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View Full Version : A wizard..... in armour.....???



Jimbob
2008-05-19, 04:53 AM
Mornign all,

I was flicking through MIC and saw a armour enchantment called "Twilight" which decreases armours arcane spell faliur by 10%. So then I was flicking through the DMG and saw that Mitheral chain shirt has a 10% asf so if I had in enchanted to +1 with Twilight I could cast spells in it with out any problem. But then my counter part who likes to mess up ideas said, well what about the check penetly??? well looking again but becasue I am not proficient it would effect my attack rolls and skills, so I looked at the shirt does not have any so I could wear it with out any probelms.

What does people think about this, would you allow it??:smallconfused:

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-19, 04:56 AM
Old trick, that one. Anyway, Wizards often don't need to worry about to-hit rolls, depending on spell selection.

Quite useful, though, especially on a high-Dex Gish build.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 04:56 AM
Yes. The feycraft mithril twilight breastplate +1 is a stalwart companion of many a wizard.

Furthermore, it's not as powerful as it sounds, since most people use Mage Armour anyway, and it takes up a slot - just be sure to load it up with some nifty enhancements (when I have the money, I never make a suit of armour without soulfire, for example).

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 04:59 AM
Yes. The feycraft mithril twilight breastplate +1 is a stalwart companion of many a wizard.

Furthermore, it's not as powerful as it sounds, since most people use Mage Armour anyway, and it takes up a slot - just be sure to load it up with some nifty enhancements (when I have the money, I never make a suit of armour without soulfire, for example).

Yeah, Heavy Fortification on the armor and Soulfire on the Mithril Buckler.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:00 AM
Yeah, Heavy Fortification on the armor and Soulfire on the Mithril Buckler.

Also, +5 magic weapon'd defending armour spikes on everything - hooray!

Tengu
2008-05-19, 05:03 AM
Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) + Battle Caster feat = you can cast in Mithril Full Plate without spell failure. It's mostly for gishes though, as losing caster levels for a normal wizard is bad.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-19, 05:04 AM
Also, +5 magic weapon'd defending armour spikes on everything - hooray!

And the animated tower shield that you can use for total cover, thus making the tower shield invisible as well.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:06 AM
And the animated tower shield that you can use for total cover, thus making the tower shield invisible as well.

The shield needs +1 defending armour spikes too.

Also, recursion FTW!

Swooper
2008-05-19, 06:10 AM
I'm pretty sure you need to attack with a defending weapon for the AC bonus to work in a particular round, so defending armour-spikes may not be such a good idea. I'm too lazy to look it up though. :smalltongue:

Leon
2008-05-19, 07:35 AM
Runesmith - Dwarf wizards in heavy armour

UglyPanda
2008-05-19, 08:50 AM
I'm pretty sure you need to attack with a defending weapon for the AC bonus to work in a particular round, so defending armour-spikes may not be such a good idea. I'm too lazy to look it up though. :smalltongue:That's not true.

Defending: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.I think you're thinking of Combat Expertise.

Ecalsneerg
2008-05-19, 08:55 AM
Mornign all,

I was flicking through MIC and saw a armour enchantment called "Twilight" which decreases armours arcane spell faliur by 10%. So then I was flicking through the DMG and saw that Mitheral chain shirt has a 10% asf so if I had in enchanted to +1 with Twilight I could cast spells in it with out any problem. But then my counter part who likes to mess up ideas said, well what about the check penetly??? well looking again but becasue I am not proficient it would effect my attack rolls and skills, so I looked at the shirt does not have any so I could wear it with out any probelms.

What does people think about this, would you allow it??:smallconfused:Yes. Divine magic and psionics aren't affected by armour, why is arcane magic the exception?

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-19, 10:01 AM
+1 Throwing Returning Armour Spikes for the win!

LoneGamer
2008-05-19, 10:44 AM
And the animated tower shield that you can use for total cover, thus making the tower shield invisible as well.

Knight Phantoms don't allow you to cast arcane spells while wearing shields. I think only Duskblade can. And even then, only up to Heavy shields. A tower shield gives -2 to hit even when proficient with it, and you'd stuffer 35% arcane spell failure even if it's animated. By SRD, you still suffer all the associated penalties. Emphasis added.


Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-19, 04:10 PM
Yes. Divine magic and psionics aren't affected by armour, why is arcane magic the exception?
In general, Arcane magic is stronger than either. If you invest heavily in Still Spell, or take the spells that don't have Somatic components, you can wear armor as a pure-classed Wizard, no problem... but, in general, you'll be using weaker offensive spells (exceptions exist - most notably Disjunction).

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-19, 04:24 PM
Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) + Battle Caster feat = you can cast in Mithril Full Plate without spell failure. It's mostly for gishes though, as losing caster levels for a normal wizard is bad.

Adding on to this train of thought the following help with casting in Armor

Battle Sorcerer (light armor)
Bard (Light Armor)
Prestige Bard (1 lost caster level and light armor)
Spellsword (-10% Arcane Spell Failure)
Dread Necromancer (Light Armor)
Beguiler (Light Armor)

Flickerdart
2008-05-19, 04:33 PM
Adding on to this train of thought the following help with casting in Armor

Battle Sorcerer (light armor)
Bard (Light Armor)
Prestige Bard (1 lost caster level and light armor)
Spellsword (-10% Arcane Spell Failure)
Dread Necromancer (Light Armor)
Beguiler (Light Armor)
Don't forget War what'shisface from Complete Arcane.

BRC
2008-05-19, 04:34 PM
+1 Throwing Returning Armour Spikes for the win!

How does THAT work...

UglyPanda
2008-05-19, 04:48 PM
How does THAT work...

I think it would be like some sort of metal porcupine or Cactuar (Final Fantasy). I'm aware they can't actually shoot their quills, but I'm making an analogy. It's not as cool as Rayman Kensai or the Headless Horseman Kensai, but think of the possibilities if you combine them.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-19, 07:26 PM
Also, +5 magic weapon'd defending armour spikes on everything - hooray!

That's... huh. I need to go revise my "Highest possible armor class" build now. You can dual-wield bucklers, right? Right. *wanders off*

Keld Denar
2008-05-19, 11:14 PM
I think it would be like some sort of metal porcupine or Cactuar (Final Fantasy). I'm aware they can't actually shoot their quills, but I'm making an analogy. It's not as cool as Rayman Kensai or the Headless Horseman Kensai, but think of the possibilities if you combine them.

WOooo hoooo!!!! +1 Flaming Throwing Returning Head 4tw!!!!

Tengu
2008-05-19, 11:54 PM
Adding on to this train of thought the following help with casting in Armor

Battle Sorcerer (light armor)
Bard (Light Armor)
Prestige Bard (1 lost caster level and light armor)
Spellsword (-10% Arcane Spell Failure)
Dread Necromancer (Light Armor)
Beguiler (Light Armor)

Remember that a class' armored casting relates only to its spellcasting - a Wizard X/Bard 1 still has a chance to fail Wizard spells when casting in light armor.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-20, 09:48 AM
That's... huh. I need to go revise my "Highest possible armor class" build now. You can dual-wield bucklers, right? Right. *wanders off*

I know that was probably said tongue in cheek (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=23), but just in case: you can wield all the bucklers you want, but each of them gives a non-stacking +1 shield AC bonus. So you only benefit from the first buckler.

Also, be aware with defending weapons that you can only gain that defending AC bonus in a round where you have attacked with the weapon in question. So a wizard can't cast a spell with a standard action (or other actions that don't involve using the armor spikes) and gain the AC benefit from armor spikes that went unused that round. :smallwink:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 11:25 AM
Also, be aware with defending weapons that you can only gain that defending AC bonus in a round where you have attacked with the weapon in question. So a wizard can't cast a spell with a standard action (or other actions that don't involve using the armor spikes) and gain the AC benefit from armor spikes that went unused that round. :smallwink:

:smallconfused:

Errr ...


Defending
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others.

Yakk
2008-05-20, 01:07 PM
*sigh*

Animated Shield with +5 Shield Spikes, Defending
Shield with +5 Shield Spikes, Defending
Left Guantlet: +5 Defending
Right Guantlet: +5 Defending
Club: +5 Defending
Armor Spikes: +5 Defending
Total: +30 Defending AC

Yes, you can use Defending for cheese.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 01:13 PM
Yes, but they start off as +1 defending, and then you chain GMW on them. Much cheaper that way.

Yakk
2008-05-20, 01:27 PM
No, you do that.

I avoid using cheese. I'm well aware that D&D can be broken quite easily. I personally prefer the route of "avoid breaking the game with cheese" rather than "force the DM to sigh, and add +30 to all monsters to-hit rolls when attacking your specific race/class for an arbitrary reason".

FMArthur
2008-05-20, 02:25 PM
That's... huh. I need to go revise my "Highest possible armor class" build now. You can dual-wield bucklers, right? Right. *wanders off*

You can't put shield spikes on Bucklers (PHB p.125).

ericgrau
2008-05-20, 02:59 PM
How does THAT work...

Logic has no place in this thread. Out! Out I say!

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-20, 06:51 PM
Actually, it's even cheaper than that...

+1 spikes of defending on a Mithral Small Shield (no ASF)
Cast Greater Magic Weapon: now it's a +5.

Netting you a +4 untyped and stackable bonus to AC, which arguabally works even on flat-footed touch-attacks.

Now to really bring in the cheeze:

Chain Spell Greater Magic Weapon on a number of 'weapons' of +1 defending. Rake in the insane AC bonuses.

For the ultimate in cheeze:

1 quiver of +1 Arrows of Defending (nothing says you can't enchant ammo with the Defending quality)

+

1 GMW to increase 50 projectiles up to +5...

=

+200 to AC.

Have a nice day.

Efficent Quiver + (50 * 1/2 caster level) + Chain GMW = an even nicer day.

As far as a wizard in armor, +1 Mithral Chain Shirt has always been Mage Armor All Day. It doesn't work on a number of things that a regular Mage Armor does (like Incorporeal attacks), but it never goes away and doesn't take up a spell slot.

Better way is to go Abjurant Champion for five levels, though. +5 bonus to both Mage Armor and Shield, then have all your 1st level slot spells (other than one for Mage Armor) be Shield. You can drop one as a swift action for free, so do this whenever you are worried about melee attacks. Which, come to think of it, is probably never. A wizard has better things to do than AC, like Mirror Image and Quickened Dimension Door.

Jack Mann
2008-05-21, 12:55 AM
No, you do that.

I avoid using cheese. I'm well aware that D&D can be broken quite easily. I personally prefer the route of "avoid breaking the game with cheese" rather than "force the DM to sigh, and add +30 to all monsters to-hit rolls when attacking your specific race/class for an arbitrary reason".

Of course no one here's going to actually try that. But if you're looking at a gamebreaking combo, it's fun to see how far you can push the ticket, either by increasing the breakage or decreasing the resources necessary for the trick.

Waspinator
2008-05-21, 01:05 AM
Another way to be a "wizard" in armor would be to be a psion and take wizard-y powers, wear your armor, carry around a book with a bunch of gibberish in it, and really mess with the minds of anyone who tries to counter your class abilties.

Gralamin
2008-05-21, 01:09 AM
Actually, it's even cheaper than that...

+1 spikes of defending on a Mithral Small Shield (no ASF)
Cast Greater Magic Weapon: now it's a +5.

Netting you a +4 untyped and stackable bonus to AC, which arguabally works even on flat-footed touch-attacks.

Now to really bring in the cheeze:

Chain Spell Greater Magic Weapon on a number of 'weapons' of +1 defending. Rake in the insane AC bonuses.

For the ultimate in cheeze:

1 quiver of +1 Arrows of Defending (nothing says you can't enchant ammo with the Defending quality)

+

1 GMW to increase 50 projectiles up to +5...

=

+200 to AC.

Have a nice day.

Efficent Quiver + (50 * 1/2 caster level) + Chain GMW = an even nicer day.



Doesn't work by RAW. The Text of Defending implies it only affects swords.

A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.
(Bold mine)

Avilan the Grey
2008-05-21, 01:12 AM
Another way to be a "wizard" in armor would be to be a psion and take wizard-y powers, wear your armor, carry around a book with a bunch of gibberish in it, and really mess with the minds of anyone who tries to counter your class abilties.

Oh come on now you are just being Evil... or Smart. Using valid survival tactics in a D&D game!? :smalltongue:

But then just the basic idea of having your wizard carry a heavy crossbow and some good bolts increases his survivability (and useability too) a lot. Instead of using that last magic missile spells just fall back and pump a bolt or two in the badguys.
I have never understood why all NPC wizards drag around that quarterstaff...

leperkhaun
2008-05-21, 05:13 AM
I dont think multiple defending weapons works, as although they are from different items, they are the same source.... the defending property.

its like arguing that having bull strength cast by two different wizards should stack.

Waspinator
2008-05-21, 10:07 AM
Oh come on now you are just being Evil... or Smart. Using valid survival tactics in a D&D game!? :smalltongue:

But then just the basic idea of having your wizard carry a heavy crossbow and some good bolts increases his survivability (and useability too) a lot. Instead of using that last magic missile spells just fall back and pump a bolt or two in the badguys.
I have never understood why all NPC wizards drag around that quarterstaff...
Agreed. If you're going to use a weapon as a wizard, you should try to be doing it at range. Your dexterity is probably better than your strength (since it also helps AC and your touch attack spells), so the crossbow will probably be more accurate than the staff. Plus, range means you don't have as much of a chance of getting a sword-to-the-brain, a serious risk for many young wizards.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-21, 08:22 PM
Doesn't work by RAW. The Text of Defending implies it only affects swords.

(Bold mine)

And yet, for some reason, it doesn't mention in the list to randomly generate magic items that if you roll Defending for anything other than a sword that you have to re-roll. Like it does for Keen and Bludgeoning weapons. And while it implies, it does not define. Therefore, while a clever bit of maneuvering, this theory doesn't hold water.

Also, the Multiple Defending weapons works, while multiple Bull's Strength does not, because of stacking rules. Bull's Strength is an Enhancement bonus, which means it also doesn't stack with a Girdle of Giant Strength. A Defending property is an untyped, and it specifically states in the description that it does, in fact, stack with everything else.

John Campbell
2008-05-21, 10:35 PM
Runesmith - Dwarf wizards in heavy armour

Yep. *<- points at avatar* Who'd ever suspect that the greataxe-wielding dwarf in the adamantine full plate was the wizard?

I've been kicking around the idea of a dwarf Cleric 3/Wizard 2/Runesmith 1/Mystic Theurge just for the "I can cast anything in the book, in heavy armor, with no spell failure" factor, but it's too soon after my last Runesmith.

(No, don't tell me that Mystic Theurges suck. I've heard it. I don't care.)

Avilan the Grey
2008-05-22, 01:11 AM
Agreed. If you're going to use a weapon as a wizard, you should try to be doing it at range. Your dexterity is probably better than your strength (since it also helps AC and your touch attack spells), so the crossbow will probably be more accurate than the staff. Plus, range means you don't have as much of a chance of getting a sword-to-the-brain, a serious risk for many young wizards.

Exactly. Knife-to-the-belly and Head-in-mouth-disease is also very common. After all, if your wizard has to start fighting melee, then your group has probably all started working on their new characters already... :xykon:

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-22, 03:06 AM
Remember that a class' armored casting relates only to its spellcasting - a Wizard X/Bard 1 still has a chance to fail Wizard spells when casting in light armor.

Pardon me, I did mean to put that in there somewhere, base classes that can cast in armor only work for those spells. The big ones that I tend to sway toward in character creation: Knight's Phantom and the Prestige Bard... otherwise playing with mithril twilight fey craft and a level of spellsword.

Leon
2008-05-22, 09:23 AM
Yep. *<- points at avatar* Who'd ever suspect that the greataxe-wielding dwarf in the adamantine full plate was the wizard?

I've been kicking around the idea of a dwarf Cleric 3/Wizard 2/Runesmith 1/Mystic Theurge just for the "I can cast anything in the book, in heavy armor, with no spell failure" factor, but it's too soon after my last Runesmith.

(No, don't tell me that Mystic Theurges suck. I've heard it. I don't care.)

Sounds good, i've though of playing one but suffer from the "Too many idea's not enough games" problem

Nothing wrong with MTs, im not a great fan of that particular PrC but quite like the Arcane hiropahant which is basicaly the same with a few bells and whistles

Leon
2008-05-23, 03:45 AM
Although, now that Ive thought about it I'd like to try a Archivist/Wizard Mystic Theurge

Good synergy on the casting Stat and a formidable knowledge base

Funkyodor
2008-05-23, 07:32 AM
In reference to Defending weapon enhancment. Doesn't it state in that you get to change the enhancment as a free action before using the weapon? If you don't use the weapon, then wouldn't you not get the bonus? And that you have to keep using it every round to keep the bonus? So it's not something you can just set on "Maximum Shields" and forget about.

Yakk
2008-05-23, 04:59 PM
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

1> By RAW, defending weapons let you move enhancement bonuses of swords to AC.

2> By RAW, the bonus is a movement of an enhancement bonus, and it stacks with all others. (Ie, the bonus isn't an unnamed bonus -- it is an enhancement bonus a weapon, applied to AC. On the other hand, it stacks with all other bonuses).

3> By RAW, this can be done as a free action at the start of your turn before using the weapon, and it stops working at the next turn.

So, by RAW, Defending non-swords are pretty useless.

By RAW, it appears that two Defending weapons don't have their bonus' stack, because while the bonuses stack with all other bonuses, they still are enhancement bonuses. It says nothing about stacking with the same kind of bonus from the same source -- and, under the global rules, named bonuses with the same name don't stack with each other.

By RAW, you can only do it "before using the weapon" at the start of your turn. If you don't use the weapon, you cannot do it. I am not aware of any RAW 'use of weapon' that does not involve attacking? I suppose a weapon that had another use (say, it also had charges) could also be used. :)

...

In short, by RAW, it doesn't work. You can apply common sense -- such as "it should work on non-swords, the sword mention was a gaffe". But by common sense, no you cannot get +24 AC from Defending upteen items (or +100 from a quiver of arrows).

(And what is worse, this particular kind of rules-lawyering twinking is very damaging: the DM ends up having to boost creature attack accuracy to hit you (which is easy to do, as a DM) to a degree that the rest of your party has to either follow suit, or give up entirely on AC.)