Best build with 8 in all stats?

[Aquillion]

I noticed this in one of the endless monk threads:

A monk with an 8 in all stats will suck beyond all belief. Would you care to show us what a monk (or any character) with an 8 in all stats can do besides suck?
Now, monk aside, it occurs to me that there actually are some classes that can at least partially not suck with 8 in all stats -- they'll be outclassed by other people, sure, but they can still be competent. The most obvious class to come to mind is Rogue (which is a bit ironic, since rogues are also a class that can benefit from many different good stats) -- even with 8 int, you'll still be able to max several skills, and since your SA damage isn't dependant on any stat you'll still be able to do decent damage if you can just work out a way to hit. You'll probably have to invest most of your WBL into things that give you a bonus to hit in one way or another, but it seems to me that a rogue could actually contribute with those stats, even if they're not going to be as good as everyone else.

Druid is also quite playable with 8 in every stat -- sure, you lose your casting completely unless / until you invest heavily on +wis items, but the horrible thing is that Druid is so good that you're still fairly competent. You've still got your animal companion and Wild Shape, so even if you're no longer overwhelming you should be able to hold your own.

[Solo]

Well, I suppose you could make a Warlock.

But any character, even a Druid, with an 8 in all stats is going to suck compared to a character with positive modifiers.

[Eldariel]

Rogue is the big one, I think. Thanks to stealth (may need to invest feats there), you can avoid being targeted, and flatfooted opponents have way lower AC so they're easier to hit. Also, your prime tactic is just sneaking behind people, which you can still pull off. 4-level Fighter dip for BAB and Weapon Mastery may be in order. Oh yeah, the biggest thing is, you get to max out UMD, making you apt caster on the midlevels (the only one really in this setting). You still have 7-8 (if Human, as you should be) skillpoints per level, so max:
Hide
Move Silently
Search
Disable Device
Use Magic Device
Tumble
(Spot)
(Listen)
or miscellaneous stuff for synergies (you'll need them to make up for your poor scores) and abilities (5 ranks in Balance)

Barbarian is another one. You have a high Hit Die and your Rage gets you even more. You also get bonuses to hit and you only need Strength and Con anyways, the stats that get boosted in Rage. You get enough points to max few skills. Gonna be squishy, but since a Barbarian, still quite durable. Frenzied Berserker is immortal during combat and gets further bonuses, so I'd go that way. You can end Frenzies by focusing all your feats on it (Extra Rage is a must early on though; you need to Rage to be passable and you'll want Reckless Rage). Improved Toughness would be must as a feat. You'll mostly deal damage with Rage Str and Power Attack though, which means you'll probably need Shock Trooper.

Warlock is also great. You still get all your Invocations no problem and your attacks are Touch Attacks (damage independent of stats), so you'll be fine in that regard. You also get flight real early so you'll be tough to kill. Just stay away from stuff which gives saving throws and work with skill ranks and you'll be fine. Oh yeah, and Damage Reduction should cut down the ranged damage. These can also be kinda sneaky.

Crusader seems to be made for something like this; huge HP pool, built-in attack/damage increasing ability, able to wear heavy armor (you want heavy armor with 8 Dex), strikes that increase damage to passable levels as long as they hit and so on.

Druid is indeed ok, but has kinda low HP to be a frontliner and without magic, the whole 'stormcrow' plan loses the 'storm'-part. Your animal companion will kick ass though.

Bard could do some of his stuff, but nothing amazing and since they aren't amazing to start with, it could be a tough position. Still, they're mostly Rank-based and their Bardic Music doesn't really require Charisma, so optimize Inspire Courage and you're ok.

Actually, the best build for would probably be a Super Mount-build, as your stats matter absolutely NOT AT ALL for that. So be a Halfling and go to town.


I'd say the best 2 out of the base classes are Rogue and Warlock, since skills can still do their thing and they have decent combat contributions too, and the abilities to keep themselves alive. Super Mount for overall 'being good' though as the point of the whole build is that the core character doesn't matter.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Warlock is fine, if you choose no-save, AoE invocations. A 1st leveller with Summon Swarm is no worse off for having 8s than 18s, other than HP.

Druid is viable after level 7, when you can Wildshape all day.

Other than that, most of the classes are screwed.

[RTGoodman]

You'll probably have to invest most of your WBL into things that give you a bonus to hit in one way or another, but it seems to me that a rogue could actually contribute with those stats, even if they're not going to be as good as everyone else.

But then the problem is that you can do some sneak attack damage, but since it's much harder to get SA while ranged (especially if your Hide isn't great, with that 8 Dex and the heavier armor you'll undoubtedly be wearing), you'll be forced into melee, where the 1d6-1 HP per level is gonna suck. And again, AC is gonna be low from a low Dex, though you could at least get the heaviest light armor for what, +4 AC (and -2 ACP).

I'd almost say that a ToB class would be best with all 8s. With Diamond Mind you can use Concentration for a lot of stuff, and you can rely on various stances and counters for defense and big strikes (Divine Surge for Crusaders, etc.) for damage. I'd probably go with Warblade (for the better access to more than three martial schools, a d12 HD, and still having heavy armor), with probably Crusader and Swordsage slightly behind. Swordsage is gonna be squishy, but has mobility and ranged maneuvers (Shadow Garrote or whatever it's called, etc.).

[Chronos]

Even better than druid, in this case, is the wildshape variant ranger, going into Master of Many Forms. Ranger gives you more skill points and BAB than the equivalent druid, plus a few bonus feats (some of which are prereqs for MoMF, I believe). MoMF also removes the limitation on the ranger's wild shape, so there's no downside to ranger over druid, other than a weaker companion. When wildshaped, you use the new form's physical scores, and you'll be primarily a melee character, so you don't care too much about the mental scores. Heck, you could pull this off with all 3s, if you can somehow survive the first four levels.

[Eldariel]

Now that I think of it again, the Rogue-build should probably focus solely on Sniping, picking up all the Sniping-related feats that remove penalties to sniping, then add Hide-boosting ones (and DARKSTALKER!) and maybe Ranged Weapon Mastery. Basically, the Rogue needs to hit fast and hard and stay undetected, like real Rogue instead of the usual flanker of D&D.

[Solo]

But here's the problem with most of our builds: they are OMGWTFBBQNONCORE!!!

[Myshlaevsky]

But here's the problem with most of our builds: they are not EPIC FAIL MONKS.

Fixed that for you.

EDIT: Fixed it for myself.

[Reel On, Love]

Wild Shape ranger variant is the best for this.

[Draz74]

Ubermount builds (or, similarly, Leadership cheese) indeed win.

After that, Wildshape Ranger, Warlock, and Dragonfire Adept seem to be the best you can pull off. Crusader's not a terrible option, either.

Rogue, Druid? Meh. Might be able to not be completely worthless. Perhaps Dragon Shaman, Incarnate, Totemist, and Warblade could also get by.

[Frosty]

I'd go with a Vow of Poverty Druid. you need all the stat boosts you can get to cast, and Wildshape will shore up your physical stats. Use your animal companian to help out early on and hope your party can protect your frail, frail self.

[Cuddly]

VoP sorcerer could also work, if you (ab)used polymorph. And started above level 1.

[Tengu]

I'd go with a Vow of Poverty Druid. you need all the stat boosts you can get to cast, and Wildshape will shore up your physical stats. Use your animal companian to help out early on and hope your party can protect your frail, frail self.

The amusing thing is that even with 8 in Con, druids are still tougher than most wizards and many rogues.

[Sholos]

I think some people are forgetting that the 8 in STR is going to severely limit what kind of armor you can wear without getting into some nasty penalties. In short, none of the melee builds are going to be very survivable (excepting the Druid after accessing Wildshape). You're going to have low AC and HP, which means you're going to get killed fast.

[Tsotha-lanti]

VoP sorcerer could also work, if you (ab)used polymorph. And started above level 1.

I can see how a wildshaping druid might kinda work with Wis 8 (I guess you won't need to take Natural Spell), but how can a Cha 8 Sorcerer work in any way? You can't cast spells. Even with VoP, you'll never be casting the highest-level spells for your class levels.

[pasko77]

Monk.
Cause you have an excuse for sucking.

[Funkyodor]

How about a Human Fighter/Rogue focusing in as many luck feats from complete rogue as possible. Call him Joxer (Xena reference). And *bampf*, you've got yourself an inept character who thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread. Screw playing the game from a stat/numbers perspective. You need to make the character so interesting the DM will make excuses to keep him alive, AKA Plot Armor.

[Curmudgeon]

I'd go with a human Rogue, plus a 1-level Cleric dip, and focus on using a light crossbow for sneak attacking, for three reasons:

Sneak attack damage scales independent of your stats.
You'll only need to enhance one of your uniformly weak stats (Dexterity) to be effective in combat and stay out of trouble.
With 8 skill points per level you can still be effective at several tasks. Max out your Dexterity-based skills and you should be in good shape.

Spend your gp on the following:
Gloves of Dexterity
numerical enhancements for your crossbow
quick loading enhancement (Magic Item Compendium) for your crossbow
splitting enhancement (Champions of Ruin) when you can afford it (high levels, because +5 numerical enhancement and +1 cost for quick loading means this additional +3 cost is an extra 90,000 gp)
Armor with Greater Shadow Moves to give you +15 to Hide. You don't care too much about the AC boost (because you'll be trying to stay unnoticed and hence untargeted), but you need this!

For feats I recommend the following:
Crossbow Sniper (Players Handbook II) lets you sneak attack up to 60' and adds half your Dexterity bonus to damage.
Craven (Champions of Ruin) adds +1 point/character level to your sneak attack damage.
Improved Initiative helps you get off sneak attack shots against flat-footed foes at the start of combat.
Rapid Shot gives you 1 more shot each full attack.

Feats are precious to a Rogue, and you'll need prerequisites for the above such as Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus (light crossbow), so you should look at ways to get more feats, including taking flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) if your DM permits. You can use a 1-level Cleric dip for a couple of domains with their granted powers, many of which include feats; plus it shores up your two weak saves. Elf gives you Point Blank Shot, and Time gives you Improved Initiative. There are also other options that can help you out, such as Celerity, which bumps your base speed by +10' to help you run away from trouble.

[Kurald Galain]

Commoner. Because they can use UMD to win.

Seriously though, I'd vote for warlock; they're the easiest to get funky abilities that aren't stat dependent. You can have all the blasting, shattering, spiderclimbing fun you want at level two regardless of stats.

[SoD]

And I'll be the (one, two, three, four, five, six...) seventh to vote warlock.

Nothing else would work that well...although I'll second commoner.

[Deepblue706]

Core:

Human Fighter1/Barbarian1/RogueX (I'd say go Halfling, but at 6 STR, that'll suck).

level 1: grab Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Improved Initiative. Your 8 skill points go to Ride (at +3) and Use Magic Device (+1). You need a lance, and heavy armor. Try to get a mount as well - you'll probably be so encumbered that you need something that can transport you.

level 2: Barbarian gets you much needed STR, CON, and a bonus to Will saves. Also, more skill points, all of which go into Ride and UMD (still cc).

level 3: Spirited Charge as a feat for better damage, and Sneak Attack is good against those whom you beat in initiative first round of combat (unless they're immune). All of those delicious skill points go into UMD, and Ride if you can spare. You need a very good ride skill in order to succeed on checks to negate damage to your mount, but you want UMD so you can at least make use of wands, etc.

Continue with Rogue and you have Evasion, which is great, considering your lack of CON. As you continue with Rogue levels, you will also obtain Slippery Mind, which will give you more defenses against magic. More SA means your first charge of an encounter is likely to be fairly deadly, and I don't think I need to explain how UMD helps. Your BAB won't be top-notch, so you won't have multiple attacks too soon. That doesn't matter, however, as you're only supposed to be charging from atop your mount.

Of course, being a mounted fighter in a dungeon-crawl campaign means you're essentially useless (unless you're small), so don't accept any jobs that require you to go where your horse can't.

Or, alternatively, use your money to hire a wizard to cast Reduce Person on you (unless your party mage can do it). But you'll still need a smaller mount, as this spell only works on humanoids. That's okay - just bring your ever-loyal dog with you.

Make sure you always have a tower shield, and use full-defense if bad things start to happen (with low CON and DEX, this may be something that occurs often). Hopefully, your allies will kill things as you whimper from behind your fortress. Should an enemy turn away and be made vulnerable, you can throw down your shield and stab it from behind, making great use of your sneak attack damage. Afterwards, crawl back into your shell. This is your form of your Rogue's "hiding". The "move silently" part may prove more difficult to emulate...though, I suppose, if you're mounted, you have a better ability, called "run away".

I can't think of much else. Grab feats that boost this concept's abilities - skill focus: Ride helps, as does Animal Affinity, Magical Aptitude, etc. If you feel up to some ranged combat, Rapid Reload + Light Crossbow is worth noting, since you won't have a STR penalty in using it. Mounted Archery will give you fewer penalties from shooting while atop the mount, so that's worth considering, as well.

When you get beyond the first few levels, you'll have stat-boosting gear. Make sure you can get your STR to 13 as soon as possible (using level bonuses as well), so you can actually get Power Attack. If you happen to be using Complete Warrior, you want Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper.

You'll need as much as you can to boost your physical stats - but don't worry about mentals. Ever. It's beyond the point where you should care about tripping, now. And you're going to fail saves. Accept your weaknesses, and just tell your fellow party members to compensate for it.

[Kurald Galain]

For a weird idea - play a wizard!

With 8 int, you won't be able to cast spells... however, you do get a familiar. Who will, incidentally, be superior to you in most if not all aspects. Here's your chance to shine as the Blackwing, who employs some human as a pack animal.

Yes, yes, I suppose you could be a druid's animal companion instead. But this sounds funnier.

[Animefunkmaster]

Let me address the rogue not sucking (The goal will be flat footed ranged touch AC):

-Wand of Acid Splash (This will be crazy cheap and a good source of touch attacks for which to use sneak attacks on).
-Eggshell Grenades (If no one has heard me before about how great these suckers are for 10 gp a pop, they should look them up now. OA, ranged touch attack or blind for 1d4 rounds, weak chance of getting those around the person).
-Nets, Ranged Touch Attack or Entangled... yes please.
-Use Magic Device, Skill focus Use Magic Device... will help to get an edge over the magically impaired all 8 stat-ers.
-Dips in Fighter or Warblade (Realistically just for bab and feats, possibly twf, but be cautious of skill points).
-Dips in Swordsage
-Changling Rogue Sub levels for more skills
-For those who are core only, a level dip in Horizon Walker and Shadow Dancer can really make it nasty.
-Higher levels you will want to use scorching ray and eventually meteor swarm for damage. But still keep up with those tasty eggshell grenades.

[Squash Monster]

Druid 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Druid 5

Get a riding dog animal companion; this is your contribution until level 5. From then on, just use wildshape to be something beefy and pretend you're the fighter.

If you can, play as a goliath so you can eventually qualify for knockback when you get the strength enhancing items needed.

[Eldariel]

I'd say Supermount pretty much wipes the floor with most Druid-builds in this challenge.

Strongheart Halfling:
Fey Bard 1 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Endurance, Mounted Combat (Flaw: Slow)
Cleric 1 (Animal, Nobility Domains) - Alertness
Fey Bard 2 - Track
Martial Monk 1 - Rapid Shot
Fighter 1 - Mounted Archery
PrC Ranger 1 - Devoted Tracker
PrC Paladin of Freedom 1
PrC Paladin of Freedom 2
Beastmaster 1 - Dragon Cohort
Halfling Outrider 1
Wild Plains Outrider 1
Halfling Outrider 2 - Celestial Mount
Halfling Outrider 3
Halfling Outrider 4
Halfling Outrider 5 - Holy Mount
Halfling Outrider 6
Halfling Outrider 7
Halfling Outrider 8 - Theurgic Mount
Halfling Outrider 9
Halfling Outrider 10

Basically, you get a Mount/Animal Companion of ~30 levels on both sides (it's a Celestial Dragon too) and pretty much that's your contribution to the party. Of course, if not playing with Martial Monk, it gets a lot harder as you can't qualify for Prestige Ranger without Rapid Shot, which you need 13 Dex for (normal Ranger isn't available when using Prestige, obv). Or well, weaker, as you'll only get some 20th level AC and Mount. That'll still be more than enough to wipe the floor with anything else available in this challenge though; your character is going to suck anyways so might as well make sure you contribute otherwise.

Even if you Wildshape, your Con still determines your HP, meaning you'll have the same HP as a 10 Con Rogue without any of the stealth. Therefore I'd say 'screw participating, just send your 50 HD Dragon Cohort in there instead'. Yes, you have way-beyond-epic animal companion later in the game, and it'll be a full advancement even early on, so you'll be fine at the very least.

[Lemur]

Bard 5/Dirgesinger 5/Seeker of the Song 10
Pick up Able Learner (to keep up UMD after you start prcing) and Doomspeak, and as much Extra Music as you can fit in.

Yes, you're taking some typically ignored prcs, and giving up any chance at real spellcasting, but you wouldn't be able to anyway without magical gear. Pump charisma to try to improve your DC for Doomspeak, which should still manage to be decent since it's 10+character level (not 1/2 your level)+Cha. Other than that, the core of your abilities will be based on your ranks in Perform. Ironically, your best music will come from Dirgesinger, not Seeker of the Song, but SotS will still give you Combine Music (useful in combination with Doomspeak) as well as some healing and spellcasting interruptions.

You won't really come into your own until you get Song of Grief, but once you get that and Song of Horror, you'll be able to do pretty well for an understudy, what with the ability score damage and confusion that works on the undead. You won't need to rely on the DM to let you have specific magic items to use your abilities, and UMD give you a shot at using whatever you do come across.

[Cuddly]

I can see how a wildshaping druid might kinda work with Wis 8 (I guess you won't need to take Natural Spell), but how can a Cha 8 Sorcerer work in any way? You can't cast spells. Even with VoP, you'll never be casting the highest-level spells for your class levels.

Well, you get what, +8 enhancement bonus to one score, and +5 from levels, right?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Well, you get what, +8 enhancement bonus to one score, and +5 from levels, right?

Okay, so by level 20 (or a bit earlier) you can cast your highest-level spells. How do you survive up there, again?

[Bayar]

Jermlaine Druid. -6 STR, +6 DEX -2 CON -2 INT +6 WIS -6 CHA.

Stats after racial:

STR: 2
DEX: 14
CON: 6
INT: 6
WIS: 14
CHA: 2

You now have a marginally playable Tiny Druid Fey. Get level 5 and wildshape into something bigger.

It would be probably banned though.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, so by level 20 (or a bit earlier) you can cast your highest-level spells. How do you survive up there, again?

Well, if you can make it to 3rd, and someone without such limits is willing to support you, a 2nd level spell (Owl's Wisdom for a Druid, Eagle's Splendor for a Sorcerer) can get you to the point where you can cast... 2nd level spells. Eh.

If you can make it to 6th, Leadership is open (although you'll have a very low leadership score).

Alternately, you can take my older brother's view on how to run a rogue. That is, if your rear end is on the line for a roll, you've already lost. You'd be amazed what you can do with enough info.

[Bayar]

Better yet. Be a cleric and grab Animal Devotion. Death devotion at low levels. Use your negative level dealing weapon to weaken opponents and use the Hawk ability of Animal Devotion to fly out of harm's way. Pick Charm domain for Charm person and the +4 CHA power and Undead domain for the Extra turning feat.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Jermlaine Druid. -6 STR, +6 DEX -2 CON -2 INT +6 WIS -6 CHA.

Stats after racial:

STR: 2
DEX: 14
CON: 6
INT: 6
WIS: 14
CHA: 2

You now have a marginally playable Tiny Druid Fey. Get level 5 and wildshape into something bigger.

It would be probably banned though.

One : The DM would probably throw some str-poison at it, and it couldn't carry itself anymore.
Two : Some CHA-poison, so bad cha nobody would be even want to be near him.

[Solo]

One : The DM would probably throw some str-poison at it, and it couldn't carry itself anymore.
Two : Some CHA-poison, so bad cha nobody would be even want to be near him.

True Strike + Ray of Exhaustion

[Bayar]

True Strike + Ray of Exhaustion

Nah, just Ray of Exaustion. A touch score of 12 isnt that hard to beat. Dont waste 2 spells for that.

[Solo]

Nah, just Ray of Exaustion. A touch score of 12 isnt that hard to beat. Dont waste 2 spells for that.

Ish also Tiny, on top of the 14 dex.

[Bayar]

Ish also Tiny, on top of the 14 dex.

Good point *slaps self*

Still, a 14 is not that hard to beat.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Alternately, you can take my older brother's view on how to run a rogue. That is, if your rear end is on the line for a roll, you've already lost. You'd be amazed what you can do with enough info.

That sounds more like a (any) cyberpunk game than D&D, though.

[mabriss lethe]

lemme see. I think you could get away with playing a binder. sure, you'd never make a good deal with your vestiges, but who cares. Second level would grant you pact augmentation, which you could use make yourself slightly more survivable. The later soulguard abilities would grant you a host of useful immunities if you lived long enough to collect on them.

Anyone, regardless of class, could burn a feat or two to pick up SLA feats like necropolis born or Nighthaunt, soul of the North... etc.

In the same vein, The Pactbinder (or whatever it's called) feat could also prove useful in the right build. possibly more useful than the SLA feats...

[Cuddly]

Okay, so by level 20 (or a bit earlier) you can cast your highest-level spells. How do you survive up there, again?

Thus the caveat. Duh.