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Cuddly
2008-05-17, 10:05 PM
Maybe around level 8 to 12?
He did everything well, and clearly had intimidate, bluff and diplomacy as class skills. He didn't cast many powerful spells, he was proficient in hand to hand combat, always striking things in vulnerable places. Despite not wearing armor or carrying a shield, he never got hit much, either.

Thoughts?

Corolinth
2008-05-17, 10:08 PM
Gandalf was a demigod.

The reason he didn't sling around "powerful spells" is because that's not how magic works in Middle Earth.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 10:09 PM
Maybe around level 8 to 12?
He did everything well, and clearly had intimidate, bluff and diplomacy as class skills. He didn't cast many powerful spells, he was proficient in hand to hand combat, always striking things in vulnerable places. Despite not wearing armor or carrying a shield, he never got hit much, either.

Thoughts?

Probably. Factotum is the elegant way of picturing a character who is good at just about everything he or she tries. Thus the reason Batman and Indiana Jones are base Factotums, and The Taskmaster is a classic example. They cna do everything.

Cuddly
2008-05-17, 10:12 PM
Gandalf was a demigod.

The reason he didn't sling around "powerful spells" is because that's not how magic works in Middle Earth.

Depends on whether you think gandalf was an NPC or a PC.

Corolinth
2008-05-17, 10:13 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiar

He was the exact same rank of being as Sauron, incidentally.

Cuddly
2008-05-17, 10:13 PM
Probably. Factotum is the elegant way of picturing a character who is good at just about everything he or she tries. Thus the reason Batman and Indiana Jones are base Factotums, and The Taskmaster is a classic example. They cna do everything.

Neither of those guys can cast spells; don't think factototum would fit them. Indiana Jones is a rogue or unarmed swordsage. Batman might be an artificer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiar

Fluff. (http://www.kidsentertainmentbusiness.com/i/cotton_candy_machine_1.jpg)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 10:15 PM
Corolinth: who gives a rats ass about the fluff?

We're trying to stat Gandalf, not to evade the issue. And for crunch purposes, yes, he is a factotum with full FoI, in E6. Which means he is unsurprisingly the most powerful good guy on the world, since a Factotum with three FoI's dominates E6, and even more if he has Flaws.

Cuddly: Of course. I don't mean to EXACTLY depict them with that class. Just to use it because it represents the man who does everything well, just not EXCELLENT. Which is what Factotum does, and all the examples are all rounders (Not to mention Batman fits Factotum to a T, being a gigantic brain who defeats opponents with wits and not brute force, with the spells representing gadgets in a straight up, non rediculous fight).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-17, 10:16 PM
Gandalf was a GMNPC whose character sheet was left blank until he had to do something, at which point he suddenly had enough Ranger levels to OTWF with a staff and sword.

Waffles
2008-05-17, 10:32 PM
Lord of the Rings is nothing but fluff. Tolkien never sat down and said "WELL I GUESS GANDALF WAS A FACTOTUM WITH AN INT SCORE OF 23 AND FRODO WAS A COMMONER 3 LOLLOLOL"

You're taking the "fluff" and attempting to extract things from it that were never present in it. It's an exercise doomed to failure.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-05-17, 10:32 PM
Gandalf was a demigod.

The reason he didn't sling around "powerful spells" is because that's not how magic works in Middle Earth.

Spot on, and for once it was so early on in this (weekly) thread.

For the record, though, Gandalf is a level 40 (50 as the White) Maiar (istar) Magician. He casts spells at level 80 (120 as the White). This is, of course, in Rolemaster, where the higher your level is, the smaller the difference.

Curiously enough, the extensive Rolemaster spell lists do an infinitely better job at modelling Middle-Earth magic than D&D... oh, wait, Rolemaster was built around MERP. That explains it. It's not perfect, but most of the magic is more "amazing things I can do" (like Aragorn's ESP-level tracking and Legolas' running over snow; both being actual spells available in RM) than about shooting fireballs and flying.

For comparison, Manwe and Morgoth are level 500, the Balrog of Moria is level 36 (casts at level 60), Legolas was level 28 during LotR, the hobbits were like level 5 by the end of LotR, and Aragorn was probably around level 20 (I don't have Lords of Middle Earth Vol. II).


He was the exact same rank of being as Sauron, incidentally.

Well, there's only two "ranks" to begin with - Valar and Maiar. The Istari were among the weakest of Maiar, equal to such minor fire-spirits as the Balrog (as the duel proved). Major fire-spirits would be someone like Arien, who pilots the Sun. Tom Bombadil is a lot more powerful than Gandalf (and probably more powerful than Sauron), but only in his Old Forest. Sauron, naturally, overpowers all the Istari, even without his ring - although it's less about personal power and more about the way he uses his influence. Saruman might have rivalled him in influence eventually.

Vexxation
2008-05-17, 10:43 PM
Yeah, on the stuff about Gandalf never getting hit: When were Legolas, Aragorn, or even Merri and Pip ever really wounded?

They all had exceptional dodging skill.
They all one-shot killed plenty of enemies.
The reason: They were fighting like level one orcs! Probably not even trained enough to be considered Fighters. And definitely not wearing +1 anything. So they had an attack bonus of like +5, with one attack per round. How hard is that to avoid, if you're a competent hero?

Besides, Gandalf had a divine purpose for existing, precisely why his duel with the Balrog didn't kill him. He just wasn't done yet, and couldn't be allowed to slip away. So yeah, Demigod is probably the best way to stat him. He's just on a level so far above anyone else that it makes sense that he'd be nigh-invulnerable.

Aquillion
2008-05-17, 10:53 PM
Besides, Gandalf had a divine purpose for existing, precisely why his duel with the Balrog didn't kill him. He just wasn't done yet, and couldn't be allowed to slip away. So yeah, Demigod is probably the best way to stat him. He's just on a level so far above anyone else that it makes sense that he'd be nigh-invulnerable.That sounds more like DMPC than Demigod to me (not that there's much difference.) He just makes all his rolls behind the screen and, surprise, nothing hits!

Cuddly
2008-05-17, 11:05 PM
Lord of the Rings is nothing but fluff. Tolkien never sat down and said "WELL I GUESS GANDALF WAS A FACTOTUM WITH AN INT SCORE OF 23 AND FRODO WAS A COMMONER 3 LOLLOLOL"

You're taking the "fluff" and attempting to extract things from it that were never present in it. It's an exercise doomed to failure.

No, you're an exercise doomed to failure LLOLLOLOLLLOLLOL!~~~~~!!1

[edit]
What I'm trying to say is:
you totally don't get it. That's nice, but next time, don't be so rude.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 11:07 PM
I wouldn't even have answered. I think he was taking a potshot at me and my comment of "Who gives a rats ass about fluff?". Notice I olympically ignored him, because some people are beneath my notice.

Chronos
2008-05-18, 12:55 AM
Which means he is unsurprisingly the most powerful good guy on the world, since a Factotum with three FoI's dominates E6,I'm not seeing it... What are you burning all that inspiration on, without Cunning Surge?


Well, there's only two "ranks" to begin with - Valar and Maiar. The Istari were among the weakest of Maiar, equal to such minor fire-spirits as the Balrog (as the duel proved). Major fire-spirits would be someone like Arien, who pilots the Sun. Tom Bombadil is a lot more powerful than Gandalf (and probably more powerful than Sauron), but only in his Old Forest. Sauron, naturally, overpowers all the Istari, even without his ring - although it's less about personal power and more about the way he uses his influence. Saruman might have rivalled him in influence eventually.Well, there's only two ranks of Ainur, but there are more than two ranks of beings, total. Above all, of course, is Illuvatar. Then you've got the two different ranks of Ainur, then the Children of Illuvatar, then the other Peoples, and then all the other creatures. Plus there are the fey, most of whom seem to be somewhere between the Children and the Maiar in power (though Ungoliant seems to have rivaled even the Valar).

And then there's Tom Bombadil. It's not really fair to say that Tom is more powerful than Gandalf. Nobody is more powerful than Bombadil, but Bombadil isn't more powerful than anyone else, either. Power is simply irrelevant to him.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-18, 03:22 AM
Tolkien's books clearly state that Gandalf is a wizard; indeed, he is one of the archetypes on which the D&D wizard class was based in the first place. So no, he's not a factotum. He does, however, probably have a high-LA racial template that accounts for e.g. his diplomatic ability.

Newtkeeper
2008-05-18, 08:21 AM
Fluff. (http://www.kidsentertainmentbusiness.com/i/cotton_candy_machine_1.jpg)

But no. Gandalf's Maiarness is not fluff, it is (along with an Elven ring) the source of much of his power.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-18, 11:36 AM
I'm not seeing it... What are you burning all that inspiration on, without Cunning Surge?

Well, there's only two ranks of Ainur, but there are more than two ranks of beings, total. Above all, of course, is Illuvatar. Then you've got the two different ranks of Ainur, then the Children of Illuvatar, then the other Peoples, and then all the other creatures. Plus there are the fey, most of whom seem to be somewhere between the Children and the Maiar in power (though Ungoliant seems to have rivaled even the Valar).

And then there's Tom Bombadil. It's not really fair to say that Tom is more powerful than Gandalf. Nobody is more powerful than Bombadil, but Bombadil isn't more powerful than anyone else, either. Power is simply irrelevant to him.

Dodging every hit, landing every strike, and gutting everything with SA damage. Given that most of LoTR's battles feature many mooks and not a few credibly threats, it works out nicely.

Oh, and casting. Of course.

Uncle Festy
2008-05-18, 12:54 PM
Sounds reasonable.
If he wasn't specifically described as a wizard, I'd say yes for sure.
But I dunno.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-18, 02:19 PM
He also has a Magic MacGuffin Ring that does... stuff.

Does it actually say anywhere in LotR what Gandalf's Elven-Ring does?

Drider
2008-05-18, 03:29 PM
He also has a Magic MacGuffin Ring that does... stuff.

Does it actually say anywhere in LotR what Gandalf's Elven-Ring does?

Nothing past the fact that people put them on their fingers. at least nothing i recall. It's called a firey elven ring sometimes tho.

Indon
2008-05-18, 03:31 PM
Fluff. (http://www.kidsentertainmentbusiness.com/i/cotton_candy_machine_1.jpg)

Racial Hit Dice.

Chronos
2008-05-18, 03:41 PM
When Cirdan gives Gandalf his ring, he tells him "Take this ring, the Ring of Fire, that with it you rekindle hearts that have grown cold.", which sounds like an apt description of Gandalf's interactions with Theoden. Beyond that, there's nothing explicit, but many have noted that Gandalf was known, even among the wizards, for specializing in fiery effects, which may not be coincidence.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-05-18, 04:47 PM
Besides, Gandalf had a divine purpose for existing, precisely why his duel with the Balrog didn't kill him.

It did kill him, though, insofar as any Maiar can be killed - his fana, or earthly form, was destroyd, and his spirit returned to the West. When Saruman dies, his spirit attempts to, but a wind blows from the West, scattering it - he was fallen, and nothing bound him to the world, so he was refused. Sauron's fana was destroyed a few times, but so long as the One Ring existed, he was bound to Middle Earth and could return to it and reform himself.


When Cirdan gives Gandalf his ring, he tells him "Take this ring, the Ring of Fire, that with it you rekindle hearts that have grown cold.", which sounds like an apt description of Gandalf's interactions with Theoden. Beyond that, there's nothing explicit, but many have noted that Gandalf was known, even among the wizards, for specializing in fiery effects, which may not be coincidence.

That, and Gandalf's magic is obviously of two kinds - first there's inspiration (which is quite subtle; but Middle-Earth magic is like that), and then there's fire and light (his fireworks, for instance, were obviously magical; his ability to blow not just smoke-rings, but smoke-elven-ships-sailing-through-smoke-rings, is clearly another hint at his powers; he blows up a bunch of goblins in The Hobbit, and throws flaming acorns or pinecones or whatever at the wolves).

Considering he's a servant of Manwe, whose domain is Air, it seems unlikely that Gandalf had inherent fiery powers that any of the wizards couldn't use - more likely the fiery powers were derived from or enhanced by the ring, Narya.

The reason Gandalf rarely uses powerful magics is that in Middle-Earth, magic has a cost, and power corrupts. Saruman was less cautious about using magic, and the results showed. Rolemaster has a decent corruption mechanic to model this - it's generally not a good idea to use powerful magic, so you only do it when absolutely necessary. (That, and it tends to attract... attention. You can bet my players didn't use any magic over the first few spell levels while they were trying to sneak out of Carn Dûm in Angmar, right under the Witch-King's nose.)

Chronos
2008-05-18, 06:27 PM
Considering he's a servant of Manwe, whose domain is Air, it seems unlikely that Gandalf had inherent fiery powers that any of the wizards couldn't use - more likely the fiery powers were derived from or enhanced by the ring, Narya.Yes and no... He was chosen by Manwe to be one of the five Istari, but he was of the people of Lórien (more properly called Irmo, master of visions and dreams), and was also close to Nienna (maiden of grief).

Meanwhile, Arien, pilot of the Sun, was certainly a fiery sort in her inherent being, and she was of the people of Vana, who's associated with youth and springtime. So I don't think it's too outrageous to say that Olorin might also have had some inherent connection to fire, despite not being associated with a fiery vala (remember, fire was Melkor's invention, in the beginning). I do agree that it's no coincidence that Gandalf bore the ring of fire, but it could also be that he bore that particular ring because it's the one to which he was most closely attuned.

Cuddly
2008-05-18, 06:51 PM
Tolkien's books clearly state that Gandalf is a wizard; indeed, he is one of the archetypes on which the D&D wizard class was based in the first place. So no, he's not a factotum. He does, however, probably have a high-LA racial template that accounts for e.g. his diplomatic ability.

Again, more fluff. What profession your character is described as doing is divorced from actual class.

Talya
2008-05-18, 07:27 PM
Again, more fluff. What profession your character is described as doing is divorced from actual class.

People that insist on divorcing fluff and crunch drive me crazy. But since I know what you're trying to do (and stating it very poorly. Gandalf has no "actual class.")

Now, if you want to argue that the factotum best represents Gandalf's abilities, you'd have to state that wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and bards do not exist, because gandalf is one of the most powerful magicians in the world (the others also being Istari.) Therefore, you're replacing all casting classes other than paladin and ranger with factotum, which actually works fairly well for a low magic world. In fact, I think I really like it...

Cuddly
2008-05-18, 07:58 PM
People that insist on divorcing fluff and crunch drive me crazy. But since I know what you're trying to do (and stating it very poorly. Gandalf has no "actual class.")

Gandalf had tons of class.


Now, if you want to argue that the factotum best represents Gandalf's abilities, you'd have to state that wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and bards do not exist, because gandalf is one of the most powerful magicians in the world (the others also being Istari.) Therefore, you're replacing all casting classes other than paladin and ranger with factotum, which actually works fairly well for a low magic world. In fact, I think I really like it...

I'd argue that Middle Earth is a low powered world, ripe for an Illithid invasion. There might be high level casters- didn't Manwe or someone chain Melkor to the heavens?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-18, 08:05 PM
Gandalf had tons of class.


And this is where Factotum intervenes. By D&D standard Gandalf does many things pretty well. Not outstanding, but well. Guess which class is extremely adept at that?

Jayabalard
2008-05-18, 11:16 PM
Again, more fluff. What profession your character is described as doing is divorced from actual class.Gandalf doesn't have an actual class; he's a character in a novel, not a character in an RPG.

If you really want to model Gandalf, then your best bet is to use a homebrewed wizard class using a homebrewed magic system that actually matches the way that magic works in middle earth. Even then, it's only relevant if you also have rules like "the standard core casters don't exist in this game world"

Draz74
2008-05-18, 11:19 PM
Gandalf doesn't have an actual class; he's a character in a novel, not a character in an RPG.

If you really want to model Gandalf, then your best bet is to use a homebrewed wizard class using a homebrewed magic system that actually matches the way that magic works in middle earth. Even then, it's only relevant if you also have rules like "the standard core casters don't exist in this game world"

Right. Congratulations, you've forced the posters in this thread to state exactly what all of their underlying assumptions are. Yes, we're trying to model Gandalf and convert him into an RPG character even though he isn't one. And we're trying to do it with existing build options, not homebrew classes.

Now that we've established that, you can decide whether you want to contribute to the thread-as-intended, and discuss whether Factotum makes a feasible Gandalf simulation, or not.

Cuddly
2008-05-18, 11:22 PM
Right. Congratulations, you've forced the posters in this thread to state exactly what all of their underlying assumptions are. Yes, we're trying to model Gandalf and convert him into an RPG character even though he isn't one. And we're trying to do it with existing build options, not homebrew classes.

Now that we've established that, you can decide whether you want to contribute to the thread-as-intended, and discuss whether Factotum makes a feasible Gandalf simulation, or not.

:smallsmile:
Thanks.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-19, 09:57 AM
Now that we've established that, you can decide whether you want to contribute to the thread-as-intended, and discuss whether Factotum makes a feasible Gandalf simulation, or not.

Yeah, and some people have pointed out that wizard with racial hit dice makes for a better alternative, but your posts seem intent on ignoring everybody who disagrees with you.

Draz74
2008-05-19, 11:48 AM
Yeah, and some people have pointed out that wizard with racial hit dice makes for a better alternative, but your posts seem intent on ignoring everybody who disagrees with you.

Um. Where do I start to respond to this personal attack?

I suppose I could just take it as a compliment, since "ignoring everybody who disagrees with you" is, on the Internet, often a rather wise time-saving strategy. Since nobody with a balanced life has time to respond to everyone and everything that disagrees with them on the Internet.

But ... still, your accusation makes absolutely no sense. The post you are quoting is the only post I have made in this thread before this moment. I literally didn't have a position to defend, or for people to "disagree with," in this conversation.

Someone could be saying, "A factotum is not nearly as good at representing Gandalf as a Wizard with Outsider RHD," and I did not say anything in this thread against that opinion. That would be a perfectly on-topic and valid opinion to present. The post I responded to was saying something more along the lines of, "This is a pointless discussion," and I was trying to help the OP out by expressing that it is not a pointless discussion, with the right underlying assumptions that the OP thought would be self-evident (but evidently weren't, to Jayabalard).

And if you are referring to anything I have said or done in other threads in the past, I apologize for my apparently offensive debate tactics :smallconfused:, but bringing up issues from past threads is against Forum rules anyway ...

Telonius
2008-05-19, 02:44 PM
The best representation of Gandalf I've seen in standard 3.5 D&D is the following:

Angel (Solar). Use Change Shape to change into a Venerable Human. Never use Change Shape again.

GoC
2008-05-19, 08:58 PM
The best representation of Gandalf I've seen in standard 3.5 D&D is the following:

Angel (Solar). Use Change Shape to change into a Venerable Human. Never use Change Shape again.

I never saw Gandalf pull out a Storm of Vengance so I think you might be a bit off the mark...
Just use a custom outsider. CR 9 or so.

Corolinth
2008-05-20, 07:15 PM
Corolinth: who gives a rats ass about the fluff?

We're trying to stat Gandalf, not to evade the issue.Start with 20 outsider hit dice. Then start looking here:

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineMinionsDomainsSpells.htm

The maiar probably all have a divine rank of 1. Keep in mind, Gandalf also has one of the rings of power.

I understand what you, and many others, want to do. You want to ignore "fluff" in favor of "crunchy goodness." Unfortunately, that's not possible. In order to properly reconstruct any character that isn't explicitly statted out, you must first understand who and what they are. Trying to divorce the mechanical aspects of a character from the setting they exist in is a fool's errand. Especially when you try to stat an archangel/demigod as if he were a mortal man.

SmartAlec
2008-05-20, 07:41 PM
Are we talking about Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White? They act and fight like two different people; Grey is a Wizard, White is a Cleric.

Chronos
2008-05-20, 07:55 PM
I never saw Gandalf pull out a Storm of Vengance so I think you might be a bit off the mark...You have to realize there that there's a huge difference between what Gandalf could do, and what he chose to do. Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf, but not by more than an order of magnitude or so, and Sauron pulled off things much bigger than a Storm of Vengeance. Had Gandalf tried to counter in kind, he not only would have failed, but the world would have been a much worst place for his trying.

Roog
2008-05-20, 09:13 PM
You have to realize there that there's a huge difference between what Gandalf could do, and what he chose to do.

So choose to model "what Gandalf could do" or "what Gandalf limited himself to do".

Since Gandalf didn't do much of what he could have done, we have very limited data on what his potential limits were. On the other hand we have a much better record of what he limited himself to, so we may be better able to model the self-limited Gandalf.

Both would be reasonable models to use in a RPG context, as if Gandalf exceeds those self-imposed limits, then the story takes a large left turn.

GoC
2008-05-20, 09:21 PM
You have to realize there that there's a huge difference between what Gandalf could do, and what he chose to do. Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf, but not by more than an order of magnitude or so, and Sauron pulled off things much bigger than a Storm of Vengeance.
Bigger in size but not in destructive force. Gandalf could have used that against the orc army or against the nazgul (whose bodies can be destroyed by such things as in the river flood).
OP: In order to compare ME to D&D you have to make widen cost +1/4 of a spell slot and make it stack exponentially. Everything is so much more epic but so much less focused in ME.

Corolinth: You're correct that the system of D&D meshes very poorly with Tolkien's epic world. Fact and fluff may have to come second to game balance.
That said 20 outsider hd will cause a few problems as maia are not much more resilient than ordinary people.

Chronos
2008-05-20, 09:29 PM
Oh, back to the OP, here's a thought: If Gandalf is a Factotum, then why did he think it necessary, in the Quest of Mt. Erebor, to hire a rogue (and presumably a much lower-level one) for the party? There's precious little that a rogue can do but a factotum cannot, but there are actually a fair few things a rogue can do that a wizard cannot (especially in a low-magic setting like Middle Earth).

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-20, 09:33 PM
Didn't he leave at some point? If he knew he was going to have to leave, he might have planed for the eventuality.

Cuddly
2008-05-20, 09:40 PM
Start with 20 outsider hit dice. Then start looking here:

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineMinionsDomainsSpells.htm

The maiar probably all have a divine rank of 1. Keep in mind, Gandalf also has one of the rings of power.

I understand what you, and many others, want to do. You want to ignore "fluff" in favor of "crunchy goodness." Unfortunately, that's not possible. In order to properly reconstruct any character that isn't explicitly statted out, you must first understand who and what they are. Trying to divorce the mechanical aspects of a character from the setting they exist in is a fool's errand. Especially when you try to stat an archangel/demigod as if he were a mortal man.

But if someone wanted to, say, play a gandalf-like wizard in a D&D game, or (gasp!) even gandalf himself in a D&D LotR game, a factototum would work incredibly well, alongside a ranger, a ranger and a fighter. Giving Gandalf's player 20 outsider HD and a divine rank would just be dumb, even if you feel like he has to be some sort of DBZ character.


Chronos-
Honestly, I have no idea why they hired Bilbo. I remember wondering when I was reading it all those years ago why the dwarves hired some candy ass to steal from a dragon. Anyway- maybe Gandalf hadn't invested any skill ranks in hide, thus only benefitting from his intelligence and moderate dex modifier?

Draz74
2008-05-20, 10:13 PM
Oh, back to the OP, here's a thought: If Gandalf is a Factotum, then why did he think it necessary, in the Quest of Mt. Erebor, to hire a rogue (and presumably a much lower-level one) for the party? There's precious little that a rogue can do but a factotum cannot, but there are actually a fair few things a rogue can do that a wizard cannot (especially in a low-magic setting like Middle Earth).

If Gandalf was a Factotum, he was probably an unusual Factotum who didn't invest much in Hide or Search. Or he knew he was going to be gone during part of the quest, like Meklor said.

Chronos
2008-05-20, 10:28 PM
Well, he was gone for part of the journey, but I seem to recall him being back for at least part of the big confrontation. Though I suppose he couldn't have known that he'd be back in time.

By the way, MeklorIlavator, have I ever mentioned how unsettling I find your username? Between the misspellings and the juxtaposition, it just seems... wrong.

Cuddly
2008-05-20, 10:31 PM
So that's what was so bothersome about it.... Meklor? Heh.

ashmanonar
2008-05-21, 12:11 PM
Didn't he leave at some point? If he knew he was going to have to leave, he might have planed for the eventuality.

Bilbo was hired for several reasons.

1. The Dwarves were looking to avoid the "unlucky number" of 13. Bilbo was hired to make them 14.

2. Bilbo was hinted at being more adventurous in his youth, and Gandalf was trying to bring him out of his shell, (partially because of some foresight or other reason) so as to do something important. I don't think even Gandalf knew beforehand what important thing that Bilbo would do, only that he should be included in this group.

3. The Dwarves were incapable of being "burglars" in the classical sense, so they needed somebody who could be sneaky and roguish.

Telonius
2008-05-21, 01:15 PM
I never saw Gandalf pull out a Storm of Vengance so I think you might be a bit off the mark...
Just use a custom outsider. CR 9 or so.

Saruman apparently used a "Control Weather" at Caradhras, and something like a re-fluffed "Imprisonment" when he captured Gandalf. He's around the same power level (possibly a little higher, pre Gandalf-the-White).

Gandalf did use "Break Enchantment" on Theoden. Daylight in The Hobbit (when the Dwarves were captured in the Misty Mts). Also, remember that the list of spells in the MM is only the "typical" ones prepared. Calling Shadowfax might well be ruled a use of "Greater Planar Ally" (an 8th-level Cleric spell).

Acrux
2008-05-21, 02:08 PM
Gandalf is a wizard, but he's in an E6 campaign world.

WalkingTarget
2008-05-21, 02:26 PM
Gandalf is a wizard, but he's in an E6 campaign world.

While I agree that for D&D purposes E6 is good for Middle-earth, I still say that a D&D Wizard class doesn't match Gandalf as he doesn't need a spell book or whatever. The name is just a name (and Tolkien only used it due to the association with the word "wise" you get that way).

Acrux
2008-05-21, 02:42 PM
Agreed. I should have written 'Gandalf is a "wizard", but he's in an E6 campaign world.'

His actual class levels would probably be in cleric, but with plenty of magic equipment (a ring that has "Inspire Courage" as a constant effect, etc.) or something like that.

Sebastian
2008-05-21, 03:08 PM
Personally if I ever wanted to do Gandlaf with D&D (3ed) I'd go with bard, with his more flashy non-bard spells coming from his staff and ring.

But I'm also of the old school of thought that say that Gandalf in D&D terms was a 5th level wizard. :)

nagora
2008-05-22, 07:11 AM
Gandalf was a demigod.

Yes.


The reason he didn't sling around "powerful spells" is because that's not how magic works in Middle Earth.

No.

Gandaf didn't sling powerful spells around because it was morally important that the races on ME followed the right path through choice and choosing to listen to wisdom, not through either awe or fear. Wise advice with only small interventions in places where mortals could not hope to cope with the powers of the other demigods were the Istari's original plan. We'll never know what happened to the Blues, the Brown became distracted, the White became corrupted by hubris; only the Grey definitely remained true to that path.

There's also a MAD theme in the background too: if Sauron came out "all guns blazing" he would have increased the chance of a direct intervention from the Valar, and he simply wasn't capable of facing that.

Ossian
2008-05-22, 09:00 AM
Native Outsider (full BAB, good saves, HP and weapon proficiency).
High level Sorcerer (wizard with high charisma and no spell book), with perhaps a dip in bard to account for all the lore, entertainment and mastery of legends. Once he becomes the White, replace bard levels (he seems to have forgotten some of his previous life as the gray) with Paladin or other paladinesque class available in the Complete Warrior. You know, inspiring aura of courage, high charisma, divine grace, good at riding, commanding, lordly.

I´d say that in 10-15 levels you can account for most of what he does in the books. That, of course, and something to represent his demigodness, since the Balrog might well be a Balor-equivalent monster.

Maybe just throw in some extra levels of eldritch knight and make Gandalf go epic... This, and the ring, and Glamdring, and plot armor...should do.