds. 32 point build.

And whoops- the two guys lose the improved grapple feat in enlarge. And you compare 32 point buy to my 28 point buy, how neat! And btw they are dangerously specialised - they actually NEED the group around them all the time to not succumb to enemy spells and enemy ambushes.

Again, I read it fully. I just don't agree with it. Again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't levy that accusation. I find it personally insulting, to be honest.

OK. Although you have to admit that your following rebuttal of my lengthy work left me a bit...disappointed:


As for the rest? The majority of the concept of the post is a direct confrontation between classes, and as such, is limited in usefulness for practical character development. Expect a monk guide from me focusing on monk utility, versatility, and usefulness later on.

Plus, you set a not that friendly tone with "disassembly commences" at the start of your post. So I kindly ask you to also tone down a bit.

Non-caster classes need melee backup a good portion of the time. That doesn't explain why that melee backup should be the monk. The wizard is at his best when he makes the most out of what's available, whether its terrain, party members, or whatnot. The monk is at his best when the wizard's enhancing him. The difference is the wizard is proactively changing something. The monk is waiting to be changed before he does anything.

Hmmm. You now mean my monk build, do you? Not monks in general (because you seem to also believe monks are on equal footing to the other classes).
Anyhow, you have probably found out about my opinion on whether only wizards help the monk while the monk never is able to help the party wizard.

I did. Again. I did. My request on this has already been made. I'll leave it at that.

What was that request again?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but you're starting to. With an 18 cha, full level boosts into Cha, and skill focus, you'll get +19 two levels earlier. At level 19. If you want the MW Skill item? Note, that's for craft skills, and other items not listed are by DM approval, since they're not in core.
With a +6 Cha Item, it drops it lower. To level 14. That's about as low as you'll get, but you'll need a 36k item, whose only purpose is to make your disposable items more useful. It will succeed at that. Now you can spend round 1 of combats buffing yourself, while everyone else DOES something.

Ah, please have a look at my build of level 15. Imagine also the Joker using heroism with rod of extension way before combat. Tadaa...level 13. And I have shown already how you can get safe wand usage in combat even at level 9 in case you really need it (normally you would not).
As for the MW skill item, what does the PHB passage "This entry covers just about anything else." tell you? (PHB pp 130-131). Actually Reel on, Love, provided me in fairness with that idea in the first place in an earlier thread - and you can definitely not maintain he likes my wand Joker monk :smallbiggrin:

No, at some point I feel it's not worth the assets invested for the gain you receive. From what I've listed, the assets expended are:
50% of a 32 point buy's stats.
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
1/6 of the character's class based skill points.
2/3 of attribute boosts up to level 14
36,000 gp

All for the ability to reliably use wands.

Now, let's take a rogue, 14 Cha. (1/6 of class based skill points)
Max ranks in UMD (1/8 of class granted skill points)
1 feat (18.3% of feats)
No Attribute boosts
4,000 gp on a +2 cloak of cha

Achieves +19 UMD at level 10.
With more stats for good dex, good sneak attack, good hide abilities, attribute boosts, WBL for other things, etc.

Yes, the WBL needs the saved WBL for other things go to: dim door ability, save boost, poison proof, move enhancement and some way to escape grappling attacks except the sub-par escape artist way and tough spells.

Less investment, lower level, equal return. This is why it's good. Except the rogue will go for a wand of Reduce person, for extra dex, size to AC, and the like.

Yes, that's what he should do. The monk should use different things that synergise with that class. Each class to its speciality.

Sigh. I did. It's just rubbish information, that's all.

OK, I take issue with this one. "Rubbish information". You reprimand me for maintaining that you have not read the guide and you write stuff like that? Wow. Just wow.

Which is? I still fail to see anything that other classes can't do better.

Move. Grapple. Scout. Defense.

Wrong. Illegal targets fizzle spells. Reread section on "holding a charge". It doesn't mention an illegal target. Any touch will trigger it. Yeah.

Meaning actually that since a wizard at the low level he gets his touch spells will trigger them immediately because he touches the ground. Hmmm. You probably are alone in your interpretation here.
"Touch" actually means "touch attack".

Instead, relying on the wizard to make sure he stays viable, rather than make another party member or area of the battlefield control.

Why do you keep on posting that when the Joker uses UMD outside combat he needs a wizard? Yes, a wizard at one point in the past CREATED the wand, but this is also the case with magic weapons and armour.

I'll refer you to the SRD, Monk, skill list, look through several of the Dex and Str based skills. Many do require hands. Not all, certainly, but then, I never claimed that, did I?

No, you said "many".
Let us see...
Balance - can be used with hands full
Climb - ah, one skill that cannot be used with full hands. Guess it's the only one.
Concentration - can be used with hands full.
Craft - ah, cannot be used with hands full, although it is not exactly a monk's class skill, but almost everyone has it...
Diplomacy - can be usd with hands full.
Escape Artist - can be used with hands full.
Hide - can be used with hands full
Jump - can be used with hands full
Knowledge (any) - can be used with hands full
Listen - can be used with hands full
Move Silently - can be used with hands full.
Perform - can be used with hands full.
Profession - depends
Sense Motive - can be used with hands full.
Spot, Swim, Tumble - all can be used with hands full!

Yes, a great many. I see.:smallsmile:

That's not whining. Please do not use derogotory terms when referencing me. I find it offensive.

If you cease yours, the peace holds! (no, actually, I'll calm no matter what you post).

I find it odd that the monk requires those expendable items to function, and without them, is behind in many of his strategies. I'm stating that your idea for use of WBL, innovative as it is, is impractical, and not worth the expenditure of assets and resources to make it viable.

Hmmm. Casters have expandable resources/day, and yet no-one would think that is a problem (although in practice it is more often than many would admit).
1000 first level spell usages by level 10 is enough, I guess.

Stealth, the rogue outperforms.

Nope. The rogue may devote more to DEX (but likely less to WIS for spot/listen), but he lacks the movement enhancement that makes the monk scouting so highly useful.

The monk has dim door. That's it. It doesn't get the party anywhere though. It's a "me only" ability... Which is of limited use to the party, beyond perhaps lowering a rope down afterwards... Which could have been taken care of with less resource loss if the wizard levitated the rogue or other class. Again, teamwork is key.

No, you can take someone with you in a dimdoor. At 12th level, you can bring along 2 medium creatures, four if the party has reduced size for some reason...

Though animals and vermin scale for their HD faster than the monk keeps up too.

Yep, but you can have some wand charges with hide from animals and repel vermin for those rare occasions that they turn up.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the wizard shows his usefulness for the party by what he, and only he, can do.

I never doubted that a wizard can contribute to a party.

The monk has yet to show that.

Well, since you apparently believe the monk can keep up, if built in a different way, I am looking forward to your monk guide.

That's an awfully expensive buff to be rebuying daily.

What makes you think he'll cast an AMF on a daily basis? Silence is enough in most cases.

Again, competing against a specific thing. Batman.

Yep, vs the npc kind. (check my introduction)

That's the DM villain concept, not the PC concept. Though the wand of greater heroism + the other resources + the scroll? A LOT of WBL for that 1 use ability. And I won't get into AMF = win. There are too many variables to predict such a thing.

Around 1,740 gp per usage. If the spellstaff trick would be allowed, it costs much less (90 gp).

Thus, there is some sense in the item purchase choices.

Thanks.

I never stated anything of the sort. I'm showing that, if the buffs are so necessary as to justify devoting massive assets to it, a cost effective way to ensure you receive it is to allow the wizard to help you at little cost to himself. More cost effective, and accomplishes the same goal. Still, again, this is better performed by other classes, and the only thing needed is the caster.

Which is a longer way of stating what I said, thanks. "The only thing needed is the caster." means exactly what I wrote. You basically advise going away from the UMD idea and go exclusively to the pc caster for help, at which point you would say "joker relies on caster". Nice try.:smallsmile:

Points made above for that.And, as I outlined, your numbers are off. The bit by bit amount is not difficult to track. I did it for levels 1-20 in 5 minutes. Applies equally to all classes. Multiply the average wealth gained per encounter by 14. From that, subtract (WBL of higher level - WBL of lower level.) That's your disposable WBL, or the amount the game expects you to spend when you adventure. Spending more puts you under WBL. By dismissing it as overly complicated, you fail to take into account that it is correct, and it directly refutes your numbers.

Hmmm. Let us see. 1000 first level spells by level 10. This is 140 encounters, according to your calculations. Meaning 140 Enlarges can be cast.
That leaves plenty of usages for other occasions, or multiple buffs for one encounter (say, a shield wand on top of the enlarge...). Or higher level wand buffs like silence and heroism.
And this does not even count that at low levels, some encounters are also traps which the joker monk can survive/trigger quite well, without any buffs.

Any action wasted in combat? Wasted. If you're restricting yourself to out of combat only?

Yes, but I posted in this post, previous posts and the original guide the great many things you can do already outside combat.

Don't count on Enlarge Person before level 14.

With potions, I can.

Wrong. If the Fighter buys a +1 sword, and hits 50 things with it, it's still worth 2300 gp and change.Absolutely no disposable income lost.

Yes, but both characters will have cleared their encounters and contributed. It does not matter if at the end of the adventuring life, the character can hang the sword +1 on the wall or an empty wand.

If a monk buys a wand of enlarge, and over 4 levels, uses it, he's out 750gp of disposable wealth.

Yes. Your point being?

This is why you're wrong. You fail to grasp that you'll use your WBL faster than the core rules expect you to, putting you behind the curve for WBL at upper levels.

No, you still fail to see how much can be done already with level 1 wands.

Because, by your bolded text in my initial post, UMD is a key feature of the class. For brevity, and time, I restricted myself to that. Not because I didn't read it.

Maybe you wish to comment on the other 95%?

I got a laugh. Does that count?

Yes, it would count in your book as offensive.:smallsmile:

Some things will likely bear reprinting, however, all research is independently derived, and is not being made from the same point of view as you. I fail to see how you'll draw too awfully much from it.

So you basically say I made up the guide of thin air?
The sources I used:
- SRD/core rules.
- hundreds of posts in the past year.

But I'm looking forward to your guide!

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 06:55 AM
BTW would you please respond to my problems with your spellstaff trick?

I did, I think, way up. Basically, I could understand why a DM would not allow the spellstaff trick.
And the charging opponent leavesl the square 10ft away from the monk, so this triggers an AoO before he actually reaches the 5ft square.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 07:06 AM
A possibly valid point; however I would argue that making an enemy lose his action is superior to making an enemy and yourself lose their actions, especially since Stunning Fist gives the opportunity to do that to multiple enemies, which Improved Grapple does not.

Yes, but only round, after round, and only to one at a time. But I also see your point - it's a close call for 1st level monks, and I guess for the grappling tactics it's better to take the improved grapple as bonus feat.

You obviously are not familiar with barbarians. At level 15, he has Greater Rage. (And yes, a core barbarian would have the same thing.) It gives him +3; congratulations, using that wand gave you about a fifty percent chance to achieve parity. And if that high probability of your UMD check not working came into play, the monk is already dead.

? +5 vs +3 sounds still like advantage joker here. At level 15, the joker monk can safely use his wand in combat, and the divine power likely is also up (since the monk will notice the barbarian way before the other way round, the spot/hide duel and all).

Emulates UMD? No, it doesn't emulate UMD at all, since there's no failure chance; it's more akin to actually casting spells. Which, y'know, is the kind of thing this build is designed to defeat, and it can't. As for divine power, you're right about the BAB, but his belt slot is otherwise occupied as well, so it's still a cool STR boost.

Yes, it's better than UMD. As a non-caster, you get to cast spells with this non-core thing.

If there is a next round. The damage averages say there won't be.

Well, truth to tell, the ideal of the monk is not to go to lengthly melee vs a barbarian. And that was never the intention - as outlined in the guide.

I have no idea what a babarian is, but all total concealment does is reduce the barbarian's chances of hitting you to the same chance of you actually managing a UMD check.

The blink effect is from the ring that is cheaper than your cloak of displacement that lasts only 15 rounds that day - with his higher move, the monk can wait that out.

And since that concealment comes from blinking, of all things, the monk suffers a miss chance as well, and then suffers a second miss chance due to the (core) cloak of displacement.

Yes, that's true. So even more incentive to wait out the buff.

You didn't show your work on your attack bonuses, and the line I was reading said it was with all buffs active. If it actually wasn't, you shouldn't have said that.


Well, it is not with all buffs, though with the decisive ones. So I should have been clearer there. The monk has two more attacks at the highest bonus, and one overall more attack. It is difficult to say whether the barbarian makes up for that with his STR advantage (and power attack for the attacking difference).

Ah, so a full attack, is it? That means you're still standing right there when Rraskinar wants to send one back your way. Have fun with that. :smallsmile:

Since a barbarian has more hp, similar AC and similar damage output, yes, the barbarian would win a lengthy melee. Which is a good thing, otherwise the monk would be too powerful imo.

Yeah, but the weapon property being non-core has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's base damage, which does not depend on the property at all, has already killed the monk. All Brutal Surge does is allow the weapon to initiate a bull rush, which (unless there's a nearby cliff) doesn't actually hurt the target.

Yep, non-core feats can do a lot.

A +2 to hit and a 20% miss chance for himself. That is, +10% on the die roll, but a 20% chance of missing no matter what the die says. Blink is a net loss for attacking; it's an excellent defensive spell, but the side effects make fighting back more, not less, difficult.

No. It cuts down enemy attacks by 50%, own attacks only by 20%. Combined with, say, concealment from eversmoking bottle and the blind-fight feat, the monk is quite superior against many opponents (the barbarian with cloak of displacement not one of them, though).

And? It is. I put no extensive planning into this build at all; he progressed naturally over the course of a 1 to (so far; it isn't over yet) 15 campaign. Fully half his feats reflect honorary berserker lodge memberships and don't actually synergize with his build. If I wanted to sit down and build a straight barbarian with a coherent build strategy, his damage totals would be even higher.

Yep, a non-core build sometimes simply jumps out of the book at you.

And if you want to insist on core, it'd be even higher still, since I wouldn't be wasting money on the non-core properties and equipment you complained about... almost none of which actually affect his real primary combat ability; for the most part they're just cool toys. Brutal surge? He had that put on his axe because he's a bodyguard, if he wants someone to [I]get away from his witch, then they're going away. It actually hurts him if he uses it in a toe to toe fight, since in that situation he wants his enemy to stay in front of him so he can wail on him some more. :smallamused: [/I

Yep, as a I admitted - the barbarian is a stronger meleer over time than the monk. As he should be.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 07:18 AM
You can't build around receiving buffs from others.

Well, that's not true. You can, you just shouldn't.

That is what UMD is for: to showcase that it there is a degree of independence from casters.

No, Talic's table, the one from a month or so ago. Another thread.

Please link it - I vaguely remember it as showing CR 6 creatures committing the same mistake that you once did trying to prove that many creatures have fire resistance and higher levels. Basically, you always have to build a ratio of those creatures able to outgrapple the monk to those who are not. And the npc humanoid casters that many DMs employ are always grappable until fom becomes common.
This is also the reason why I included in my guide a tactics change around level 8-9.

And with your medium BAB and medium or low STR, you are going to hit with all your attacks how?

Buffing. Flanking. Surprising (no DEX to AC) Touching (Grapple). It's not that at level 10, all CR 7-10 creatures are immune to grappling all of a sudden. The majority can still be grappled.

By spending rounds pre-buffing, of course, while the enemy patiently waits.

Yep, patiently, oblivious to the stealthy monk able to close to combat quickly with his high move.

And we assume that you get a full round's worth of actions.

Yep. This is common for a full attack.
Meanwhile, even one hit with a 3d8+4 and no-save ghoul's touch can take you quite far. Batman trying to do the same to the Joker, though, will have to suffer one AoO to even reach the enlarged monk AND overcome his higher touch AC.

And if you do, I'm pretty sure a power attacking barbarian will do more damage.

Yes, and he should. Because that is his niche.

Assuming he isn't invisible, flying (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed offhand), Displaced, Blinking.....

Yep, that is for levels 9 & up. Even the Joker can shoot the phantom steed from underneat the arcane caster, and then with his fly+monk enhancement bonus speed guess who is faster?
Displaced, blinking...sounds like a movie title, but not something that will help the caster much since it is only rounds/level. And cuts only 50% of a potential full attack.

Do not get me wrong here. It is not that I say that an arcane caster has no chance vs the Joker, at no levels. The only thing I say the Joker will always have a chance to beat him.

____________________________

With regard to the Guide devoting a disproportionate amount of space to PvPing wizards,

Yes, keep repeating it without being able to prove it. The stuff you quoted says nothing about pc casters. But if you intend to interpret it this way despite my clear statement in the introduction, you are free to do so.

OK, that's it for today.


- Giacomo

PS: since we apparentyl cannot agree on the partial wands viability, let us henceforth assume two campaigns: one where it is possible, one where it is not.
In the campaign where only fully charged wands are available basically it means the Joker monk will use enlarge from wands and spells from wands from level 4 and up. Enlarge potions before that. 2 levels difference. Is this really going to matter that much?
Silence this way becomes available around level 8, instead of level 3. Now that is much more of a difference, although it is a spell that can be cast outside the monk and makes great synergy with his fast movement.
Hope this calms that issue.

Solo
2008-05-18, 07:40 AM
Yep, that is for levels 9 & up.

And since we're talking about a level 10 build, entirely appropriate.


Even the Joker can shoot the phantom steed from underneat the arcane caster
1d2 damage ftw!


and then with his fly+monk enhancement bonus speed guess who is faster?
Phantom steed gets 200 feet move at level 10. How fast is your monk moving?


Please link it - I vaguely remember it as showing CR 6 creatures committing the same mistake that you once did trying to prove that many creatures have fire resistance and higher levels. Basically, you always have to build a ratio of those creatures able to outgrapple the monk to those who are not.
I can't find it again, but as I recall, it showed that a substantial percentage would out-grapple you.



Buffing. Flanking. Surprising (no DEX to AC) Touching (Grapple). It's not that at level 10, all CR 7-10 creatures are immune to grappling all of a sudden. The majority can still be grappled.
Numbers, please?


Yep, patiently, oblivious to the stealthy monk able to close to combat quickly with his high move.

Assuming you can hide in the terrain, and the enemy doesn't notice you trying to activate a plethora of items.



Yep. This is common for a full attack.
And how common are full attacks?


Yes, keep repeating it without being able to prove it. The stuff you quoted says nothing about pc casters.
Alright, I think I mis-spoke. I meant you devoted a lot of the guide to taking out wizards. I was using the term PvP too loosely.



Meanwhile, even one hit with a 3d8+4 and no-save ghoul's touch can take you quite far. Batman trying to do the same to the Joker, though, will have to suffer one AoO to even reach the enlarged monk AND overcome his higher touch AC.
Batman isn't going to try to Ghoul Touch the Joker. He's going to toss out a Baleful Polymorph and laugh as you fail the save. (Remember how at level 10, you have a 70% chance to fail the save? Have fun with that.)

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-18, 07:43 AM
Two things: First, how does the Giamonk plan on waiting out a lesser cloak of displacement? Unlike the greater version, they last all day. Secondly, +5 is more than +3, but since the barbarian's grapple modifier starts off higher to begin with, you're going to need more. Coincidentally, the difference at the level I was discussing is 2, so adding 3 to the barbarian and 5 to the monk gives them parity, which is what I said.

As for the prestige class giving him casting, it's not exactly the same - it works more like having scrolls scribed on his body; he just doesn't have to make a check to use them (and it costs him gold and XP to make them, just like scribing scrolls) - but there are core prestige classes that also give casting; this is not a feature unique to non-core material. Blackguard and assassin do the same thing, and actually do it better, since they give actual spell progression.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-18, 07:43 AM
You can't rely on fighting casters all the time, Gia, that's the trouble, and that's why people don't play spellthieves.

Let us look at the various 'boss monsters' for the published, core, adventures:


Expedition to Castle Ravenloft - Strahd. Caster, but also a nasty vampire. AH-AH-AH-AH-HAH!
Expedition to Undermountain - LOL TRAPS.
Barrow of the Forgotten King - Yuan-ti sorcerer. Caster.
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk - OK, some casters - false Iggwilv and co. are fairly nasty, but they're mostly clerics.
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits - Aspects of Demons. A ton of them. Some SLAs but emphatically not casters.
Fortress of the Yuan-ti - Living Evard's Black Tentacles, Yuan-ti halfblood. Not casters.
Red Hand of Doom - Aspect of Tiamat. Not a caster.
Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard - some outsiders. Some SLAs, sure, mostly really nasty combat monsters.
Sinister Spire - Medusa/Yuan-ti halfblood. Not a caster.

The wonders of one's parents running a bookshop is that you can sneak looks at books you'd never buy.

Also, :smallconfused: at the number of Yuan-ti?

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 07:48 AM
Ah one more, because imo it is one of the more unfair posts in this thread....


Open and shut. All arguements have been refuted, all qualifications, codified. He has been mathematically, logically, and to all depths and reaches of human understanding disproven, and I would like to provide you with this from the past...

[...inserts own comment from last year forecasting I never change my mind...]

It is more akin to watching the man on the street corner, ranting as to how the government is trying to spy upon his teeth, how the Venusians are monitoring his thoughts through Starbucks instore Wifi, and how Moon Ghosts are endevouring to keep him from being employable.

By which, I mean, Street Theater.

Yes, Bassetking, that is a way to discuss. You appear not to have changed your opinion one iota since, it appears. New evidence is piled up in front of you? Ignore mode, that's the way to do things...
But that's OK with me- you see, you lost all credibiltiy in discussing monks when you did builds with incorporal races and lawful bane weapons to defeat my monk :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

PS @Solo:
- a crossbow bolt is 1d8 damage, 2d6 enlarged. And be warned to use a phantom steed (superior move) to evade combat and come back with a vengeance - Kurald Galain does not approve of such tactics...:smallsmile:
- I would be glad, if you could check how much % of creatures the monk of my proposed build can take on by level 10. I did it for level 3, level 6 and 10. Thanks for your help! (you can use the link I provided further up).
- yes, full attack is quite rare.
- thanks for abandoning the notion that I posted a PvP guide.
- for a baleful polymorph, the caster needs to be within range (45 ft) to cast it, then he needs to be able to target (the monk has the bottle and his better move and will win the spot/hide contest, so it's going to be difficult) AND the monk has to fail BOTH fort and will save to be completely out of the game - do not forget the killer rabbit example...:smallcool:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-18, 07:50 AM
Medium BAB and nonproficiency... you're not gonna hit much with that crossbow.

Solo
2008-05-18, 07:51 AM
New evidence is piled up in front of you? Ignore mode, that's the way to do things...

Lulz.


That is what UMD is for: to showcase that it there is a degree of independence from casters.

UMD? The same UMD that you can't get off reliably at lower levels? The same UMD tha tburns a hole through your pocket throughout your entire career? That UMD?


And be warned to use a phantom steed (superior move) to evade combat and come back with a vengeance - Kurald Galain does not approve of such tactics..
To hell with evading, I'm going to fly above my enemies and taunt them, stay our of their reach of they come at me, and cast Baleful Polymorph on them from a distance.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 07:54 AM
UMD? The same UMD that you can't get off reliably at lower levels? The same UMD tha tburns a hole through your pocket throughout your entire career? That UMD?

Yep, That UMD that will cost cash and yield great reward and synergy. 1000 castings by level 10. It's enough. That UMD that you can do so many things with even casting outside combat.


To hell with evading, I'm going to fly above my enemies and taunt them, stay our of their reach of they come at me, and cast Baleful Polymorph on them from a distance.

Yep, do that. Outcome uncertain, though.

- Giacomo

Kurald Galain
2008-05-18, 07:55 AM
- a crossbow bolt is 1d8 damage, 2d6 enlarged. And be warned to use a phantom steed (superior move) to evade combat and come back with a vengeance - Kurald Galain does not approve of such tactics...:smallsmile:


Do not presume to speak for me. It is generally considered very rude and condescending to put words into somebody's mouth.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 07:57 AM
Medium BAB and nonproficiency... you're not gonna hit much with that crossbow.

The phantom steed's AC is 18. That's a good chance to hit with the +9 crossbow attack bonus of the enlarged monk at level 10.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 07:58 AM
Do not presume to speak for me. It is generally considered very rude and condescending to put words into somebody's mouth.

So you approve of tactics to evade an opponent with a higher movement?

- Giacomo

Solo
2008-05-18, 07:58 AM
UNARMED ATTACK: +10 (+10/+10/+5); Damage 2d8 +3, 3d8+4 enlarged
This is at level 10, pre buffed.

+3 from Str, +7 from BaB. Divine Power gets you +13 total by giving you better BaB.

A melee build will generally have more than that: Barbarians with 20 STR and maybe a item of +4 will have 10+5+2+2(raging)=19.

A Fighter might have the Weapon Focus tree, giving him roughly the same attack bonus.

6 points of difference. You're outclassed.

Solo
2008-05-18, 08:00 AM
The phantom steed's AC is 18. That's a good chance to hit with the +9 crossbow attack bonus of the enlarged monk at level 10.

- Giacomo

Of course, you'll be about 50-200 feet away from it, so I'd factor that into your calculations.

And while you're plinking at it with roughly a 50% chance of hitting, I'll be casting Baleful Polymorph on you.


Yep, do that. Outcome uncertain, though.

I have a 70% chance of turning you into a squirrel.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-18, 08:00 AM
The phantom steed's AC is 18. That's a good chance to hit with the +9 crossbow attack bonus of the enlarged monk at level 10.

- Giacomo

60% is not a "good chance"

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 08:00 AM
You can't rely on fighting casters all the time, Gia, that's the trouble, and that's why people don't play spellthieves.

Actually the build does not "rely" on that. It is in addition to filling the party role of a monk as outlined by the PHB.

And with that, at long last, I conclude for today.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-18, 08:03 AM
Only Solo can raise me back from the dea...er work.:smallsmile:


This is at level 10, pre buffed.

+3 from Str, +7 from BaB. Divine Power gets you +13 total by giving you better BaB.

A melee build will generally have more than that: Barbarians with 20 STR and maybe a item of +4 will have 10+5+2+2(raging)=19.

A Fighter might have the Weapon Focus tree, giving him roughly the same attack bonus.

6 points of difference. You're outclassed.

Yes. At level 10, when I said in the build and guide that the monk will rely on stealth tactics instead of full combat.

Again:
Level 1-8 Grapple tactics for combat
Levels 9-10 Stealth/scout tactics with occasional fighting
Levels 11& up: Back in business with monk's belt for combat (though not better than the other non-casters, would be strange if it were so), and still good for scout/stealth/fighting casters.

- Giacomo

Spiryt
2008-05-18, 08:03 AM
+3 from Str, +7 from BaB. Divine Power gets you +13 total by giving you better BaB.


The main thing I do not understand in that all, is Divine Power:

1 - Why monk should have it casted on himself?
2- Why Fighter/Ranger/Commoner13/Halfling Emu Raider 9 can't have it too, thus making no difference ?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-18, 08:07 AM
Wait, that's not +9.

7 [BAB] + 2 [Dex] - 1 [Size] - = +8 to hit an 18 AC. 10-20 hits, 55% chance.

There goes your "good chance" to hit with that crossbow.

EDIT: Oops, I guess monks are proficient with crossbows. Fixed