Thoughtbot360
2008-05-20, 02:19 PM
The Alexandrian (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/saveordie.html) has posted an article on Save-or-Die (and Save-or-Lose, BTW) effects. Namely the writer has analyzed the problem and possible solutions, and categorized the different types of Save-or-Die effects:
(1) The effect takes the character out of play, but the character itself can take actions (usually additional saving throws) to put themselves back in play. For example, a hold person spell (which we'll talk about more later) paralyzes the target on a failed save, but allows the target to make a new save each round to recover.
(2) The effect takes the character out of play, but other characters can take trivial actions to put them back into play. For example, a sleep spell works like this -- another character can simply take an action to slap the character and wake them up.
(3) The effect takes the character out of play, but other characters can put them back in play if they have the right resources prepared. For example, any paralysis can be removed if you have a remove paralysis spell available.
(4) The effect kills the character.
It should also be noted that, beyond a certain point, the difference between the third and fourth categories becomes largely academic: A paralysis effect requires remove paralysis; a finger of death requires a resurrection. From a mechanical standpoint, at least, the difference is merely one of degree.
The writer goes on to place the blame at the save-or-die spell's ability to skimp over hit points entirely and reduce fighting with non direct damage spells into a craps game. After dismissing 4th edition's solution to the problem, he presented this:
The problem with save-or-die mechanics is that they bypass the ablative combat mechanics that work so well. So here's my thought: Instead of just watering these effects down, let's change the paradigm entirely and tie them into the ablative damage system.
The simplest solution is to simply have save-or-die effects deal ability score damage. For example, in my house rules all death effects deal 4d6 points of Constitution damage. If the spell has a secondary effect -- such as turning the victim into a pile of dust -- this effect only happens if the victim is killed by the Constitution damage. Similarly, you could have paralysis effects dealing Dexterity damage.
If I was completely overhauling the system, I would -- at the very least -- vary the amount of ability score damage depending on the power of the effect in question. For example, death effects might vary from 2d6 to 4d6 points of Con damage depending on whether you were talking about a 6th-level spell or a 9th-level spell.
But you can also get fancier: For example, if I were redesigning hold person I would make the spell deal 1d6 points of Dexterity damage per round until the victim made a successful save. If the victim is reduced to 0 Dex as a result of the spell, they are paralyzed (as the magical energies of the spell bind their limbs completely)...
...Under this paradigm, there would be no need for a "paralysis" condition -- paralyzed creatures are simply those which have been reduced to 0 Dex. Similarly, a spell like remove paralysis would just be a quick way of healing Dexterity damage.
A sleep spell would be a mental assault, inflicting 1d4 points of Wisdom damage per round until the victim makes a save or drops into a magical coma. When the sleep spell wore off, this Wisdom damage -- like the damage from a ray of enfeeblement -- would be restored.
Sounds interesting, don't you think?
Taking the concepts discussed here, I've made a list of changes, including tying certain abilities to conditions.
Constitution: Disentigration. Ability damage, while quite high, is only dealt once per spell, if that didn't eat all the constitution, nothing happens. But the Constitution damage remains.
Dexterity: Paralyzation and petrification. Each round until save is made.
Charisma: Soul Trapping and Mind-Controlling. Each round until save is made. Charisma damage undone upon successful save.
Wisdom: Those that affect state of awareness like Sleep. Each round until save is made. Wisdom Damage undone upon successful save.
Emotions and the like: As usual, but make a save each round to regain normal emotional state.
Dispel Magic, Dimension Anchor and other anti-caster spells: I don't think these really need to be changed.
Baleful Polymorph: On a failed Fortitude save, Physical Stats start draining (Save each round to slow down, but not stop, the drain) to match the selected animal (the target also might start to grow fur or take on other obvious aspects of the animal), and once reaching those stats, the transformation becomes complete. Also, if the animal and the target's original form are two or more size categories apart, the target shrinks to the median size as soon as the spell is first successfully cast on him. On a failed Will Save, Intelligence starts doing the same thing, turning the target's mind into a beast. If the spell expires before the stat drain is complete, the targets stats and size return to normal. If one the animal's stats are higher than the target's originally were, no change occurs to that stat.
Alter Self: Look, Alter Self should be like a Change self that can't be disbelieved. It shouldn't grant you any real powers.
Beneficial Polymorph spells: Either severely limited or scrapped.
Negative Levels: If we keep them, they are going to need a major nerf. Metamagicked Enervation is just too much.
Forcecage and other No save One shot spells: They need to die.
(1) The effect takes the character out of play, but the character itself can take actions (usually additional saving throws) to put themselves back in play. For example, a hold person spell (which we'll talk about more later) paralyzes the target on a failed save, but allows the target to make a new save each round to recover.
(2) The effect takes the character out of play, but other characters can take trivial actions to put them back into play. For example, a sleep spell works like this -- another character can simply take an action to slap the character and wake them up.
(3) The effect takes the character out of play, but other characters can put them back in play if they have the right resources prepared. For example, any paralysis can be removed if you have a remove paralysis spell available.
(4) The effect kills the character.
It should also be noted that, beyond a certain point, the difference between the third and fourth categories becomes largely academic: A paralysis effect requires remove paralysis; a finger of death requires a resurrection. From a mechanical standpoint, at least, the difference is merely one of degree.
The writer goes on to place the blame at the save-or-die spell's ability to skimp over hit points entirely and reduce fighting with non direct damage spells into a craps game. After dismissing 4th edition's solution to the problem, he presented this:
The problem with save-or-die mechanics is that they bypass the ablative combat mechanics that work so well. So here's my thought: Instead of just watering these effects down, let's change the paradigm entirely and tie them into the ablative damage system.
The simplest solution is to simply have save-or-die effects deal ability score damage. For example, in my house rules all death effects deal 4d6 points of Constitution damage. If the spell has a secondary effect -- such as turning the victim into a pile of dust -- this effect only happens if the victim is killed by the Constitution damage. Similarly, you could have paralysis effects dealing Dexterity damage.
If I was completely overhauling the system, I would -- at the very least -- vary the amount of ability score damage depending on the power of the effect in question. For example, death effects might vary from 2d6 to 4d6 points of Con damage depending on whether you were talking about a 6th-level spell or a 9th-level spell.
But you can also get fancier: For example, if I were redesigning hold person I would make the spell deal 1d6 points of Dexterity damage per round until the victim made a successful save. If the victim is reduced to 0 Dex as a result of the spell, they are paralyzed (as the magical energies of the spell bind their limbs completely)...
...Under this paradigm, there would be no need for a "paralysis" condition -- paralyzed creatures are simply those which have been reduced to 0 Dex. Similarly, a spell like remove paralysis would just be a quick way of healing Dexterity damage.
A sleep spell would be a mental assault, inflicting 1d4 points of Wisdom damage per round until the victim makes a save or drops into a magical coma. When the sleep spell wore off, this Wisdom damage -- like the damage from a ray of enfeeblement -- would be restored.
Sounds interesting, don't you think?
Taking the concepts discussed here, I've made a list of changes, including tying certain abilities to conditions.
Constitution: Disentigration. Ability damage, while quite high, is only dealt once per spell, if that didn't eat all the constitution, nothing happens. But the Constitution damage remains.
Dexterity: Paralyzation and petrification. Each round until save is made.
Charisma: Soul Trapping and Mind-Controlling. Each round until save is made. Charisma damage undone upon successful save.
Wisdom: Those that affect state of awareness like Sleep. Each round until save is made. Wisdom Damage undone upon successful save.
Emotions and the like: As usual, but make a save each round to regain normal emotional state.
Dispel Magic, Dimension Anchor and other anti-caster spells: I don't think these really need to be changed.
Baleful Polymorph: On a failed Fortitude save, Physical Stats start draining (Save each round to slow down, but not stop, the drain) to match the selected animal (the target also might start to grow fur or take on other obvious aspects of the animal), and once reaching those stats, the transformation becomes complete. Also, if the animal and the target's original form are two or more size categories apart, the target shrinks to the median size as soon as the spell is first successfully cast on him. On a failed Will Save, Intelligence starts doing the same thing, turning the target's mind into a beast. If the spell expires before the stat drain is complete, the targets stats and size return to normal. If one the animal's stats are higher than the target's originally were, no change occurs to that stat.
Alter Self: Look, Alter Self should be like a Change self that can't be disbelieved. It shouldn't grant you any real powers.
Beneficial Polymorph spells: Either severely limited or scrapped.
Negative Levels: If we keep them, they are going to need a major nerf. Metamagicked Enervation is just too much.
Forcecage and other No save One shot spells: They need to die.