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SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 01:41 PM
(Taken from the Marshal Diplomancy Thread)

The Challenge: The highest DC (pre-epic) of Diplomacy is 60, turning someone who is Hostile to someone that is Helpful in a single round. What is the earliest a PC could reach a DC 60 Diplomacy Check by rolling an 11 or better (50% chance).

The Rules: You must abide by wealth by level, any 3.5 book published by WotC is allowed. No homebrew, no 3rd party publishers.

Challengers start your engines...

EDIT: Rules Update: No Candle of Invocation, Pazuzu etc to get free wishes. Using a Pun-Pun strategy makes you the last one picked in dodgeball.

Draz74
2008-05-20, 01:42 PM
Custom items?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 01:51 PM
I'd prefer to avoid custom items... but if you want them,a nd they abide by Wealth By Level rules... go ahead.

Aquillion
2008-05-20, 01:56 PM
What about Pazuzu? Can we use Pazuzu? Or Candle of Invocation recursion? Or Embrace/Shun shenanigans?

SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 01:57 PM
What about Pazuzu? Can we use Pazuzu?

You lost me. :smalleek:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 01:57 PM
A 60 on rolling a 20? Or a +60 to your check?

Note that you're asking for a cheesy answer using a ruleset that allows Pun-pun... you may want to amend your question a bit.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 02:03 PM
Let's say a 60 by rolling an 11... so +49 to diplomacy.

Aquillion
2008-05-20, 02:03 PM
You lost me. :smalleek:
Pazuzu is a fiend from Fiendish Codex I. If you speak his name three times, he appears and grants you a wish, but your alignment shifts one step towards evil (so a good character can get two wishes.) Wishes for paladins are always granted as asked (to the best of his ability) the first time, since he wants to keep corrupting them. However, I believe a DC 30 knowledge check is needed to know about this.

Embrace / Shun involves using a combination of the spells Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos to exchange any feat for any other feat you qualify for -- which doesn't seem that bad, until you realize that, say, elves specifically get six free feats for their weapons proficencies because of stupidly-worded rules...

Candle of Invocation recursion is simple, and you probably know it already. It involves using a Candle of Invocation to gate in an Efreeti (they have the 1/day ability to grant up to three wishes to nongenies), then using those three wishes to get another Candle of Invocation and two other things (whatever you want.) And repeat forever. Note that you must be lawful evil (since candles are alignment-restricted and can only summon things of their alignment, and Efreeti are lawful evil); Pazuzu can help here.

In other words, a level 1 paladin can get two wishes from Pazuzu, including a candle of invocation. They can then use that candle to get unlimited more candles, and use those to get unlimited wishes, infinite wealth, etc. It can also be used to turn into Pun-Pun if that's the sort of thing you're into, but that probably isn't necessary to solving this problem.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 02:05 PM
Ok, we'll add in an addendum that you can't summon outside help for wishes. :smallsmile:

(You people really don't like challenges for the sake of a challenge do you? :P)

ericgrau
2008-05-20, 02:09 PM
Pun pun, Pazuzu, etc. should need to be explicity allowed not disallowed. I frown on trying to win a contest via liberal interpretation (of the contest rules or dnd rules for that matter). Tisk tisk.

Okay, I'll get something started.. Martial for double cha bonus, 18 base cha, venerable age for another +3 cha, pump cha every 4 levels, circlet of persuasion for +3 to cha checks, skill focus (diplomacy), negotiator, 5 ranks in bluff, 5 ranks in knowledge(nobility and royaly), sense motive, cloak of charisma +6. That adds up to +33 + level, plus another +2 at levels 4, 12 and 20.

A pre-epic custom magic item could add up to +20 for 40,000gp instead of +3, increasng the above to 50 + level, plus another +2 at levels 4, 12 and 20.
Levels in rogue could provide skill mastery at level 10, thus making reliable checks of 60 + level. If I were less lazy at the moment I bet I could pull this off with a marshall 1/rogue 10 and level 11 wealth.

That should provide a good baseline. Now pull out the splatbooks.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 02:11 PM
(You people really don't like challenges for the sake of a challenge do you? :P)

Plunk (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-371519).

Plonk (http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-943738.html).

Plenk (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=386506).

SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 02:14 PM
I can't see those at work.. but I can only assume they are joke impugning my honor. Therefore we must compete in an honor duel. Challenged picks weapon, challenger picks location.

I choose ... Mashed Potatoes.

:smallcool:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 02:27 PM
I can't see those at work.. but I can only assume they are joke impugning my honor.

Ha haaah! Location? I pick... the Temple of Dooooom!!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana Jones)

Chronos
2008-05-20, 02:34 PM
Levels in rogue could provide skill mastery at level 10And Binder can let you take 10 on Diplomacy, and do it in a single round at no penalty, at level 1 by binding Naberius. I think you can even do it without taking any levels, by spending a feat on Bind Vestige.

Draz74
2008-05-20, 02:41 PM
And Binder can let you take 10 on Diplomacy, and do it in a single round at no penalty, at level 1 by binding Naberius. I think you can even do it without taking any levels, by spending a feat on Bind Vestige.

No, the Bind Vestige feat only lets you get access to Naberius's dumber abilities. You need an actual Binder level.

ericgrau
2008-05-20, 02:43 PM
Ha haaah! Location? I pick... the Temple of Dooooom!!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana Jones)

I shall bear the case contianing the arms! Challenged gets his first choice of which mashed potato he would like to use. I have lumpy, creamy, extra butter, and cafeteria-style from powdered mix.

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 02:52 PM
So yea, here's a simple rundown:
-Get an item/Cast Glibness.
-Be Half-Elf Warlock with Beguiling Influence.
-A level of Marshal.

Skill Focus and Negotiator for +5, Charisma for +4 + 4 (Marshal Aura), +2 Racial and 7 ranks along with 6 points of synergy. That's 28 on level 3. Get a Scroll of Glibness (it's on your list) and you'll have +58 on level 3. Not quite there; you can fail on a 1, but it's quite ok. +6 from Beguiling Influence already puts that at +64. This would be Marshal 1/Warlock 1/Bard 1 with 18 in Cha.

I'm quite sure it's doable on level 2 (since you can afford the Scroll), but I'm not sure if you can get it on level 1 without using any infinite loops.

NEO|Phyte
2008-05-20, 02:57 PM
So yea, here's a simple rundown:
-Get an item/Cast Glibness.
-Be Half-Elf Warlock with Beguiling Influence.
-A level of Marshal.

Skill Focus and Negotiator for +5, Charisma for +4 + 4 (Marshal Aura), +2 Racial and 7 ranks along with 6 points of synergy. That's 28 on level 3. Get a Scroll of Glibness (it's on your list) and you'll have +58 on level 3. Not quite there; you can fail on a 1, but it's quite ok. +6 from Beguiling Influence already puts that at +64. This would be Marshal 1/Warlock 1/Bard 1 with 18 in Cha.

I'm quite sure it's doable on level 2 (since you can afford the Scroll), but I'm not sure if you can get it on level 1 without using any infinite loops.

Uhh, Glibness doesn't help Diplomacy.

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 03:02 PM
Uhh, Glibness doesn't help Diplomacy.

That's a sham, I tell you - and that's a worth I don't lightly use! Sham! Shammity Sham Sham!

Ok, so that leaves the build at +34. Pick up a level of Binder to lower the necessary skill check to 50 and giving a chance to take 10. A rank for 35, a +5 item (affordable on level 4) for 40, making you autosucceed by taking 10 on rushed check (thanks to Naberius giving you no penalty on a rushed check). Alternatively, a skillboosting item or the Charisma-boosting spell would give +1-2 to charisma modifier and thus +2-4 to the check (Cha applied twice thanks to Marshal). Also, Half-Elf Paragon could help, as well as Cleric with appropriate Domains, but can't fit all those levels so early on. Also, +Cha Templates obviously kick ass with Marshal.

I'm not sure if it's doable before level 3 without Flaws.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 03:10 PM
My shot:

18 Charisma (+4)
Half-Elf (+2)
Warlock with Beguiling Influence (+6)
Marshal with Motivate Charisma (+4), Skill Focus [Diplomacy] (+3)
Ranks: 6
Synergy: Bluff (+2), Know [Nobility] (+2), Sense Motive (+2)
Feats: Negotiator (+2), Good Natured (+2)
Binder with Naberous bound (Lowers DC to 50)

4+2+6+4+3+6+2+2+2+2+2 = +35 at third level

So he could hit it on a roll of 15... but the goal is 11, so I need +4 more.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-20, 03:11 PM
Thomas the Likeable
Old Age Magic Blooded Half Elf/ Marshal1/Warlock1/Anything 1 (Feat Rogue, Psion, Wizard, Binder are all fine choices)

Stats:
Int 12 at least before age
Cha 18+2+2 Age

Important Skills
Diplomacy 7
Sense Motive 5
Bluff 5
Knowledge Nobility and Royalty 5

Feats:
1)Negotiator
Bonus: Skill Focus Diplomacy
3)Nymphs Kiss

Abilities:
Motivate Charisma

Items:
Noble Cloths
Custom Item: +10 Diplomacy 1 Charge Per Day (2000gp)

Diplomacy
Cha +6
+6 Motivate Charisma
+7 Ranks
+2 Synergy Sense Motive
+2 Synergy Bluff
+2 Synergy Nobility and Royalty
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Negotiator
+6 Beguiling Influence
+2 Nymphs kiss
+2 Elf
+10 Diplomacy Item
=50+ take 10= 60

The following needs to be noted:
From Hostile to Helpful is 50 not 60
Glibness grants a bonus to bluff not diplomacy

~Good Day Gentlemen~

Draz74
2008-05-20, 03:21 PM
Uhh, Glibness doesn't help Diplomacy.

... unless you use the Social Recovery skill trick from Complete Scoundrel. :smallamused: But if you want more than one good Diplomacy check per encounter ...

Half-Elf Dragonfire Adept 1/Binder 1/Marshal 1/Cleric 1/Ardent 1.
Circlet of Persuasion, Cloak of +2 CHA.

+8 ranks
+10 CHA
+2 racial
+6 synergy
+6 Beguiling Influence invocation
+7 feats (skill focus, negotiator, sacred vow)
+6 domains (herald, mind)
+3 competence (circlet of persuasion)
+2 mantle (communication)
Take 10 (Naberius)
----------------
Total: 60 skill check result.

So. Level 5 is the best I can come up with. But it always succeeds, not just 50% of the time, and it can be done in one round, even while combat is going on. And requires no 1/day or similarly limited abilities, or even Unearthed Arcana (flaws and traits, which would be an easy +1 from the Honest trait).

EDIT: Ninja'd! And I forgot that the Naberius thing actually lowered the DC. Call me an over-achiever.

Arbitrarity
2008-05-20, 03:24 PM
Glibness doesn't affect diplomacy. However, the same trick with a skill trick, social recovery, will do.
At level 4...
Venerable half-elf marshal 1/warlock 1/binder1/dunno 1
Use 2.5K WBL (Out of 4.5) on a custom +5 item of diplomacy. You could also just get a circlet of persuasion, but then you need another +2 which is tricky.

6(Beguiling Influence)+12(CHA)+7(ranks)+6(synergy)+2(racial)+3 (skill focus, from marshal)+3(Races of destiny 150, complementary insight)+1(trait, Honest) + 1(trait, illiterate) +1 (trait, polite) +5 (or 3) from custom item (or circlet) + 2 (Sacred Vow, BOED, flaw), +4 (vow of peace, BOED) = 53 (51)

This is permanent, never reduces. You can take 10 with naberius. You can use psionic shards to add up to +10 if you want, but they're 1 use only.
You do, however, need to be exalted. Also, no hurting people. Shouldn't be too hard. If you can squeeze in +3, you can forget the extra "dunno" level. Another +7, and you can do it in 2.

Actually, I can get lower level. Mage blooded, faerun, for +2 charisma. Take VoP at level 1, and leave negotiator for level 3, but use the 1st and 2nd level bonus feats on nymph's kiss, and vow of peace. This adds 6 to my current skill total, so...

Charisma: 18 + 2 (old) + 2(mage blooded)
Marshal 1/warlock 1
Feats
1 Sacred Vow
1 Vow of Poverty
1 Nymph's Kiss
1 Complementary Insight
2 Vow of Peace
3 Negotiator
Total:
6(charisma)
6(marshal)
6(warlock)
5(ranks in diplomacy)
9(synergy, including complementary insight)
3 (traits, listed above)
3 (skill focus, from marshal)
2 (sacred vow)
2 (nymph's Kiss)
4 (vow of peace)
2 (negotiator)
2 (racial)
For a total of 50. With naberius bound, that's a 60.

AT LEVEL 2. ALL DAY.
I hereby declare victory. Even if you say I can only take 2 traits, it's still 49, fulfulling the contest rules.

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 03:44 PM
Let's try level 2.

Old Magic-Blooded Half-Elf Binder 1/Marshal 1 with 2 Flaws (Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, (1st bonus) Nymph's Kiss, (2nd bonus) Vow of Peace) and 2 Traits - Polite and Honest (Traits are limited to 2 just as Flaws as far as I remember)

18 base Charisma > 22 Charisma, Eagle's Splendor for 26 = +8 (get your party mage or a church you're in good relations with or whatever cast it for you)

Motivate Charisma, bind Naberius.

8 Charisma
8 Motivate Charisma
5 Ranks
6 Synergy
2 Sacred Vow
3 Skill Focus
2 Nymph's Kiss
4 Vow of Peace
2 Traits

= 40. Take 10 for 50, which is precisely what we need for a rushed check with Naberius. So, I think it's level 2.

EDIT: F*ck that, dropping VoP:

Binder 1/Marshal 1
Old Magic-Blooded Half-Elf
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Complementary Insight
Traits: Two any.

Same stuff. Leads to:

6 + 6 Cha
5 ranks
6 synergy
9 feats
2 racial
2 competence
2 traits


That's 38, 42 with scroll of Eagle's Splendor. Bleh, need to find a way to get 2.

Arbitrarity
2008-05-20, 04:03 PM
Bah, I forgot I can't take Naberius with a warlock level, and I have too few levels for Negotiator.

Either switch warlock for Binder, and use naberius for lower DC when rushed/take 10, and grab an MW (questionable) tool for diplomacy, or get a cheap magic item to boost. I.e. a 900 gp +3 diplomacy tool, eating up your WBL for level 3, but accounting for the lack of 3 traits (only 2) and negotiator.

Atmbn
2008-05-20, 04:21 PM
psyonics always works

Eldariel
2008-05-20, 09:34 PM
Seems like Human still does everything better. I checked Traits and while you can only start with 2, you can add more later on, so 3 Traits are a fair game on level 2. That would give:

Old Magic-Blooded Human Marshal 1/Binder 1
12 Int (necessary for sufficient ranks to max out all 4 skills as a Binder, including one crossclass)
22 Cha

6 Feats (2 Flaws) - Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Celestial Scion: Cranden, Nymph's Kiss (Exalted Bonus), Vow of Peace (Exalted Bonus)
3 Traits - Polite, Honest, Illiterate

Diplomacy Roll: 5 Ranks + 6 synergy + 6 Charisma + 6 Motivate Charisma + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Sacred Vow + 4 Vow of Peace + 2 Nymph's Kiss + 3 Celestial Scion: Cranden + 1 Polite + 1 Honest + 1 Illiterate = 40! And we're binding Naberius, giving us the ability to rush it for free, and to take 10 on the check. That's it; level 2 automatic success all day long.

You could also probably find some bloodline to help it out to make it possible with 2 Traits and with less obscure feat than Celestial Scion: Cranden (it's a Greyhawk feat), but I wasn't able to find any with the first bonus being to Diplomacy (Charisma-bonus comes on level 3, so that's of little use). Affiliations could be another way to make it a tad easier.


EDIT: Just realized that Nymph's Kiss lessens the necessary Int by 2. Thanks to Old, the build needs Int 10 in character creation to work. The rest can go straight into physical stats to make up for the penalties.

Chronos
2008-05-20, 10:49 PM
EDIT: Just realized that Nymph's Kiss lessens the necessary Int by 2. Thanks to Old, the build needs Int 10 in character creation to work. The rest can go straight into physical stats to make up for the penalties.Did you also remember to include the human's bonus skill point?

Cuddly
2008-05-20, 10:57 PM
Voice of the Dragon (SpC) = +10 enhancement bonus to bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate.

Dragonwrought kobold gives you +3 int and +3 cha at no loss to your physical stats. It also sets you up for epic feats, since you're now a dragon. You even get a couple bonus feats as a kobold, which you can chaos shuffle out.

Eldariel
2008-05-21, 09:21 AM
Did you also remember to include the human's bonus skill point?

Yes, that I counted. You need to take Binder-level second; Marshal gets all those skills to 4, and you get 2+Int points as a Binder, so you need 3 over the base 2 to max them all (Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty is crossclass).


If we start to Chaos Shuffle, we'll end up with some Elf being the optimal choice due to the number of feats they get; I think there're enough +2 feats to make every extra feat worth +2. I still don't think it can be done level 1 though.

Nohwl
2008-05-21, 10:06 AM
what book is the chaos shuffle thing from?

Cuddly
2008-05-21, 11:40 PM
Fiendish Codex one. They're both 8th level spells, and cast 200 xp to cast (so 400 xp to shuffle a spell).

Keld Denar
2008-05-22, 12:34 AM
Behold! THE JUMPLOMANCER!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=943738&highlight=jumplomancer

He can jump so high, it makes everyone who see's him BEYOND FANATICAL!

Ohhhhhhhh......

SoD
2008-05-22, 01:16 AM
Behold! THE JUMPLOMANCER!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=943738&highlight=jumplomancer

He can jump so high, it makes everyone who see's him BEYOND FANATICAL!

Ohhhhhhhh......

Sorry, dude. Someone already beat you to it.