View Full Version : Pronounciation matters!
So... die to the 'Elan is Lien!' thread I wondered... how do you pronounce the cast? I mean, many names are pretty obvious, such as Roy or Haley, but I think even Xykon (Xaiken in german letters is my way to spell it out, but a friend just goes by Xükon - dam, I should learn using this pronounciation language) Especially the Asian names of the Azurites are difficult I think, because... Okay, I'm an otaku, I think I know how to pronounce most, but other's might not.
So I though of starting this thread, so people may discuss, how they read certain names. Let's start! (I hope)
Tingel
2008-05-18, 03:28 PM
Xykon (Xaiken in german letters is my way to spell it out, but a friend just goes by Xükon)
If you want to pronounce Xykon as an English word, the X would be an S-sound. So by using your attempt of transcribing the name into German sounds, it should rather be "Saiken" than "Xaiken".
If you want to pronounce Xykon as an English word, the X would be an S-sound. So by using your attempt of transcribing the name into German sounds, it should rather be "Saiken" than "Xaiken".
Nah, I think the 'x' to be an 'ks' sound, so 'x' is fitting, I think. Or how do you pronounce it? (I gotta search for a site with the phonetic transcription. This would be useful if this thread will be successful... otherwise... we'll have to describe with similar sounding words ^^*
Tingel
2008-05-18, 03:41 PM
Nah, I think the 'x' to be an 'ks' sound, so 'x' is fitting, I think. Or how do you pronounce it? (I gotta search for a site with the phonetic transcription. This would be useful if this thread will be successful... otherwise... we'll have to describe with similar sounding words ^^*
In English, an X inside a word is pronounced as "ks" (as in "example" or "maximum"). However, if the X is the first letter of a word, the "k" part is silent (as in "xenobiology" for example). Thus an English X is not the same thing as a German X.
It's similar to how the P in Psychology or Psionics is silent because it is the first letter of the word. The English language has curious pronunciation rules like that.
In English, an X inside a word is pronounced as "ks" (as in "example" or "maximum"). However, if the X is the first letter of a word, the "k" part is silent (as in "xenobiology" for example). Thus an English X is not the same thing as a German X.
It's similar to how the P in Psychology or Psionics is silent because it is the first letter of the word. The English language has curious pronunciation rules like that.
... Okay, this is new to me... I mean... I don't know for sure about xeno- and psionics... but the P in psychology is silent? so you say like... saikolodshi? (best way I can figure to write it) Anyway, so you read him like 'saikon'? Hm... might fit as well.
Okay, I think I'll just throw in some names, which might be unclear.
The three 'Th's (though they have their own thread already), Qarr, Vaarsuvius, Zz'dtri... I don't know if I should list all the Azurites... though there are enough calling Daigo Diego constantly, I'll also give Shojo, Lien, Hinjo... Kasumi might be sure again, it's quite a common one. Are there any 'Ma-i-ko' or the like users out there or go we all by 'Mi-ko'?
Chronos
2008-05-18, 03:56 PM
I think it's more just that an initial X is so rare in English words, that people have a hard time pronouncing it fully. Pretty much all of the words in English starting with X have one of four Greek roots (xantho, meaning "yellow", xeno, meaning "alien", xero, meaning "dry", or xylo, meaning "wood"), and that would be pronounced the same as any other xi in the original Greek, so "kseroks", or "ksylophone", or whatever, is presumably the "correct" pronunciation. Note also that Xykon gets upset when people call him "Zykon", even spoken, so there's presumably some detectable difference in the pronunciation. So if your native language has prepared you to easily put the X sound at the beginning of a word, go with that.
Tingel
2008-05-18, 04:01 PM
... Okay, this is new to me... I mean... I don't know for sure about xeno- and psionics... but the P in psychology is silent? so you say like... saikolodshi? (best way I can figure to write it)
Yes. You can listen to standard pronunciation here for example: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/psychology
An example for an X as the first letter of a word can be found here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/xenophobia
Just listen to the sound files.
Anyway, so you read him like 'saikon'? Hm... might fit as well.
I don't. I pronounce him like your friend does. I just wanted to point out what the natural English pronunciation of his name would be.
Kai Maera
2008-05-18, 04:16 PM
Not only are you overthinking it, but most of your assumptions about the letter X are incorrect.
In English, an X at the beginning of a word is not pronounced "ks", "s", etc. It's pronounced as a Z. Ex. Xerox. Zerox. Xylophone. Zylophone. Xena. Zena.
As for the original discussion, Elan is pronounced E-lenn in its textbook meaning. Lien is either Lee-en or Leen. Nale is nail and thus nale backward is pronounced Lane. Lane =/= Lean nor Lee-en.
I think the joke is kind of lost in that it's a joke based on English spelling. The spelling is flipped, the pronunciation is not, and from there someone with an English degree will tell you a brilliant story about how this reflects some sort of internal traits that were probably never meant to be thought about.
Anon-a-mouse
2008-05-18, 04:17 PM
nale obviously nail otherwise nail not nale not work.
Tingel
2008-05-18, 04:23 PM
Not only are you overthinking it, but most of your assumptions about the letter X are incorrect.
In English, an X at the beginning of a word is not pronounced "ks", "s", etc. It's pronounced as a Z. Ex. Xerox. Zerox. Xylophone. Zylophone. Xena. Zena.
You make a mistake here, Kai. Kato's native tongue is German (or at least that is what I assume based on his original post); as such, telling him that an X as the first letter of a word is pronounced like a Z would not help him at all, since a German Z is completely different from an English Z.
So by using your attempt of transcribing the name into German sounds, it should rather be "Saiken" than "Xaiken".
As you can see, I only used an S to explain the X from the viewpoint of a German-speaker. The S is the closest the German language has to the English Z.
Kai Maera
2008-05-18, 04:26 PM
You make a mistake here, Kai. Kato's native tongue is German (or at least that is what I assume based on his original post); as such, telling him that an X as the first letter of a word is pronounced like a Z would not help him at all, since a German Z is completely different from an English Z.
As you can see, I only used an S to explain the X from the viewpoint of a German-speaker. The S is the closest the German language has to the English Z.
If they can complain about uber in their spelling, we can complain about Z in ours. :smallyuk:
That aside, as I said, it's a pain that it has to be explained at all because languages seem to love expressing different sounds than each other.
EDIT: Anon-a-mouse delivers.
Sir_Dr_D
2008-05-18, 04:26 PM
Note also that Xykon gets upset when people call him "Zykon", even spoken, so there's presumably some detectable difference in the pronunciation.
No there isn't. Part of that joke was that Xykon seemed to know exactly which way the characters were spelling the name in their head, even though the pronounciations are the same. Xykon is pronounced Zykon.
Okay, I really didn't know that... Though, I mostly read English, so you may excuse my lack of knowledge ^^*
Anyway, so what DO we have an agreement over Xykon or do we not?
As for the original discussion, Elan is pronounced E-lenn in its textbook meaning. Lien is either Lee-en or Leen. Nale is nail and thus nale backward is pronounced Lane. Lane =/= Lean nor Lee-en.
... No? If you DO say Nale is pronounced like nail (otherwise nail not-nale wouldn't work) how can you assume Nale backwards pronounced is Lane? I'm pretty sure it is N-a-i-l, so backwards l-i-a-n, the perfect pronunciation for an Asian originated name such as Lien (Lee-Ann to give it by two names) Lane is pronounces L-a-i-n, so the vocals in the middle are in the wrong order to make a Nale backwards.
Raging_Pacifist
2008-05-18, 05:22 PM
You know, The Giant does have a pronounciation guide. I'll link to it later. Or if some one else wants to for me. Anyway he says that Xykon is pronounced like 'Zy-Kahn' in English.
Kurald Galain
2008-05-18, 05:25 PM
Nah, I think the 'x' to be an 'ks' sound, so 'x' is fitting, I think. Or how do you pronounce it?
Judging by the way people in Start of Darkness mispronounce it, I think the X is pronounced 'z' rather than 'ks'.
... Okay, this is new to me... I mean... I don't know for sure about xeno- and psionics... but the P in psychology is silent?
Yes. I've seen people who thought "pseudo" was spelled "sudo" because that's how you pronounce it. I'm quite sure that, at least in (oxymoronic) American English, xeno- is a 'z' not a 'ks', and psionics also has a silent P.
Qarr, Vaarsuvius, Zz'dtri...
The first two should be easy. Zz'dtri is intentionally impronouncible, but it probably sounds like "Drizz'l". For Kasumi, I could see a case for ka-SOO-mi, but based on my (very minor) knowledge of Japanese I guess it might actually be KAS-su-mi.
... No? If you DO say Nale is pronounced like nail (otherwise nail not-nale wouldn't work) how can you assume Nale backwards pronounced is Lane? I'm pretty sure it is N-a-i-l, so backwards l-i-a-n
AI is one phoneme, so it's N-ai-l, and backwards l-ai-n. Backward pronounciation is not the same as backwards spelling.
AI is one phoneme, so it's N-ai-l, and backwards l-ai-n. Backward pronounciation is not the same as backwards spelling.
... 'ai' is not a single sound, is it? It is an 'a' like 'a' and and 'i' such as in 'i' so it can be pronounced backwards to 'i-a'. If you record it on tape and play it backwards, it comes out this way, doesn't it? (sorry for not making it clear... still used to German, where an 'i' is always read as in 'in', not as in 'i')
Firestar27
2008-05-18, 08:38 PM
Okay, I really didn't know that... Though, I mostly read English, so you may excuse my lack of knowledge ^^*
Anyway, so what DO we have an agreement over Xykon or do we not?
... No? If you DO say Nale is pronounced like nail (otherwise nail not-nale wouldn't work) how can you assume Nale backwards pronounced is Lane? I'm pretty sure it is N-a-i-l, so backwards l-i-a-n, the perfect pronunciation for an Asian originated name such as Lien (Lee-Ann to give it by two names) Lane is pronounces L-a-i-n, so the vocals in the middle are in the wrong order to make a Nale backwards.
Because spelling a word backwards does NOT guarantee backwards pronunciation. Nale is pronounced with the long a. It is the first letter under "e" in this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA) wikipedia page. Backwards it would be Lane.
Tingel
2008-05-18, 08:59 PM
Because spelling a word backwards does NOT guarantee backwards pronunciation.
Kato is aware of that. He is talking about the fact that the A in Nale is composed of two vowels (and thus two letters in the phonetic alphabet), even though it is written as only one letter. The name Nale has four sounds: n, eh, ee, l. By reading them backwards, you get: l, ee, eh, n. And that's how you pronounce Lien.
... 'ai' is not a single sound, is it?
Actually, it is.
It is an 'a' like 'a' and and 'i' such as in 'i' so it can be pronounced backwards to 'i-a'. If you record it on tape and play it backwards, it comes out this way, doesn't it? (sorry for not making it clear... still used to German, where an 'i' is always read as in 'in', not as in 'i')
No. In English, "nail" is a one-syllable word. The "ai" sound makes a single long "a" sound, not an "a" followed by an "i". Rhymes with "male" or "hate" or "day".
There is no connection between Lien's name and Nale's, because Nale's name has one syllable and Lien's has two.
Kato is aware of that. He is talking about the fact that the A in Nale is composed of two vowels (and thus two letters in the phonetic alphabet), even though it is written as only one letter.
Except it absolutely is NOT composed of two vowels. The vowel sound in bothe "nail" and "nale" are pronounced as one sound, a "long a". The only way you could think "Nale" has two vowel sounds is if you think "nail" is a two-syllable word in English, which it isn't.
The name Nale has four sounds: n, eh, ee, l.
No, it doesn't. It has three sounds: n, ey, l. See dictionary.com's pronunciation guide for it. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nail)
By reading them backwards, you get: l, ee, eh, n. And that's how you pronounce Lien.
Except you don't, because it's not pronounced that way in English.
Two vowels doesn't imply two syllables, Nale still has two vowel sounds although they are in the same syllable. As do other words that rhyme with that, like your examples male, hate, and day.
Two vowels doesn't imply two syllables, Nale still has two vowel sounds although they are in the same syllable. As do other words that rhyme with that, like your examples male, hate, and day.
Not according to the dictionary, they don't. There is a single "ey" sound in all of their pronunciation guides.
At any rate there is no "eh" or "ee" sound in "Nale" to begin with. If you want to make a case that the "ey" sound in the dictionary's pronunciation guide is really two sounds (despite being used as one), it still doesn't support the "n-eh-ee-l" pronunciation being cited above.
Lissou
2008-05-19, 06:07 AM
... 'ai' is not a single sound, is it? It is an 'a' like 'a' and and 'i' such as in 'i' so it can be pronounced backwards to 'i-a'. If you record it on tape and play it backwards, it comes out this way, doesn't it? (sorry for not making it clear... still used to German, where an 'i' is always read as in 'in', not as in 'i')
the "ei" sound in Nale is indeed only one vowel sound in English, just like the "tsh" sound "ch" makes in only one consonant sound in English, and not t+sh.
If you ever studied phonetics, you'd probably understand how it works better, but yes, "ei" is 1 phonem (sound "letter").
And yes, a vowel sound= a syllable. But the "ei" in Nale is only 1 vowel sound, therefore "Nale" is a one syllable word.
Here (http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm) is a list of the phonetic vowels and consonants in English, and an example of words with each sound.
So "Nale" and "Lane" are phonetically oposites, just like "name" and "main" would be. And yes, "nail" is a one-syllable word, even if the one vowel is written with two letters. Just like "beau" in French has only one vowel sound even if it's written with 3 vowel letters.
Tingel
2008-05-19, 08:20 AM
Not according to the dictionary, they don't. There is a single "ey" sound in all of their pronunciation guides.
"Ey" is not a single sound; it's a diphtong. While my terminology was maybe faulty by talking about "two vowels" since English linguistics count the "ey" sound in Nale or nail as one vowel, the point I tried to make is still correct. There are two distinct sounds that make up the vowel in question.
Just speak the word slowly: While pronouncing the vowel between the N and the L, your tongue will move. If you were only pronouncing one sound, that wouldn't happen. [note: If your tongue does not move, then you are not using standard English pronunciation]. The fact that there are two sounds should also be obvious since the IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) uses two symbols to transcribe it: [eɪ]. And if all that isn't enough: Just play a sound file of "nail" backwards. It won't sound like "lane" - it will sound like "Lien".
And SPoD: Of course Nale and nail both have only one syllable. I never claimed otherwise.
In phonetics, a diphthong (also gliding vowel) (Greek δίφθογγος, "diphthongos", literally "with two sounds," or "with two tones") is a monosyllabic vowel combination involving a quick but smooth movement, or glide, from one vowel to another, often interpreted by listeners as a single vowel sound or phoneme. While "pure" vowels, or monophthongs, are said to have one target tongue position, diphthongs have two target tongue positions. Pure vowels are represented in the International Phonetic Alphabet by one symbol: English "sum" as /sʌm/, for example. Diphthongs are represented by two symbols, for example English "same" as /seɪm/, where the two vowel symbols are intended to represent approximately the beginning and ending tongue positions.
Firestar27
2008-05-19, 06:12 PM
"Ey" is not a single sound; it's a diphtong. While my terminology was maybe faulty by talking about "two vowels" since English linguistics count the "ey" sound in Nale or nail as one vowel, the point I tried to make is still correct. There are two distinct sounds that make up the vowel in question.
Just speak the word slowly: While pronouncing the vowel between the N and the L, your tongue will move. If you were only pronouncing one sound, that wouldn't happen. [note: If your tongue does not move, then you are not using standard English pronunciation]. The fact that there are two sounds should also be obvious since the IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) uses two symbols to transcribe it: [eɪ]. And if all that isn't enough: Just play a sound file of "nail" backwards. It won't sound like "lane" - it will sound like "Lien".
And SPoD: Of course Nale and nail both have only one syllable. I never claimed otherwise.
Although it is made of two vowel sounds, the sounds are spoken together as one syllable. Lien has two distinct syllables. Nale backwards MIGHT be a 1 syllable version of Lien (Pronounced Lean ((the word, not the vowel sounds))). However, that is still not Lien.
Firestar27
2008-05-19, 06:23 PM
"Ey" is not a single sound; it's a diphtong. While my terminology was maybe faulty by talking about "two vowels" since English linguistics count the "ey" sound in Nale or nail as one vowel, the point I tried to make is still correct. There are two distinct sounds that make up the vowel in question.
Just speak the word slowly: While pronouncing the vowel between the N and the L, your tongue will move. If you were only pronouncing one sound, that wouldn't happen. [note: If your tongue does not move, then you are not using standard English pronunciation]. The fact that there are two sounds should also be obvious since the IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) uses two symbols to transcribe it: [eɪ]. And if all that isn't enough: Just play a sound file of "nail" backwards. It won't sound like "lane" - it will sound like "Lien".
And SPoD: Of course Nale and nail both have only one syllable. I never claimed otherwise.
Although it is made of two vowel sounds, the sounds are spoken together as one syllable. Lien has two distinct syllables. Nale backwards MIGHT be a 1 syllable version of Lien (Pronounced Lean ((the word, not the vowel sounds))). However, that is still not Lien.
Chronos
2008-05-19, 10:13 PM
The only movement my tongue makes in pronouncing "Nale" is the transition from the N to the vowel (whatever the heck you want to call it) and then again in the transition from the vowel to the L. There's no tongue movement during the vowel itself.
[note: If your tongue does not move, then you are not using standard English pronunciation]And neither is anyone else I've ever heard talk. In what part of the world do people use a "standard English pronunciation" that has two distinct vowel sounds in "Nail"?
drengnikrafe
2008-05-19, 11:32 PM
I don't know why, but I always imagined "zz'dtri" to be pronounced "Zuh-Dit-Tree"
That, and "Xykon" as "Zy-Cawn"
Just my 2 cp.
Try to skip the 'N' and the 'L' in "Nail". Just say the "ai" sound, pretty much like the normal pronounciation of the letter 'A'
You cannot finish it without moving your mouth. Played backwards the change that movement makes would come at the beginning of the sound, therefore "ai" backwards is not "ai".
However I do not belive it is "I-E" either
Okay, I'll give it one last try.
I KNOW Nale/nail is written in phonetics with the ae-written diphthong. And if you then read is backwards it's l-ae-n and comes out as Lane. BUT try one of the following two:
1) Pronounces it reaaaaaaaaaaaaally slow. It begins with the n (teeth clenched), then you say the 'a' as the word (opening your mouth), then pronounce an 'ee' such as in 'keen' (close the mouth a little) and finally the l (touch behind your upper teeth with your tongue). If you do this backwards. You get a l-ee-a-n, combined Lien.
2) Record you saying it (slowly and clearly)and play it backwards. You should notice it's sound.
I hope we won't argue any further *sigh*If some don't see it, let the matter drop.
@drengnikrafe
I always was saying Zz'dtri kinda as... I just pronounce it as its written, with necessary vowels between the Zs and between/behind the d, so like 'Zi-zi-di-tri'
MeTheGameGuy
2008-05-20, 03:28 AM
On the matter of pronunciation, it's pronounced pronunciation, rather than pronounciation.
Let's just say Nale is Nail, and Xykon is Zykon. That's the easiest way to pronounce them anyway.
I think Zz'dtri is something like ZZ-Dree-Tee.
Philistine
2008-05-22, 01:18 AM
The only movement my tongue makes in pronouncing "Nale" is the transition from the N to the vowel (whatever the heck you want to call it) and then again in the transition from the vowel to the L. There's no tongue movement during the vowel itself.
...
And neither is anyone else I've ever heard talk. In what part of the world do people use a "standard English pronunciation" that has two distinct vowel sounds in "Nail"?
Around here, many people manage to wedge two distinct vowel sounds into "nail" - but for them it's "nay-yull" rather than "nay-eel" as suggested. Granted, a southern accent is non-Standard English by definition!
Rockphed
2008-05-22, 01:54 AM
Okay, I think I'll just throw in some names, which might be unclear.
Qarr, Vaarsuvius, Zz'dtri... I don't know if I should list all the Azurites... though there are enough calling Daigo Diego constantly, I'll also give Shojo, Lien, Hinjo... Kasumi might be sure again, it's quite a common one. Are there any 'Ma-i-ko' or the like users out there or go we all by 'Mi-ko'?
First, somebody mentioned the Giant having a pronunciation guide, it is probably a better source. Furthermore, I am just a hack living in Michigan, so if any of this is wrong, feel free to ignore it. The following are how I say the names in question both in my head and to my brother.
Qarr is phonetically Car. Vaarsuvius is pronounced exactly like Vesuvius except that the 'Ve' is replaced with something that rhymes with Car.
Daigo is probably pronounced like Die(think death) followed by Go, although it could be Day-go. Shojo is probably pronounced Show, Joe. Hinjo probably starts like Hinder and ends in Joe. Kasumi is Caw-zoo-me(What a crow says, where you go to look at animals, and the Singular Objective pronoun). Miko could be My-ko, or Mick, oh, but is probably ME-ko. I can't think of a common word that has the 'Ko' sound in it.
Lien could be pronounced Lean as Lien is an English law term meaning describing the right to take somebody else's stuff. On the other hand, Lien is probably 2 syllables.
Spiky
2008-05-25, 10:48 PM
Okay, I'll give it one last try.
I KNOW Nale/nail is written in phonetics with the ae-written diphthong. And if you then read is backwards it's l-ae-n and comes out as Lane. BUT try one of the following two:
1) Pronounces it reaaaaaaaaaaaaally slow. It begins with the n (teeth clenched), then you say the 'a' as the word (opening your mouth), then pronounce an 'ee' such as in 'keen' (close the mouth a little) and finally the l (touch behind your upper teeth with your tongue). If you do this backwards. You get a l-ee-a-n, combined Lien.
2) Record you saying it (slowly and clearly)and play it backwards. You should notice it's sound.
'
I think the point is being mis-debated on both sides. The extra (let's call it half a) sound in Nale is due to the L, not the A. You can't transition easily (without an interesting dialect/accent showing up) from long A to L sounds due to tongue placement, so there is a very short, intermediate "ih" sound in there. Other letters are easier to transition, so there is less "extra" noise in pronouncing other similar words, like in "name".
So it may sound like 4 sounds played backward, but it is not part of the vowel and not really part of the word. (a serious linguistic expert would probably say something like a dozen sounds in there) More like extra air expending from your mouth due to physical limitations of the mouth. Everybody is about 2/3 correct, IMO.
Kcalehc
2008-05-25, 11:10 PM
Are we trying to figure out how Nale says his own name, or how everyone else says it? Accents, regional or otherwise play an enourmous role in how something is said. you can argue teh standard pronounciation all day long, only to be confounded by someone's accent.
A case in point, my name is John, I am English. Hard 'J,' short 'o'. I am living in the US, and much as I try I cannot get anyone to pronounce my name the same as I do; mostly it sounds to me like 'Jarn' or 'Jawn.' The American English accent pronounces its vowels very differently than the British English speakers. And then even in the UK, regional accents vary, my family from the north west pronounce it more like 'chon,' with a softish 'ch' sound.
The argument about the pronounciatoin is largely academic, and mostly pointless without knowledge of the accent spoken.
I think the point is being mis-debated on both sides. The extra (let's call it half a) sound in Nale is due to the L, not the A. You can't transition easily (without an interesting dialect/accent showing up) from long A to L sounds due to tongue placement, so there is a very short, intermediate "ih" sound in there. Other letters are easier to transition, so there is less "extra" noise in pronouncing other similar words, like in "name".
You mean, like in "Val"? The short sound is because, who can turn a can into a cane? It's not to hard to see, it's silent E. That sound is because of the E, not because of the L.
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