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View Full Version : Level Adjustment 4E/3E, discuss



EvilElitest
2008-05-19, 04:08 PM
Now for those who don't know, in 4E level adjustment has changed. 4E's designers had a problem wiht a level 20 dwarf fighter being exactly the same as a level 1 dwarf fighter in terms of race, and so your race is almost like a class now with you gaining race powers as you go

now this has a problem, as in it doesn't make much sense. how is somebody being a very good fighter somehow "more dwarven" How is somebody's fighting ability effect their race? I've never liked the racial paragons and this is even more silly

that being said, it is far more effective than LA in 3E, because we all know how that worked out, and 3E did eventually resort to racial levels. So while i find racial levels extremely silly and rather shallow, i admit they are far better handled than LA. LA is another thing that is great in theory in 3E, but unlike other elements that are great in theory, i don't think LA can actually work, and racial levels are silly but not absurd.

So is there any other alternative? Do you think LA could possible work, or is racial levels the only way to go
from
EE

Indon
2008-05-19, 04:20 PM
I love the racial sub-progression featured in 4'th edition.

If you have a problem with specific races becoming too "racial" in nature, it seems to me there's a pretty simple answer: Replace racial bonuses with additional class bonuses of the player's choice.

Theoretical example: Say Dwarves gain a racial power at level 15. Instead, replace it with, "Gain one additional class power that you meet the prerequisites for." Yes, you reduce the uniqueness of the racial power, but you offer more choice in exchange. Or offer generic bonus feats, perhaps.

Or, heck, make it optional for any race. This way, a character could take their racial progression, or shun their racial heritage and focus on their class, gaining appropriate benefits. And you only need to make one, generic non-racial progression for anybody who picks that option.

Mauril Everleaf
2008-05-19, 04:25 PM
It's not that 20 years of being a fighter make you a better dwarf (since their dwarven abilities increase regardless of class selection), it's that 20 years of being a dwarf make you a better dwarf. Racial levels need to be tied to class experience simply because there is not a reliable in-game mechanic for delineating time. Since 4e has made each level require about the same amount of level appropriate encounters to reach the next level (at least from what I can tell), it is a relatively even measure of time.

Why this measure of time works for dwarves the same as it does for humans or elves in the same party.... you've got me.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-19, 04:26 PM
My thought is that there should be some form of trade off. Something that is gained as levels can be traded in to become a 'better' version of your race. I dabbled with the idea of Racial Feats that are more akin to mini templates.

Flickerdart
2008-05-19, 04:30 PM
What I'm interested in seeing is how they've balanced the +1 LA Tiefling against the base races. If everyone gets a slew of racial abilities that scale with level, having Darkness as a SLA and a few stat bonuses isn't all that great anymore. Why, we could even have Mind Flayers becoming playable (and I mean properly, +15 ECL doesn't count as playing) because Mind Blast would balance against other racial abilities gained at a certain level.

In effect, this is similar to the Raptorans gaining their flying later than character creation.

And really, wouldn't the game be that much better if instead of punishing players who take strong races, D&D would make all races on the same level.

tyckspoon
2008-05-19, 04:35 PM
My thought is that there should be some form of trade off. Something that is gained as levels can be traded in to become a 'better' version of your race. I dabbled with the idea of Racial Feats that are more akin to mini templates.

That's roughly how they're going about it, as best as I can remember. We haven't seen any higher-level racial powers, but we have seen some race-specific feats. So far it looks like you get a racial power or other benefit from selecting your race, and then if you want to become 'more dwarfy' or 'more elvish' you select racial feats instead of picking from the general list.

TSGames
2008-05-19, 04:35 PM
now this has a problem, as in it doesn't make much sense. how is somebody being a very good fighter somehow "more dwarven" How is somebody's fighting ability effect their race? I've never liked the racial paragons and this is even more silly

<snip>

from
EE
I never really viewed it that way... I always figured that, like in RL, the more you do something, especially fighting, the more you learn about your own natural abilities and the way the system works(in the case of fighting, the system would be combat and your own body). I can conceivably see an argument being made that classes represent the increased fighting skill, and the racial stuff represents you knowing your body better, your body getting stronger, and/or just unlocking the potential of your body(which is a very anime concept, but WTH?).

I'm not going to defend it because, at this point, it's apparent that the 4E design team with through thousands of dollars of "inspiration" when they tried to link the mechanics to the fluff. Despite that, I never really considered it "becoming more dwarven" or anything like that... maybe I'm already in the habit of ignoring WotC's poorly done fluff.

Thinker
2008-05-19, 04:41 PM
I agree whole-heartedly with Indon on this issue. Racial growth is a good thing. You say it doesn't make sense, but I think it makes enough sense to work with. I'm 22 years old and I can confidently say I am better at being a human now than I was when I was 2: I am a functioning member of society, I'm better at doing all the things we humans do. As I get older I will become more skilled in my profession, I will amass more knowledge of customs and society, and I will potentially be better at "being human" than I am now. Thankfully I'm only an NPC so I don't have to worry about class levels.

ShadowSiege
2008-05-19, 04:49 PM
Judging from the Racial Benefits excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080502a), there aren't going to be substitution levels, but rather Racial Feats that you can take at each tier of play to make your character more human, dwarvish, orky (er, orcy because our orcs are different (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurOrcsAreDifferent)), elven, tieflish(?). This system would let you either develop your character with various non-racial feats at the cost of honing your racial abilities to perfection.

It would be possible, using this system (since it definitely has improvements upon the dragon breath ability of the Dragonborn), to create a mind flayer character where they gradually increase the power of their mind blast to full power. Granted, illithids have a hell of a lot of other bonuses in 3e that makes them really powerful and requiring a +7 LA (+2 str, +4 dex, +2 con, +8 int, +6 wis, +6 cha, +3 nat armor, tentacles, improved grab, extract, spell resistance, darkvision, to list... pretty much all of them). I would love to be able to have a mind flayer campaign as agents of the Elder Brain, capturing settlements, retrieving thralls, defending the city from invasion, etc.

edit: Also, tyckspoon ninja'd the first paragraph. Blargh!

Devils_Advocate
2008-05-20, 12:09 AM
"You get better with your racial abilities with more experience" doesn't really make any less sense than "You get better with your class abilities with more experience". Of course, the way that D&D characters improve from beginning adventurers to superhuman demigods by regularly overcoming challenges arguably doesn't make much sense in the first place. But it's a bit silly to criticize a particular element of this as "unrealistic". We tossed realism out the window to make room for hundreds of hit points and skill modifiers in the high twenties. High-level characters are cinematic fantasy heroes who get to do things that are impossible for real people by design.

And why would only acquired, learned abilities improve, anyway? 3E already features boosts to your natural abilities every 4 levels in the form of stat bumps, and rightly so. Exercising your muscles improves them, exercising your brain improves it... Heck, why wouldn't exercising your darkvision or whatever make it stronger? I'm not seeing how this fails to make sense.

Heck, look at humans in 3E. At 1st level, they're extra-skilled, and by level 10 they're really extra skilled; they just learn skills faster. So if you have a level 1 dwarf good at resisting magic and a level 10 dwarf really good at resisting magic, that's the same sort of thing; dwarves learn to resist spells faster than humans do. Of course, skill points and saving throws are both things that go up with levels no matter your race... if they scale a qualitative special ability like darkvision, that's a bit different. Maybe they'll only scale bonuses. But anyway, that's a blurry distinction, 'cuz you can get darkvision from PrCs, and more generally most any racial ability could theoretically be provided by a class, even if it's not a presently existing one. And anyway, like I said, it's like bumping your Str score. There's no reason you shouldn't get to bump things that not everyone has. Like, vampires don't even have Constitution, but you can still raise your Con score. Um, so there.

OK, I think I'm done rambling now.

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 12:19 AM
I like this system and I'm going to try and implement something of the sort to 3E games I'll be playing too - racial abilities depending on class attained at later levels (then again, I also give all characters a free Background Feat and endorse Traits, so I guess it's just the fact that I like to give them a chance to be unique).

As for LA and Racial Levels, I hate LA. It makes a Giant of the party the weakest character. I dislike Racial Levels, but I feel that's the only fair way to handle more powerful characters in a party. Also, it does play into the "the more powerful races are slower learners"-idea.

Using the 4E system as a replacement for LA will be interesting. I want to see how they pull it off in practice. I'll take anything over the 3E variant though; it's totally messed up.

Rutee
2008-05-20, 12:26 AM
Yeah, LA kinda.. sucks. I'm glad they're swapping it. It made me sad that Angels weren't playable in 3rd ed. At least, not /really/. Stupid Savage Species. It's a trap! (http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/241844/blonde_hair-blue_eyes-bridget-guilty_gear-sitting-)

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 12:32 AM
Yeah, LA kinda.. sucks. I'm glad they're swapping it. It made me sad that Angels weren't playable in 3rd ed. At least, not /really/. Stupid Savage Species. It's a trap! (http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/241844/blonde_hair-blue_eyes-bridget-guilty_gear-sitting-)

Your link totally fails since it requires logging in to view.

Also, echoing the sentiment on Angels; ultimately, that's what I want of fantasy, to play Angels, Giants, the truly wondrous folk of the world rather than Humans. I guess that's what draws me to Elves.

Rutee
2008-05-20, 12:37 AM
Oh Danbooru, why are you full of public fail?

It's a publicly viewable trap! (http://v2.sagubooru.com/data/3/80cb8bd4f59feb6339d2dbffddd9aa9b/ext=jpg/80cb8bd4f59feb6339d2dbffddd9aa9b.jpg)

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 12:45 AM
It's a publicly viewable trap! (http://v2.sagubooru.com/data/3/80cb8bd4f59feb6339d2dbffddd9aa9b/ext=jpg/80cb8bd4f59feb6339d2dbffddd9aa9b.jpg)

Oh my god, he gives me the Flea (http://flea.lunaescence.com/) Chills™! Also, shutting up...

EvilElitest
2008-06-10, 10:12 PM
1) No i realize how racial levels are better than LA, but i don't like the idea of it. Racial feats or racial levels are silly. Racial paragon classes is somebody coming in touch with their inner racial powers, but i like the idea of a race being static
2) I no LA sucked. My question is, are their any ways to
A) make it work
B) other methods to equalize the game
from
EE

Reinboom
2008-06-10, 11:09 PM
1) Please know that I realize how racial levels are better than LA, but I don't like the idea of it. Either racial feats or racial levels are both silly. Racial paragon classes could be somebody coming in touch with their inner racial powers, yet I like the idea of a race being static still.

2) I know LA sucked. My question is, are their any ways to:
A make it work?
B other methods to equalize the game?

from,
EE

Are you referring to 4E still? If so, racial progression no longer exists. Racial feats, sure, and I can see the argument there. Progressions? Not so much.

And yes, there is other ways to equalize the game. Most of the simple ones are:
Don't play a class based system with heavy miniature's based and combat focused set up, specifically where size and dimension (of the 3rd kind) make such an impact, etc.
Or, up the power base of every intended playable race from the start so much that it would be easier to work within those confines.

Conners
2008-06-11, 12:58 AM
So your race gets stronger as you level up? Hmm.... This is great for races that would normally have LA, methinks. This way, I can homebrew-customize gnoll to give it a STR bonus, but give it some sort of penalty to its racial leveling up, or something along those lines.

Mojo_Rat
2008-06-11, 01:16 AM
the game is Broken into 3 Tiers Heroic Paragon and Epic. Each tier has Feats associated with The various races appropriate to the power level of the tier involved.

So Dwarves get a weapon training feat and a Dodge giants feat in the Heroic tier. They then have some more powerful options when they ar ein the Paragon tier of play.

ITs better to Just think that You get more powerful feats related to your race at the level appropriate to get them.

Conners
2008-06-11, 09:27 AM
the game is Broken into 3 Tiers Heroic Paragon and Epic. Each tier has Feats associated with The various races appropriate to the power level of the tier involved.

So Dwarves get a weapon training feat and a Dodge giants feat in the Heroic tier. They then have some more powerful options when they ar ein the Paragon tier of play.

ITs better to Just think that You get more powerful feats related to your race at the level appropriate to get them. Oh, OK, thanks. Looks like balancing races through less racial leveling isn't going to work out :smalltongue:.

Indon
2008-06-11, 01:25 PM
I love the racial sub-progression featured in 4'th edition.

*cries for a lost dream*