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The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 08:37 AM
Terminator

Terminator 1.0: Monk/Wizard/Shadowcaster/Justicar

I've read through the first half or so of the Giamonk Joker guide. While I think there are some problems with how the build is now, I do like the base strategy, or at least what I think the base strategy is:

Build a monk who uses his Ex abilities, grapple, and skill checks to beat casters, and uses magic to augment his abilities against non-casters (and to get AMF).
While it might be possible to do this core only (psionics included), I'm not interested in trying that.

Warforged Monk 10 / Wizard 1 / Shadowcaster 1 / Justicar 8


Uses of Monk:
The worthwhile abilities of monks as I see them are:
Evasion, Improved Evasion
Fast movement
Bonus Feats without meeting Prerequisites
Good Saves
Hide, Move Silently, Jump, Listen, Spot as class skills

Diamond Body is nice, but too far in. Purity of Body doesn't work against magical and supernatural diseases.

Why no UMD

While a monk with UMD is able to buff himself, deliver touch attacks, and create anti-magic fields, in the end it seems like an inefficient way to go about it. UMD isn't a class skill, and charisma would otherwise make a great dump stat.

So drop it completely. You don't need UMD to use wands of spells on your class list, neither do you need UPD for powers on your class list. I was originally going to go with Wizard / Psychic Warrior, however I changed it to a Wizard Dip and a Shadowcaster Dip.

Why Warforged?

Warforged get as racial abilities many of the higher level monk abilities. Warforged are immune to all disease. They are immune to all poison. Additionally: Sleep Effects, Paralysis, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, sickening effects and energy drain. No Eating, Sleeping, or Breathing. Monk's AC bonus adds to Armor and stacks with Composite plating. Warforged have access to Battlefists and Wandsheaths.

Why Justicar?

Nonlethal Strike Bonus Damage, Strength Damage, Improved Hog-Tie (Ex, disabling as a grappling option)
Full Base Attack

Ability Scores
Start+Racial:
Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 6
Cha: 6

From Levels put +3 in Int, +1 in Str

Feats:
1st: Track
3rd: Skill Focus Gather Information
6th: Run
9th: Skill Focus: Use Rope
9th, 12, 15, 18th feats open

Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Deflect Arrows
Improved Disarm

Wizard: Scribe Scroll
Familiar: Bat?

Justiciar: Nonlethal Strike +3d6, Crippling Strike, EXWP Manacles, Street Savvy +4, Hog Tie, Improved Hog-Tie

+16 BAB +11 Fort, +9 Ref, +17 Will, 8d10+1d4+1d6+10d8

Opposed Use Rope Check: 23 + 3 + 10 (before MW or Magic Bonuses or Gear)



Terminator 1.5 Monk 6 / Psionic Fist 5/ Psion 1/ Justicar 8

The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 08:40 AM
Spells: (Reserved for Now)
Version 1.0

Useful Ranged:
Afraid of the Dark (Wisdom Damage Will Half SR)
Flesh Fails Greater

Buff:
Bolster (+75 temp hp for 10min/level)
Polymorph and all the usual cheese

Touch:
Shivering Touch
In Wand Sheath: Flesh Fails Touch Attack, SR applies, 4 str or 4 dex or 2 con damage


Caster Shutdown:
Flood of Shadow (10 M / Level 30 foot radius), All non Shadowmagic, non shadow subschool spells require a spellcraft check of DC 15 + Spell level, or spell is lost without effect.
Anti-Magic Field
Dispel Magic

The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 08:42 AM
Tactics: (Reserved for now)

Nebo_
2008-05-19, 08:42 AM
Sorry, D&D doesn't actually work that way.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-19, 08:55 AM
Warforged Monk 10 / Wizard 1 / Shadowcaster 1 / Justicar 8
This combination is going to be hard to arrive at.
Your multiclass character takes a -20% penalty to XP for each class that is not within one level of his higher-level class. Fighter, not Monk, is the favored class for warforged.

Solo
2008-05-19, 09:29 AM
Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Blackguard

x3 Cha. bonus to saves, and Mettle. Walk up to a caster and hug him.

Flickerdart
2008-05-19, 09:45 AM
I'm not sure if this applies, but Neverwinter Nights 2 Wiki has an interesting build: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Kaze_no_Kama

It takes a bunch of Monk levels for the Flurry and uses Dual-Wielding Kamas to get an obscene amount of attacks per turn. Sure, MotB's enchantment system is a bit unrealistic...but couldn't this build be adapted into regular D&D?

Solo
2008-05-19, 09:48 AM
I'm not sure if this applies, but Neverwinter Nights 2 Wiki has an interesting build: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Kaze_no_Kama

It takes a bunch of Monk levels for the Flurry and uses Dual-Wielding Kamas to get an obscene amount of attacks per turn. Sure, MotB's enchantment system is a bit unrealistic...but couldn't this build be adapted into regular D&D?

Shall I crush your dreams now or later? :smallamused:


Look, NwN is inspired by DnD, but the rules aren't 100% faithful to DnD rules. I don't think you could adapt a complicated NwN2 build over to 3.5 DnD with a great deal of success.

The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 09:55 AM
Sorry, D&D doesn't actually work that way.

Good catch there.
I did not notice until now that wands only went up to 4th level spells. Fortunately Dorje still go up to 9th level. I will make sure to keep that in mind as I revise the build.

As far as multi-classing, I do not play with those rules myself however I will keep it in mind for this build. If I switch over to psion I think I remember a feat from one of the Eberron books... secrets of Sarlona I think that should remove multiclassing penalties from Monk and Psion. I think it also changes it to Int bonus to AC.

The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 10:01 AM
x3 Cha. bonus to saves, and Mettle. Walk up to a caster and hug him.

I have made those before. Right now I am actually trying to see if something even remotely resembling the Giamonk can work. As far as other effective monk builds, I once did a monk and whatever the psionic monk prestige class is build that focused on a full attack flurry of two handed quarterstaff strikes with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper and so on. BAB was low, but it had psionics to make up for it.

Flickerdart
2008-05-19, 10:02 AM
Shall I crush your dreams now or later? :smallamused:


Look, NwN is inspired by DnD, but the rules aren't 100% faithful to DnD rules. I don't think you could adapt a complicated NwN2 build over to 3.5 DnD with a great deal of success.
That's why there was a question mark at the end of the post. And the differences should be negligible enough: Monks still get their Flurries at the proper levels and everything else is just picking up bonus feats.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-19, 10:05 AM
Warforged Monk 10 / Wizard 1 / Shadowcaster 1 / Justicar 8

So, the strategy to counter casters is to play a wizard. What else is new?

As usual, the easiest way to improve this build is by replacing all the monk levels by rogue or barbarian.



Polymorph and all the usual cheese
Shivering Touch

Yeah, that doesn't score you a lot on the credibility meter.

The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 10:28 AM
Kurald I do not think monks are effective against casters. I usually prefer to throw a caster against another caster. Giacomo is the one who thinks monks are caster killers. He proposed a build type that he thinks could do it. What I am trying to do here is build a character of that type that might actually have a chance.

As far as shivering touch and polymorph both of them fit in pretty well (although I will have to do some adjustment to include polymorph). Those two spells however are mainly to increase the versatility of the build, they are not central to taking down casters but help in taking anything else.

The general idea that I am going with right now is to be able to self-cast anti-magic field. Most of the powerful abilities of the build are Ex and can function in an anti-magic field. While Anti-magic field is up, move to the caster, grapple, on second round they are helpless from Improved Hog Tie.

Shivering touch and polymorph and what not is so the character is also effective against other characters and dragons and such things.

Gorbash
2008-05-19, 10:47 AM
Dear god, not another one...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 10:51 AM
Kurald I do not think monks are effective against casters. I usually prefer to throw a caster against another caster. Giacomo is the one who thinks monks are caster killers. He proposed a build type that he thinks could do it. What I am trying to do here is build a character of that type that might actually have a chance.

As far as shivering touch and polymorph both of them fit in pretty well (although I will have to do some adjustment to include polymorph). Those two spells however are mainly to increase the versatility of the build, they are not central to taking down casters but help in taking anything else.

The general idea that I am going with right now is to be able to self-cast anti-magic field. Most of the powerful abilities of the build are Ex and can function in an anti-magic field. While Anti-magic field is up, move to the caster, grapple, on second round they are helpless from Improved Hog Tie.

Shivering touch and polymorph and what not is so the character is also effective against other characters and dragons and such things.

Put simply, if you have to use such cheese to win, you suck. HARD. So hard you'd be a bona fide perfect whore. You erode your point by using it. Instead, show us how to do something WELL with monk and ONE PrC at most, and we'll believe you.

The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 01:15 PM
Put simply, if you have to use such cheese to win, you suck. HARD. So hard you'd be a bona fide perfect whore. You erode your point by using it. Instead, show us how to do something WELL with monk and ONE PrC at most, and we'll believe you.

Wow.
Calm down already.
All I did was suggest that I could make a somewhat effective build using a mostly ineffective class.

And yeah, the whole monks whores thing is funny at first, but not when it starts getting directed at people. Also, I liked the joke better when it was being made about paladins.

Keld Denar
2008-05-19, 02:27 PM
Best monk build I've ever seen for taking on a wizard would probably be the Sacreligeous Fist build. Its like a Monk4/UrPriest2/SacredFist9/Contemplative1/OrdainedChamp4 or something like that. Persist Righteous Might, cast a quickened Divine Power (via OC). And the only reason that is strong is because its an UrFrickinPriest.

Oh, and use the spell Battle Magic Perception from Hero's of Battle along with a pair of Greater Rings of Counterspelling(DMGII) loaded with CL cheezed Greater Dispel Magics along with a Wand of Anticipate Teleport. That stops the first 3 attempts to teleport out of a grapple, as well as any short-ranged teleport abilities like Greater Blinking and Abrupt Jaunt (PHBII).

Neon Knight
2008-05-19, 02:34 PM
I believe, Mr. Duke, that they have something of a point. Depending upon cheese to counter "everything else" is something of a cop out, and a critical weakness of the build.

Not only is cheese widely reviled, but in most cases it is banned; even in theoretical RAW optimizations. This is because cheese will just be met by cheese; If you Candle of Invocation/Gate spam/whatever iteration of the summon trick is going about the Fighter, then he can do the same right back to you. Polymorph into some nasty to stomp that Barbarian? He can do the same right back to you; after all, you got Polymorph, so why can't he acquire it?

The focus is no longer on the class and its unique abilities, what it brings to the table, but the capability to cultivate cheese, which nearly anyone can do. It is unproductive and not at all representative of what the game entails. Many builds and optimizations share this trait, but by and large their non-representative nature comes from the degree to which the take things. The most optimal of uberchargers has probably never seen actual play beyond his theoretical work, but lesser versions of him do show up in games one shotting CR equal opponents. I will admit I have not seen every theoretical exercise out there, but I believe I have seen enough to state that with some confidence. There are some rules loophole builds, but these are often regarded as cheese.

I hope that this cheese will go unaccompanied by any wine. I've had quite enough to drink from the 4e discussions.

Also, I hope that last bit wasn't too snarky.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-19, 03:02 PM
Hi, The Gilded Duke,

thanks for picking up some of my ideas - so the Joker/Giamonk idea is starting to reach people (although I sense disbelievers also around here....begone heretics! :smallsmile:)

A warforged, similar to polymorphing tactics is excellent for a monk since this is a class that makes best use of the advantages, mainly in terms of:
- size (stacking damage)
- AC (natural AC boost) and
- move (monk's enhancement comes ontop of all).

As for the combinations - yes, a single level of wizard or sorcerer replaces the need for raising UMD to get wands (although raising UMD wands allows you to use eventually all divine scrolls 1-9, and ALL lvl 1-4 spells). You may wish to consider a level of cleric, since WIS synergises with monk and cleric; plus you could get a strength deity for getting enlarge (and a small STR 1/day boost). Personally, I also liked some of the druid spells for monk purposes.

The build that lussmanj provided is a marvelous showcase of what outside core can be done with monks. There is another thread just started wondering, if somehow monks outside core got a bit left behind. Well, for certain they received no special devoted splatbook attention.

Anyhow, need to catch up on comments in two threads.

- Giacomo

Aquillion
2008-05-19, 03:08 PM
Wow.
Calm down already.
All I did was suggest that I could make a somewhat effective build using a mostly ineffective class.The problem is that 'use UMD cross-class to cast the most broken spells you can get your hands on' is a strategy that works just as well for a commoner, and better for an expert. If you want to make an effective build for an ineffective class, you actually have to use that class, not say "I invoke Pazuzu, UMD for Shapechange and turn into Pun-Pun." (which is a strategy that actually works, even for an Expert, if you can manage to UMD Shapechange. Heck, with WBL at higher levels you don't even need Pazuzu, just a scroll of Shapechange, a loyal / summoned serpent, and the UMD to use the items involved. You don't even have to be a kobold; shapechanging into one long enough to grant yourself Shapechange at-will is sufficient.)

What does Monk give your build that most other classes couldn't offer? Why choose Monk over something else? If you really want to convince people, single out the nearest class you can and outshine them (beating unarmed swordsage would be a particularly noteworthy achievement since most people consider it an almost strictly-superior 'replacement Monk', although Barbarian and Rogue are also good.) In that regard the massive thread before had the right idea -- it's just that it's stupid to compare monk to wizard, because even if monk could win it wouldn't tell you anything, since the two are so different. Showing how Monk can outshine the 'rival' classes that offer similar abilities at their own game -- keeping in mind that they'll use the same amount of cheese you do -- is much more impressive.

If you want to argue that monks are a generalist (this is touchy -- Bards are generalists, too, with a lot more than you have in most of the important areas, spellcasting and skills), show how they can roughly equal or nearly-equal multiple different classes -- fight nearly as well as a Barbarian, use skills nearly as well as a rogue, cast... well, they can't cast better than anyone, so show that they can both fight and use skills better than a Bard to make up for it. And definitely show that they can fight completely better than a Rogue -- this is very, very important, since rogues are a lot better at skills than you, and only have fighting as a secondary thing. If the rogue is ever outdamaging you in reasonable situations (and they often will be), you're in trouble.

Actually, beating Ranger might be a better idea. They have casting and you don't, they have more BAB, they have more skill points, and they've got better class features overall... but pretty much they cover the ground a generalist Monk should be aiming for (fighting + some lesser skills), even if they're probably ranged and you're not.

The Gilded Duke
2008-05-19, 05:11 PM
Actually cutting out most of whats been identified as cheese to focus on the main, and what I'd consider to be cheesier part of the build: rendering someone helpless on a charge. Probably going to finish the new build tomorrow, the single level of psion is at this point really just there to give access to null psionics field.

If this one was being used in a group environment you could just drop that bit entirely for another level of monk or psionic fist.

The main thing I'm finding useful at the moment from Monk is the combination of movement speed boost, skills, and working into psionic fist.

The one thing though I've been trying to say: I am not trying to make an argument about the monk class. I'm trying to see if a caster shutdown build can be built based around grapple. At the same time I'm trying to see if monk can be a viable part of that build. At the moment Justicar and Psionic Fist are doing most of the work.

A so far unspoken goal I've been working on with this build is making a character capable of beating a Planar Shepard anti-magic druid. (Planar Shepard attuned to a null magic plane and not effected by its negative traits)

Usually I prefer to work with bards for my generalists. There is a great deal of unexplored potential in bardic metamagic, also I think they hold the key to some of the scariest ubercharger builds. C.Warrior Samurai/ Ronin / Bard / Warchanters should strike fear in the hearts of many.

Lastly, Giacomo you should really check out psionics for monk builds. Psionic fist remains a great way to get access to pounce and other psy warrior powers, and Dorjes unlike wands go all the way up to level 9, and in many ways are more flexible. Although if you are dropping UMD, you still need to have a high enough ability score to cast spells. Also, check out Secrets of Sarlonna for some good psionics and monk mixing feats.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-19, 07:32 PM
As far as multi-classing, I do not play with those rules myself however I will keep it in mind for this build.
Any particular reason why you don't follow the core rules for multiclassing?

Neon Knight
2008-05-19, 07:35 PM
Any particular reason why you don't follow the core rules for multiclassing?

To be fair, I personally have never seen multi classing XP penalties enforced.

Nebo_
2008-05-19, 07:54 PM
Incidentally, how do you plan on making the caster level checks for the scrolls? You only have one wizard level, so you'll be hard pressed to make CL checks with only a +1 bonus to your check.

Jack Mann
2008-05-19, 08:19 PM
Any particular reason why you don't follow the core rules for multiclassing?

Probably because they add nothing to the fun of the game. Seriously, not many people follow those rules for just that reason. It doesn't make the game better, and only makes things more complicated, and punishes people for playing the characters they want.

Curmudgeon
2008-05-19, 08:46 PM
Probably because they add nothing to the fun of the game. Seriously, not many people follow those rules for just that reason. It doesn't make the game better, and only makes things more complicated, and punishes people for playing the characters they want.
Well, gee then -- why not just jump right into prestige classes without any base classes? That way people can really play the characters they want. After all, satisfying those prerequisites just makes things more complicated, and punishes people for following the rules.

Frosty
2008-05-19, 09:47 PM
Well, gee then -- why not just jump right into prestige classes without any base classes? That way people can really play the characters they want. After all, satisfying those prerequisites just makes things more complicated, and punishes people for following the rules.

It's called houserules, and this is a fairly common one at that. People can play how they want. WoTC agrees. The rules are more like...guidelines, and as long as everybody at the gaming tables agrees on the rule or lack there-of, it's all good.

Aquillion
2008-05-19, 10:21 PM
Well, gee then -- why not just jump right into prestige classes without any base classes? That way people can really play the characters they want. After all, satisfying those prerequisites just makes things more complicated, and punishes people for following the rules.Oh, come on now. There's a difference between "taking a few feats, skills, and so forth to balance a PRC" and "paying 20% of your XP because you wanted to play a Barbarian / Sorcerer"

Part of the reason why those rules are so annoying is that multiclassing is generally weak. On top of that, multiclassing is usually only a viable option for melee and skill-focused classes, who can sorta use the boost.

(Remember, PRCs -- some of which are powerful -- have no XP penalty. Only multiclassing, the already-weaker option, is penalized.)

Sure, it discourages people from taking 'dips' in classes... but what's so good about that? Again, dips are things people use to add abilities to their melee classes, most of which weren't that strong in the first place; and they're adding lots of low-level abilities, which is fun for customization but not really that powerful. Casters (the 'optimized' ones, at least) never multiclass, because it costs them caster levels. They just go into PRCs.

And that leads to the worst part about the multiclassing rules -- it unduely penalizes unoptimized characters. If I know the specific PRC from splatbook #367 that embodies a Barbarian/Rogue perfectly, I can probably enter it without taking any XP penalties at all. If I don't know that PRC, and go barbarian/rogue the 'stupid' way -- which is probably already weaker -- I'll likely get penalized even more by the multiclassing rules.

That's stupid. And there's another reason why the rules suck, too: It means you're going to constantly have a PC behind the others. You'll have to regularly calculate the additional XP they get for being lower level, then the penalty they get for their multiclassing. It's a huge bookkeeping headache that doesn't really add anything to the game -- in terms of balance, it's actually unbalanced, since the people it hits the hardest (poorly-optimized melee characters) really don't need the hit.

Deepblue706
2008-05-19, 10:48 PM
Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Blackguard

x3 Cha. bonus to saves, and Mettle. Walk up to a caster and hug him.

I once did all of that with the Occult Slayer PrC, too.

Rather fun.

Oh! And don't forget to throw on Force of Will, for good measure (CHA instead of WIS to Will saves).

marjan
2008-05-19, 10:55 PM
...Force of Will, for good measure (CHA instead of WIS to Will saves).

Do you mean Force of Personality?

Deepblue706
2008-05-19, 11:13 PM
Do you mean Force of Personality?

I mean your face.

Er, rather, yes. You are correct. Force of Will is the Marshal's ability - I've been thinkin' 'bout thems lately.

marjan
2008-05-19, 11:21 PM
I mean your face.

Er, rather, yes. You are correct. Force of Will is the Marshal's ability - I've been thinkin' 'bout thems lately.

To be honest, I totally forgot about marshal. Now that you mentioned it, it might be better than a feat (if you can squeeze level of marshal without ruining the build). You'd get that bonus against everything (not just mind-affecting). And, is there a better way of annoying your opponent than making multiple people more resistant to their attacks.:smallamused: