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Chronos
2008-05-18, 05:56 PM
Buried in the latest Giacomo monk thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4337915&postcount=276), we see this quote from Illiterate Scribe:
And I can seek to redeem the Incarnate in everyone's eyes.
Well, I'm curious. From my reading, I don't really see anything the Incarnate can do adequately well: He can get some skill bonuses, but it's not enough to make up for his 2 points per level and short class skill list. He can get some combat bonuses, but he's got the wizard's BAB progression. He can defend himself against a variety of things, but a character needs more than just defense. And he's got precious little that affects other creatures directly.

But then, I'm not all that familiar with Magic of Incarnum. So just what exactly does the Incarnate accomplish, and how does he accomplish it?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-18, 05:58 PM
I remember reading somewhere HOW the Incarnate could do pretty good damage. That was about the only successful thing it could do.

I think Scribe was joking there with regard to that OoTS strip that puts an 18th level Incarnate last after an 8 ball.

Indon
2008-05-18, 06:00 PM
As far as I can remember, Incarnum abilities are all about buffs. Mostly self-buffs, but some targetable buffs. And Incarnates... wait, they have Wizard BAB progression? Are you sure you aren't thinking of Totemists?

UglyPanda
2008-05-18, 06:15 PM
Soulborn has d10 hit dice, one good save, and full BAB. Totemist has d8 hit dice, two good saves, and 3/4 BAB. Incarnate has d6 hit dice, two good saves, and half BAB.

As high-level abilities, Incarnates can bind to heart and soul chakras. Soulborn ironically can't bind to either. Totemist gets heart and totem chakras, and the totem chakra gets special abilities.

Indon
2008-05-18, 06:25 PM
Ah. So the Incarnate was the class that could stack on the most bindings, then?

The_Snark
2008-05-18, 07:58 PM
Yep, that was it.

They can be fairly good physical combatants, but they're tricky to build for it. Skillful (Complete Arcane) weapons are mandatory at higher levels, to get rid of that 3/4 BAB problem. At lower levels, you can compensate with things such as Incarnate Weapon, Lucky Dice, and/or Lightning Gauntlets. They're not terribly powerful, but they can produce some odd abilities most melee characters wouldn't have and shift their abilities around, so they're passable.

The Soulborn, now... that one's tricky.

Draz74
2008-05-18, 08:15 PM
Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=574633) is the thread that is considered the Guide to the Incarnate by the CO boards.

I don't know enough about Incarnum to have a strong opinion about any of it, but there you go. It claims, among other things, that the Incarnate can actually be a quite competent skill monkey throughout the middle levels of the game (but at low levels, it has trouble binding enough soulmelds at once, and at high levels, it finally runs out of skill bonuses compared to the real skill monkeys' accruing skill points).

Kyeudo
2008-05-18, 08:22 PM
With Incarnate I can build a character that can out sneak and out search any rogue on the block, given a 1 level dip into any class with trapfinding. They have their place in a group, and it's mostly as a skill monkey.

Xefas
2008-05-18, 08:52 PM
My impression of Incarnum has always been "Very interesting fluff about how someone can give up a magic item slot to gain a +4 bonus on Profession checks when underwater during a full moon where the average seasonal temperature is 83 degrees while wearing a yellow hat and yodeling upside-down".

Or, to put it more simply, a bunch of situational skill bonuses in a needlessly complicated system. You could achieve the same end by making a class with a bunch of floating skill check modifiers and allowing them to allocate them wherever they want as a swift action.

In my (admittedly limited) personal experience seeing them played, they don't appear to be any more fun than playing a Rogue without sneak-attack. The player basically just tagged along doing nothing until someone needed a door opened and didn't feel like pulling out an adamantine weapon.

I did, however, use the fluff (which I like a lot) for an NPC Lawful Good Hellbred Crusader who bound the souls of sinners to his armor so they could redeem themselves by helping him battle the forces of evil. Basically, I called his "Maneuvers", "Soulmelds" and was done with it. Worked much better.

Chronos
2008-05-18, 10:22 PM
With Incarnate I can build a character that can out sneak and out search any rogue on the block, given a 1 level dip into any class with trapfinding. They have their place in a group, and it's mostly as a skill monkey.Could you explain further? Near as I can tell, a soulmeld skill bonus caps out at around a +16 competence bonus. That means that before skill points, you're only 6 points ahead of someone with a Robe of Blending, and only 1 point ahead of someone with Greater Shadow armor. Some melds give insight bonuses (which are useful) instead of competence bonuses, but those are usually a smaller bonus, and I don't think that there are any of those for Hide or Move Silently.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 04:23 PM
My main focus as an incarnate is rapid damaging strikes; an example mid-game would be here, with my Raptoran Incarnate (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51312). On an attack, he deals 1d8 + 6 (avatar) + 6 (strength) + 3 (weapon enhancement) + 1 (dice) + 3d6 (lightning gauntlets) = 29 damage, at level 9. Not massive, especially compared to a fighter) but the combination of that, plus situational stuff like flight, and flyby attack, can be quite nasty, especially in an arena where you can make tactical use of it - said character, on an airship battle, can be quite nasty, especially as you can rejig skills round into balance, tumble, diplomacy, and stuff, depending on what you put your emphasis on.

Not at the high end of the power spectrum, by any means, but probably capable of taking down a Scout, or something similar.

fendrin
2008-05-19, 06:36 PM
I am playing an incarnate right now.
He was built to be a back-up trap monkey/blaster/versatile '5th', but then the rogue in the party no-showed. He's pulling off primary trap monkey quite well, so far. In the Tomb of Horrors, no less.

Oh, and he's built non-optimally (as he was intended to be a back-up, I wanted to do something... different). In fact, 4 out of his 10 levels are pyrokineticist. If I had gone straight incarnate, he would be able to get even higher bonuses (and be a little more versatile than he is right now)

When he is focused on searching, he has a +231 search and trapfinding2.
He is a little weak on disabling, when focused, only +161.
Open lock is even weaker, +151 when focused.
When he is focused on defense, he has 263 AC (213 touch), 25% fortification, 18/174/10 saves, evasion2, uncanny dodge2, and reduces ability damage by four2.
1: 8 of this is from incarnum
2: This is from incarnum
3: 2 of this is from incarnum
4: 4 of this is from incarnum

Note that by 'focused' I mean 'psionically focused and essentia invested for maximum effect'. If necessary, he can expend his psionic focus to treat a meld as if it were filled to maximum with essentia for one round. With his current meld set up, this is a wasted feat.

With his current melds, his offensive capabilities all come from his Pyokineticist levels. I had originally intended to use some of his melds to boost his offensive capabilities, but he's pretty decent as it is (assuming the enemy isn't immune to fire, but in that case I could always use Rapid Meldshaping to get one of the offensive melds: Acid Spittle, Lightning Gauntlets, or Armbands of Disruption...)

The character sheet is in my sig (Aduro).

Chronos
2008-05-19, 08:07 PM
On the other hand, if you replaced all of your Incarnate levels with Rogue, you'd be a much better trapmonkey. Your Search would be down one point, but your Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Listen, Spot, and Use Magic Device (to pick a few typical rogue skills) would all be significantly higher. In some ways, it's actually easier to skillmonkey in the Tomb of Horrors, since while there are a ton of traps, there isn't much else. So you can afford to spend a significant portion of your precious skill points on cross-classing those skills. But if you were called upon to use some other skill, sure, you can switch which melds you're using/infusing, but you can't get those ranks, and so lag behind a conventional skillmonkey.

The Valiant Turtle
2008-05-19, 09:00 PM
I'm actually a reasonably big fan of the Incarnate. As long as you do a little bit of optimization (see the link posted by Draz74 earlier) it's a capable and reasonably balanced class and a lot of fun. It always struck me as a more flexible version of the warlock.

The totemist is usually stronger in melee, but most incarnates can hold their own. In an awful lot of cases you'll use dissolving spittle as your main damage dealer, and it's ranged touch, so the BAB issues don't affect it nearly as much.

Draz74
2008-05-19, 09:47 PM
On the other hand, if you replaced all of your Incarnate levels with Rogue, you'd be a much better trapmonkey. Your Search would be down one point, but your Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Listen, Spot, and Use Magic Device (to pick a few typical rogue skills) would all be significantly higher. In some ways, it's actually easier to skillmonkey in the Tomb of Horrors, since while there are a ton of traps, there isn't much else. So you can afford to spend a significant portion of your precious skill points on cross-classing those skills. But if you were called upon to use some other skill, sure, you can switch which melds you're using/infusing, but you can't get those ranks, and so lag behind a conventional skillmonkey.

Be a Rogue 4/Incarnate 16, perhaps? I think that's how you can really get a good skillmonkey out of the Incarnate.

fendrin
2008-05-19, 09:48 PM
True. If I had known I was going to be the primary trap-monkey, I would have built the character differently; I probably would have had had 1-3 levels of rogue and only 1 level of pyrokineticist.

Aquillion
2008-05-19, 10:26 PM
On the other hand, if you replaced all of your Incarnate levels with Rogue, you'd be a much better trapmonkey. Your Search would be down one point, but your Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Listen, Spot, and Use Magic Device (to pick a few typical rogue skills) would all be significantly higher. In some ways, it's actually easier to skillmonkey in the Tomb of Horrors, since while there are a ton of traps, there isn't much else. So you can afford to spend a significant portion of your precious skill points on cross-classing those skills. But if you were called upon to use some other skill, sure, you can switch which melds you're using/infusing, but you can't get those ranks, and so lag behind a conventional skillmonkey.What if you take a one-level dip in, say, Factotum, and add Able Learner?

Chronos
2008-05-20, 03:03 PM
What if you take a one-level dip in, say, Factotum, and add Able Learner?That (or a rogue dip, or whatever) would enable you to keep up with and exceed a standard rogue in a couple of areas, but you've still only got 2 skill points per level. For anything other than the small number of skills you concentrate on, you're still going to be far behind the rogue.

Now, a few-level Incarnate dip in a build that's otherwise primarily rogue, that I could see. With, say, four levels of Incarnate, you could catch up on your other skills with the rogue levels, and that would give you enough essentia to fill up the meld for whichever skill you're using at the moment. Shape theft gloves, whatever those goggles are called that give you a boost to Search and Spot, and maybe something defensive or utility like Strongheart Vest. Or at the very least, dropping a feat or three on Shape Soulmeld: Theft Gloves, and maybe Bonus Essentia and/or Indigo Strike to power your gloves further.

Dode
2008-05-21, 11:03 AM
But then, I'm not all that familiar with Magic of Incarnum. So just what exactly does the Incarnate accomplish, and how does he accomplish it?
Suck, and a lot of it.

One time I tried to build a Necrocarnate BBEG and even with every soulmeld pumped to absolute maximum, he still couldn't hold his own in a fight.

They can't fight effectively, even with their pile of limited buffs going. They can't use skills anywhere close to a rogue

Read that "Incarnum Guide" and it's unintentionally damning evidence: if you spend an Incarnate's 2+level skills on crossclass abilities and pump your soulmeld to maximum capacity, you may be able to keep up with a rogue at one skill.

In melee they have to decide between ability to hit and ability to deal damage.

At ranged they lag behind a Warlock in damage with, but even with that, a Warlock can change its damage type and quadruple its range or chain it, all things the Incarnate can't even attempt to match.

True, it can soak a lot of hits with a Vitality Belt, but then again when has "useless guy who can soak damage" been lauded as a smart character choice?

With a heavy load of optimization, the Incarnate is a below-average class, the Totemist is slightly above average as a combat machine, and the Soulborn is probably one of the worst PC classes in the game bar none.

Indon
2008-05-21, 11:09 AM
I wonder what an Incarnate would look like who focused his character feats on additional soulmelds and bindings, and then took Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty at 1'st level?

Dode
2008-05-21, 12:34 PM
It still wouldn't be very good, because the VoP bonus to attack/damage doesn't stack with stuff like Incarnum Weapon and a lot of other bonuses also have problems stacking. Plus, meldshapers have items that improve the essentia capacity of various melds that they would no longer be able use.

fendrin
2008-05-21, 01:03 PM
Suck, and a lot of it.
Well, you get an A for exuberance, but let's take a look at your evidence...


One time I tried to build a Necrocarnate BBEG and even with every soulmeld pumped to absolute maximum, he still couldn't hold his own in a fight.

They can't fight effectively, even with their pile of limited buffs going.

Then you obviously were not using his abilities to their best capability. I mean, Necrocarnate is full of cheese. Nigh-infinite HP? Sign me up!


They can't use skills anywhere close to a rogue
Read that "Incarnum Guide" and it's unintentionally damning evidence: if you spend an Incarnate's 2+level skills on crossclass abilities and pump your soulmeld to maximum capacity, you may be able to keep up with a rogue at one skill.

In melee they have to decide between ability to hit and ability to deal damage.

What? No. Very much no. You do realize that an incarnate should always have enough essentia to keep at least 2+ melds full, right? And the skill melds add to multiple skills?

And with one meld (incarnate weapon) they can boost both to hit and damage, and have plenty of essentia left to boost attack and damage in other ways?


At ranged they lag behind a Warlock in damage with, but even with that, a Warlock can change its damage type and quadruple its range or chain it, all things the Incarnate can't even attempt to match.

Yes, there are many things a warlock can do that an incarnate cannot; the incarnate is not a warlock replacement. That being said, they can easily out damage the warlock. Dip into wizard (or sorc) to get a familiar, dip into druid to get an animal companion, take the share soulmeld feat, and have 3 acidic spittle attacks in a round. At higher levels, if you have bound acidic spittle, that's what, 54d6 each round (well, half is delayed a round)? Well worth the two sacrificed levels.


With a heavy load of optimization, the Incarnate is a below-average class, the Totemist is slightly above average as a combat machine, and the Soulborn is probably one of the worst PC classes in the game bar none.
With a heavy load of optimization the Incarnate is cheesy, the totemist is powerful, and the soulborn... well, it's still better than a CW Samurai.

Check out this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=530815) for some of the nifty combos you can pull with incarnum.

Dode
2008-05-21, 01:45 PM
Well, you get an A for exuberance, but let's take a look at your evidence...

What? No. Very much no. You do realize that an incarnate should always have enough essentia to keep at least 2+ melds full, right? And the skill melds add to multiple skills? Some do, others don't. Is that enough to match 8+Int skills + Int bonus of a rogue? Nowhere near. Even maxing it with crossclass skill points as the CO thread proves (which the Incarnate get precious few) it still can't compete.


Then you obviously were not using his abilities to their best capability. Or, obviously the class just sucks.


And with one meld (incarnate weapon) they can boost both to hit and damage, and have plenty of essentia left to boost attack and damage in other ways? Other classes just have a high BAB, magic weapons of better types and/or Power Attack for that. Simpler, far more effective and that way they also get multiple attacks.


Yes, there are many things a warlock can do that an incarnate cannot; the incarnate is not a warlock replacement. That being said, they can easily out damage the warlock. Dip into wizard (or sorc) to get a familiar, dip into druid to get an animal comapnion, take the share soulmeld feat, and have 3 acidic spittle attacks in a round. At higher levels, if you have bound acidic spittle, that's what, 54d6 each round (well, half is delayed a round)? Well worth the two sacrificed levels. The druid's 1st level animal companion has what, around 10 HP and, it can't leave 5' of the master and must be within 30 ft of the enemy? That's shore a purty number to throw about, but a bit absurd to claim that that build will hold its own in 20th level battles.

With a heavy load of optimization the Incarnate is cheesy, the totemist is powerful, and the soulborn... well, it's still better than a CW Samurai. The Totemist is powerful, I'll give you that. Incarnate is little better then a Monk and Soulborn is little better then a Warrior.

Draz74
2008-05-21, 02:01 PM
Some do, others don't. Is that enough to match 8+Int skills + Int bonus of a rogue? Nowhere near. Even maxing it with crossclass skill points as the CO thread proves (which the Incarnate get precious few) it still can't compete.

I'm no Incarnum expert, but ... I thought the Incarnate could re-distribute all of his essentia as a swift action? So an Incarnate can only be good at a fraction of the Rogue's skills at a time, but could change which skills those were rather quickly? Because Rogues don't ever need all of their skills at once.

fendrin
2008-05-21, 02:23 PM
I'm no Incarnum expert, but ... I thought the Incarnate could re-distribute all of his essentia as a swift action? So an Incarnate can only be good at a fraction of the Rogue's skills at a time, but could change which skills those were rather quickly? Because Rogues don't ever need all of their skills at once.

Quoted For Truth.

Indon
2008-05-21, 03:54 PM
The druid's 1st level animal companion has what, around 10 HP and, it can't leave 5' of the master and must be within 30 ft of the enemy? That's shore a purty number to throw about, but a bit absurd to claim that that build will hold its own in 20th level battles.
That animal companion probably isn't there to go out and melee Balors. It's there to serve as Familiar #2, perched on your shoulder ready to fire.

Though your DM may wonder why you're seeking a rat as an animal companion...

Reel On, Love
2008-05-21, 03:57 PM
Incarnate by the numbers (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=574633) from the WotC CharOp boards. Apparently, it's not nearly as bad as it looks.

Chronos
2008-05-21, 04:04 PM
I'm no Incarnum expert, but ... I thought the Incarnate could re-distribute all of his essentia as a swift action? So an Incarnate can only be good at a fraction of the Rogue's skills at a time, but could change which skills those were rather quickly? Because Rogues don't ever need all of their skills at once.Except hat to comptete with a rogue, you need essentia in the right soulmeld and the cross-class skill ranks, and you can't change your actual skill ranks around as needed (unless it's Knowledge: Decorative Cake Frosting, of course).

Plus, the Incarnate has no way at all to get Hide and Move Silently, that isn't also available to everyone else.

fendrin
2008-05-21, 05:01 PM
That animal companion probably isn't there to go out and melee Balors. It's there to serve as Familiar #2, perched on your shoulder ready to fire.

Though your DM may wonder why you're seeking a rat as an animal companion...
Precisely, like the guy on the cover of Complete Mage. Personally, I like the image of a guy with a snake coiled around each arm, or a raven on each shoulder.


Except hat to comptete with a rogue, you need essentia in the right soulmeld and the cross-class skill ranks, and you can't change your actual skill ranks around as needed (unless it's Knowledge: Decorative Cake Frosting, of course).

Plus, the Incarnate has no way at all to get Hide and Move Silently, that isn't also available to everyone else.

Yeah, but those aren't essential skills. The only essential skills for a trap monkey are Search (along with Trapfinding) and Disable Device.

The incarnate is not a going to fill any party niche quite as well as character built specifically for that niche. However, an incarnate is going to be better at almost any role (they suck as healers unless multiclassed) than a character built for one role trying to fill a niche they weren't built for (i.e. they can tank better than a character built as a skillmonkey, they are a better skill monkey than a character built as a arcanist, etc). Especially seeing that an incarnate can move back and forth between these roles as a swift action.

Draz74
2008-05-21, 06:03 PM
Plus, the Incarnate has no way at all to get Hide and Move Silently, that isn't also available to everyone else.

Yeah, but stuff "available to everyone else" is pretty good. "Incarnate by the Numbers" points out that you can use a feat to get a Totemist soulmeld that boosts these skills. (And technically, the essentia that the Incarnate can put into such a soulmeld is something not available to everyone.)

Plus you can always be a Whisper Gnome and/or a Dark creature (or get Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis), and buy Silent Moves armor and a Ring of Chameleon Power and a Skin of the Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheChameleon) (which, oddly, stacks).

Chronos
2008-05-22, 02:16 AM
Yeah, but stuff "available to everyone else" is pretty good. "Incarnate by the Numbers" points out that you can use a feat to get a Totemist soulmeld that boosts these skills. (And technically, the essentia that the Incarnate can put into such a soulmeld is something not available to everyone.)Except, do you know what Kruthak Claws does? Absolutely nothing, if you already have Shadow and Silent Moves on your armor. Which everyone who wants to be sneaky would, anyway. It's a competence bonus, the same as almost every other skill bonus, and you'll almost always have something else that gives a better competence bonus.

Reinboom
2008-05-22, 02:32 AM
Evil Neraphim
Beguiler 1/Incarnate 1/Beguiler +1
Use Planar Chasuble (brow) to get in to Fiend of Possession. The fastest possible.

There you go, you are now an incredible tank. Redeemed.

:smalltongue:

Chronos
2008-05-22, 10:50 AM
OK, I don't know Fiend of Possession (I'm guessing it requires you to be an outsider native to some particular lower plane), but could you get the same effect via Beguiler 2 with the Shape Soulmeld feat?

And anyway, I've already come to the conclusion that it can be worthy of a dip, in some situations. A skillmonkey would probably benefit from a single level to grab Theft Gloves and Truesight Goggles, and maybe a few levels more to build up more essentia.

Draz74
2008-05-22, 12:44 PM
Except, do you know what Kruthak Claws does? Absolutely nothing, if you already have Shadow and Silent Moves on your armor. Which everyone who wants to be sneaky would, anyway. It's a competence bonus, the same as almost every other skill bonus, and you'll almost always have something else that gives a better competence bonus.

Like I said, I'm no expert on Incarnum. :smallamused: I was just trusting the well-written thread to have taken that kind of detail into account when it claimed that Incarnates could be good skill monkeys (at least with a Rogue dip). Apparently my trust was misplaced.