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jcsw
2008-05-19, 02:57 AM
So I'm gonna start DMing a campaign ranging from level 5 to level 10, but basically, I want the PCs (there will probably be 4 of them) to encounter some dervishes around level 9. Since my players don't optimize much (with one exception), I thought it would be fun to make them fight 2 level 9 dervishes (yes, same as their level) which are optimized as much as possible, so to what extent can you help make the following more optimized:

Human Fighter2/Swordsage3/Dervish4

Feats:
1 Dodge
1 Mobility
1 Weapon Focus (Battleaxe)
2 Combat Expertise
3 Weapon Focus (Scimitar) (Bonus from Swordsage)
3 Improved Trip
6 Desert Dodge (ToB)
6 Two Weapon Fighting (from taking desert dodge when I already have dodge)
8 Spring Attack (Bonus from Dervish)
9 High Sword Low Axe (Comp. Warrior)

bigbaddragon
2008-05-19, 06:31 AM
Build: Ranger 2/Scout 4/Dervish 3
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertize, Weapon Finesse, (Expeditious) Dodge, TWF, Improved Skirmish (Scout level 4 bonus feat) and Swift Hunter.

Can't elaborate more now, I'm at work :smallbiggrin:

its_all_ogre
2008-05-19, 08:50 AM
you are aware that two equal level well optimised characters can fairly easily slaughter 4 non-optimised characters in fairly short order?

make them at least one level lower and you might only give them a humiliating kicking instead......maybe

i tied up my entire level 7 party with a single multi-classed archer in a ruined city, they'd just used up most of their spells dealing with some wights, troll skeletons backed up by an undead spellcasting dire lion (don't ask) when this undead archer pops up making hit and run attacks.
(scout 1/fighter 2/psychic warrior 2. point blank shot, psionic shot, shot on the run, dodge mobility, side step charge, precise shot and weapon focus long bow)
gets psi-focus one round, next round pops into view fires and moves out of view again. next round regains focus, full round action. repeat last round.
this carried on for some time. occasionally he'd run off for a bit hide elsewhere while regaining his focus!
also the undead side gave some spell like abilities (ray of enfeeblement, kelgores grave mist and ray of exhaustion) so he could do one of those in place of shooting if focus-free.

jcsw
2008-05-19, 09:41 AM
My players aren't THAT bad at optimizing, my country is full of born optimizers, but searching through books for feats and trying to get 10 attacks a round does not appeal to my friends, (not so for me) and there's one who optimizes well too.

Oh and I forgot to explain the build:
Using dervish dance, and a potion of haste, enter combat by running to nearest player and full attack, which at that level with 16 Str, and +2 weapons is +15BAxe/+15Scimitar/(FreeTripAttempt if hit with both weapons)/(FreeAttackonTrippedOpponent)/(Cleave, if trip was successful, dancing to new target and hitting with Scimitar)/+15BAxe(New Target)/(FreeTripAttempt)/(FreeAttackonTrippedOpponent)/+10BAxe

-The free trips come from High Sword, Low Axe which allows a free trip attempt if I hit a target with both a Sword Attack and an Axe Attack in the same round
-Cleave comes from dervish level 3 which gives me cleave when I'm in dervish dance

Gorbash
2008-05-19, 09:46 AM
My players aren't THAT bad at optimizing, my country is full of born optimizers...

And where are you from?

jcsw
2008-05-19, 10:00 AM
And where are you from?

Singapore.

Talya
2008-05-19, 10:04 AM
Optimizania.

serow
2008-05-19, 10:14 AM
Singapore.Why harlow! From Singapore too ~

Gorbash
2008-05-19, 10:22 AM
Optimizania.

Ha... Ha... Ha... :smallconfused:

I'm sorry, was my question directed to you?

marjan
2008-05-19, 10:55 AM
Cleave, if trip was successful, dancing to new target and hitting with Scimitar

First: If you think you'll get attack from cleave attempt after tripping (and not killing) your target you are mistaken.

Second: If your dervishes have intent to kill PCs, this is extremely bad idea (and that's exactly what you describe). If for some reason they want to just annoy the players with "you can't touch this" stuff that might work, but probably not very good idea (for that monks will suit you better - difficult to kill, but crapy otherwise).

zaei
2008-05-19, 04:39 PM
If you can squeeze the feats, Champion of Corellon 2 gives dex to damage.

nargbop
2008-05-19, 05:28 PM
Dervishes are vulnerable to grappling. Otherwise, two optimized dervishes at once will kill your party, quickly. They don't even have to use Thousand Cuts if they're already TWF, they just pile on the attacks and your PCs are sliced.

Gorbash
2008-05-19, 05:33 PM
And just how do you imagine a lvl 9 character to have Thousand Cuts?

jcsw
2008-05-20, 07:09 AM
First: If you think you'll get attack from cleave attempt after tripping (and not killing) your target you are mistaken.

Second: If your dervishes have intent to kill PCs, this is extremely bad idea (and that's exactly what you describe). If for some reason they want to just annoy the players with "you can't touch this" stuff that might work, but probably not very good idea (for that monks will suit you better - difficult to kill, but crapy otherwise).

-My playgroup is completely under the agreement that the "getting dropped" part of the Cleave Description includes being tripped, so even if it isn't so, we'd all agree to it.

-The dervishes goal is to chase the PCs away from their target, they won't stop them if they run.

Zaei: Where's that feat?

its_all_ogre
2008-05-20, 07:51 AM
And just how do you imagine a lvl 9 character to have Thousand Cuts?

he did not say they had it, said in fact that they do not even need it, which in no way implies that they do indeed have it.
unless you squint really really hard.

oh you did? :smalltongue:

bigbaddragon
2008-05-20, 08:34 AM
Zaei: Where's that feat?

It's not a feat but a prestige class from Races of the Wild that lets you add your dex to damage at level 2.

jcsw
2008-05-20, 08:41 AM
Hmm, it seems too hard to fit in, especially since it requires being an Elf.

bigbaddragon
2008-05-20, 09:24 AM
Plus IIRC it requires Mounted Combat which is pretty crappy if you're going for Dervish.

zaei
2008-05-20, 08:17 PM
Plus IIRC it requires Mounted Combat which is pretty crappy if you're going for Dervish.

This is true for PCs, but for NPCs, they have feats to blow because they don't have to actually pay the price of play time to get them.

jcsw
2008-05-21, 05:03 AM
...Not when the NPC in mind is already starved for feats, Dervish and High Sword, Low Axe both require lots of feats.

bigbaddragon
2008-05-21, 05:44 AM
This is true for PCs, but for NPCs, they have feats to blow because they don't have to actually pay the price of play time to get them.

I agree with you on your statement but in this case jcsw wants them to be optimized.