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View Full Version : A pvp fight I've never done. Need some advice.



Frosty
2008-05-20, 01:48 PM
I've been challenged to a PvP fight for fun, and I've never done this particular versus before so I'm asking for a bit of advice. Detail as follows:

ECL: 12
32 point buy.
Me: Beguiler 11/Mindbender 1
Him: Monk 12

Standard WBL, but consumables and charged items cost 5 times as much. No partially depleted items allowed. No wand of polymorph, candles abuse, wand of Celerity, etc because those are just too full of Gouda.

Books allowed: PHB, PHB2, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior, Mage, Adventurer, Dee-vine, Book of Exalted Deeds, Tome of Magic, Races of the Wild, Destiny, Stone, Eberron, and Lord of Madness. No Magic Item Compendium.

There will be fights in two settings. The first is in an empty abandoned ancient city, compromised of ruined buildings. Plenty of hiding places and room to run around without having to worry about running into people/crowds. The second is in a populated city of 10,000 people. Plenty of chances to blend in with crowds (and Mindsight less valuable, since there are so many minds). Charming/dominating bystanders to fight for me is forbidden. Eversmoking bottle also would get the Monk in trouble in the populated city because logically, the people would complain.

The first to fall unconscious or die, loses. Assume sleeping is not required.

Now, as I do have Spot and Listen as class skills, I'm not hugely worried about Hide and Move Silently. In the ruins, Mindsight would also help alert to when the Monk approaches. My worry is if my opponent pulls the eversmoking bottle tactic. With total concealment, I can't target the enemy, and I'm not sure how to get Blindsight without the MiC. Also, Monk Will saves are good, so I've gotta hope I don't he doesn't save against most everything I throw at him. Not to mention Monks have a +2 bonus against Enchantments iirc. FoM will make grappling irrelevant, and I can make it last a long time with a Rod of Extend. And since I also have Silent and Still spell for free, I can Silent/Still cast FoM even in a grapple.

What kind of tactics/build might a Monk use against a Beguiler and what feats/items can I do to prepare?

Draz74
2008-05-20, 01:53 PM
Charming/dominating bystanders to fight for me is forbidden.

That's like a fight where the Cleric is told, "no healing (yourself) allowed." :smallsigh:

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 01:53 PM
Start off by maximizing your saving throw DC.

32 point buy means you can afford an 18 int; add +2 for levels, +4 from an item, and if allowed, pick any race that gives +2 more (for a total of 26, that's +8 to the DC). Then, take Spell Focus and Greater SF (+2) and all the DC boosting items you can find (there's a Veil that gives +2, and a ioun stone, and more). Since the Book of Exalted Cheese is allowed, tack on Vow of Nonviolence for an additional +4.

Saving throw of 27 + spell level. That's gotta hurt. And while you're at it, try something similar for initiative.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-20, 01:55 PM
The veil he speaks of is the Veil of Allure, it adds +2 to the DCs of all Enchantment spells... Magic Item Comp.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 01:58 PM
MiC is not allowed for this fight. And I can't take Exalted feats. Mindbender makes me non-good by default.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 01:59 PM
Get Overland flight or a scroll of it. Then, plink the loser with a crossbow.

Nohwl
2008-05-20, 02:03 PM
those rules seem pretty limiting. why did you agree to them?

Frosty
2008-05-20, 02:05 PM
There's no lack of cover. Buildings everywhere. Even abandoned buildings can be intact and block crossbow bolts. Besides, he's a monk. I can only fire one crossbow bolt per round. Snatch arrows can catch that bolt (and maybe throw it back at me)

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 02:05 PM
MiC is not allowed for this fight. And I can't take Exalted feats. Mindbender makes me non-good by default.

If Veil of Allure is in the MiC (I wasn't sure), stick with a Headband +4 instead.

I'm reasonably sure you can start with neutral alignment, become a Mindbender around level 6, and then change your alignment to good and take an exalted vow.

Also, as always with beguilers, consider taking Arcane Disciple for a few nasty surprises. Who says beguilers can't have summon spells or fire beams?

Frosty
2008-05-20, 02:07 PM
I'm reasonably sure you can start with neutral alignment, become a Mindbender around level 6, and then change your alignment to good and take an exalted vow.

Then I'd lose all of my Mindbender class abilities because I no longer qualify for the class, and by extension, I'd lose my Mindsight.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 02:13 PM
Meh, this is really easy. Get something like a wisdom draining ray if there is one, then cast a mind fog learned through advanced learning. Then, Feeblemind. To top off, a touch of idiocy, then coup de grace until the monk dies down.

Draz74
2008-05-20, 02:16 PM
Meh, this is really easy. Get something like a wisdom draining ray if there is one,
which I don't think there is.


then cast a mind fog learned through advanced learning. Then, Feeblemind. To top off, a touch of idiocy, then coup de grace until the monk dies down.

Seems rather roundabout. Damage his wisdom first, just so you can damage his Int/Cha later for the kill?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 02:24 PM
which I don't think there is.



Seems rather roundabout. Damage his wisdom first, just so you can damage his Int/Cha later for the kill?

Exactly, Because monks have pretty good saves. And feeblemind reduces him directly to teh onez, not to mention the whole number of spells is an exercise in a very evil humiliation conga. In any case, if there's no ray, there was a spell that did at least 2d6 WIS damage, save for half. Unless you roll two ones, that'll be enough to use Mind fog and start playing with your new little toy.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 02:26 PM
Then I'd lose all of my Mindbender class abilities because I no longer qualify for the class, and by extension, I'd lose my Mindsight.

While that interpretation certainly makes sense, unlike certain other (prestige) classes with alignment restrictions, Mindbender does not describe any consequences of your character changing alignment. So one could argue either way.

Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchofIdiocy.htm) reduces wisdom. It's not a ray, but there's metamagical ways around that. That said, draining the monk's wisdom doesn't sound like such a strong strategy to me.

Oh yeah, more strategy? Grab Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic. Pelt the monklet with two save-or-loses per turn until he drops.

Iku Rex
2008-05-20, 02:32 PM
So if I get this straight you've decided on Beguiler11/Mindbender1, with Mindsight (LoM 126) at level 12. You want suggestions for other feats, ability scores and items based on the books allowed. What about race? Advanced learning?


Also, you say Unearthed Arcana is "allowed", which doesn't make any sense. It's a collection of campaign (house) rules for DMs. Which rules have your DM allowed?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 02:35 PM
Oh, of course. How could I be such an idiot?

Get a few scrolls of Enervation. Use THAT to reduce his saves or plain kill him. Problem solved.

Burley
2008-05-20, 02:57 PM
Pump that DC as high as you can before the battle.
Get yourself a Familiar when you can, preferably something that can fly.
Throw a Glitterdust at him. While he's blinded, have your Familiar deliver a Touch of Idiocy, which will reduce his will save, his AC and the DC for his Stunning Fist, if he's using it. Spam that until he's a vegetable. It may take a couple of good rolls, but if he's blinded you'll be relatively safe. If you don't think you'd stand a chance at blinding him (because his Will save will be high) You have Greater Invisibility by now, right?

If you're allowed to cast any spells prior to the "3,2,1...Fight!":
Expedious retreat to counter his speed
Spider Climb (depending on terrain) to get away from his attacks and make your familiar do your dirty work

Frosty
2008-05-20, 04:16 PM
So if I get this straight you've decided on Beguiler11/Mindbender1, with Mindsight (LoM 126) at level 12. You want suggestions for other feats, ability scores and items based on the books allowed. What about race? Advanced learning?

That is correct, except why wait until level 12 to take Mindsight? But yes, I'd like suggestions for feats, ability scores (18 in Int obviously), and items based ont he allowed books. Race can be any race of LA +1 or lower that is Medium or Small size that is found in the books listed. Advanced learning can come from any wizard/sorc enchantment/illusion spell found in the books listed, plus the Spell Compendium.



Also, you say Unearthed Arcana is "allowed", which doesn't make any sense. It's a collection of campaign (house) rules for DMs. Which rules have your DM allowed?
Well basically, there are some altenrative class features for the monk in the book, so the monk could conceivably take those. Also, up to 2 flaws for each character.


If you're allowed to cast any spells prior to the "3,2,1...Fight!":
Well they will be randomly dropped into the city not knowing where the other is, but knowing what the other looks like in his default form. They can then spen their time buffing and looking for the other as they wish.


Get a few scrolls of Enervation.
But how do I get past the smoke bottle problem if he decides to go with that? I can't target him if I can't see him unless I've got blindsight or something.

Arbitrarity
2008-05-20, 04:22 PM
Mindsight might help with smoke bottles?

Touch of idiocy doesn't stack.

Yeah, enervate him to fail, then toss save or loses repeatedly.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 04:25 PM
Something like Lightning Bolt, shot in a line, should work. If you have Knowledge Arcane, you can bargain with your DM to make a check to notice it's an eversmoking bottle.

Or of course, any way to produce winds. THEN Orb of sound it or the like.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 04:37 PM
Mindsight is like blindsense sort of of. I know they're there, but I still can't target them with a targeted spell. I guess Whelming Burst could work well enough. If I take Blind-fight, I *could* go for an Overhwhelm.

Azerian: You want me to be a Gia-Beguiler? UMD as the answer for everything? :smallwink: That's the only way I'll produce wind or orbs of sound.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 04:43 PM
Nope, UMD just sets the stage. See, the only thing monk has going for it is survival. A monk worth his salt will have gross saves, so your only trick, Save or X, will be nigh useless if the monk preps up (One Cloak of resistance +5 and you're screwed). Thus, you need to knock the saves down a few pegs, which is where scrolls come in.

Not to mention, the difference is that Gia is utterly useless without complicated economic cheese and wands. You, meanwhile, simply pick appropriate gear for your fight, simply what a wiseman would do.

Or d'you prefer being blind because of the bottle, useless because the monk makes the saves, and loser because you overestimated what is, after all, a limted spell list?

FlyMolo
2008-05-20, 04:50 PM
Well, the eversmoking bottle is only a problem if you let it be. He has to carry it around, right? Stay far away from it, on top of a building, or somesuch. Get a wand of fireball. Wait until he moves it. Then fireball the area. If he doesn't move it, just sit and wait. Shoot xbow bolts into it every so often, working over the area. With an eversmoking bottle, he'll be flatfooted. He can't see you, ergo you can't see him. And make sure he can't sneak out of the area. If the area is huge, just pepper it with bolts. They're light, and a BoH can hold thousands. The chances are tiny that you'll hit him, but the odds are still in your favor. It'll take hours at least to hit him enough to kill him, but you've got time. And if he moves it, fireball the new smaller area. In fact, you could keep fireballing where you think the center of the area is, looking to destroy the bottle.

So, hang back, pepper the cloud with bolts, then fireball when he moves.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 04:56 PM
If you think this is going to be an endurance battle, grab a reserve feat or two.

You can even use Arcane Disciple or Advanced (eclectic) Learning to grab some modicum of energy spell, then use one of the several blasty reserve feats to cast it forever. Does more damage than a crossbow bolt.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 04:58 PM
So I use a wand to Gust of Wind or something, and then next round I cast enervation? I don't think that's fast enough.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 05:01 PM
If you think this is going to be an endurance battle, grab a reserve feat or two.

You can even use Arcane Disciple or Advanced (eclectic) Learning to grab some modicum of energy spell, then use one of the several blasty reserve feats to cast it forever. Does more damage than a crossbow bolt.

Eccletic learning not allowed in this fight. Arcane Disciple is fine.

Hmm, Otto's Irresistable Dance has no save, and can be bought as a level 6 scroll if created by a bard...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 05:02 PM
So I use a wand to Gust of Wind or something, and then next round I cast enervation? I don't think that's fast enough.

O RLY?

Use Solid Fog, the ONLY spell on your list that is good in-combat and not a save or X. Cast behind yourself and once you smash the bottle, move back. If the monk wants to get close for fisticuffs, that's AT LEAST four rounds, if you DON'T move. The monk is now perfectly useless.

Just relax and take your time. The monk is but a nuisance, your new little toy to play with.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 05:04 PM
How do I smash the bottle if the Monk is carrying it?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 05:09 PM
How do I smash the bottle if the Monk is carrying it?

A gust of wind, then one CL 10 fireball or the like, or possibly an orb, AIMED AT THE BOTTLE. Or Shatter.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 05:16 PM
Am I allowed a sunder attempt with a ranged attack? Don't I need a feat for that or something?

The fireball won't work because the item is attended. The Monk gotta roll a 1 on his ref save before the item has a chance of getting damaged.

Doesn't Shatter only work on non-magical items? I guess I can gust of wind, Dispel Magic the Bottle, then Shatter it. But that's 3 turns. The Monk can just run away to wait for the Dispel to wear off.

ZeroNumerous
2008-05-20, 05:18 PM
Pick up the "Summon Elemental" reserve feat, get Arcane Disciple(Summoning Domain), then get atleast 16 Wisdom. You can now summon a Medium Elemental as a standard action. Hide/MS somewhere(or use your own eversmoking bottle!) and just pump elementals until he dies.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 05:19 PM
Solid fog again. Really, is there ANYTHING that can't do? :smallamused:

Also, shatter seemingly breaks one solid object of any kind, REGARDLESS of anything other than weight.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 05:26 PM
Am I allowed a sunder attempt with a ranged attack? Don't I need a feat for that or something?
Yes, that requires the appropriately named Ranged Sunder feat.



Doesn't Shatter only work on non-magical items?
Yes, and it gives a saving throw if the item is attended. If you really want to go into the shattering strategy, take a level in warlock for Baleful Utterance. You'd be amazed at how useful that is in a city.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 05:37 PM
Solid fog again. Really, is there ANYTHING that can't do? :smallamused:

Also, shatter seemingly breaks one solid object of any kind, REGARDLESS of anything other than weight.

I'm pretty sure Shatter allows a save, and any save from a wand will be pretty low.

Solid Fog is nice, but not fool-proof. The Monk can have a ring of FoM. Granted, that's like what...40% of his WBL? But he could have it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 05:41 PM
Not if he wants to have a chance. If he has a FoM ring, pepper him with SoXs, because without a cloak of resistance, he's gonna bite the dust by the second or third spell.

And, of course, you could Grease him, which would cause nasty balance issues for him, and leave him flat footed unless he has five ranks in balance.

Oh, and try and get Overland Flight, the monk's done with that.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 05:59 PM
Not if he wants to have a chance. If he has a FoM ring, pepper him with SoXs, because without a cloak of resistance, he's gonna bite the dust by the second or third spell.

And, of course, you could Grease him, which would cause nasty balance issues for him, and leave him flat footed unless he has five ranks in balance.

Oh, and try and get Overland Flight, the monk's done with that.

I forgot the WBL of a level 12. About 100k? I know level 11 is 88k. A cloak of +5 is 25k. ring is 40k. If he gets both, that doesn't leave him much for others that's true. but what else does he need? A bottle is only like 5 to 6k. He doesn't wear armor, and he uses his fists. Stat boosters are always good I guess

Overland Flight is very cool, but possibly not an issue because Races of the Wild is allowed to the Monk could be a Raptoran and have natural flight.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 06:03 PM
Nope, it's level 12 that has 88k.

So yeah, the guy has to be a raptoran, has no moolah for amulet of mighty fists, staying 5' away from him renders him useless. I wouldn't even care and just get Gust of wind or the like and two scrolls of enervation, plus one of shatter or two. You'll win.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 06:08 PM
So yeah, the guy has to be a raptoran, has no moolah for amulet of mighty fists, staying 5' away from him renders him useless.

???

You mean due to fact they can't hover? They can by taking Improved Maneuverability.

I actually wonder, if, between Greater Mirror Image and Mirror Image and Displacement, I can last long enough to just hit him with enough Save-or-Sucks while being next to him.

Oslecamo
2008-05-20, 06:09 PM
SHATTER DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

Everybody kknows that casters can be quite good. Few people, however, seem to know how to actually make their casters quite good.

This seems to be turning into a fight to see who can abuse items more. Both sides are trying to cover up their weakness with magic items.

Can't you just make a naked fight? Or put some limit in expendable items at least? If you intend to win just using UMD, you proved nothing of the beguiler's power, just that magic items are imba.

At this rate, the monk player will just show up with a candle of invocation.

EDIT:You can try to hide with the mirror stuff, but then if the monk's smart he'll just run away with his superior speed and hide.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 06:10 PM
Nope, I'm saying it because full attacks require no movement other than a 5' step. Should have phrased it as "Staying 10' away from him renders him useless". And yes, with that many buffs, he won't hit you.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 06:12 PM
SHATTER DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

Everybody kknows that casters can be quite good. Few people, however, seem to know how to actually make their casters quite good.

This seems to be turning into a fight to see who can abuse items more. Both sides are trying to cover up their weakness with magic items.

Can't you just make a naked fight? Or put some limit in expendable items at least? If you intend to win just using UMD, you proved nothing of the beguiler's power, just that magic items are imba.

At this rate, the monk player will just show up with a candle of invocation.

You just made a mistake and wasted a perfectly good Morbo. Check the independent second paragraph.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 06:13 PM
There already is a limit on items. 5 times the normal price for expendables. the battle can last for days if not longer due to the stealthy nature of both characters, so relying on expendable items for buffs will not work forever.

As for being naked, the monk just loses...horribly. If the Monk does not use an eversmoking bottle, then I probably won't need UMD at all. I think I can win, given enough time with just my normal spell list + Advanced Learning.

Oslecamo
2008-05-20, 07:35 PM
You just made a mistake and wasted a perfectly good Morbo. Check the independent second paragraph.

GRAMMAR DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

Independant? Ok, let's assume it's independant.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.

Ok, it can now affect magical objects. But guess what? It doesn't do anything to the object!

Since you kindly declared that the paragraph rebelled and become independant from the rest of the spell description, then there is not a single word that suports that the object gets destroyed.

Chronicled
2008-05-20, 08:12 PM
There already is a limit on items. 5 times the normal price for expendables. the battle can last for days if not longer due to the stealthy nature of both characters, so relying on expendable items for buffs will not work forever.

If you can hide REALLY well (which might include a Rope Trick UMD), a Heward's Handy Bedroll from Complete Mage lets you regain spells in 1 hour.

Arcane Versatility from Races of the Dragon might be a good feat idea for longevity.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-20, 08:26 PM
GRAMMAR DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!

Independant? Ok, let's assume it's independant.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.

Ok, it can now affect magical objects. But guess what? It doesn't do anything to the object!

Since you kindly declared that the paragraph rebelled and become independant from the rest of the spell description, then there is not a single word that suports that the object gets destroyed.

*Chuckle*

Yeah, it doesn't say that you can target it, no sirrah it doesn't, not to mention it is an "Or" paragraph. Well done, truly well done.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 08:50 PM
If you can hide REALLY well (which might include a Rope Trick UMD), a Heward's Handy Bedroll from Complete Mage lets you regain spells in 1 hour.

Arcane Versatility from Races of the Dragon might be a good feat idea for longevity.

I was actually thinking of getting a Collar of Umbra Metamorphosis, granting me the Dark template, so I got some hiding boosts, Darkvision, and Hide in Plain Sight.

Cuddly
2008-05-20, 11:32 PM
Solid fog again. Really, is there ANYTHING that can't do? :smallamused:

Actually win a fight?


Anyway, if he's a raptoran, take to the skies, then web the bastard.

Chronicled
2008-05-21, 12:07 AM
I was actually thinking of getting a Collar of Umbra Metamorphosis, granting me the Dark template, so I got some hiding boosts, Darkvision, and Hide in Plain Sight.

That's a wonderful item and I agree that you should get it.

Oslecamo
2008-05-21, 05:15 AM
*Chuckle*

Yeah, it doesn't say that you can target it, no sirrah it doesn't, not to mention it is an "Or" paragraph. Well done, truly well done.


Indeed. Use it as an area effect to destroy fragile objects in that area, OR target it against a single object, with no written effect.

As you claimed, the paragraphs are completely independant. It doesn't matter what one of them say, it doesn't affect in any way the others.

OR the paragraphs are dependant, and then the first paragraph takes priority over the others.

Here, take a look at the Wotc Co forums:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=797499

What more proof do you need? Or are you gonna keep ignoring random bits of text so the rules work in the most convenient way for your character?

Talic
2008-05-21, 05:49 AM
I second the elemental idea. Make them Air. Every one does whirlwinds.

Armads
2008-05-21, 06:18 AM
Since shatter doesnt break magic items, why not do the traditional Dispel + Shatter combo?

Frosty
2008-05-21, 09:21 AM
Mostly because I can't target it. It's surrounded by smoke. If I somehow Gust of Wind the smoke, the Monk can use his amazing run speed to run away. If I quicken the Dispel somehow and get Gust of Wind and Dispel off on the same round, the Monk can still run away before I cast Shatter. Annoying, really, that bottle

kme
2008-05-21, 09:44 AM
Well, you can buy some potions of blindsight spell (spell compendium page 32). Of course they are not perfect, since he can run away and wait for duration to pass, but if you stop him somehow for just a few rounds... (solid fog :smallwink:).

Frosty
2008-05-21, 02:18 PM
Is blindsight a level 3 or lower spell?

Armads
2008-05-22, 03:52 AM
wouldnt the monk also blind himself with his smoke bottle? So maybe you could use illusionary voices to lure him off a cliff, or just exploit the fact that he can't see.

Talic
2008-05-22, 04:31 AM
Is blindsight a level 3 or lower spell?

According to most recent printing, it is a level 3 spell.

Also, Hitting up the smoky area with webs would be a good move. I believe he has to make saves in that thing.

Light webs on fire would be step 2.

Sir Giacomo
2008-05-22, 05:56 AM
Hi Frosty,

I once had a similar situation in PvP, with the sides changed, though (me the monk, the other the druid/caster).

Eversmoking bottle IS incredibly strong. You won't be able to shatter it (you cannot target the bottle, and even if you could, it is magical, so you cannot shatter it). You cannot dispel it, since for this, you'd need to target the bottle (sic!).

Similarly, you cannot use any targeted spells at all on the monk, plus you can hardly pepper him with rays, since for those to even get the 50% chance, you'll have to pinpoint the monk - unlikely since that monk likely has move silently maxed (see also my sig for the monk guide and check the example build for the respective level - it has an eversmoking bottle and is built to make use of it).

Conversely, any time you enter the smoke you need to save vs Fort or are reduced to doing nothing in the round (plus coughing, making it easy to pinpoint YOU. The monk might even have some kind of crossbow +1 with seeking bolts - which would put you at great danger.

Sooo...What can you do?
- Solid fog does NOT help. Basically, you need to know WHERE the monk is to start with (the monk activates the bottle, 50ft smoke radius comes up immediately, then he moves wihtin the smoke randomly - good look even catching him with that area spell). And, at best, you slow him down only.
- Area damage spells do not help either, since the monk has improved evasion.
- now you COULD try to disperse the smoke. There are basically three ways to do it; and only one actually helps for long.
1) gust of wind. In a certain small area, the smoke is dispersed and reforms again after the round is over (it is called EVERsmoking bottle!)
2) air elementals. This is quite good, because at the same time the offer attacking potential AND will whirlwind (only the big ones can do that btw!) for some rounds. After that, the smoke resumes. So better get your nova attack spells in then. If it's a ruin-littered area, though, the monk can use the round until the smoke disperses, though, for hiding. So be cautious to use this tactics.
3) Control winds - unfortunately, though, not a wizard spell :smallbiggrin:This is the only one I know of that for hours will negate the smoke (after which it resumes again).

So, yes, basically you have hardly no way around the smoke.

Things you could try THEN is: summon swarm (courtesy Solo; however the swarm also has to save vs the smoke choking effect, so better use some undead or constructs). Or some blindsense creatuers sent to hunt the monk in the smoke (danger: you run out of spells, while the monk may simply wait those out).
You CAN also try to wear down the monk with area damage spells (he could take SOME damage from the much-maligned maximised fireballs.....)
Talic's idea of web with fire-follow up is much more elegant, though (note that you need certain conditions for the web to be fixed, which is difficult if you cannot see....)
A good idea is also to use illusions to create sounds of wrong things (bluff that you summoned creatures - note though that a true mage bane Joker monk would have spellcraft and have a good chance to know what you cast).
Or ready a deadly touch spell to the moment the monk comes near you (when you lure him close to you).

And watch out! The monk at that level may have a means to fly, which means he'll be quite fast - and with blind-fight even in the smoke!

That's about all for now...

- Giacomo

Talic
2008-05-22, 06:10 AM
Actually, the web/fire is horribly bad, from a damage ratio perspective. Very low damage.

However, note the following. If the monk is hiding within an environment such as this, then you have him on the defensive. The monk has given up visibility, and subjected himself to a low threat save vs status effect... Just to stop you from targeting. He has also prevented himself from targeting, and revealed his general area to you.

So if the monk has 1 area shaped?? Shape another.

I could be of more immediate help if this were a wizard you were doing. As is, I'll need to review mindbender first.

However, a solid purchase option is a Necklace of Adaptation, which will render you immune to the smoke's effects.

Frosty
2008-05-22, 01:30 PM
Well, I *could* shatter the bottle. I just need to disperse the wind, Dispel it it make it non-magicla, THEN shatter it. Very very difficult.

Or I could try to *steal* it from the Monk. Can I use Sleight of hand to grab it if the monk is holding it? If the Monk sets it down to move around in the cloud, I can conceivably find it right?

My though of sure-fire being able to hit the monk is grab Blind-fight and ready an action to hit the Monk with a Save or Die, but that's risky. If I run outa spells I'll have to run until the next day.

Although, just spamming air elementals may work as well, since I just read the MM and all air elementals regardles sof size have them. Getting an Item that can cast Blindsight on me can also work, although that'd be more expensive. What is the duration of Blindsight?