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Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-20, 03:37 AM
A little personal background:

I played magic for years when I was in grade school and I loved it, for the most part. I loved the five-color scheme, I loved building decks and testing them against other players and I even loved one of the M:tG novels (the Brothers’ War). One thing that I didn’t like about the game was that I often couldn’t get my hands on the cards that I really wanted; sometimes it was because I just didn’t get lucky enough when buying booster packs, but usually it was simply because the designers hadn’t come up with the cards I wanted. Another thing that I didn’t like was that in order to “keep up” with the competition, I had to continually buy more cards because each set was slightly better than the last one. It was hard enough finding the money to buy a booster pack every few weeks in my working class household, and when I finally started making my own money I decided that “keeping up” just wasn’t worth the money. For a while I played every now and then with my close friends but by the time I went to college, I had mostly sold my cards off for clothing money and had stopped playing altogether. So now I’m 24 and I have an itch to play again, but I don’t want to depend on WotC to print the cards that I want and I don’t want to pay for tiny pieces of printed paper (or digital recreations of tiny pieces of printed paper) anymore. So without further ado I present to you Magic: the Sandbox!

Magic: the Sandbox’s mission statement:

To form a community for the purpose of composing a set of definitive rules for rendering “Sandbox” cards. These cards will serve several purposes:
-Ensure simplicity. A player new to Magic: the Sandbox should be able to render and play with their own cards without repeatedly referring to complicated instructions or rule gurus. “System mastery” is to be avoided; players should not be able to gain advantages by discovering obscure or inconsistent loopholes within the rules. Optimally, card creation will be a creative warm-up exercise to playing the game itself.
-Ensure consistency and balance. Although card creation will inevitably involve a certain degree of min/maxing for most of us, there should be no clearly “asmz pwnz a11 combos!!!” Optimally, sandbox cards will all be balanced against each other no matter how experienced their creator is.
-Maintain a comprehensive set of rules that expands as players demand. One-upsmanship is to be avoided; cards should not get better or more efficient over time, so no player will feel the need to “keep up” in order to keep competitive.

These are the Magic: the Sandbox rules as they stand now. Rule expansion requests, constructive criticism and general comments are welcome!

Designing Your Deck

Step 1: For each color which you plan to include in your deck, make a note of that color’s Inherent Creature Abilities.
Black: Protection from Green, Protection from White, Regeneration, Rogue, Swamphome, Swampwalk
Blue: Flying, Islandhome, Islandwalk, Protection from Green, Protection from Red, Twiddle
Green: Foresthome, Forestwalk, Protection from Black, Protection from Blue, Trample, Vigilance
Red: Aggressor, Haste, Mountainhome, Mountainwalk, Protection from Blue, Protection from White
White: Healer, Plainshome, Plainswalk, Protector, Protection from Black, Protection from Red.

Step 2: For each color which you plan to include in your deck, make a note of that color’s Inherent Instant/Sorcery Abilities.
Black: Slay, Drain Life
Blue: Counter Spell, Research Library
Green: Rust Artifact, Giant Growth
Red: Volcanoe Eruption, Fireball
White: Disenchant, Heal

Step 3: For each color which you plan to include in your deck, make a note of that color’s Inherent Aura/Equipment Abilities.
Black: Protection from Green, Protection from White, Regeneration, Rogue, Swamphome, Swampwalk
Blue: Flying, Islandhome, Islandwalk, Protection from Green, Protection from Red, Twiddle
Green: Foresthome, Forestwalk, Protection from Black, Protection from Blue, Trample, Vigilance
Red: Aggressor, Haste, Mountainhome, Mountainwalk, Protection from Blue, Protection from White
White: Healer, Plainshome, Plainswalk, Protector, Protection from Black, Protection from Red.

Step 4: For each color which you plan to include in your deck, make a note of that color’s Inherent Enchantment/Artifact Abilities.
Black: Protection from Green, Protection from White, Regeneration, Rogue, Swamphome, Swampwalk
Blue: Flying, Islandhome, Islandwalk, Protection from Green, Protection from Red, Twiddle
Green: Foresthome, Forestwalk, Protection from Black, Protection from Blue, Trample, Vigilance
Red: Aggressor, Haste, Mountainhome, Mountainwalk, Protection from Blue, Protection from White
White: Healer, Plainshome, Plainswalk, Protector, Protection from Black, Protection from Red.

Step 5: Remember the following rules:
No more than four cards may be exactly alike per deck. (Changing a card’s name, creature type or flavor text does not make it different for this purpose.)
A deck may contain no more than thirty-six common cards.
A deck may contain no more than twelve uncommon cards.
A deck may contain no more than eight rare cards.
A deck may contain no more than four legendary cards.


Designing a Creature Card

Step 1: Assign the card’s Power and Toughness. The card’s base mana cost depends on its combined power and toughness:
Mana Combined Power
Cost and Toughness
1 4
2 5
3 6
+1 +2

Step 2: For each color which you intend to include in your deck, choose two Bonus Creature Abilities. Artifact counts as a color for this purpose.

Step 3: Assign the card’s abilities, if any. Assigning an Inherent Creature Ability or a Bonus Creature Ability to a card of the appropriate color modifies the card’s casting cost as noted below. Assigning other creature abilities modifies the card’s casting cost as noted below, and raises the card’s casting cost by 1 mana per creature ability. Inherent and Bonus Creature Abilities may be substituted in place of power and toughness on a +1 Mana Cost per 2 combined Power and Toughness basis.

Aggressor (+1 Mana Cost)
Tap 1 mana: this creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

Attacker (-1 Mana Cost)
This creature cannot block.

Deathtouch (+2 Mana Cost)
When this creature deals damage to a creature, that creature is destroyed.

Defender (-1 Mana Cost)
This creature cannot attack.

Double Strike (+2 Mana Cost)
This ability is similar to First Strike, except that it also allows a creature to deal damage again when creatures normally deal damage.

Eldritch (+1 Mana Cost)
Tap this creature: add 1 mana to your mana pool.

Fear (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature may only be blocked by creatures of its own color and artifact creatures.

First Strike (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature deals damage before other creatures which don’t have first strike.

Flash (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature can be played any time you could play an instant.

Flying (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature can only be blocked by flying creatures.

Haste (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature is unaffected by summoning sickness.

Healer (+1 Mana Cost)
Tap 1 mana and tap this creature: gain 1 life or prevent 1 damage to target creature or player.

Landhome (-1 Mana Cost)
If at any time you do not control at least one land of a single color, bury this creature.

Landwalk (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature is unblockable so long as its target player has at least one land of a single color.

Lifelink (+2 Mana Cost)
Whenever this creature deals damage, its controller gains that much life.

Protection (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature takes no damage from sources of, cannot be targeted by effects of, and cannot be blocked by creatures of a single color.

Protector (+1 Mana Cost)
Tap 1 mana: this creature gets +0/+1 until end of turn.

Rogue (+1 Mana Cost)
Tap 1 mana and tap this creature: Deal 1 damage to target creature or player.

Shroud (+1 Mana Cost)
This creature cannot be the target of spells or abilities, including its controller’s.

Twiddle (+1 Mana Cost)
Tap 1 mana and tap this creature: Tap target creature.

Vigilance (+1 Mana Cost)
Attacking does not cause this creature to tap.


Designing an Instant or Sorcery Card

Step 1: Assign the card’s abilities. Assigning an Inherent Instant/Sorcery Ability or a Bonus Instant/Sorcery Ability modifies the card’s casting cost as noted below. Assigning other instant/sorcery abilities modifies the card’s casting cost as noted below, and raises the card’s casting cost by 1 mana per instant/sorcery ability.

Counter Spell (Mana Cost 3)
This Instant counters the target spell.

Disenchant (Mana Cost 2)
This Instant destroys the target enchantment.

Drain Life
This Sorcery deals damage to the target player while simultaneously giving another target player an equal amount of life. How much damage it deals and life it gives depends on its mana cost:
Mana Damage Dealt
Cost and Life Given
1 + X X
1 3
2 5
3 6
+1 +1

Fireball
This Instant deals damage to the target creature or player. How much damage it deals depends on its mana cost:
Mana Damage
Cost Dealt
1 + X X
1 3
2 5
3 6
+1 +1

Giant Growth
This Instant increases the power and toughness of the target creature until the end of your turn. How much power and toughness it increases depends on its mana cost:
Mana Damage
Cost Dealt
1 + X X
1 3
2 5
3 6
+1 +1

Heal
This Instant gives the target player a number of life or prevents a number of damage to the target creature or player. How much life it gives or damage it prevents depends on its mana cost:
Mana Life Given or
Cost Damage Prevented
1 + X X
1 3
2 5
3 6
+1 +1

Research Library
This Sorcery allows you to look through the top cards of your library and then replace them in any order you wish. You may also place any and all cards you look through at the bottom of your library. How many cards you can look through depends on its mana cost:
Mana Cards
Cost Perused
1 + X X
1 3
2 5
3 6
+1 +1

Rust Artifact (Mana Cost 2)
This Instant destroys the target artifact.

Slay (Mana Cost 3)
This Instant destroys the target non-artifact creature.

Volcanoe Eruption (Mana Cost 2)
This Instant destroys the target land.


Designing an Aura Enchantment or Equipment Artifact Card

Step 1: Assign the card’s bonus Power and Toughness, if any. The card’s base mana cost depends on its combined power and toughness:
Mana Combined Power
Cost and Toughness
1 4
2 5
3 6
+1 +2

Step 2: For each color which you intend to include in your deck, choose two Bonus Aura/Equip Abilities. These abilities are drawn from the list of creature abilities above. Artifact counts as a color for this purpose.

Step 3: Assign the card’s abilities, if any. Assigning an Inherent Aura/Equip Ability or a Bonus Aura/Equip Ability to a card of the appropriate color modifies the card’s casting cost as noted above. Assigning other aura/equip abilities modifies the card’s casting cost as noted above, and raises the card’s casting cost by 1 mana per aura/equip ability. Inherent and Bonus Aura/Equip Abilities may be substituted in place of power and toughness on a +1 Mana Cost per 2 combined Power and Toughness basis.


Designing an Enchantment or Artifact Card

Step 1: For each color which you intend to include in your deck, choose two Bonus Enchantment/Artifact Abilities. These abilities are drawn from the list of creature abilities above. Artifact counts as a color for this purpose.

Step 2: Assign the card’s abilities, if any. Assigning an Inherent Enchantment/Artifact Ability or a Bonus Enchantment/Artifact Ability to a card of the appropriate color modifies the card’s casting cost as noted above. Assigning other enchantment/artifact abilities modifies the card’s casting cost as noted above, and raises the card’s casting cost by 1 mana per enchantment/artifact ability.

Counter Spell (Mana Cost 6)
This card counters the target spell. To activate this ability, 6 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Disenchant (Mana Cost 4)
This Instant destroys the target enchantment. To activate this ability, 4 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Drain Life (Mana Cost 1)
This card deals 1 damage to target player and gives target player 1 life. To activate this ability, 1 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped. This ability can only be used as a sorcery.

Fireball (Mana Cost 1)
This card deals 1 damage to target creature or player. To activate this ability, 1 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Giant Growth (Mana Cost 1)
This card increases the power and toughness of a target creature until the end of your turn. To activate this ability, 1 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Heal (Mana Cost 1)
This card prevents 1 damage to target creature or player or gives target player 1 life. To activate this ability, 1 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Research Library (Mana Cost 1)
This card allows you to look at the top card of your library and then replace it on the top or bottom of your library. To activate this ability, 1 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Rust Artifact (Mana Cost 4)
This card destroys the target artifact. To activate this ability, 4 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Slay (Mana Cost 6)
This card destroys the target non-artifact creature. To activate this ability, 6 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.

Volcanoe Eruption (Mana Cost 4)
This card destroys the target land. To activate this ability, 4 mana must be spent and this card must be tapped.


Costing Artifact and Gold Cards

Artifact cards cost 1 mana more than normal. Gold cards cost 1 mana less than normal per color which composes the card. Gold cards have a minimum mana cost of 1 mana of each color that composes the card.


Costing Uncommon, Rare and Legendary Cards

A legendary card costs 3 less mana than normal, a rare card costs 2 mana less than normal and an uncommon card costs 1 mana less than normal. Artifact cards have a minimum casting cost of 0 mana. Single-color cards have a minimum casting cost of 1 mana. Gold cards have a minimum mana cost of 1 mana of each color that composes the card.

Drascin
2008-05-20, 07:12 AM
Well, I kinda already have a 180-card Disgaea set done and completed (save for a few pictures) in Magic Set Editor, plus a lot random cards and ideas, so it's obvious I find designing cards rather fun :smalltongue:. So I guess I'd be in.

Wraith
2008-05-20, 09:44 AM
As new as I am to the hobby, I'd very much like to take part too. If nothing else, I might at least learn something :smallsmile:

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-20, 02:07 PM
Sweet, two new recruits already!


Well, I kinda already have a 180-card Disgaea set done and completed (save for a few pictures) in Magic Set Editor, plus a lot random cards and ideas, so it's obvious I find designing cards rather fun :smalltongue:. So I guess I'd be in.

Do you have your Set Editor on a Mac or PC? When I try to use my Set Editor on my Mac it opens BitTorrent but then tells me that it has no valid torrent file. Arrggh!

TS

Timarvay
2008-05-20, 02:46 PM
Sounds like fun. I'm in.

Reptilius
2008-05-20, 02:58 PM
Neat! I've often though "if only there was a card that..." Interested.

Drascin
2008-05-20, 03:14 PM
Do you have your Set Editor on a Mac or PC? When I try to use my Set Editor on my Mac it opens BitTorrent but then tells me that it has no valid torrent file. Arrggh!

TS

PC here, Windows XP for more details. And it works just fine.

Ranis
2008-05-20, 07:02 PM
Somewhere along the line, it's going to need approval from Wizards, or it's going to be illegal.

And we all know how anal Wizards can be about that whole thing. So I'd just play the game the way it was meant to be played, and if you can't afford the hobby, find a new one.

UglyPanda
2008-05-20, 07:18 PM
You could just play with proxies. You couldn't play in tournaments, but what's the cost of ink and paper compared to a dozen rares?

Reptilius
2008-05-20, 08:18 PM
Somewhere along the line, it's going to need approval from Wizards, or it's going to be illegal.

And we all know how anal Wizards can be about that whole thing. So I'd just play the game the way it was meant to be played, and if you can't afford the hobby, find a new one.

Well, this isn't some big underground league playing with counterfeits or cards they made up. It's 5 (6? 7?) people who are appreciating the game in their own way. It's not plagiarism or counterfeiting (at least I hope not :smalleek:).

Countless people download illegal files, but no one, even the legal system, seems to care that much anymore (for good or for ill).

If WotC issues something close to what we make, then I'd opt out. But only then.

Drascin
2008-05-21, 12:03 AM
Somewhere along the line, it's going to need approval from Wizards, or it's going to be illegal.

And we all know how anal Wizards can be about that whole thing. So I'd just play the game the way it was meant to be played, and if you can't afford the hobby, find a new one.

Given they kind of have a subforum in their own boards that was explicitly created for people to desing their own cards, I doubt they're going to be that anal about a couple dozen fan-designed cards, honestly. It's not like we're going to sell them or anything

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-21, 01:53 AM
Apparently Magic Set Editor is PC only. *sigh*

The first post has been edited to reflect the M:tS rules I've written so far.

TS

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-22, 01:42 AM
Bump. :smallbiggrin:

Reptilius
2008-05-22, 06:43 PM
Well, the card creation rules seem a little too narrow, but the mechanics and current abilities seem pretty good.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-22, 06:53 PM
Narrow as in 'not enough abilities available to each color per deck', or narrow in some other way? Be specific please.

TS

Reptilius
2008-05-22, 07:31 PM
The current abilities are well-distributed. However, the list seems to limit the creation of more unique spells, keywords, and abilities (like Primal Forcemage (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=110508), of the top of my head). Also, some traditional staples are missing (discards? milling?). Then again, I always wanted an Index that dealt damage.

Minor thing: Abilities like 'rogue' and 'healer' don't usually require mana.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-22, 11:32 PM
The current abilities are well-distributed. However, the list seems to limit the creation of more unique spells, keywords, and abilities (like Primal Forcemage (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=110508), of the top of my head). Also, some traditional staples are missing (discards? milling?). Then again, I always wanted an Index that dealt damage.
Ah, yes the list of abilities is far from complete. This is what I need you guys' help with; filling out the lists. I haven't bought cards in years so I don't even know what a lot of abilities are, like discards and milling.


Minor thing: Abilities like 'rogue' and 'healer' don't usually require mana.
I figured it was better to make the abilities a little cheaper for casting cost and force the controllers to use something to activate the ability. If others think it wasn't a necessary change, I'll make it a +2 casting cost ability and get rid of the need to tap mana to use the abilities.

TS

Reptilius
2008-05-23, 02:14 PM
Ah, yes the list of abilities is far from complete. This is what I need you guys' help with; filling out the lists. I haven't bought cards in years so I don't even know what a lot of abilities are, like discards and milling.

TS

Discards are pretty obvious: play spell/use ability: opponent discards some cards. Been around practically forever

Milling: Comes from the Millstone (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=1126). Refers to any abilities or spells that remove cards from the top of the library. Most milling effects are in blue or black.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-23, 08:44 PM
Ah, noted.

I'm looking over the list of abilities at Wizards.com and I don't know quite what to think of Bushido and Flanking. Are there any situations where it is better for a creature to get +1/+1 in a fight or impose a -1/-1 rather than just have their base P/T one higher? Or are Bushido and Flanking really just "disability" abilities?

TS

Neftren
2008-05-23, 08:52 PM
Ah, noted.

I'm looking over the list of abilities at Wizards.com and I don't know quite what to think of Bushido and Flanking. Are there any situations where it is better for a creature to get +1/+1 in a fight or impose a -1/-1 rather than just have their base P/T one higher? Or are Bushido and Flanking really just "disability" abilities?

TS

Well, there are cards out there that read: "Destroy Target Creature with Power Greater than X". It also makes them more vulnerable to burn spells.

Flanking is actually quite useful as a multi-block deterrent.

Twin2
2008-05-23, 09:14 PM
Long time player myself it seems like the thread could serve as a general thread as well as advice, stories, critiques, and so forth.

Vavaara
2008-05-24, 01:26 AM
I'm loving this concept. I've actually been working on a western-themed set myself.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-24, 03:07 AM
Well, there are cards out there that read: "Destroy Target Creature with Power Greater than X". It also makes them more vulnerable to burn spells.

Flanking is actually quite useful as a multi-block deterrent.
Ah, that's the kind of thinking I'm looking for!


Long time player myself it seems like the thread could serve as a general thread as well as advice, stories, critiques, and so forth.
By all means, any and all of those are welcome!


I'm loving this concept. I've actually been working on a western-themed set myself.
As in, Clint Eastwood western? Sounds interesting.

TS

Twin2
2008-05-24, 10:22 AM
Well then I figure I'll see if any of you'd do anything different then what my brother and I ended up with for last nights two headed giant sealed fnm. Here's the pool we pulled with seven packs of shadowmoor.


White
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Apothecary Initiate
1 Barrenton Medic
1 Windbrisk Raptor
1 Last Breath
1 Rune-Cervin Rider
1 Goldenglow Moth
3 Niveous Wisps
1 Woeleecher

White/Blue
1 Thoughtweft Gambit
2 Zealous Gaurdian
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Somnomancer

Blue
1 Drowner Initiate
1 Briarberry Cohort
1 Prismwake Merrow
2 Kinscaer Harpoonist
1 Whimwader
1 Merrow Wavebreakers

Blue/Black
1 Torpor Dust
1 Dream Salvage
1 Gravelgill Duo
1 Wasp Lancer

Black
1 Ashenmoor Cohort
2 Torture
1 Blowfly Infestation
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Hollowsage
1 Cinderhaze Wretch
2 Cinderbones
1 Sickle Ripper
2 Loch Korrigan

Black/Red
1 Fists of the Demigod
1 Ashenmoor Liege
1 Sootstoke Kindler
1 Poison the Well
1 Ashenmoor Gouger
1 Scar
1 Manaforge Cinder
1 Cultbrand Cinger
1 Traitor's Roar
1 Sootwalkers

Red
1 Intimidator Initiate
2 Ember Gale
1 Mudbrawler Cohort
2 Burn Trail
1 Slinking Giant
1 Blistering Dieflyn
1 Crimson Wisps
1 Wild Swing
1 Knollspine Invocation Red/Green
1 Scuzzback Scrapper
1 Wort, the Raidmother
2 Gutteral Response
1 Giantbaiting
1 Deus of Calamity
1 Mudbrawler Raiders
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Tattermunge Duo
2 Loamdragger Giant

Green
1 Howl of the Night Pack
1 Foxfire Oak
2 Viridescent Wisps
2 Presence of Gond
3 Farhaven Elf
1 Nurturer Initiate
2 Crabapple Cohort

Green/White
1 Gloomwidow
1 Elvish Hexhunter
1 Dawnglow Infusion
1 Medicine Runner
1 Shield of the Oversoul
1 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
1 Old Ghastbark
1 Mercy Killing
1 Seedcradle Witch
1 Safehold Elite
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Artifacts/Lands
1 Blight Sickle
1 Illuminated Folio
1 Pili-Pala
1 Elsewhere Flask
1 Tatterkite
1 Lurebound Scarecrow
1 Lockjaw Snapper
2 Scuttlemut
1 Chainbreaker
1 Mistveil Plains

Gatherer for those who want to know what the cards are. (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/index.aspx?)

Here's what my brother and I built

My brother's deck

Lands
10 Forests
7 Plains
Creatures
1 Elvish Hexhunter
1 Seedcradle Witch
1 Somnomancer
1 Medicine Runner
1 Safehold Elite
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Scuttlemutt
1 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
1 Gloomwidow
2 Farhaven Elf
1 Rune-Cervin Rider
1 Mudbrawler Raiders
1 Deus of Calamity
1 Crabapple Cohort
1 Windbrisk Raptor
Spells
1 Niveous Wisps
1 Last Breath
1 Elsewhere Flask
1 Mercy Killing
1 Shield of the Oversoul
1 Thoughtweft Gambit
1 Howl of the Night Pack

My deck

Lands
9 Mountains
8 Swamps

Creatures
1 Sootstoke Kindler
1 Sickle Ripper
1 Mudbrawler Cohort
1 Pila-Pala
1 Scuttlemutt
1 Tatterkite
1 Tattermunge Duo
1 Cinderbones
1 Ashenmoor Gouger
1 Sulking Giant
1 Loch Korrigan
1 Sootwalkers
1 Ashenmoor Liege
1 Cultbrand Cinder
1 Wort, the Raidmother
Spells
1 Scar
1 Torture
1 Fists of the Demigod
1 Torpor Dust
1 Knollspine Invocation
2 Burn Trail

We ended up 2-1 in the event taking second overall due to wonky tiebreakers (there were four 2-1's, and no 3-0/2-0-1).

Chronos
2008-05-24, 11:02 AM
A couple things I noticed:

First, unless the power creep has gone way beyond what I ever expected, since I stopped playing, or base power/toughness is way underpriced. When I was playing, 2 mana was a bargain for a 2/2 creature, and nobody dreamed of a 3/1 creature for only 2 mana, but your guidelines say it should only cost 1. Also, power and toughness are not, in general, worth the same amount, and neither is linear: A 7/1 creature would be much more valuable than a 0/8, for instance, and a toughness of 4 is more than 4/3 times as much as a toughness of 3, since it can't be killed by a Lightning Bolt. This becomes even more so when you also have other abilities in play: A 7/1 creature with First Strike is going to be essentially unkillable in combat, despite its low toughness.

Second, I didn't see Banding on the list for white's distinctive abilities. I think that's about the most color-distinctive ability in the game: Last I knew, there was one red creature with Banding, one green, two or three artifacts, and about 50 white creatures.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-25, 10:55 AM
First, unless the power creep has gone way beyond what I ever expected, since I stopped playing, or base power/toughness is way underpriced. When I was playing, 2 mana was a bargain for a 2/2 creature, and nobody dreamed of a 3/1 creature for only 2 mana, but your guidelines say it should only cost 1.
Take a look at creatures from the newer expansions; nowadays 2 mana for a 2/2 isn't even worth the trouble. Anyway I originally intended to make P/T an even 1 mana for +1/+1 trade but I figured cheap creatures needed more efficiency to be competitive. I could be wrong though.



Also, power and toughness are not, in general, worth the same amount, and neither is linear: A 7/1 creature would be much more valuable than a 0/8, for instance, and a toughness of 4 is more than 4/3 times as much as a toughness of 3, since it can't be killed by a Lightning Bolt. This becomes even more so when you also have other abilities in play: A 7/1 creature with First Strike is going to be essentially unkillable in combat, despite its low toughness.
I never thought of power or toughness as being more important than the other, but you may be right. Maybe I should add a rule that says "power and toughness can't be more than 1 apart"? And if a player wants more difference than that, they can bypass the rule by adding 1 to the creature's mana cost.



Second, I didn't see Banding on the list for white's distinctive abilities. I think that's about the most color-distinctive ability in the game: Last I knew, there was one red creature with Banding, one green, two or three artifacts, and about 50 white creatures.
If I add another inherent white ability, I want to add one to each of the other colors too. And I don't want the inherent ability lists to get too bloated, otherwise nobody will have need for aura enchantments, equipment or artifact creatures.

TS

Vavaara
2008-05-27, 06:09 PM
As in, Clint Eastwood western? Sounds interesting.

TS

More of a spaghetti western, with themes from Red Dead Revolver, Deadlands, and some other sources I can't recall right now. I've got 4/5 of the colors thought out completely in regards to concept, but I am having a load of trouble with Green. Here's my spread (which may seem a tad cliched)

Black: Outlaws
Blue: Gunslingers
White: Pilgrims (migrants)
Red: Native Americans
Green: Possibly Ranchers?

Any suggestions for the other spreads would be helpful, as they are not set in stone.

KBF
2008-05-27, 07:56 PM
Any suggestions for the other spreads would be helpful, as they are not set in stone.

Remember to give whites (migrants) some offensive ability, or a one color white deck will fall fast.

Twin2
2008-05-27, 09:18 PM
Any suggestions for the other spreads would be helpful, as they are not set in stone.
Mine would look something like this.

Black: Criminals/outlaws/politicians (can't forget them)
Blue: Politicians, law enforcement, inventors
White: Law enforcement, politicians, civilians
Red: Natives, inventors, animals
Green: Natives, animals, civilians
Colorless: Inventions, vehicles, equipment, ect

Other things could be added. Also if it's going to be wild west I'd say it's best eschew using any historical figures/places as there's potential to do some crazy things with it.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-28, 08:39 AM
Any suggestions for the other spreads would be helpful, as they are not set in stone.

Hm, that's tough. Let me think out loud...

Black: Crooked polititians and law enforcers, greedy bankmen
Blue: Law enforcers, politicians, bankmen
White: Missionaries, priests, honest citizens
Red: Vengeful Indians
Green: "turn the other cheek" Indians

Depending on their attitude, gunslingers would fall into black, blue or white I think. Then again, is a gunslinger just someone quick with their pistols?

TS

Vavaara
2008-05-28, 10:55 PM
Here's a quick card I threw together in Magic Set Editor. It may not be polished, but I like it considering it took me 5-10 minutes:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d182/Rasenga/Clementine.jpg

I try to use the names (at least, I assume they are) of the artists who made the pictures I use when typing in the artist tag. Makes it seem a little more authentic to me. I also went with the Future theme because it felt right for a western set, what with spiderwebs and rust and cool enviro effects right on the cards.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-29, 12:48 PM
Here's a quick card I threw together in Magic Set Editor.

She looks good, but she has two PT; one 3/3 and one 1/2. Or am I misreading? Anyway, I think the classic white card skin would be great in a western set.

TS

Twin2
2008-05-29, 12:50 PM
She looks good, but she has two PT; one 3/3 and one 1/2. Or am I misreading? Anyway, I think the classic white card skin would be great in a western set.

TS

I believe the 3/3 is from the card base as if it were that it'd be pretty ridiculous of a card.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-05-29, 04:44 PM
What's the card base? 3/3 for three mana is about right I think.

TS

Vavaara
2008-06-01, 10:43 PM
She looks good, but she has two PT; one 3/3 and one 1/2. Or am I misreading?
TS

The 1/2 is the number of the card in the set as done by M.S.E. The first number is the number it is in the set, and the second is how many cards there are in the set. I believe regular cards have them as well, though i'd have to check to be entirely sure.

I was debating making her worth 4X mana, but that seemed a bit excessive. As it stands, she's a legendary with a nice coming-into play ability if you have the mana for it, and the ability to take out minor threats. Now, if you had enough mana and an ability that continually bounced her back to your hand...

Zovc
2008-06-02, 12:00 AM
I like this idea, however, the system isn't versatile enough.

I'd like to see accommodation for the creation of abilities, although that would be very hard to do, I know.

As far as that legend goes, that's somewhat powerful, I'd say it's okay for a legend, though.

BBB for a 3/3 is the risky part, really. Green is supposed to be the only color capable of getting balanced creatures (3 for a 3/3), from my understanding.

Also, you can re-word the text to say, "When Clementine comes into play, it deals X damage to target player." If a player opts to pay 0 for X, X=0 and target player takes 0 damage.

Reptilius
2008-06-02, 02:07 PM
Well, here's the first card from my set.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7997/veragibbswarmagecaptainbu3.jpg

As you can see, charge counters are extremely important, and Soldiers, Wizards, and Soldier Wizards are significant tribes.

Vavaara
2008-06-02, 05:52 PM
I'm planning on going the distance with Gunsmoke, full 3-part block + storyline and everything. Clementine was just an example I threw up for fun, though she'll most likely be changed when I sit down and finish the first part.

Steampunk-esque things are currently being added, along with lands and special lands. Here's my spread on lands:

Black: Cemeteries, Saloons, Cathouses, etc.
White: Churches, Sheriff's offices
Green: Watering holes, mountain forests
Red: Misc. Mines, Canyons
Blue: Prairies (wide open skies?)

The only special land I can think of right now is Boot Hill :smallsigh:

Twin2
2008-06-05, 12:47 AM
Managed a 3-0-1 tonight with a nice u/b draft deck.


Lands
9 Islands
8 Swamps

Creatures
1 Inkfathom Infiltrator
1 Briarberry Cohort
1 Inkfathom Witch
1 Chainbreaker
1 Thistledown Duo
1 Gravelgill Duo
1 Leech Bonder
1 Barrenton Cragtreads
1 Wanderbrine Rootcutters
1 Loch Korrigan
1 Glamer Spinners
1 Merrow Wavebreakers
1 Cultbrand Cinder
1 Wicker Warcrawler

Spells
1 Disturbing Plot
1 Fate Transfer
2 Turn to Mist
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 River's Grasp
1 Aethertow
1 Gloomlance

Sideboard
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Sootwalkers
1 Plumeveil
2 Nuturer Initiate
1 Niveous Wisps
2 Inquisitor's Snare
1 Foxfire Oak
3 Whimwader
1 Elvish Hexhunter
1 Intimidator Initiate
1 Medicine Runner
1 Tattermunge Duo
1 Last Breath
1 Boggart Arsonists
1 Safehold Duo
1 Horde of Boggarts
1 Reknit
1 Sinking Feeling

Pack one pick one I ended up making a decision I knew was wrong, but in the end worked out for the best. I had opened up a pack with a Reaper King, foil Wort, the Raidmother, Glamer Spinners, and Firespout staring back at me. I knew in my gut that firespout was the correct pick, but I had the nagging feeling that the moment I took it that I'd be in a fight for those colors. I ended up taking the spinners hoping u/x would materialize, and I'd not regret passing up on the spout. Luckily u/b did as my brother on my right happily moved into r/g.

The deck seemed fine, as it sported lots of tricks which allowed me to survive a u/w deck with oona (inkfathom witch and counters = one dead oona), a r/b deck with double corrupt/jaws of stone, a r/g deck with a playset of puncture bolts/fat (my brother). I drew in the final round, we played it out for fun, and he destroyed me with what I can only say was the nuts reaper king deck (double kings, enough fixing, and an oracle of nectars for good measure).

Vavaara
2008-06-06, 11:13 PM
Still working on Gunsmoke, and resurecting deck types that haven't been viable in some of the newer blocks. White Weenie FTW!

Tequila Sunrise
2008-06-07, 01:09 PM
I like this idea, however, the system isn't versatile enough.

I'd like to see accommodation for the creation of abilities, although that would be very hard to do, I know.

The only way to allow the creation of new abilities, that I can think of, is group consensus. If you have a better idea, I'm all ears. :smallsmile:

TS