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AmberVael
2008-05-19, 04:12 PM
Recently there have been a lot of attempts at this, and yet I don't think any of them really work. So I'm going to take my own crack at it. So here it goes.

Now, first off, before you can actually optimize a class, you have to establish what is unique about the class, and what it can do. The monk...
1) Has High Saves
2) Has Unique Armor Class opportunities
3) Has a high move speed
4) Potentially has the best base damage
5) Has more potential attacks than other classes
6) Has a number of smaller "immunities" and other ways to resist attacks or situations.
7) Has a few special attack options more readily available to it.

What the monk CAN do (and is not just overly skilled or focused at)
1) Close combat
2) Stealth
3) Skilling

However, the range of abilities and it's target abilities seem to point more towards melee than anything else. Armor class, move speed, base damage, more attacks- all of them benefit straight up combat, and the monk's unarmed strikes mean that ranged combat is, for the most part, out of the picture.
The number of abilities focused on combat and attacking should give it an edge over a number of other combat focused classes.

With these capabilities and this focus in mind, lets move forwards to the first part of the build.

The Ability Scores
It's no secret that the monk class has a ton of different abilities, all of which require different abilities. A demonstration of this is below:
1) Strength: Attack bonus and damage. Essential for the monk's focus, which is melee combat.
2) Dexterity: AC, reflex save, and skills. With monk AC being almost entirely dependent on non-armor bonuses, a high dexterity is good to have. Skills also benefit from a good dexterity.
3) Constitution: HP and Fort Save: A monk has a d8 HD, so upping your HP with Con would be a good idea.
4) Intelligence: Luckily not something you're going to have to worry about too much, unless you choose to be a skiller- which isn't the best choice for a monk, and thus has no bearing here!
5) Wisdom: Will saves and AC. Fairly good score to have. It also helps out with Stunning Fist and Quivering palm saves.
6) Charisma: Don't need it! Let someone else talk- you can sit around and say "ommmmmmmmmmmmm..." and meditate.
Still, this leaves four ability scores. Putting them in order of most valuable...
1) Strength
2) Constitution
3) Dexterity
4) Wisdom
With 28 point buy, you'd use the following stats (or some close variation thereof)
16 Strength, 14 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 8 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom, 8 Charisma

Higher point buys will of course give you a bigger advantage- most classes will be able to really achieve their max potential with 28 point buy or lower, and after that they won't gain as much from having higher stats. So when higher point buy comes in, monks become even better than they already are.
If you're starting at higher levels, it is also important to note that you can use that to your advantage buy choosing odd numbered abilities and adding on your points that you gain at every 4 levels, making the number of points you spend with the point buy system more efficient (as they are fully spread out across all your scores) and maximizing all of your abilities.

Feats- Monk bonus feats and Others
First off, the monk gains a total of three bonus feats.
At first level you have a choice between Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist. Improved grapple relies on a high BAB and more focused strength, so it is better to go with Stunning Fist, which also gives your Wisdom score another purpose.

Second level, you have a choice between Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows. If you're moving into more epic campaigns, Deflect Arrows can be worthwhile, but otherwise, you'll find more uses for Combat Reflexes.

Sixth level, either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. This is a rather difficult decision to make for a monk. On one hand, a monk has a much larger disadvantage with Disarm since they will be using their bare hands. On the other hand, Improved Trip won't work on as many enemies (since you can only trip enemies one size larger than yourself). I would choose Improved Trip, personally, as it allows extra attacks, and synergizes with Combat Reflexes more easily.

As for other feats, the notable feats for Monks are:
-Improved Natural attack (keep upping that high base damage)
-Superior Unarmed Strike (From ToB. Also ups your base damage)
-Weapon Finesse (helps to keep your MAD down a lot more, though it may mean less ability to deal damage)
-Power Attack (ups Damage)
-Shadow Blade (ToB, high feat expenditure, unless you take a dip in swordsage, but can really help with MAD, allowing you to focus almost entirely on Dex instead of strength)
-Martial Study (Again, ToB. Possibilities are endless. Mighty Throw can give Improved trip a good use, all of the Concentration based maneuvers make alot of the monk's skills more useful...)
-Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior- ups your more fragile HP)
-Spring Attack (with your speed, this chain can prove very useful, as well as a lot of the feats from the PHB II which can improve on it)
-Ability Focus (Good for Quivering Palm or Stunning Fist since you don't necessarily have the ability to focus on your Wisdom score)

Skills
We've already settled that Monks are meant for combat. So how best to use their skills?

Here are my choices and reasoning:
-Balance: Don't focus on it, but get a bit of skill in it to avoid things like grease or slippery surfaces, or so you can move around in combat more easily.
-Escape Artist: With lower BAB and unfocused strength, a grappling monster could eat you. Use Escape Artist to avoid that.
-Listen and Spot: Noticing things before anyone else? Ability to (perhaps) spot invisible creatures? Good for combat- allows you to get surprise or not be surprised.
-Tumble: Avoid AoOs. Move through enemy squares. It's very handy. If you use none of the other skills listed, get this one.

The Build
This is it- this is what you really want to see. Where is this effective monk, you ask? Surely it isn't possible?
My answer to the accusations of the monk's effectiveness are below.
No, it's not possible. Are you ****ing kidding me? Even if you use all of the above advice (which was half thrown together by me so I could type THIS, so maybe you'd better look somewhere else anyways) and get 40 point buy, the barbarian is still going to take a paddle to you and all you're going to get out of the encounter is humiliation and a red butt! You're a gimp! You are a jack of all trades- because you got kicked out of the specialty school and had to learn everything else as you scrounged for part time adventure jobs from the Wal-Marts and McDonalds of D&D campaign settings. No one wants you- they get funny expressions on their faces when you explain your intent to learn how to punch out scale and iron clad monsters with your bare, scrawny hands, and then say "maybe you should try somewhere else."
Sure you have some kind of mystical power of body perfection backing you up, but that's like saying I've reinforced paper with cardboard, you still can't use it to build something solid; unless of course you use certain geometric shapes, but I don't think monks are designed to be turned into tiny cylinders, and until you figure out how to do that with monks, you don't have anything to brag about.

Come on, monk. Sure the concept is cool, okay, yeah, I like your style. But you're just a pale imitator, a little kid who decided that one day, one day he wants to fly around and fight like the people in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. News flash, Monk boy- wrong turn. You were supposed to get off about twenty miles down the road, off onto Swordsage Drive, not into Wannabe Bruce Lee Parkway.
Come back in a few years, maybe get some Homebrew touch up work. Maybe they'll let you into 4th edition. Oh wait, you're not one of the base classes? Guess they learned from that mistake. Well, stinks to be you. In the meantime, I'm going to go hang out with the Tome of Battle crew.

What, still want a build? Want to be defined and play as best you can? Okay, here it is, really simple for you. Best monk build:
Page 197, PHB II. Class Level Rebuilding. Let me tell you- it'll be the best thing ever for a Monk.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 04:21 PM
Vael, you win a cookie...

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j317/mccloud24/CHOCOLATE_CHIP_COOKIE.jpg

...of doom. Or a loli, if you want one.


Really, that advice is golden. Pity a monk cannot be as good as a mystic swordsage (Which is a wizard that never runs out of spells, has a better BAB, and better HD, not to mention CLASS FEATURES!), though.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 04:27 PM
Or a loli, if you want one.

Because pedophilia is freaking awesome! Woooo! Oh, wait, no.

What the hell, dude? What the hell? This isn't 4chan.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 04:31 PM
See, that's called the Illusion of free choice.

Not to mention, that's a point that I've interestingly proved to just be a sociological idea, not a truly evil thing. I'll give you a link to the thread in which I discussed the subject.

Edit: Aha, here. Read up my answers to Swordguy.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80671

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 04:33 PM
See, that's called the Illusion of free choice.

Not to mention, that's a point that I've interestingly proved to just be a sociological idea, not a truly evil thing. I'll give you a link to the thread in which I discussed the subject.

No, dude. Just no. Get off to whatever you want as long as nobody's harmed by it, but let's not start pretending it's anything other than what is.

http://www.ibtimes.com/data/articleimgs/54022.jpg

Jack Mann
2008-05-19, 04:33 PM
See, I always figured I'd see someone go insane on these boards, but I was never sure just who it would be.

lord_khaine
2008-05-19, 04:34 PM
this is actualy a quite decent beginners monk guide, to bad you dont have more confidence in it.


Really, that advice is golden. Pity a monk cannot be as good as a mystic swordsage (Which is a wizard that never runs out of spells, has a better BAB, and better HD, not to mention CLASS FEATURES!), though.

doohh...
a monk cant quite messure up against that new type of class, that was made to brigde the gasp between casters and noncasters, how can this in any way be a surprise?

of course, its not like every Gm allows the use of ToB in their games.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 04:35 PM
Interesting, that could go for anyone of us, Vael, Reel, or me.

Incidentally, like I pointed out in that thread, it is NOT age that is the problem, it's taking the choice for someone else or forcing another free person. What matters there is maturity, not age.

Jack Mann
2008-05-19, 04:35 PM
this is actualy a quite decent beginners monk guide, to bad you dont have more confidence in it.



doohh...
a monk cant quite messure up against that new type of class, that was made to brigde the gasp between casters and noncasters, how can this in any way be a surprise?

of course, its not like every Gm allows the use of ToB in their games.

Yes, there are some GMs who still need an introduction to the broken pool cue of truth.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 04:36 PM
Reel On Love: you won't find that stuff on 4chan, since Moot declared it a 'grey area' (sending WT Snacks, with his epic level moderator progression, and artifact-level banhammer, v&ing with extreme prejudice anything that, well, he felt like).

Also: you win, Vael. I shall dig about for some sort of tribute that is neither edible nor legal-in-few-places-save-Japan.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 04:38 PM
Interesting, that could go for anyone of us, Vael, Reel, or me.

Incidentally, like I pointed out in that thread, it is NOT age that is the problem, it's taking the choice for someone else or forcing another free person. What matters there is maturity, not age.

The problem here is that prepubescents are not for sex. Period. And if you don't understand that, something's deeply wrong.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 04:39 PM
Legal, sought after...

AAAAH!

Either this...

http://www.hitmissorfumble.com/images/uploaded/TYV15077lg.jpg

...or this.

http://www.impawards.com/1975/posters/monty_python_and_the_holy_grail_ver1.jpg

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 04:40 PM
The problem here is that prepubescents are not for sex. Period. And if you don't understand that, something's deeply wrong.

Why? Because society says so? There is nothing that makes it impossible. Like I repeat, ad infinitum, the problem lies on maturity. Which, of course, most people achieve later in their lives, and some never do.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 04:42 PM
Seriously, Azerian. As a fellow Anon, I implore you to listen to my avatar, and get off 12chan right now.

Hey, do I hear a party van outside the door, AK? Look, it's for you! Your own special party van!


Anyway - I wouldn't compare the monk to a mystic swordsage, since those things are just ridiculous. Normal swordsages are still many, many times better.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 04:43 PM
Why? Because society says so? There is nothing that makes it impossible. Like I repeat, ad infinitum, the problem lies on maturity. Which, of course, most people achieve later in their lives, and some never do.

Because they're not sexual beings, Az. That's what "prepubescent" means.
I'm not going to sit here and explain to you why diddling kids is wrong. If you don't get it, you won't get it.

I'll just invite you to take a seat right over there.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 04:45 PM
Dunno why you freak out, guys. All I say is obviously from a purely hypothetical standpoint. What I say will (probably) never occurr because no child has EVER reached that kind of maturity at such an early age. EVER. There might be exceptions, but those would probably number in the mere dozens.

Seriously, chill out. Why're you acting so oddly? It's all philosphical musings.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 04:50 PM
Dunno why you freak out, guys. All I say is obviously from a purely hypothetical standpoint. What I say will (probably) never occurr because no child has EVER reached that kind of maturity at such an early age. EVER. There might be exceptions, but those would probably number in the mere dozens.

Seriously, chill out. Why're you acting so oddly? It's all philosphical musings.

Because "here, have a loli as a reward" trivializes it and tries to pass it off as acceptable, when it's not.

Some people can't help wanting kids. As long as all they do is fantasize, they're not doing anything wrong. They should be helped.
But that doesn't mean it should be freaking encouraged or passed off as acceptable.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 04:57 PM
Jeeze, talk about being paranoid. Maybe you should listen to some Play The Game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rI3S4sye58) and chill out. What's next, outright flaming me and accusing me of machismo and wanting to enslave the bigger half of the planet's population if I link to Warrant's Cherry Pie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdDxz2bkfhE)?

Charity
2008-05-19, 05:00 PM
Because "here, have a loli as a reward" trivializes it and tries to pass it off as acceptable, when it's not.

Some people can't help wanting kids. As long as all they do is fantasize, they're not doing anything wrong. They should be helped.
But that doesn't mean it should be freaking encouraged or passed off as acceptable.

Very much this.

Chronicled
2008-05-19, 05:00 PM
4chan? In MY Playground?!

:smallsigh:

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-19, 05:01 PM
Why? Because society says so? There is nothing that makes it impossible. Like I repeat, ad infinitum, the problem lies on maturity. Which, of course, most people achieve later in their lives, and some never do.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/incorrect4dr.jpg

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 05:03 PM
Jeeze, talk about being paranoid. Maybe you should listen to some Play The Game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rI3S4sye58) and chill out. What's next, outright flaming me and accusing me of machismo and wanting to enslave the bigger half of the planet's population if I link to Warrant's Cherry Pie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdDxz2bkfhE)?

If you can't tell the difference between a music video and casually suggesting pedophilic actions as a reward...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 05:03 PM
Very much this.

Very much my answer above. Reel's response is that of a nutjob. I very much endorse Mel Brooks' philosophy: Make the horrible things humorous, so that we can face them and they don't happen again. If he ever manages to make Hitler so humorous so that he cannot be taken seriously anymore (Which is his stated goal), Brooks will be my hero.

Charity
2008-05-19, 05:05 PM
^ giving out loli as a reward achieves this how?

but -
We are crapping on Vaels thread of win guys could we not?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 05:05 PM
If you can't tell the difference between a music video and casually suggesting pedophilic actions as a reward...

If you can't tell the difference between semi-philosophic musings and sarcasm...Then you are very much lost and things are not going to go well in life for you.

AmberVael
2008-05-19, 05:06 PM
Here I was wanting to write up a sarcastic rant, and it got polluted by 4chan-esque posting arguments. :smallsigh:

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 05:06 PM
If you can't tell the difference between semi-philosophic musings and sarcasm...Then you are very much lost and things are not going to go well in life for you.

"Here, have a loli" is not semi-philosophic musings.
It's "pedophilia? It's AWWWWRIIIIIGHT."

Just... drop it, dude. Seriously, drop it. It wasn't okay, it isn't okay, and it'll never be okay. All you're doing is turning yourself into the resident Creepy Guy.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:07 PM
4chan? In MY Playground?!

:smallsigh:

Nah, they got kicked out of there years ago. Look at tripling that figure.

Sorry to derail your thread, Vael. *bows*

May I also recommend another useful Monk feat? Tashalatora, from Secrets of Sarlona. Now that's a nice feat.

Take your first level in Monk (preferably with Kung Fu genius, too, although that's a little feat intensive), and go, I dunno, Erudite, or psychic warrior if you can wean yourself off full casters, the rest of the way. It makes psionic class levels count as monk levels for:


unarmed damage
AC
flurry of blows


thus proving the old adage; to be a good monk, take as few levels as possible in the class.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 05:08 PM
Vael: 4chan-esque? Never. 4chan has probably never produced a debate of this caliber.

Reel, I was referring to the following posts. Really, if you're going to be Thick as a Brick, you should at least show off your theme song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzze87ZilQk)

Charity
2008-05-19, 05:08 PM
Here I was wanting to write up a sarcastic rant, and it got polluted by 4chan-esque posting arguments. :smallsigh:

Sorry Vael :smallredface:

SamTheCleric
2008-05-19, 05:10 PM
Vael. If I were not married, I would run off with you to the wilderness to some exotic place...like Delaware. That is how awesome your post is.

Its Delaware awesome. :smallcool:

Chronicled
2008-05-19, 05:12 PM
Nah, they got kicked out of there years ago. Look at tripling that figure.

They seem to be making a comeback in the past couple weeks, unfortunately. Or have you missed the EFG sightings?

Of course, I won't argue that my earlier post should have said 12chan. How silly of me.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:14 PM
They seem to be making a comeback in the past couple weeks, unfortunately. Or have you missed the EFG sightings.

Of course, I won't argue that my earlier post should have said 12chan. How silly of me.

Er, the EFG sightings have been drawn by the Epic Fail, not anything else. And anything in the grey area on 4chan gets saged and modded to high heaven nowadays.

Anyway, more to prop up the original topic:can we find a list of decent monk PrCs? Y'know, to escape the class as soon as possible?

Also, some mention needs to be made of the Gloura Monk charisma monster. They are fairly decent builds, even if they do have only the one monk level.

Chronicled
2008-05-19, 05:19 PM
Er, the EFG sightings have been drawn by the Epic Fail, not anything else. And anything in the grey area on 4chan gets saged and modded to high heaven nowadays.

:smallconfused:

:smalleek:

Sorry, I'd misread your earlier post as saying that the 4chan crowd had gotten the boot from here years ago (and was referring to the EFG appearances, etc, here). I've seen the 4chan response to threads in the gray area myself.


Anyway, more to prop up the original topic:can we find a list of decent monk PrCs? Y'know, to escape the class as soon as possible?

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon) lets you polymorph into a dragon 1/day after taking its final level. Psionic Fist (XPH) is one of the better ways to go if you've already fallen into monk, making you almost into a psychic warrior. Sacred Fist (CD) is decent enough, as is Enlightened Fist (CArc). Note that all of these other than the one using polymorph have to add casting to the monk to make it viable.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:29 PM
:smallconfused:

:smalleek:

Sorry, I'd misread your earlier post as saying that the 4chan crowd had gotten the boot from here years ago (and was referring to the EFG appearances, etc, here).

I believe we infected Solo with it, and he acted as a superb vector.


Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon) lets you polymorph into a dragon 1/day after taking its final level. Psionic Fist (XPH) is one of the better ways to go if you've already fallen into monk, making you almost into a psychic warrior. Sacred Fist (CD) is decent enough, as is Enlightened Fist (CArc). Note that all of these other than the one using polymorph have to add casting to the monk to make it viable.

Hmm ... isn't there something called Fist of Zuoken, or something? I've heard good things about that.

Also - you won't believe this - if you can easily obtain very high DCs, the Disciple of the Word - the Monk who truespeaks - is actually quite good.

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-19, 05:30 PM
Hmm ... isn't there something called Fist of Zuoken, or something? I've heard good things about that.

Psionic Fist = Fist of Zuoken, only OGL.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:33 PM
No, it wasn't that - I've got it.

Zerth Cenobite.

4th level powers, plus some nice time-related effects. Quite nice - but still not enough to win anyone over from ToB.

mabriss lethe
2008-05-19, 05:41 PM
Sometimes I'll just play a monk out of pure spite. that spite seems directly related to how much the other players dislike the monk.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:43 PM
You're doing it wrong, Mabriss.

You want to show your spite, play a swashbuckler.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 05:45 PM
No, it wasn't that - I've got it.

Zerth Cenobite.

4th level powers, plus some nice time-related effects. Quite nice - but still not enough to win anyone over from ToB.

Zerth Cenobites is more like it. Any actually useful time powers are 1/day.


On the upside, they can literally punch people into next week. Which is freaking awesome.

Charity
2008-05-19, 05:45 PM
Surely the Samurai is the ultimate :smalltongue: class

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:49 PM
On the upside, they can literally punch people into next week. Which is freaking awesome.

It is indeed. Someday, I might optimise a character with solely awesome abilities. This, basketweaving, the RAW Camel's hump from Geomancer, and that PrC that requires you to kill a hippo to advance.

Chronicled
2008-05-19, 05:49 PM
Surely the Samurai is the ultimate :smalltongue: class

The Soulknife will fight any Samurai for that title! :smallwink:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-19, 05:50 PM
I bring forth the Truenamer! He'll defeat you all with his superior "Yo momma" jokes and name calling! :smalltongue:

Chronicled
2008-05-19, 05:54 PM
and that PrC that requires you to kill a hippo to advance.

:smallconfused: Wait... wait wait wait... wait. There's a PrC that requires you to kill a hippo? Where is this?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:59 PM
:smallconfused: Wait... wait wait wait... wait. There's a PrC that requires you to kill a hippo? Where is this?

It was in a Dragon sometime, that was building on Sandstorm. I'll find it for you.

mabriss lethe
2008-05-19, 05:59 PM
I actually managed to create a pretty horrific character using monk 2/ wight (from libris mortis) 8 /finishing it off with Tattooed monk. (or was it monk 3..I can't remember offhand.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-19, 06:06 PM
The Build
This is it- this is what you really want to see. Where is this effective monk, you ask? Surely it isn't possible?
My answer to the accusations of the monk's effectiveness are below.


That was completely awesome. You win an Internet.

:smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2008-05-19, 06:08 PM
It was in a Dragon sometime, that was building on Sandstorm. I'll find it for you.

It's actually in Sandstorm proper, IIRC. Not all that good, mechanically, but you get Turn Hippo. It's pretty much the most awesome thing in the book, except for maybe the Dune ripoff Ashworm Dragoon.

Fhaolan
2008-05-19, 06:13 PM
:smallconfused: Wait... wait wait wait... wait. There's a PrC that requires you to kill a hippo? Where is this?

Technically, all you have to do is *defeat* a hippo, but since D&D doesn't do non-lethal combats very well..

Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (Sandstorm pg 82) has a requirement of having the gone through a Blessing of Tem-Et-Nu ceremony. According to that same book, that means the feat 'Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu' (Sandstorm pg 42). The feat, in turn, has the actual requirement of defeating a hippo in single combat.

Charity
2008-05-19, 07:25 PM
Wooh I got total lost looking for a picture of a guy wrestling a hippo... found nothing I can post...

SurlySeraph
2008-05-19, 08:27 PM
I actually managed to create a pretty horrific character using monk 2/ wight (from libris mortis) 8 /finishing it off with Tattooed monk. (or was it monk 3..I can't remember offhand.

No surprise. Anything that lets you drain a lot of levels in a round is good.

And now, my glorious copy-pasted rant in defense of monks:

Monks aren't useless. Single-class monks are pretty much useless, yes, but there's a lot you can do about that.

Specifically, Monk 11/ Rogue 9.

You can combine Flurry of Blows with the Two-Weapon Fighting tree. Since you are not an idiot, you are using light weapons. That gives you 8 attacks per round, at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 (main hand) and +13/+10/+5 (off hand). A fighter has half that many attacks. Yes, the fighter's attacks are more accurate, but with that many attacks some of them are going to hit. Since you are not an idiot, you took the Ascetic Rogue feat, so each of your attacks does 2d10 damage.

But that's just the monk part. The rogue part is the entire reason why you got yourself so damn many attacks: Sneak Attack. If you get a flank set up, you have 8 attacks, each of which does 2d10+5d6 damage.

Now take the entire two-weapon fighting chain. Then get monk weapons that you can dual-wield. Enchant one of them with Speed, and both of them with the Deadly Precision weapon enhancement from Complete Adventurer. If you have the money, add some combination of Flaming, Frost, Shocking, and Acid. Now you have 10 attacks per round, each of which does at least 7d6 bonus damage.

Of course, all those extra attacks are worthless if you can't hit reliably. There's no effective and completely-non-cheesy way around that. Getting weapons with higher enhancement bonuses is ridiculously pricy for little benefit. A wand of Wraithstrike is highly effective. Yes, using UMD at all and using it to cast Wraithstrike in particular is cheese. It's no cheesier than Leap Attack/ Shock Trooper builds.

But that's a highly specific build I created to prove a point (even though the point of it, that monks can be viable fighters, but absolutely must have a good amount of bonus damage per attack to do so, is less specific). Basically, the best monks are those that are mixed with other classes and use the basic monk abilities (which are decent) to supplement normal abilities, instead of getting the increasingly worthless high-level monk abilities. The Arcane Fist and Psionic Fist are good. They're largely good because they have access to casting, but they still make good use of their monk abilities to power it.

It's true that the Monk has horrible multiple ability dependency. That's why this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) is useful for making decent monks.

Monks don't suck unless you let them suck. Just as there is virtually no good reason to play a pureclass fighter past level 4, there is no defendable reason to play a pureclass monk past level 11 (and little reason to play a pureclass monk past level 4 or level 2). That's what multiclassing is for. A monk is useful as a dip to get the useful abilities; then you drop it.

Eldariel
2008-05-19, 08:52 PM
Monk is actually a superb class that contains two levels. First level gives you a feat from a relatively open list (given enough source material), Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows and increased Unarmed Damage. Second level has Evasion and another solid feat. All this with decent skills and excellent saves. It's right up there with Martial Rogue as one of the better melee dips for Evasion; really up to whether you want to be able to hit things hard, or find and disable traps.

Also, Prestiged Up Monks are ok; Sacred Fist is quite strong, Shadow Sun Ninja is obviously great and then there's all the OA stuff.

Frosty
2008-05-19, 08:57 PM
Query: I've been thinking about this, and I've never sene it in a real game yet, but does an Unarmed Swordsage really make a better unarmed warrior than a properly optimized Monk?

Eldariel
2008-05-19, 09:09 PM
Query: I've been thinking about this, and I've never sene it in a real game yet, but does an Unarmed Swordsage really make a better unarmed warrior than a properly optimized Monk?

Yes, yes it does.

First of all, Unarmed Swordsage can contribute since he can use Strikes to do stuff other than just deal HP damage.

Second, Unarmed Swordsage doesn't need to max any ability; you can make one based on Str, Dex or Wis all of which are perfectly viable, and have a different array of save-inducing Strikes that are keyed off that particular score. This allows him to act as a Striker or a Battlefield Controller. Oh, and they all of course have a massive number of saveless maneuvers which they'll probably prefer, but they can try to for nice save-requiring effects too.

Third, Unarmed Swordsage has manoeuvrability generated by maneuvers rather than mere speed increases, allowing him to move before and after a Strike, and making him easily mobile enough on the battlefield to be where he wants to be.

Fourth, Unarmed Swordsage can deliver more impressive flurries than a 20th level Monk thanks to Rapid Mongoose, Time Stands Still and company. Also, an Unarmed Swordsage happens to get Pounce as a maneuver, which solves the whole mobility issue.

Fifth, Unarmed Swordsage gets more skillpoints and mostly has a better skill list (that inexplicitly lacks Listen though), making Int less of a necessity than for a Monk.

Sixth, free Weapon Focus level 1 goes a long way to help 'em hit on the first levels, making their hit equal to full BAB classes for the first 4 levels.

tyckspoon
2008-05-19, 09:10 PM
Query: I've been thinking about this, and I've never sene it in a real game yet, but does an Unarmed Swordsage really make a better unarmed warrior than a properly optimized Monk?

I don't see how it wouldn't. Superior Unarmed Strike gets it an improved damage progression, and then the normal boosting stuff can be applied. It'll cap out at exactly the same place the Monk does if you can get Greater Mighty Wallop applied, otherwise it'll be behind by a little bit. Then the Swordsage gets better class features and maneuvers on top, which mostly leaves the Monk with Flurry as his primary claim to being a better fighter.. which can be imitated if desired by using Snap Kick and the Mongoose boosts from Tiger Claw. Try.. say, a Human Unarmed Swordsage focusing on Dex and Wis as priority stats and Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw as primary disciplines. Dex to damage, Concealment or Sneak Attack (from Shadow Hand stances), teleportation, extra attacks, mundane movement abilities.

Edit: Duh. Unarmed Swordsage already uses the Monk progression. So yeah, you're not losing anything important to unarmed fighting and you're gaining so much more.

Xefas
2008-05-19, 09:11 PM
Query: I've been thinking about this, and I've never sene it in a real game yet, but does an Unarmed Swordsage really make a better unarmed warrior than a properly optimized Monk?

I had two swordsages in my last campaign (which ended recently), one of which was unarmed. This was the second time the unarmed swordsage's player had played D&D ever. The first time was with a monk.

He claims to have had (quote) "...a lot more fun with this."

I'm not sure that automatically qualifies it as "better" mechanically, but he seemed to, overall, be more important to the success/failure of the group as a whole.

Also, Azerian gave me a loli not so long ago as well. I'm a little confused; should I be insulted or something? :smallconfused:

Eldariel
2008-05-19, 09:12 PM
I don't see how it wouldn't. Superior Unarmed Strike gets it an improved damage progression, and then the normal boosting stuff can be applied. It'll cap out at exactly the same place the Monk does if you can get Greater Mighty Wallop applied, otherwise it'll be behind by a little bit.

Unarmed Swordsage has Monk Damage Progression. It only lacks Flurry.

Regarding the loli, he probably meant the clothing style.

GoC
2008-05-19, 09:17 PM
Has anyone contacted a mod to ask about removing certain posts from page 1?

Azerian Kelimon&Reel On, Love: Would it be too inconvenient to delete your page 1 posts?

Frosty
2008-05-19, 09:53 PM
In other words, there is no reason to play Monk when you have acces to ToB except as a two level dip for feats?

Eldariel
2008-05-19, 10:03 PM
In other words, there is no reason to play Monk when you have acces to ToB except as a two level dip for feats?

Monk is good for the Flurry, but yea, you don't really want to play a singleclassed Monk without ToB, let alone with it. Take those two-four levels for full Flurry and miscellaneous benefits, but beyond that, stuff like Shadow Sun Ninja is where it's at.

Cuddly
2008-05-19, 10:05 PM
Nah, they got kicked out of there years ago. Look at tripling that figure.

Sorry to derail your thread, Vael. *bows*

May I also recommend another useful Monk feat? Tashalatora, from Secrets of Sarlona. Now that's a nice feat.

Take your first level in Monk (preferably with Kung Fu genius, too, although that's a little feat intensive), and go, I dunno, Erudite, or psychic warrior if you can wean yourself off full casters, the rest of the way. It makes psionic class levels count as monk levels for:


unarmed damage
AC
flurry of blows


thus proving the old adage; to be a good monk, take as few levels as possible in the class.

Kung Fu genius is unnecessary for a psywar, since they're wisdom based manifesters.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 04:24 AM
Yeah, but, to be honest, I'd rather be an erudite. And have spell to power. :smallamused:

AmberVael
2008-05-20, 09:27 AM
So you'd rather play a wizard? :smalltongue:

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-20, 10:30 AM
Yes, using UMD at all and using it to cast Wraithstrike in particular is cheese. It's no cheesier than Leap Attack/ Shock Trooper builds.
Actually, yeah it is, because the vaunted Leap Attack/Shock Trooper build is ludicrously easy to shut down. :smalltongue: Hold the Line, Stand Still, and a reach weapon. Problem solved.

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 10:56 AM
Actually, yeah it is, because the vaunted Leap Attack/Shock Trooper build is ludicrously easy to shut down. :smalltongue: Hold the Line, Stand Still, and a reach weapon. Problem solved.

Or just, y'know, Elusive Target. Or just an AC-focus. The issue with Wraithstrike is that none of that helps. You're gonna get your ass kicked to the moon whether you take precautions or not.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 11:27 AM
So you'd rather play a wizard? :smalltongue:

I'd rather play a wizard who has full, spontaneous, access to psionics and arcane magic (from bards and such as well), and never has to pay for material components.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-20, 12:05 PM
Or just, y'know, Elusive Target. Or just an AC-focus. The issue with Wraithstrike is that none of that helps. You're gonna get your ass kicked to the moon whether you take precautions or not.
Yes, I know that; that's why I said Leap Attack/Shock Trooper isn't as cheesy as wraithstrike. :smalltongue: An AC focus isn't going to help all that much against Shock Trooper, though, because the whole point of Shock Trooper is that it lets you power attack without dropping your attack bonus, since it draws from AC instead of BAB.
Also, Azerian gave me a loli not so long ago as well. I'm a little confused; should I be insulted or something? :smallconfused:
Not insulted so much as disgusted. I won't tell you to Google it, because that's dangerous, and I doubt I can make it any plainer than Reel On did without actually saying it (mainly because he did; pedophilia is not awesome, and if I have to give it more detail than that for you to get it, then I won't).
Has anyone contacted a mod to ask about removing certain posts from page 1?
Why? Let them stand; I certainly don't see a reason not to, and at least two to let them stay. One being that deleting so many posts would completely screw with the thread's formatting. :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2008-05-20, 12:52 PM
Because they're not sexual beings, Az. That's what "prepubescent" means.
I'm not going to sit here and explain to you why diddling kids is wrong. If you don't get it, you won't get it.

I'll just invite you to take a seat right over there.

I don't think anyone likes to be objectified and called a sexual being. I'm a person not a sex object, mmkay.

And if you look at history: what we call prepunescent is historically allowed. This is a culture war. We changed how we feel so now we demonizse the past.

Are you calling the Prophet Muhammad a Pervert because he married 6 year olds (he did actually you know but only 1 I think)?



But back on topic:
Monks with the Complete Divine version gauntlet of Bahamut Relic item are decent. The Magic Item Comprendruim nerfed the guantlet so no longer stacks with Monk's Belt.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-20, 12:55 PM
RELIGION AND POLITICS DISCUSSION IMMINENT. PREPARE TO BAIL THREAD.

Okay, just had to say that.

Vortling
2008-05-20, 01:02 PM
The other nice thing about the unarmed swordsage is the ability to wear armor without loosing class abilities. They can wear masterwork studded leather armor with no penalties even though they don't have proficiency. Comes in handy at lower levels.

Cuddly
2008-05-20, 10:12 PM
Or just, y'know, Elusive Target. Or just an AC-focus. The issue with Wraithstrike is that none of that helps. You're gonna get your ass kicked to the moon whether you take precautions or not.

Unless you're a dragon or other high nat armor creature and cast scintillating scales. (And using your epic dire charge, leap attack, power attack, and shock trooper to really show the party fighter how it's done)

Chronicled
2008-05-20, 11:09 PM
There's clearly been a misunderstanding in this thread. What was obviously meant:

http://www.sweetfactory.com/images/uploads/32065-TeenyRoundPop.jpg

After all, everyone loves lollipops.

Solo
2008-05-20, 11:13 PM
I don't think anyone likes to be objectified and called a sexual being. I'm a person not a sex object, mmkay.
No need to be so limited in your thinking. No reason you can't be both.



And if you look at history: what we call prepunescent is historically allowed. This is a culture war. We changed how we feel so now we demonizse the past.

Slavery. That is all.