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View Full Version : O-chuls level, Not an original idea (probably)



silversaraph
2008-05-18, 08:25 PM
This is another thread involving O-Chuls stats, so lets get straight to the question. What really is O-Chuls level? :smallbiggrin:

It is common thought that O-Chul is below Miko's level, and the main Oots's characters. But in a couple of cases, (I am not talking about the acid and the spikes and the shark, so you don't have to worry about such an example) such as when the castle blew up, his level doesn't make sense. O-Chul was right next to Miko when she broke the piece of the Scarl and it exploded, so both being paladins, they probably took around the same amount of damage. Miko is blown in half, so you generally would ignore fall damage because she was pretty much dead. You only would count the explosion. O-Chul was launched into the air, and fell most likely around the same distance as Roy, a high level fighter who generally is thought of as having high constitution and strength. Roy was killed, yet after both things, O-Chul was NOT. Just one of them kill Miko, the other killed Roy.

O-Chul then had even more damage dealt to him by Mitd, as he was dragged around and forced to eat fat-free scones. And he still lived.

And as shown later, he displays a considerable amount of skill, strength, and stamina, and still tries to do damage to an opponent.

Miko said that she was the most powerful paladin in the sapphire guard, and Hinjo was the second. Do we really think that this is true? She might have just been her usual self of Miko the character everyone hates. Even if she was telling the truth, there is a couple of possibilities.

Number one: Miko was talking about force in fighting, or possibly power over the law. She's unpredictable, and not many who argue with her lives, because she really doesn't care about the law. She'll bend it to her liking..

Number two: is O-Chul an official member of the sapphire guard? even though he played such an important role and triggered the awesomeness part of all of our thinking, there is very little known about him. He might have just been a friend of Hinjo, (which we know) and was visiting him from somewhere else.

What do you think? should O-Chul be the strongest member of the sapphire guard?

:smallconfused:

Emanick
2008-05-18, 09:00 PM
There was a thread about this a while back, but it's most likely dead.
I remember that the average damage O-Chul was projected to have taken in the tank was about 170, which is around the maximum hp for a paladin to have at 11th level (which is the highest he could be while being equal to or lower than Hinjo's supposed level). But honestly, now that I see your point about Miko's bias, it makes a lot of sense if Miko had simply, for a variety of inscrutable reasons, supposed Hinjo to be more powerful than O-Chul, though wrongly. (It's also possible that levels aren't all that apparant in OOtS-land, so maybe she was simply mistaken without any bias attached. There is a theory that she was romantically attached to Hinjo before she went insane, literally.)

I doubt O-Chul was at least 17th level, though. Minimum falling damage seems more likely, and a 17th level paladin would have had a good choice of avoiding paralysis by Xykon's Hold Person or Hold Monster spell, especially with his probably high Constitution. Heck, he could probably damage Xykon significantly. And what's more, he'd be the most powerful Good character of this generation (read: after SoD), and likely to have gained more screen time.
It's also possible, or even probable, that he gained some levels while in Xykon's captivity.

Hectonkhyres
2008-05-18, 09:15 PM
It's also possible, or even probable, that he gained some levels while in Xykon's captivity.
I can't see how he could possibly avoid gaining a couple of levels. He goes through an encounter every single day with such chummy abominations as acid breathing sharks in a boobytrapped pit of acid. Even if he doesn't kill said sharks, he still overcomes them... as testified by the fact that he is still alive. This means a big fat wad of exp every day of his captivity.

A good deal once you remember that Xykon and Redcloak and the others aren't... or are advancing at some trivial rate.

Callista
2008-05-18, 09:29 PM
At the time of the explosion, Miko and O-Chul were not both paladins; Miko was an ex-paladin. That means O-Chul could've had higher saves than she did at the time, even though she was higher level. Meaning that O-Chul could have saved for half damage in the explosion, and Miko not; it wouldn't have taken really improbable rolls to happen that way--especially since there could have been a rule about the person who actually destroyed the sapphire taking full (or more) damage, period, without a save.

Miko did not die from the explosion or the fall, either; it did put her at negative HP, though, and she died shortly thereafter. If you don' t land at negative HP, your death is instantaneous... But dramatic license with that rule is common (for another example, Shojo's death--if he hadn't died the round he was hit, someone would have healed him); so that particular observation isn't 100% likely to be true.

Hectonkhyres
2008-05-18, 09:38 PM
Wait... are you telling me that it is theoretically possible for someone missing half a torso to stabilize??

Chronos
2008-05-18, 11:08 PM
We are explicitly told that Miko was the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard, and Hinjo was the second most powerful. However, we're also told that O-Chul was the toughest member. This is not inconsistent: It's quite possible that O-Chul had a higher Con score than the other two, or that he had some feats to emphasize survivability, or that he just plain rolled lucky on his hit points. In any of those cases, he could well be lower level than Miko and Hinjo, and yet still be tougher than either of them.

Hallavast
2008-05-19, 12:22 AM
Wait... are you telling me that it is theoretically possible for someone missing half a torso to stabilize??

Yes.

Also, are you telling me that it is theoretically possible for someone with arms and legs composed of sticks to walk?

:smallconfused:

David Argall
2008-05-19, 12:40 AM
O-Chul tells us that Miko was his superior.
O-Chul also is seen functioning as Shojo's subordinate and as a routine member of the Saphire Guard.
Miko describes herself as the most powerful paladin and Hinjo as 2nd. [She is incorrect since she is not a paladin at all at that time, but we still get the same picture. Miko was higher level than Hinjo, who was higher than O-Chul.]

It is assumed that O-Chul had feats like improved toughness and a very high con score, and/or that he simply got lucky on the save while Miko failed it.

And of course, there was simply the needs of the plot.

And yes, this sort of thread has been showing up ever since the explosion.

Hectonkhyres
2008-05-19, 12:49 AM
Yes.
Eich. Thats nightmare fuel right there.
You are missing your intestines and even the bottom part of your lungs... and you just won't die.

Also, are you telling me that it is theoretically possible for someone with arms and legs composed of sticks to walk?

:smallconfused:
No. Their limbs just look like sticks. Think of it as really crappy video resolution. Presumably there is the whole system of bones and tendons and muscles that you or I have. After all, Xykon is a skeleton and his bones had to come from somewhere.

David Argall
2008-05-19, 01:37 AM
Eich. Thats nightmare fuel right there.
You are missing your intestines and even the bottom part of your lungs... and you just won't die.

Well, if we ignore shock and the almost immediate loss of about 3/4 of your blood supply, either of which means your survival time is measured in nanosecords, the other losses are not so bad, and, with absurdly impossible medical care, survivable for quite long periods of time. A cut at the waist and below the ribcage will miss the lungs, and rather inadequate portions of the intestines.
But the main thing that kept her alive were cliche rules. A major character can not die without final words, and generally a final speech. Any battle or other important activity ceases during this period.

Kato
2008-05-19, 02:07 AM
I think you miss the fact of O-Chul being a fighter for some time (12 years) Let's assume this being like... 6 levels, up to ten. (careful guess) If I'm not wrong fighter gain about as fast as paladins hp. Then he had already quite some when he became a paladin. Also he is quite old, maybe even twice as old as Hinjo or Miko. Even IF they state Miko to be the most powerful paladin (which is also a matter of what is powerful, though it's probably level wise) She was a monk, 'some years' so maybe 2-4 levels, considering her young age. Then O-Chul is probably a lower level paladin then Miko and Hinjo (who might have been a paladin his whole life) Though, I guess his levels are about 8 fighter+6paladin or so... though, it also might be some more... I'm not sure about the level procession of higher level characters, but when already being 8th level or so fighter, you need a lot of exp to get further, don't you? so 6-10 (top) levels of paladin are probable.

Hallavast
2008-05-19, 03:01 AM
Eich. Thats nightmare fuel right there.
You are missing your intestines and even the bottom part of your lungs... and you just won't die.

No. Their limbs just look like sticks. Think of it as really crappy video resolution. Presumably there is the whole system of bones and tendons and muscles that you or I have. After all, Xykon is a skeleton and his bones had to come from somewhere.

:smallsigh: You've perhaps missed the point. If it is believable for limbs with a width so ridiculously disproportionate to the rest of a person's body to support and facilitate walking and the other functions we've witnessed on this comic, then it is certainly believable for one to get along with only half a body for a little while.

King of Nowhere
2008-05-19, 03:05 AM
I don't think that O-Chul was allowed a reflexes save for the explosion, since he was paralized.
But Miko took falling damage like him, only off panel. She took about the same amount of damage. She could have survived the explosion and been halved by the falling.
Roy, before falling, took a finger of death, at least one other spell, and a meteor swarm, and he said that with a healing potion he could have survived the falling.
So, no need for O-Chul to be overpowered, he could just have a dozen hp more than Miko

Hectonkhyres
2008-05-19, 12:07 PM
:smallsigh: You've perhaps missed the point. If it is believable for limbs with a width so ridiculously disproportionate to the rest of a person's body to support and facilitate walking and the other functions we've witnessed on this comic, then it is certainly believable for one to get along with only half a body for a little while.
I simply assume that the universe the audience is forced to perceive is seen differently than its own characters would. You or I look at what passes for ground and we see a flat horizon with one side colored green to indicate grass. Roy, on the other hand, could probably look down and see the individual blades of grass and all the fine details.

I just think the same holds true for their own body parts. To their bearers, they don't look like sticks.

At least whenever OotS isn't in its self-defamatory humor mode.

King of Nowhere
2008-05-19, 01:58 PM
Now that I mind it, since a lot of characters in OOTS shows good damage capacity, it is possible that in OOTS people gets their full hit dice when passing a level.

silversaraph
2008-05-19, 03:16 PM
I don't think that O-Chul was allowed a reflexes save for the explosion, since he was paralyzed.
But Miko took falling damage like him, only off panel. She took about the same amount of damage. She could have survived the explosion and been halved by the falling.
Roy, before falling, took a finger of death, at least one other spell, and a meteor swarm, and he said that with a healing potion he could have survived the falling.
So, no need for O-Chul to be overpowered, he could just have a dozen hp more than Miko

A couple of things about that. Number one, Miko was right next to an explosion that completely demolished a full-scale castle and several thousand soldiers. you wouldn't really care about falling damage, you're dead. Miko seemed wide awake, and alert, even though she was blown in half. she might have dragged herself to the rock to increase the chance of living, (though small) with rest. I doubt that the falling damage actually did much to her.

O-Chul took at least as much damage as Roy when he fell, as both of them probably took maximum falling damage. They both fell on their heads and sank several inches into rock hard cement. Roy's looked like it hurt more, but that might have just been that the holes in the concrete when O-Chul fell where just minor details.

Roy was probably the only one to actually have reduced damage done to him specifically through his profession. As stated by you, O-Chul was paralyzed. Roy actually said he could hope for minimum fall damage. I doubt Roy was as injured before he fell as O-Chul, as he was right next to a giant explosion.

Hmm..

ShellBullet
2008-05-19, 03:32 PM
A couple of things about that. Number one, Miko was right next to an explosion that completely demolished a full-scale castle and several thousand soldiers.

So was O-chulu. He tried to destroy the gate before Xykon paralyzed him and he was pretty near to throne.

Querzis
2008-05-19, 04:11 PM
Guys you are all missing one really important thing: They said Miko was the most powerfull Paladin and that Hinjo was the second most powerfull Paladin! O-chul was a fighter for 12 years, he could very well be more powerfull then Miko, its just that most of those levels are fighter levels therefore hes obviously not the most powerfull paladin! Hes just a powerfull multiclass paladin/fighter.

I dont think hes really more powerfull then Miko though (but he probably have way more hp then her anyway) but O-chul is definitly more powerfull then Hinjo.

Anyway, since hes been powerleveling thanks to Xykon, I would say hes probably a fighter between level 9-11 and a paladin between level 3-4. But I'm absolutely sure hes not a level 5 paladin simply because he dont seems to have a mount, he would have used it before if he had one. Beside, the fact that he doesnt have a mount would be just great for the plot:

After O-chul defeat the undead gladiators, we hear a 'ding'. Then, when hes back in his cage, he realize hes now a level 5 paladin and that he can summon his mount. So he think about which mount could help him escape...and then we see him passing through lots of hobgobelins on his rhinoceros mount.

Or the silly version:

When he realize he can have a mount now, the MiTD become his mount. Yeah, O-chul is that awesome!

silversaraph
2008-05-19, 05:05 PM
So was O-chulu. He tried to destroy the gate before Xykon paralyzed him and he was pretty near to throne.

Exactly. They must have taken the same amount of damage, it's just that the explosion was the thing that killed Miko.

The Extinguisher
2008-05-19, 05:22 PM
Actually, I think it was the bisection that killed her.

An explosion like that wouldn't have ripped her in half unless one half was rooted to something that didn't explode. So something must have cut her through on the way down. Most likely the throne.

King of Nowhere
2008-05-19, 05:26 PM
I've got another idea. We know O-Chul has a bad charisma, which is awfully inconvenient for a paladin. Maybe most of his levels are paladin levels, and he has more levels than Hinjo, but is less powerful because he can't use his paladin's skills that need charisma, so he is pratically a fighter without bonus feats.
Maybe he also lack wisdom (he don't seem idiot, but he could have a 10), so he can't also cast spells.
This could put him to level 13-14 and still be inferior to Hinjo.
By the way, in that case he has more than 5 levels of paladins, but we never saw his mount because it's not of much use in a throne room or in a pit of acid.


They must have taken the same amount of damage, it's just that the explosion was the thing that killed Miko.
I don't see why Miko couldn't have been killed by the falling. Falling from that height could tear a body in pieces.

Kato
2008-05-19, 05:57 PM
You assume him being 13th lvl paladin? o,o
He was a fighter 12 years! these are about 8 levels or so, he'd be lvl 21, which made him like... an epic character. I like the other ideas about his stats, but this is just... way too high a level.

Saint Nil
2008-05-19, 06:01 PM
A: Stat wise/level wise, miko had more paladin levels that O-Chul, but also probably a higher charisma (explaining Roy's physical attraction). HIgher Charisma=More powerful smite Evil/More lay on hands. O-Chul probably has Toughness, high Con, etc. That is why Miko is called more powerful that O-Chul


B: O-Chul survived mainly for Deus Ex Machina reasons. That gave him a +5000000 to whatever he needed to stay alive. Plot gives great circumstance bonuses.

ShellBullet
2008-05-19, 06:07 PM
Exactly. They must have taken the same amount of damage, it's just that the explosion was the thing that killed Miko.

Since it seems that being wake about 26 hours had some effect to my comprehensive reading, could you state what excactly you were trying to state?

Hectonkhyres
2008-05-19, 07:05 PM
Hm. I'm half wondering if he is going to walk away from this with MITD as his steed and the BoED's Saint template. If anyone ever anywhere deserved one of those, it would be O-Chul.

Mando Knight
2008-05-19, 07:59 PM
I'm not sure about the level procession of higher level characters, but when already being 8th level or so fighter, you need a lot of exp to get further, don't you? so 6-10 (top) levels of paladin are probable.

Are you talking about the multiclass penalty? If so, then that guess is off because of the human preferred class...

I think that O-Chul's CON is much higher than Miko's since he started as a Fighter (WIS and CHA were less useful than the physical stats at the time). However, he survived because his Plot Shield allowed him to survive regardless of HP remaining. Miko's Monk levels vs. O-Chul's Fighter levels also suggests that though she had higher unarmored AC (WIS bonus, despite her jumping to irrational conclusions...), she had lower HP thanks to her few levels of d8 hit dice and worse CON bonus.

silversaraph
2008-05-19, 08:31 PM
Since it seems that being wake about 26 hours had some effect to my comprehensive reading, could you state what excactly you were trying to state?



Both O-Chul and Miko took the same amount of damage when the snarl exploded. I think that during the explosion, the chair pinned her while in the air and the bottom half of her body was already blown off. The fall didn't affect the damage she took, as she was already cut in half. O-Chul, however, took the damage from the explosion AND the fall. And nobody takes into account still that he was forced to eat fat-free scones. I think that would count as poison damage, and it was a while before he was brought to team evil. Paladins fight evil, not fat free scones. I hate scones, if you haven't noticed.

You should become a paraphasic sleeper. It's much simpler.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-20, 06:38 AM
Eich. Thats nightmare fuel right there.
You are missing your intestines and even the bottom part of your lungs... and you just won't die.
Good to remember that D&D doesn't have real rules for bissection or something similar. It's one of those cases where the DM needs to advocate the results. (something a lot of people thinks doesn't exist anymore in 3.x and the coming 4E....)

King of Nowhere
2008-05-20, 09:46 AM
You assume him being 13th lvl paladin? o,o
He was a fighter 12 years! these are about 8 levels or so, he'd be lvl 21, which made him like... an epic character. I like the other ideas about his stats, but this is just... way too high a level.
No, I'm assuming that he's a 13th level character, with more levels in paladin rather than fighter. Maybe 6 fighter 7 paladin? That would give him some more hit dice while keeping him less powerful than Hinjo.

Querzis
2008-05-20, 02:56 PM
No, I'm assuming that he's a 13th level character, with more levels in paladin rather than fighter. Maybe 6 fighter 7 paladin? That would give him some more hit dice while keeping him less powerful than Hinjo.

If he would be 13th level, that would make him the same level as the order back in the war so he would definitly still be a lot more powerfull then Hinjo.

You guys are doing like Nale right now, no need to overcomplicate stuff. They were talking about the most powerfull paladin and O-chul is a fighter/paladin with probably more level in fighter then paladin, simple as that.

Lupy
2008-05-20, 04:59 PM
I think Miko took more damage from absorbing the most concentrated balast, a distance of what, 12 inches when O-chul was like, a yard away? She also must have lower hp as is stated above, I think thats it. :smallcool:

silversaraph
2008-05-20, 05:08 PM
If he would be 13th level, that would make him the same level as the order back in the war so he would definitly still be a lot more powerfull then Hinjo.

You guys are doing like Nale right now, no need to overcomplicate stuff. They were talking about the most powerfull paladin and O-chul is a fighter/paladin with probably more level in fighter then paladin, simple as that.

Okay, this seems like the most popular answer, O-Chul is part fighter so he might still not be the most powerful paladin. If this logic is true, then because Hinjo's level is certified to be 11+, (lets just use twelve) then O-Chul's paladin level is at maximum 11. Someone suggested that his fighter level was eight before the war, which would make him a level nineteen which I seriously doubt. So either his fighter level is less then eight, or his paladin level is much lower. His paladin level being lower make much more sense because we have never seen him with a mount.

Ideas, anyone?

:smallconfused:

Querzis
2008-05-20, 05:29 PM
Okay, this seems like the most popular answer, O-Chul is part fighter so he might still not be the most powerful paladin. If this logic is true, then because Hinjo's level is certified to be 11+, (lets just use twelve) then O-Chul's paladin level is at maximum 11. Someone suggested that his fighter level was eight before the war, which would make him a level nineteen which I seriously doubt. So either his fighter level is less then eight, or his paladin level is much lower. His paladin level being lower make much more sense because we have never seen him with a mount.

I think his paladin levels are pretty low really. Unless he started adventuring when he was a teenager (yes I know lots of fictional character do that, but lets be realistic here) then he spent a lot more years as a fighter then as a paladin. Anyway, we know that Roy was already an adult when he got out of fighter college so it would be the same thing for O-chul. Beside, as a paladin, he was mainly just cleaning up after Mr.Scruffy. I doubt that gave him much XP.

Anyway, if hes alone its kinda impossible to escape but with a mount, even if its just a warhorse, its really not that hard to get past hobgobelins rank. Hell, even if he would be too weak to fight after a torture session, his warhorse alone would be enough to take care of the two hobgobelins who take him back to his cell. Redcloak dont wanna kill him anyway so he got nothing to lose really.

silversaraph
2008-05-20, 06:29 PM
I think his paladin levels are pretty low really. Unless he started adventuring when he was a teenager (yes I know lots of fictional character do that, but lets be realistic here) then he spent a lot more years as a fighter then as a paladin. Anyway, we know that Roy was already an adult when he got out of fighter college so it would be the same thing for O-chul. Beside, as a paladin, he was mainly just cleaning up after Mr.Scruffy. I doubt that gave him much XP.

Anyway, if hes alone its kinda impossible to escape but with a mount, even if its just a warhorse, its really not that hard to get past hobgobelins rank. Hell, even if he would be too weak to fight after a torture session, his warhorse alone would be enough to take care of the two hobgobelins who take him back to his cell. Redcloak dont wanna kill him anyway so he got nothing to lose really.

But how old is O-Chul, really? He looks like 50, or something. If he started adventuring at 20, he would still have quite a few years to be a paladin.

And also, it's even possible that he isn't escaping on purpose. We know he has a friendship with Mitd, he might be trying to escape with him.

Though I'm sure Mitd could easily bust them both out if it wanted to.

Aquillion
2008-05-20, 11:56 PM
It is common thought that O-Chul is below Miko's level, and the main Oots's characters. But in a couple of cases, (I am not talking about the acid and the spikes and the shark, so you don't have to worry about such an example) such as when the castle blew up, his level doesn't make sense. O-Chul was right next to Miko when she broke the piece of the Scarl and it exploded, so both being paladins, they probably took around the same amount of damage.There are some effects that instantly kill whoever sets them off, though (a Retributive Strike comes to mind, which is fairly similar to what Miko did -- though on a smaller scale), and do much less damage to anyone even right next to them. Basically, a plot-explosion.

It's also possible that Miko's Con simply sucked. She was a Monk / Paladin, she had the worst MAD ever. She needed just about every stat except Int. Something had to give.

bahamut920
2008-05-21, 01:56 AM
Anyway, if hes alone its kinda impossible to escape but with a mount, even if its just a warhorse, its really not that hard to get past hobgobelins rank.
Yeah, because hobgoblins are obviously far too stupid to have horses and cavalry units of their own... :smallamused:


Hell, even if he would be too weak to fight after a torture session, his warhorse alone would be enough to take care of the two hobgobelins who take him back to his cell.
And Redcloak is definitely too stupid to station hobgoblins with class levels to guard the mid-to-high-level paladin/fighter who is currently his prisoner. :smallamused:

pasko77
2008-05-21, 03:29 AM
It's also possible that Miko's Con simply sucked. She was a Monk / Paladin, she had the worst MAD ever. She needed just about every stat except Int.

On retrospective, she could have used some more INT too :smallbiggrin:

Querzis
2008-05-21, 10:51 AM
Yeah, because hobgoblins are obviously far too stupid to have horses and cavalry units of their own... :smallamused:

You already forgot AC war or what? Yes, hobgobelins got not cavalry units of their own (unless you count the death knight)...AC didnt either though (unless you count Hinjo and his wolf). I really dont see why you would expect them to have any cavalry either, the freaking level 13 PC cant even keep their mount for more then 100 strip and you would expect the normal soldier to have mounts?


And Redcloak is definitely too stupid to station hobgoblins with class levels to guard the mid-to-high-level paladin/fighter who is currently his prisoner. :smallamused:

Oh yes of course, hes also smart enough to put hobgobelins with mid-to-high-level to guard the slaves.

Oh wait, no he dont. But hes also smart enough to send him, Xykon or the MiTD against anyone who attack them or who try to escape.

Oh wait, no he dont, they send Tsukiko. What actually make you believe they even got ANY hobgobelins at all who are mid-to-high-level anyway? There certainly havent been any indication of this in the comic, quite the opposite in fact. O-chul killed one of his guard just with one feet back in 542!

Even if he would have level 5-6 hobgobelins to guard him, that still woudnt be enough if he get his mount. Hell, O-chul dont even have to fight them. Did you already forgot that three resistance factions who fight each other have been able to survive in AC for months? Its not that hard to escape the hobgobelins really, especially since O-chul is at the very least above level 11.

King of Nowhere
2008-05-21, 11:10 AM
Since O-Chul is a member of the Sapphire guard, and has paladin levels, I find unlikely that he didn't count as a paladin in the count of the strongest.

Nerdanel
2008-05-21, 01:10 PM
I think Miko and O-Chul both had to make saves vs. massive damage when the castle blew up. Miko failed and therefore was very decisively killed by bisection. O-Chul made the save and went on to receive additional falling damage which still wasn't enough to kill him.

silversaraph
2008-05-21, 03:01 PM
I think Miko and O-Chul both had to make saves vs. massive damage when the castle blew up. Miko failed and therefore was very decisively killed by bisection. O-Chul made the save and went on to receive additional falling damage which still wasn't enough to kill him.

O-Chul was paralyzed though, he wouldn't have any kind of reflex save.

bahamut920
2008-05-21, 06:20 PM
Massive damage is a Fort save though. And you're almost never denied Fort saves.