PDA

View Full Version : Shadowrun?



Lycan 01
2008-05-18, 09:28 PM
Sorry, but I'm an RPG noob of sorts. The only RPG experience I have is Arkham Horror (anybody else play that, btw? :smallsmile:), and I'm waiting 'til 4e to get into DnD. But I keep hearing things about a game called Shadowrun. So I was hoping to get some info and have a few questions answered...

I checked out the Wikipedia article, and figured out the basic plot and setting. So let me just ask a few simple questions:

1: How hard/difficult is it to learn how to play?

2: How many players and what materials are required to play?

3: How long does the average game last?

4: Is it fun? :smallconfused:

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-18, 09:48 PM
Sorry, but I'm an RPG noob of sorts. The only RPG experience I have is Arkham Horror (anybody else play that, btw? :smallsmile:), and I'm waiting 'til 4e to get into DnD. But I keep hearing things about a game called Shadowrun. So I was hoping to get some info and have a few questions answered...

I checked out the Wikipedia article, and figured out the basic plot and setting. So let me just ask a few simple questions:

1: How hard/difficult is it to learn how to play?

2: How many players and what materials are required to play?

3: How long does the average game last?

4: Is it fun? :smallconfused:

1. The Game's mechanics are different from many I've played (Mostly d20 games: D&D, Star Wars etc.), but they are logical. Some rules like the matrix can be rather complicated, but these parts of the game aren't necessary unless one of the players really wants to be a hacker.

2. You really only need the core book to start the game and player sizes within reason 1-6 aren't really an issue. Although in my experiences with the game 2-3 player games have been really good. Enough people for interaction, but it also helps the players avoid taking too long to make plans.

3. That's entirely up to the group. I've played day and half session and two hour sessions. However, players tend to spend a good deal of time planning in these types of games, unless they are in a situation of immediate danger.

4. That's up to the players and the GM, but I've had some great times with that game.

Raging_Pacifist
2008-05-18, 09:48 PM
1. Its not to hard to learn or play Shadowrun, but youll spend a good amount of time learning the rules. 2. You can play with any number of people but it works best with 4 players and a gm.And you need the basics: maps,char. sheets,minis, and dice. 3. It lasts as long as the gm lets it. 4. Yeah its pretty fun. But for the love of Gygax don't play 4E DnD. Wizards created an abomination by wrecking 3.5. Its like their brains abortioned it. PM me if you want details why.
Edit: Ninja'd

Lycan 01
2008-05-18, 09:57 PM
Actually, if Shadowrun is good enough, I'll forsake DnD for it. I want an RPG me and my friends can play, and as it stands, not all of them can play DnD due to random issues, like parents thinking its from Satan... But Shadowrun would be more accessible to all of them, which would give me... oh... 4-6possible players, compared to the 2-3 I'd have with DnD...

BRC
2008-05-18, 09:57 PM
4: Is it fun? :smallconfused:

That depends on the people playing it. If your idea of a good time involves the maximum number of dead corpses then it's proably not your game. Oh sure, you could due a totally combat based campaign, but the system isn't built around combat the way DnD Is, getting shot can mean that your character takes penalties to all rolls for the next couple weeks. Of course, if you shoot first, or just sneak/bluff your way past enemies.

It relys on having a good DM alot more than DnD Does, in many cases an inexperienced DnD DM can just make up a CR-Appropriate encounter and the group can have a good time. A Shadowrun GM needs to be able to engage his/her players on a much deeper level for the game to work. When it does, it can be an incrediably fun experience.

Lycan 01
2008-05-18, 10:00 PM
Ah, I see. Good think I'm very creative and have too much time on my hands... Making up stuff is right up my alley! :smallbiggrin:

Anybody want to give me a standard gameplay example? Perhaps a short summary of the last game you played...?

BRC
2008-05-18, 10:12 PM
Anybody want to give me a standard gameplay example? Perhaps a short summary of the last game you played...?
Here's a Generic run.

The Team
Dwarf Hacker/Rigger
Ork Weapons Specialist
Elven Face
Human Mage (or shaman).

The team is hired to break into a corporate compound and take pictures of a lab and get some data stored there. They find out that a security consultant is coming to inspect the lab, so the day the consultant was supposed to arrive the Face shows up and impersonates the consultant with the rest of the team as Specialist experts/Bodyguards. They go to inspect the lab, when they hear the actual consultant just called to say her flight was delayed. Mage Stunbolts the security guard in the lab with them, the team takes some pictures and gets the data, then has to shoot or bluff their way out. Bluffing would be preferable because the security guards will have more people. Team gets out, High tails it to a safehouse where they wait and contact the Johnson (Guy who hired them).

Thats an example of how a shadowrun might go. But the possiblities are endless.

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-18, 10:12 PM
Actually, if Shadowrun is good enough, I'll forsake DnD for it. I want an RPG me and my friends can play, and as it stands, not all of them can play DnD due to random issues, like parents thinking its from Satan... But Shadowrun would be more accessible to all of them, which would give me... oh... 4-6possible players, compared to the 2-3 I'd have with DnD...

For the 2-3 player thing I was talking about Ideal Shadowrun numbers. I play D&D in groups of 4-5 ideally.

When I played Shadowrun in 4+ (5) group we had a great time, but there were a few times we spent more than 3 hours planing. Three to the players seemed real into it, but the rest of us (including me) lost interest after the first 2 hours of planning.

It got exciting once we actually did stuff, especially since the plan fell through from the start. My troll mage distract the bulk of the guards with some flash bombs and fire spells, while the rest of the group unloaded bullets in the person we had to kill.

If your groups going to be that big and your GMing make sure you have plenty of time for the game sessions. Especially if you're all knew to the game, it will probably take a least an hour(of book keeping, rules explaining, equipment buying etc.) just to start playing.

Lycan 01
2008-05-18, 10:15 PM
Ahhh... Well, that all sounds quite fun. But time is an issue... Most of my players would only have 2-3 hours, 4 max, to stay over and play. :smallfrown:

horseboy
2008-05-18, 10:18 PM
It's a freakin' sweet game. Well 2nd was anyway. I never saw 3rd in an English trans. 4th is worse than 3.5.

BRC
2008-05-18, 10:18 PM
Ahhh... Well, that all sounds quite fun. But time is an issue... Most of my players would only have 2-3 hours, 4 max, to stay over and play. :smallfrown:
well, here's what I would do.

Have a quick meeting one day in which you introduce them to the run and let them make plans. Then, before they actually start the run (but after theyve finished the scheming, palm greasing, and legwork) end the session. Now, With their plan in mind, design the session for maximum interesting. A good player plan can lead to a boringly succsessful session, that said, don't turn their plan into a trap for your players, just...make sure it dosn't work so well it's boring. Then the next session do the run itself. I ran a run somthing like that at one point and it worked pretty well. This is especially true if you can keep the legwork intresting. Play up their contacts, have them run reconosance on the target, hunting down the specialized gear they need ect ect.

Lycan 01
2008-05-18, 10:23 PM
I suppose I should also check if my local RPG shop sells it... They sell most RPG games, but they do tend to lack certain ones at odd times. Last time I went, they had zero DnD games or kits or anything. Well, 4 boxes of minatures were on sale, but other than that... nothing. Twas odd, considering they had a full eisle of Warhammer and Lord of the Rings games, figures, kits, books, ect...

BRC
2008-05-18, 10:29 PM
Oh yeah, one more piece of advice with a generalization.

In DnD Most classes can be summed up as "I kill things like THIS"
Fighter: I kill things with pointy/heavy objects.
Barbarian: I kill things while ANGRY
Rogue: I kill things where they least expect it.
Sor/Wiz: I kill things with fire.
Ranger: I kill things with a bow.
Cleric: I help other people kill things.
Bard: I play music, things kill themselves.
Druid: Iv'e got a pet that kills things for me, or I just turn into a bear and kill things.
Monk: Theoretically, I am capable of killing things.

So, you give them things to kill and they have a purpose. In shadowrun it dosn't work like that, be sure that all your players have somthing to do in each session. That said, encourage your players to make their characters versitile and capable of doing more then killing things.

Lycan 01
2008-05-18, 10:33 PM
Basically, everyone is a Jack-Of-All-Trades, correct? Makes sense... Your hacker dies, and you need the codes from a computer in order to finish the mission, and no one else knows how to even use a keyboard... What now? Always have a back-up person! Or at least a bullet magnet to keep the hacker alive... :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the advice...

Tough_Tonka
2008-05-18, 10:48 PM
Ahhh... Well, that all sounds quite fun. But time is an issue... Most of my players would only have 2-3 hours, 4 max, to stay over and play. :smallfrown:

Its not a huge problem and it can easily be avoided. The best ways are to address excessive planing with your players out of character or to limit the amount of time available for decision making.

You can do the later all sorts of ways:

1. Plan ahead: The Shadowrunners' employer might have a more or less set plan to go with the job offer. To keep things interesting have stuff the employer didn't plan for occur and force the players to think on their toes.

2. The clock's running: The players don't have much time to make plans. The players might only have a few hours to do their job, or they might be on the run from the police or a powerful gang. Either way they don't have time too much time before they can't complete the objective or the door gets busted open by renta-cops.

DrowVampyre
2008-05-18, 10:53 PM
I'd just like to add that Shadowrun is very versatile in mission design, too. You can adapt it to be basically exactly what your group wants to do, whether that's combat, intrigue, detective work, or whatever. Oh, and 4th edition isn't universally bad, like some people think. It's kind of a divisive thing - some people love it, some people hate it. I, personally, love 4th edition, just as much as I love 3rd edition.

Gorbash Kazdar
2008-05-18, 11:09 PM
Oh, and 4th edition isn't universally bad, like some people think. It's kind of a divisive thing - some people love it, some people hate it. I, personally, love 4th edition, just as much as I love 3rd edition.
Seconded.

In any case, my experience has been that the key skill to running or playing Shadowrun is that you have to be able to think on your feet. The game heavily encourages thinking outside the box and lots of double dealing, so your players will be coming up with unorthodox solutions a lot. Also, it's a game where the GM shouldn't shy away from throwing a wrench in the player's plans on a regular basis. You don't want to put them in a situation where they can't succeed, but success is often not a forgone conclusion. Most 'runners end up with a failed mission or two under their belts eventually, so don't be afraid to play out failure if they mess up.

Of course, that last feature leads to a lot of TPKs on newbie groups, since many are used to games where they never cut and run. Bailing on a run going south is something it can take a while for players to learn to do. I personally suggest reading some cyberpunk (Neuromancer is the place to start; the new Shadowrun novels themselves are decent as well) before you start.

Oh, yeah, and remember: Never cut a deal with a dragon.

TheOOB
2008-05-18, 11:39 PM
I've had mixed experiences with shadowrun 4e. The setting is great, as is the role playing potential, but there are a few huge problems that I feel need to be worked out before I would ever play the game again.

First, the character creation is horrible. The BP system is basically designed to make it so you either rock at something (having 5 in an attribute and 4, 5, or 6 in a skill) or suck in it(1 in an attribute and 0 in a skill). Anything else is horribly BP inefficient. Also some characters (mages, street samurai) can get uber powerful, while some (most notably adepts) have trouble being good at creation. In addition, the discrepancy between the races is far to great. Being a troll doesn't cost a great deal, but those are permenate attribute bonuses no one else will every be able to get.

Next, magic is overpowered. Period. A single mana bolt can kill most foes, without generating significant drain, and astral projection is way to powerful(especially when you realize you can summon spirits and they can materialize to do your dirty work leaving you out of harms way in the astral plane.

Third, damage is way too nasty. 9 out of 10 times, the person who gets the first attack wins, oftentimes giving the enemies no chance to retaliate, especially if some of the more broken weapons are brought in (assault rifle with stick n' shock anyone?). This actually discourages good tactics and encourages a kick in the door style play, which shadowrun isn't about.

Finally, Unwired hasn't come out, and the matrix will forever be broken until it does.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-19, 12:03 AM
Opinion Alert


1: How hard/difficult is it to learn how to play?

If you focus your field of interest on a single aspect of the game (like the matrix, or magic, or guns and weaponry) you should be fine. The first time I played, I was an ex-guard who worked for some megacorp (can't remember witch one) and I was more pistols and rifles. Most of my potency was in finding contacts and information before the job.



2: How many players and what materials are required to play?

You can go with the single Shadowrun book. It would be easier to plan things out with more people. Challenges, at least in our group, where a ton of planning and contingencies. Lets face it, the fun is in doing less than legal things, thats why you are a runner... so the more people you have that are competent, and are doing things, the better.



3: How long does the average game last?


Largely depends on how the planning works out and how malicious your gm is. One job took my group a week and a half just to plan it out and gather enough credible info. The actual performance was a few ours.



4: Is it fun? :smallconfused:

In a perfect world all table top is fun. The Point Buy system is very tedious at character creation. But if you can get past that, and realizing how fragile many characters are, a normal game should turn out very exciting.

PS: I would like to add that spirits are more powerful than either the Matrix or Magic. Game breaking depends on the players.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 12:17 AM
Third, damage is way too nasty. 9 out of 10 times, the person who gets the first attack wins, oftentimes giving the enemies no chance to retaliate, especially if some of the more broken weapons are brought in (assault rifle with stick n' shock anyone?). This actually discourages good tactics and encourages a kick in the door style play, which shadowrun isn't about.
Real life is the same way. And giving the enemy no chance to retaliate is very, very good tactics.

But really, if your run doesn't go really, really badly then combat shouldn't happen. Most of the time you are hitting an at least semi legit target and they can call in reinforcements that you don't have the firepower to handle.

Hawriel
2008-05-19, 06:26 AM
Well I highly recomend getting 3rd ed. You can find them very easily on amazon. Some older adventre books. 2nd and 3rd. I highly very dreking highly recomend any book written by Nigel Findly. He was one of the main writters. He is very good.

Shadowrun is Noir. dark and opressive. I reccomend the following movies for getting the feal of the world.

Bladerunner.
Its a must the setting of that movei is shadowrun. Just take out the skinjobs then add in a troll or elf thats it.
Robocop.
A corp OCP owns Detroit. The relation between OCP and the goverment in the movie fits shadowrun very well. In the game Detoit is owned/controled by a mega corp named Ares. Also Robocop is britty much one bolt away from being a cyberzombie. His targetting computer is how a smartlink works.

Johny Numonic.
I know its a Keanu movie but hay it fits shadowun to a T. This movie is basicly a shadowrun gone horrably wrong. With big reprocusions. Just as a run is supposed to be alot more than the Johnson told you.

Tron.
Its Tron. if you have not seen this yet your parents have deprived you of a proper childhood. This is a good movie for finding insperation for the matrix.

Ghost in the shell.
Anime movie. another nice movie to find insperation about the trix, cyberware and plot.

Ronin.
a movie about a bunch of mercs who are highered to do a job.
Any caper movie. Weather its a thieft or a conjob.

Ok anough of the movie talks. I just think its the best way to find insparatation and visualisation for stories and settings.

In 3rd edition magic is not over powered. There is always drain. That is the main consiquence for using magic. Whether its casting a spell or conjering a spirit. Second is sustaining spells. Spells that "buff" are not cast and forget. a mage/shaman must sustain them. That adds to all target numbers for any action. Foci can get around some of this to a point. Use to many foci and the mage becomes addicted bad things happen. A mage gets injured badly they run the rist of losing magic. Also the law of Colt. As the saying goes "God created man. Sam Colt made them equel."

Tips for the Matrix.
Dont do it for awile. just learn the combat, magic and skill systems first for afew weeks or what ever. Just read the books and go over the matrix rules untill you feal comfterbul enough to introduce them. If a player really wants to deck play some games just with him on off days to get the hang of the system. Then you can learn how to short hand it and have a Decker play in real time with the rest of the party.
Vehicle combat.
Its a pain. review them run a chase seen with your group using the full rules. Get pissed at the rules. Then short hand them. The vehicle creation rules are really fun.

Ok Im really sleepy its 740am and I have not slepped in almost 24 hourse. Im sorry for any incohearincy or really bad spelling. I sleep now.

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-19, 07:14 AM
I've played 2nd and 3rd edition. While I own some 4th edition books, I haven't had a chance to play it yet.

4th will probably be the easiest to use. It seems to be a fairly divisive issue, but I think it goes in some good directions. One of the main reasons for the split is that now Hackers can take control of other people's implants. ("Stop hitting yourself!" *smash* "Stop hitting yourself!" *draw blood* "Stop hitting yourself!" *stops moving*) It makes no sense from a security perspective that they could be vulnerable like this. Fortunately, this is Dystopia and it's easy to make up reasons ("Stupid laws got put in", "It makes it easier to control people." that kind of thing)


The fact that you've played Arkham Horror is good. It's definitely an approach you can take Shadowrun too. The great thing about the game is that there are many different ways you can go with it. It'll probably get a bit boring if you turn it into "murder everything". But you can also have it turn into a mystery. I don't think it's done very often, but you could probably have missions where you hardly every attack anything.


Once you've played Shadowrun, D&D is almost traumatic in comparison :P

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 07:37 AM
I've played 2nd and 3rd edition. While I own some 4th edition books, I haven't had a chance to play it yet.

4th will probably be the easiest to use. It seems to be a fairly divisive issue, but I think it goes in some good directions. One of the main reasons for the split is that now Hackers can take control of other people's implants. ("Stop hitting yourself!" *smash* "Stop hitting yourself!" *draw blood* "Stop hitting yourself!" *stops moving*) It makes no sense from a security perspective that they could be vulnerable like this. Fortunately, this is Dystopia and it's easy to make up reasons ("Stupid laws got put in", "It makes it easier to control people." that kind of thing)
Actually thats not quite true. You can disable wireless on anything you want. And Augmentation goes on a bit more about cyberware and security, a lot of the wireless was passive stuff and diagnostics.

Is it possible to hack cyber? Sure. Is it easy? Not in the least. Can it be made impossible? Sure.

BRC
2008-05-19, 08:55 AM
Next, magic is overpowered. Period. A single mana bolt can kill most foes, without generating significant drain, and astral projection is way to powerful(especially when you realize you can summon spirits and they can materialize to do your dirty work leaving you out of harms way in the astral plane.

Third, damage is way too nasty. 9 out of 10 times, the person who gets the first attack wins, oftentimes giving the enemies no chance to retaliate, especially if some of the more broken weapons are brought in (assault rifle with stick n' shock anyone?). This actually discourages good tactics and encourages a kick in the door style play, which shadowrun isn't about.

Finally, Unwired hasn't come out, and the matrix will forever be broken until it does.

Yes, in Shadowrun combat is deadly, which is why the game isn't built around combat. Yes the PC's are toast against enemies with automatic weapons, which is why you avoid combat. The deadlyness of combat Discourages a Kick-in-the-door style if the DM makes sure to give the enemies the upper hand in combat.
If you guard the secret lab with a couple rent-a-cops with streetlight specials, of course your PC's are just going to shoot the place up. However, if you guard it with big, well trained security guards with armor, SMGs,drones, and magical security backup, then the PC's need to be subtle.
Also, when astrally projecting all drain is physical damage.

Gorbash Kazdar
2008-05-19, 10:06 AM
Dropping in with some links to (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80542) other recent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78529) Shadowrun threads, as they might be a good place to get some ideas for missions and so forth.