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marjan
2008-05-19, 07:00 PM
In one of the threads lussmanj and I disagreed on weather Shadowcraft Mage works as described here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556) and I am interested about your opinion on this subject.

Here is what I said:


This is completely untrue. The Killer Gnome gives you more stuff:
1. he doesn't only get lvl9 spells earlier (you know kinda game-breaking by itself), he also gets to use his cantrips to cast them.
2. miracle is evocation spell (is this enough for you), which he can cast from cantrip slot
3. with proper feats he can spontaneously cast those spells (wizard's inflexibility for spells prepared is gone)

Does any of this sound game-breaking?


And here is his reply:


like what?

Do you even know how Killer Gnome works? Sure, you are casting a 1st level spell (Silent Image) but you have to Heighten it to an 8th level spell slot in order to cast a 9th level spell. And that only works a few times per day, depending on which other metamagic reducer you use. Arcane Thesis doesn't work with Heighten, which leaves Metamagic School Focus (3/day), Practical Metamagic and Easy Metamagic, one of which requires you to be of draconic heritage and the other is so cheasy most DMs won't allow it. Without those, you are using Xth level slots to cast Xth level spells, not cantrips. Read before you comment.

This doesn't work. The wording on ScM's ability clearly calls out spells on THE WIZARDS SPELL LIST, not spells the wizard may add to his list with other feats/abilities. Most people just ignore that part because they see "ZOMGFREEMIRICLES" and have an accident. Doesn't work that way.
You still have to prep enough Minor Images to do what you need, and if you prep too many, you give up the rest of your versistility. Also, Shadow Illusions ALL have SR, even if the base type doesn't. Creatures like Golems have infinite SR (effectively) and thus are completely immune to your Shadowed Solid Fog, and your Shadowed Orbs. ScMs are no more versitile or powerful than a sorcerer or a wizard with Alacritous Cognition, since you have to invest a great deal of feats into the combo anyway.


Only if you cheat.

And here are the things I disagree with him:

1. I did exaggerate when I said that you can use cantrips to cast 9th level spells, but you can do so with 1st level spells thanks to the Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Residual Metamagic and Shadow Illusion. Note that there are no metamagic cost reducers here, so it doesn't matter if they work or not. This alone only gives you access to specific spells (conjuration[summoning], conjuration[creation] and evocation).
2. Yes, you can only cast wizard spells this way, but we have Arcane Disciple (Luck) to solve that problem. It adds Miracle to your class spell list and your class is wizard, so it is now on the wizard's spell list.
3. Preparation of Silent Images is not a problem due to Signature Spell feat.
4. Golems can be bigger problem than they are for your usual wizard, but how many can you expect to encounter really and how smart are they. Solid Fog and Orbs of X aren't the only way of dealing with them.
5. Yes, they need to invest great deal of feats to pull this one off, but access to any spell of up to 7th level in game is pretty good deal. Show me feats that will let you do that, plus you can get your illusions to be more then 100% real (doesn't really make sense but it is possible by RAW).

What I would like to know is your opinion on weather or not this build(s) work by RAW.

EDIT: also golems (at least those I've seen) don't have infinite SR (even effectively is debatable), they have Spell Immunity.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-19, 07:12 PM
The Arcane Disciple thing works.

But saying "first-level spells" is very disingenuous--a first-level spell heightened to 8th level uses up an 8th-level spell slot and effectively is an 8th level spell.

Fully optimized Shadowcraft Mages are more powerful than "regular" sorcerers/wizards, yes. Without the Miracles they're no Incantatrix, though.

marjan
2008-05-19, 07:37 PM
But saying "first-level spells" is very disingenuous--a first-level spell heightened to 8th level uses up an 8th-level spell slot and effectively is an 8th level spell.


I think I didn't express myself in best way. In the first round he casts Silent Image modified to ninth level (and therefore considered 10th level spell thanks to Earth Spell) from his 9th level slot. In the second round he casts Silent Image from one of his lower level slots (as low as 1st level), and it receives the benefit of Heighten Spell thanks to Residual Metamagic. So it isn't really 9th level spell at the cost of 1st, but 2 9th level spells at the cost of one 9th and one 1st level spell.

Te'Shen
2008-05-20, 02:42 AM
Yes, it does.

And there are a few things to make it a little more nasty. Make a dragonborn gnome so you can add easy metamagic and practical metamagic. You can also, if an illusionist gnome or illusionist dragonborn gnome, take the racial substitution features for illusionist from races of stone to make a few of your spells work from a lower level... It's kind of hard, though, to squeeze in all the feats that this character can benefit from. And that's why prc choice is important as well.

Keld Denar
2008-05-20, 07:34 AM
Yea, I forgot about Residual Metamagic. That does pretty much double/triple your high level spell slots per day. Low level spell slots do bring a lot of utility, however, especially with some spells like Benign Transposition, Glitterdust (reviels invis stuff for the fighters to whack), etc.

Signature Spell is kind of a trap. Because you are casting spontaneously, like a sorcerer or cleric converting cures, adding metamagic (Heighten) to a spell on the fly increases the casting time to a full round action. That cuts down on your mobility alot, and keeps you from applying Quicken to any of your Shadow Illusions. The trick still works, but its hampered pretty badly.

I've debated with a lot of people about Arcane Disciple. Because of the explicit wording of both (one uses the wizard/sorc spell list, the other adds spells to YOUR spell list), most people I know of agree that Shadow Illusion doesn't work with Miracle because it only appears on your spell list, rather than on the actual wiz/sorc spell list. Unfortunately, a few people over on the CharOp boards seem to think that since you are a wizard, any spell on your list is a wizard spell, regardless of how it got there. This is where the most common disagreement is, and it is kind of grey. By a strict reading though, IMO, this trick doesn't work, and any DM with a grain of sanity would agree. Sorry for invoking any falacy, but I mean, come on.

Also, where the hell are you getting all these feat slots from...Unless you are playing with flaws, you only really get 8 feats as an SCM. Which are you taking?

Earth Sense
Earth Spell
Heighten Spell
Spell Focus: Illusion
Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
Spell Mastery
Signature Spell
Metamagic School Focus: Illusion
Residual Metamagic

You could possibly squeek out GSF for free with MS after taking wizard5, but you are still consuming 6-7 of your feats on your gimmek.

Oh, and the Dragonborn thing doesnt work. You aren't a Gnome anymore if you become reborn as a Dragonborn. Since you aren't a Gnome, you can't qualify for ScM unless you take the 3 levels of Stoneblessed, which loses a CL.

namo
2008-05-20, 07:51 AM
The Miracle part is certainly not ironclad - there is room for disagreeing. I have seen people use the "DM Fiat" part of Miracle to potentially invalidate Miracles: it's not unreasonable either. Personally I think it all works, but I admit to a bias since I consider the core trick of the build extremely elegant.

Don't compare it to Alacritous Cogitation though, because that sucks. Uncanny Forethought is a whole other can of worms.

Dragonborns still qualify as members of their original race.

valadil
2008-05-20, 09:12 AM
Even without Miracle, it's still a pretty awesome build.

Lochar
2008-05-20, 09:15 AM
Also, where the hell are you getting all these feat slots from...Unless you are playing with flaws, you only really get 8 feats as an SCM. Which are you taking?

Earth Sense
Earth Spell
Heighten Spell
Spell Focus: Illusion
Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
Spell Mastery
Signature Spell
Metamagic School Focus: Illusion
Residual Metamagic

You could possibly squeek out GSF for free with MS after taking wizard5, but you are still consuming 6-7 of your feats on your gimmek.

Spell Mastery can be nixed if you take the Illusion Mastery variant, as it gives you the virtual feat of Spell Mastery for all your illusions.

marjan
2008-05-20, 09:20 AM
Signature Spell is kind of a trap. Because you are casting spontaneously, like a sorcerer or cleric converting cures, adding metamagic (Heighten) to a spell on the fly increases the casting time to a full round action. That cuts down on your mobility alot, and keeps you from applying Quicken to any of your Shadow Illusions. The trick still works, but its hampered pretty badly.

Not really a trap (if you are certain you will use it, it's better to memorize it though). At that point wizard's mobility usually doesn't come from his own movement.


I've debated with a lot of people about Arcane Disciple. Because of the explicit wording of both (one uses the wizard/sorc spell list, the other adds spells to YOUR spell list)

First I know no sane DM would allow this to exist in his/her game.
Arcane Disciple says that you add spells to your class spell list. And since your class is wizard you add to wizard spell list and that is exactly what you need (if shadow illusion required wizard/sorceror spell list you might argue that the feat only adds to wizard list which isn't the same, but that's not the case). By strict reading of the rules wizard is the only one able to pull this one of.

Keld Denar
2008-05-20, 06:53 PM
ok, looking at Complete Divine. The exact wording from the book is
Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells...
Emphasis mine. Doesn't seem very ambiguous to me. Your class list of spells includes all spells from the wizard/sorcerer spell list, plus the spells from the chosen domain. 2 different sources resulting in one list of spell from which you choose to prepare.

Now, for Shadow Illusion


Shadow Illusion (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to
infuse some of his figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane
of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes
from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to
mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation),
or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The
altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow
evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of
the figment spell used...

Again, emphasis mine. So, you can only mimic a sorcerer or wizard spell from the sorcerer or wizard spell list. If the spell does not appear on the sorcerer or wizard spell list, it is not a sorcerer or wizard spell. Miracle does not appear on the sorcerer or wizard spell list, it is added to YOUR PERSONAL spell list via the Arcane Disciple feat as I specified above.

Consider this. A warmage picks up Wall of Force with his Advanced Learning special feature. Wall of Force is now on his personal spell list, and he can opt to cast it using an appropriate level spell slot. This does NOT make it a warmage spell. It has never been a warmage spell, nor will it ever be a warmage spell, no matter what. A different warmage can not cast Wall of Force if he did not select it as advanced learning because its not a warmage spell, even if the warmage next to him is able to cast it. Similarly, a warmage that picks up the Arcane Disciple feat for Luck can now cast Miracle. Miracle still isn't a warmage spell, because the warmage next to him can't cast it unless he ALSO takes Arcane Disiple for Luck. Miracle has been added to warmage A's list of arcane spells, but warmage B can't cast it so its not a warmage spell.

I hope this clarifies it.

marjan
2008-05-20, 11:32 PM
Again, emphasis mine. So, you can only mimic a sorcerer or wizard spell from the sorcerer or wizard spell list. If the spell does not appear on the sorcerer or wizard spell list, it is not a sorcerer or wizard spell. Miracle does not appear on the sorcerer or wizard spell list, it is added to YOUR PERSONAL spell list via the Arcane Disciple feat as I specified above.


Your emphasis and what arcane disciple says are two different things. Arcane disciple adds to your class spell list and your class list is Wizard/Sorceror list.

Cuddly
2008-05-20, 11:39 PM
Don't forget that earth spell gives you a bonus to CL equal to the amount you heighten your spell. So your ninth level heightened silent images cast as fireballs or whatever have +9 CL to break SR.

Keld Denar
2008-05-21, 05:17 AM
Don't forget that earth spell gives you a bonus to CL equal to the amount you heighten your spell. So your ninth level heightened silent images cast as fireballs or whatever have +9 CL to break SR.

Doesn't matter when the thing you are trying to fireball has effectively SR: 8 (turn it sideways). Golems and their ilk have effectively infinite SR, which means you have to mem a few non-illusions to deal with them.

Also, read it how you will. Your reading will get the whole class banned for ZOMGMIRACLESPAMing, where as mine is significantly tamer. I still maintain that they are 2 different spell lists, as indicated by my last post. I can't stop you from interpreting it your way, but your DM can stop you from playing this fun and versistile variant on your standard batman/GOD style wizard.

JBento
2008-05-21, 05:31 AM
I have to to vote against on the Arcane Disciple thing, too, just like lussmanj. Otherwise, I don't need all that stuff to get a Miracle with an arcan spellcaster, I just need Schroedinger's Killer Gnome. Look:

If it is possible for that to happen, then, in all likelyhood it has already happened during the campaign history (not campaign time, HISTORY, i.e., all that has gone before even though the characters weren't around). So, since by Schroedinger's Killer Gnome Miracle IS in the Sor/Wiz spell list, what stops ANY Wizard to scribe it in his spellbook with one oh his 2 bonus spells per level or a Sorcerer to get it as one of his spells known?

EDIT: And not just Miracle. That reading of Arcane Disciple would allow any Wizard or Sorceror to get nearly any spell, EVAH

Keld Denar
2008-05-21, 08:27 AM
Another way to think about it would be in the case of an arcane/arcane hybred class, such as the Ultimate Magus. AD only adds the spells to the class spell list for a single class, and specifically calls out that if you have multiple arcane spell casting lists, that you only add them to one. So, if you take AD to add Luck to your wizard class spell list, it wouldn't appear on your sorcerer class spell list, which is undebatably different from your wizard spell list. It still wouldn't be on THE wizard class spell list, and therefore not an applicable target for Shadow Illusion.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-21, 10:08 AM
I have to to vote against on the Arcane Disciple thing, too, just like lussmanj. Otherwise, I don't need all that stuff to get a Miracle with an arcan spellcaster, I just need Schroedinger's Killer Gnome. Look:

If it is possible for that to happen, then, in all likelyhood it has already happened during the campaign history (not campaign time, HISTORY, i.e., all that has gone before even though the characters weren't around). So, since by Schroedinger's Killer Gnome Miracle IS in the Sor/Wiz spell list, what stops ANY Wizard to scribe it in his spellbook with one oh his 2 bonus spells per level or a Sorcerer to get it as one of his spells known?

EDIT: And not just Miracle. That reading of Arcane Disciple would allow any Wizard or Sorceror to get nearly any spell, EVAH

Schoedinger's Gnome did happen in an alternate dimension: don't you remember.
In one dimension the cat dies, in another parallel universe the cat lives.

marjan
2008-05-21, 11:10 AM
If it is possible for that to happen, then, in all likelyhood it has already happened during the campaign history (not campaign time, HISTORY, i.e., all that has gone before even though the characters weren't around). So, since by Schroedinger's Killer Gnome Miracle IS in the Sor/Wiz spell list, what stops ANY Wizard to scribe it in his spellbook with one oh his 2 bonus spells per level or a Sorcerer to get it as one of his spells known?

EDIT: And not just Miracle. That reading of Arcane Disciple would allow any Wizard or Sorceror to get nearly any spell, EVAH

That doesn't prove it's not working. That only shows that you are nice player and don't abuse, or that in your DM's world it didn't happen. Arguments stating this doesn't work because it leads to more cheese aren't really viable.


Another way to think about it would be in the case of an arcane/arcane hybred class, such as the Ultimate Magus. AD only adds the spells to the class spell list for a single class, and specifically calls out that if you have multiple arcane spell casting lists, that you only add them to one. So, if you take AD to add Luck to your wizard class spell list, it wouldn't appear on your sorcerer class spell list, which is undebatably different from your wizard spell list. It still wouldn't be on THE wizard class spell list, and therefore not an applicable target for Shadow Illusion.

That still doesn't prove anything. I believe that there is no such thing as Wizard/Sorceror spell list, but that this is just a way to put a spell on two very similar spell lists (one eing Wizard and the other Sorceror spell list). Reason for this is the several spells from Races of Dragon and Spell Compendium that are labeled clearly as either Sorceror or Wizard spell. Shadow Illusion also makes difference between those two.

So if you are wizard and take Arcane Disciple, it will add it to your class spell list, which in your case would be wizard. By substituting words your class in the description of the feat (which should be legal by RAW) you get wizard spell list. Then we take a look at the Shadow Illusion and it says: from wizard or sorceror spell list.

What bothers me with your argument is that you in one case make difference between class spell list and personal list (if that difference even exists in D&D) and in other case you don't.

PS: Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm) is one wizard only spell. Are you going to tell me that wizards cannot learn this spell because it isn't on the Wizard/Sorceror spell list.

Ramza00
2008-05-21, 12:48 PM
Whether Arcane Disciple Luck works depends on your DM, because it depends on how you view adding to your spell list.

A) Wizards can cast spells on the Wizard/Sorc List and the Wizard Only List.
B) Richard being a normal Wizard can only cast spells from part A
C) Thus Richard can't cast cleric, druid, etc spells.

-------
A) Wizards can cast spells on the Wizard/Sorc List and the Wizard Only List.
B) **** being a non normal Wizard takes the Arcane Disciple Luck feat.
C) Arcane Disciple Luck adds spells to ****'s spell list.

how it does so is not explained. Either **** gets the exception to the normal rules, he can now cast wizard spells, wizard/sorc spells, and arcane disciple. **** can now cast arcane disciple luck spells.

or

Arcane Disciple adds those spells to the wizard/sorc and wizard class list but only for ****. **** can now cast Arcane Disciple Luck spells.

-------

Thus it is up to the DM. Anybody that does computer programing knows that if

A= value X
B=A
B=B+1.

Can mean completely different things depending on the equal sign assigning a value or assigning a reference to a specific value stored in memory. Is it copying the information, or just pointing to the information and where it is stored.

Ramza00
2008-05-21, 12:52 PM
Personally while the Shadowcraft Mage Wizard builds are awesome, I am more partial to the Cloistered Cleric ones.

+The Cloistered Cleric version takes Spontaneous Domain Trickery or something else. (subbing out spontaneous cures/inflicts for domain spells)
+Said low level cleric uses divine metamagic heighten image spell to conjure an elemental monolith at say 10th level or so.
+Said low level cleric also had a contigency which he created with his image spells. The contigency effect is that when he summons an elemental monolith surround himself with a Resilient Sphere. (4th level core evoc spell, creates a forcefield, can be used offensively or defensively.)
+Next round due to residual metamagic he casts another spell.

Big elemental squashes normal cr 10 encounter.

Chronos
2008-05-21, 04:15 PM
The way I see it, Arcane Disciple adds the spells to your class's spell list, but only for you. So if Bob the Wizard takes Arcane Disciple: Luck, then Miracle is a wizard spell for Bob. And if Bob later takes levels in Shadowcraft Mage, then he can simulate a Miracle, because for him, it's a wizard spell. It's still not a wizard spell for Joe the Wizard, though.

marjan
2008-05-21, 07:13 PM
Thus it is up to the DM. Anybody that does computer programing knows that if

A= value X
B=A
B=B+1.

Can mean completely different things depending on the equal sign assigning a value or assigning a reference to a specific value stored in memory. Is it copying the information, or just pointing to the information and where it is stored.

And now we have another problem: You named two different variables with the same name. (A is wizard spell list mentioned in PHB, and B is wizard spell list mentioned in Arcane Disciple).


Personally while the Shadowcraft Mage Wizard builds are awesome, I am more partial to the Cloistered Cleric ones.

+The Cloistered Cleric version takes Spontaneous Domain Trickery or something else. (subbing out spontaneous cures/inflicts for domain spells)
+Said low level cleric uses divine metamagic heighten image spell to conjure an elemental monolith at say 10th level or so.
+Said low level cleric also had a contigency which he created with his image spells. The contigency effect is that when he summons an elemental monolith surround himself with a Resilient Sphere. (4th level core evoc spell, creates a forcefield, can be used offensively or defensively.)
+Next round due to residual metamagic he casts another spell.

Big elemental squashes normal cr 10 encounter.

Two things are unclear to me:
First: Why are you casting Resilient Sphere?
Second: If you are using Summon Elemental Monolith from CAr then you need to concentrate on it, so no casting another spell (not without Sonorous Hum at least).

monty
2008-05-21, 07:17 PM
I've found that a Killer Gnome is pretty viable even without Arcane Cheese Disciple. If you take Signature Spell, you can cast most of two schools spontaneously (good if you're specializing; now you can care even less about Evocation!) and if you're properly optimized can do it with lower level slots than regular wizards. Residual MAGIC (read the feat name) just makes it even better, since now every other spell you cast is first level (or a cantrip with the gnome substitution level).

Keld Denar
2008-05-21, 09:31 PM
Right, Mnemonic Enhancer is a wizard only spell, and Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover, and Arcane Fusion are sorcerer only. That's why it specifies Wizard OR sorcerer. So a ScM can cast either, regardless of whether his base class is wizard or sorcerer because it specifically says wizard OR sorcerer.

It does not make any mention of spells that aren't on the wizard or sorcerer spell list. That list is clearly defined, by the PHB and by every builder book that has ever come out. Its right there in ink, Wiz/Sor4 or whatever. If it doesn't say wizard, sorcerer, or wiz/sorc, IT ISN'T A WIZARD OR SORC SPELL. Its is a spell you are allowed to prepare in a wizard spell slot (or cast spontaneously if you are a sorc). The source doesn't make it a wizard spell.

How can you believe that there is no such thing as a wizard spell list, OR a sorcerer spell list? Its right there in the PHB. Most spells over lap, but some don't. The ScM ability specifically calls out that you can cast from either. It doesn't make any mention of being able to cast any other spells from any other lists that you just may happen to have access to. If someone wrote a PHB somewhere that said that Miracle was on either the wizard or sorcerer spell list, I would allow ScMs everywhere to cast it. Unfortunately, its not. Its on the cleric list, and the Luck domain list. THEREFORE IT IS NOT A WIZARD OR SORCERER SPELL.

Gawd....

marjan
2008-05-21, 10:13 PM
Right, Mnemonic Enhancer is a wizard only spell, and Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover, and Arcane Fusion are sorcerer only. That's why it specifies Wizard OR sorcerer. So a ScM can cast either, regardless of whether his base class is wizard or sorcerer because it specifically says wizard OR sorcerer.


OK, this is where we agree.



It does not make any mention of spells that aren't on the wizard or sorcerer spell list. That list is clearly defined, by the PHB and by every builder book that has ever come out. Its right there in ink, Wiz/Sor4 or whatever. If it doesn't say wizard, sorcerer, or wiz/sorc, IT ISN'T A WIZARD OR SORC SPELL. Its is a spell you are allowed to prepare in a wizard spell slot (or cast spontaneously if you are a sorc). The source doesn't make it a wizard spell.


Likewise, some spells from PHB that are only wizard spells (clearly stated in their description) appear on the list of spells for some non-core domains. By your reasoning since the spell doesn't include that in its description it belongs to that domain in PHB and there is no other description of that spell that says otherwise you are not able to cast that spell as cleric even if you have access to that domain.



How can you believe that there is no such thing as a wizard spell list, OR a sorcerer spell list?

I didn't say that there are no such thing as wizard or sorceror spell list, what I said was: There is no such thing as a Wizard/Sorceror spell list. That is just a way to define two different spell lists that share many spells in common.



The ScM ability specifically calls out that you can cast from either. It doesn't make any mention of being able to cast any other spells from any other lists that you just may happen to have access to.


Now if you read the text you qouted from Arcane Disciple, you will notice that it says it adds spells from domain list to your class spell list. Since there is no such thing as your class spell list in D&D, I think the intention was that you substitute the words your class with the actual name of the class, like in a case of wizard it should be wizard spell list. Basic mathematics. You have two sets A and B, you now add elements of set B to set A and now the set A consists of elements from both sets A and B. As simple as that, and it is the exact thing that a feat does (if you want to prove that Arcane Disciple is not working, please prove that feat doesn't do this).



Gawd....

Gawd?

Keld Denar
2008-05-21, 10:43 PM
Non-core domains printed after the PHB that include wizard spells are fine, because new source replaces/modifies older sources. I don't remember any new sources that add Miracle to the wizard spell list however. Still not a valid trick.

Also, your spell list is NOT equal to the wizard or sorcerer spell list, unless you have EVERY single spell ever printed in your library of Boccobs Blessed Books. Your spell list is your list of spells known or scribed which you can prepare into the slots designated by the class that grants you access to the spells. The wizard spell list is a list of every single wizard spell, ditto with the sorc spell list. Class spell list is denoted in the case where you have multiple arcane caster classes with different lists. Arcane Disciple only adds the spells to the class spell list of the class you select it for, not any other arcane casting class lists. If you were a wizard/sorcerer/UM, you'd have 2 different arcane class spell lists, one of wizard spells, and one of sorcerer spells. You can prep spells on your wizard's spell list into your wizard's spell slots, and spontaneously cast sorcerer spells from your sorcerer's list of spells known. If you take Arcane Disciple, and you add the spells therein to your wizard's spell list, you can prep the spells in your wizard spell slots as notated in the Arcane Disciple feat. They are NOT wizard spells though. They are arcane spells that you can prep into your wizard spell slots with certain restrictions.

Its a very important distinction, albeit one that seldom comes up for single class casters, but regardlessly very important. They have to call it out though, for casters with multiple caster lists, such as Mystic Theurges and Ultimate Magi.

And I said "Gawd" because I was drinking earlier. Seemed like a good idea at the time....

Griffin131
2008-05-22, 05:58 AM
Also, your spell list is NOT equal to the wizard or sorcerer spell list, unless you have EVERY single spell ever printed in your library of Boccobs Blessed Books. Your spell list is your list of spells known or scribed which you can prepare into the slots designated by the class that grants you access to the spells. The wizard spell list is a list of every single wizard spell, ditto with the sorc spell list.
Wrong. Spell list != Spells Known.

marjan
2008-05-22, 08:54 AM
Non-core domains printed after the PHB that include wizard spells are fine, because new source replaces/modifies older sources. I don't remember any new sources that add Miracle to the wizard spell list however. Still not a valid trick.


My point exactly. Just because there is no Miracle on wizard spell list doesn't mean it can be added through later sources.



Also, your spell list is NOT equal to the wizard or sorcerer spell list, unless you have EVERY single spell ever printed in your library of Boccobs Blessed Books. Your spell list is your list of spells known or scribed which you can prepare into the slots designated by the class that grants you access to the spells. The wizard spell list is a list of every single wizard spell, ditto with the sorc spell list. Class spell list is denoted in the case where you have multiple arcane caster classes with different lists. Arcane Disciple only adds the spells to the class spell list of the class you select it for, not any other arcane casting class lists. If you were a wizard/sorcerer/UM, you'd have 2 different arcane class spell lists, one of wizard spells, and one of sorcerer spells. You can prep spells on your wizard's spell list into your wizard's spell slots, and spontaneously cast sorcerer spells from your sorcerer's list of spells known. If you take Arcane Disciple, and you add the spells therein to your wizard's spell list, you can prep the spells in your wizard spell slots as notated in the Arcane Disciple feat. They are NOT wizard spells though. They are arcane spells that you can prep into your wizard spell slots with certain restrictions.


As has been said class spell list and list of spells known are different thing.



And I said "Gawd" because I was drinking earlier. Seemed like a good idea at the time....

Actually what I meant was: What does "Gawd" mean?:smallsmile:

Chronos
2008-05-22, 10:35 AM
I don't remember any new sources that add Miracle to the wizard spell list however.I do. It's called "Arcane Disciple".