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Aquillion
2008-05-20, 03:11 PM
1. Introduction

Remember when the other people were flipping through the PHB, oo-ing and ahh-ing at all the overpowered classes contained therein? And you just couldn't seem to get into the role of any of them for some reason (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouSuck)?

I have the answer. There is one class, much-maligned, which people say can never succeed. Wizards laugh at you; barbarians kick sand in your face; Monks polymorph into dragons and eat you. I am talking, of course, about the lowly commoner.

In this essay, I intend to demonstrate the advantages and, yes, superiority of the commoner over many other classes, focusing specifically on how commoners can easily beat wizards if the wizards have no items or spells prepared as well as no feats or useful alternate class features or anything else in reserve and are also unconscious. A high bar, admittedly, but I think that it is necessary to take on such a challenge to show the world the commoner's true capabilities.

2. Advantages

I can hear you already. "But," you say, "the commoner has no class features!"

This is a lie. A dirty filthy lie. The commoner has lots of class features! Why, just a single level of commoner for your first level nets you four times their usual skill points, as well as the automatic maximum on their HD roll. As you progress in the commoner class, you will gain points of BAB, bonuses to your saves, and more and more HD -- you even get to add your con to your HD at every level, easily negating any supposed disadvantage their low HD gives them (and, anyway, that's the same HD as a wizard! Nobody calls wizards weak.) And commoners even have other abilities, too, ones that every other class doesn't automatically get as well!

First, look at their skill list. Commoners get several vital skills, allowing them to contribute as a skill-monkey when necessary. They have the ever-useful climb and jump, allowing them to hit flying creatures when there is a wall nearby or if it is only a few feet off the ground; they have ride and handle animal, which lets them ride or tame a much much stronger creature like a riding dog; they have swim, which can save your life by keeping you from drowning; they have use rope for kinky things, and they've got spot and listen, which every party needs.

Notice that wizards don't get any of these skills. Not one. The commoner has won already; we hardly even need to continue. But that's not all -- there's more. Look a bit lower on the commoner's SRD entry, and you'll see something even better:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

The commoner is proficient with one simple weapon. He is not proficient with any other weapons, nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shields.That's right. Any simple weapon you want. And that's not all... go look up the Incantrix, IotSV, or Planar Shephard I dare you. What weapon and armor proficiencies do you see there? That's right. None. Those are the best caster PRCs out there, and they don't give you a single weapon proficiency at all... while commoner can give you any simple weapon proficiency you want. WotC must've been asleep at the wheel when they made this one.

Now that we've shown the commoner's superiority to casters, let's focus on the other classes. It's true, of course, that powerful classes like fighters and CW Samurai and soulknives have more BAB, while rogues have more skill points. A commoner, though, can overcome this.

First, for the BAB problem, a Skillful weapon will effectively raise your BAB to 3/4ths -- you've already matched the Soulknife, so you're a third of the way to beating the melee classes with that one purchase!

For the other classes, just look at the commoner's superior skillset -- commoners have Profession (which can grant unlimited gold at no risk!) They have use rope, which can disable enemies completely with a good enough roll. They have the ever-useful listen and spot, meaning that a commoner can make a better warehouse guard than a fighter. Obviously, you don't have any need for those top-tier melee classes when the commoner is around.

Next, rogues. I shouldn't even need to point this out, but commoners have Ride and Handle Animal as class skills -- both are very powerful, and can together net you as many animal servants as you can pay for, while you ride one yourself (something that can easily have more HP than the flimsy rogue!) Clearly, the commoner beats the rogue completely.

Ah, but the game isn't just endless match-ups -- the commoner has other unique advantages too. One of the biggest among them: The commoner gains more than any class, bar none, from being Polymorphed. This is indisputable. Once-mighty casters lose all their non-stilled, non-silenced spells (except druids with natural spell, who gain very little because, obviously, they could wild shape already.) Rogues might not be able to apply all their skills, and both rogues and fighter-types lose their weapons and equipment. Monks lose their best class feature -- it's much harder for them to UMD wands and so on in a form with no hands.

Commoners, though! All those minor disadvantages people complain about so much when criticizing the class are completely erased. Why, a commoner polymorphed into a dragon would have no trouble beating a wizard who was baleful polymorphed into a frog, as long as the wizard has no stilled silent spells or contingencies or other useful buffs in effect and also hasn't used gate or planar binding to set up protections in advance. It's almost a guaranteed win!

Commoners also gain tons from divine power, five whole points more than a cleric or monk at level 20.

PRCs
----
When it comes to commoners, there's really only one PRC that you need to talk about: Survivor. Commoners have easier access to this PRC than any class in core; while other classes have useless saving throw bonuses that keep them out of the sweet, sweet Survivor goodness, commoners can enter as early as their second level. Of course, this means you get less levels to collect those sweet, sweet Commoner class features, so it can be a hard choice to make.

Commoners also multiclass very well; most of their class features are, in fact, advanced by levels in any other class. This makes them extremely versatile; they basically lose nothing for multiclassing, if XP penalties aren't being used (or if you're a race with Commoner as your favored class -- need to do more research on that.) How broken is that?

Breakpoints
-----------
Many people take one-level dips of commoner to get into Survivor. I recommend against this; Commoner has much more to offer than that. In general, any 3rd level is a possible breakpoint, giving you a bonus to every single save; alternate levels are good, too, for that lovely, lovely BAB bonus. Of course, Commoner 12 is literally as good as any class can possibly be in terms of BAB / save bonus -- you get +1 bab and a bonus to every single save, easily beating most levels of any other class in the game. Compare Commoner 12 to oh, say, every odd-numbered fighter level after the first, and the commoner is a clear winner. It also beats Rogue 20 -- how sad is that? The Rogue capstone, and Commoners get a better deal 8 levels earlier at level 12.

If I could just take Commoner 12 over and over again, I would. On the other hand, taking commoner all the way for that capstone (+1 BAB ftw!) is another good choice -- it sets you up perfectly to get another attack when you advance into Epic Commoner.


Feats
-----
Leadership, leadership, leadership. Nobody else gains as much from Leadership as a commoner. You can have any other class in the game doing your bidding -- how hot is that? You can have a wizard to cast spells, a cleric to buff, a monk to turn into a dragon for you to ride -- you name it. Or, if you really want to get broken, you can add another commoner.

Yes, it's a little cheesy to take a class that's already as good as a commoner and give them Leadership, but that's the way things roll when you're a high-powered class.


Strategy
--------
One of the commoner's best abilities is their knack at using WBL well -- after all, while wizards have expensive spellbooks to burn money on, and fighters have to buy all that armor for their nasty proficiencies, you can save it up and spend it as you like. Hiring other commoners to do things for you is a big plus. Paying wizards to cast spells on you works even better. At higher levels, you can even pay people to do the whole adventure for you!

Gaining a divine rank is another way to make your commoner much more effective. With the mere addition of Alter Reality as a salient divine ability, the slender advantages that casters did retain over you instantly disappear -- and that's in addition to all the other advantages that divinity offers. Definitely ask your DM if you can advance a divine rank as soon as possible.

Builds
------
Fred, Commoner 20.
Skill points to max listen and spot.
Focus on Wis and Charisma.
Take Leadership as soon as you can, and get a wizard.
Then, you'll always be the one to take watch. When you spot or hear something, order your wizard to handle it for you.
Use your money to hire many more commoners, who can swarm the enemy in mad lemming rushes to buy your wizard time.
In a pinch, your wizard can Polymorph you -- or your hirelings, even.

Any more suggestions or comments would be appreciated, especially more commoner tricks and commoner builds!

Signmaker
2008-05-20, 03:23 PM
You have learned the art well, young apprentice of the forum. Keep honing your abilities, and you will go far.

TheCountAlucard
2008-05-20, 03:24 PM
You can't take Leadership as your first feat; you have to be sixth level or higher to get it.

Otherwise, yeah, this is friggin' hilarious.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-20, 03:28 PM
Leadership is not available until level 6, so I suggest Fred gets some cats for protection until then.

Otherwise solid build suggestion.

May I suggest gauntlet as the weapon of choice. Not even the dreaded monks are proficient with those.

Aquillion
2008-05-20, 03:39 PM
I edited it to add some additional comparisons to show the awesomeness of Commoner 12 (best level ever!), to fix a few things like the above (whoops!), to fix some spelling errors and add a few other stray notes.

marjan
2008-05-20, 04:12 PM
which lets them ride or tame a much much stronger creature like a riding dog

Unless DM is banning it, I'd rather go with house-cat. Much stronger IMO.:smallcool:

Jimp
2008-05-20, 04:18 PM
Leadership, leadership, leadership. Nobody else gains as much from Leadership as a commoner. You can have any other class in the game doing your bidding -- how hot is that?

Sounds like a character concept to me.

Chronicled
2008-05-20, 04:47 PM
Aquillion, that was wonderful. I think I'm going to find a campaign for Fred to sneak into...

Kurald Galain
2008-05-20, 04:57 PM
Nice one...

UglyPanda
2008-05-20, 05:04 PM
How can you write a guide to commoners and not even mention profession? Fighters, Barbarians, and Aristocrats don't get profession because it's that good. I mean, who doesn't want (Ranks+wis+d20) gold a week? It only takes a little less than 7 years for a fifth level commoner with skill focus and 32 point buy to double his gold!

They're also easy to play. You have no bonus feats to pick, no spells to choose, no spellbooks to construct. It takes so little effort to optimize a Commoner because you there's almost nothing you can do to screw them up.

Okay, I'm done.

Flickerdart
2008-05-20, 05:19 PM
All jokes aside, a Commoner hiring out a Wizard would be an interesting character to play (of course, you're rolling the Wizard too). Two characters for the price of one.

Douglas
2008-05-20, 05:21 PM
May I suggest gauntlet as the weapon of choice. Not even the dreaded monks are proficient with those.
No, no, no. Live chickens (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=844086) are the best commoner weapon. The build in that thread will need considerable improvement to take full advantage of the commoner's power, but the Chicken Infested "flaw" is an excellent advantage and no other class is allowed to take it.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-20, 05:35 PM
Max Handle Animal, spend your WBL on a herd of cows. The stampede damage gets very ridiculous, very fast. :smallamused:

Nemoricus
2008-05-20, 05:50 PM
You, sir, have just made my night.

Excellent read, and very, very amusing. I salute thee.

I was maligning commoners just the other day in reference to the killer house cats, and now I see that they can be put to use serving the commoner.

I do hope that you have more of these to pull out of your hat.

JaxGaret
2008-05-20, 05:57 PM
Here's a Commoner build :smallsmile:

Commoner 1 (Spellfire Wielder)
Survivor 1
Survivor 2 (Wild Cohort)
Survivor 3
Survivor 4
Survivor 5 (Leadership)
Commoner 2
Commoner 3
Commoner 4 (Dragon Cohort)
Commoner 5
Commoner 6
Commoner 7 (Undead Leadership)
Commoner 8
Commoner 9
Commoner 10 (Improved Cohort)
Commoner 11
Commoner 12
Commoner 13 (Extra Followers)
Commoner 14
Commoner 15

Basically, your job is to stand there every round and ready an action to absorb spellfire, hopefully survive the battle, and let your friends do all the real work. Pick whatever race you like. Mongrelfolk works nicely for the big Con bonus.

greenknight
2008-05-20, 06:19 PM
How could you possibly do a Commoner guide without mentioning the Commoner's most potent weapon: the Commoner Railgun?

Of course, DMs do tend to hold that in reserve as their secret weapon of last resort. But the cat's been out of the bag for a while now, and pretty much everyone seems to know that the Commoner Railgun is the reason why the Commoner class is the most popular class choice in the game among NPCs.

Frosty
2008-05-20, 06:20 PM
commoners also have the very use Handle Animal skill. Abuse it to the fullest extent!

FMArthur
2008-05-20, 06:28 PM
I want to play an Epic Commoner now. With chickens.

wakazashi.juice
2008-05-20, 06:47 PM
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant!

quiet1mi
2008-05-20, 06:53 PM
where can i find the class survivor it seems too good to be true... and wow you make commoners sound really good.... hmm the ability to notice things (listen and spot) plus ride and handle animal makes the character formidable....

JaxGaret
2008-05-20, 07:12 PM
where can i find the class survivor

Savage Species.

UserClone
2008-05-20, 07:23 PM
It's a class in Savage Species. It actually has three good saving throw progressions and ZERO BAB. NONE. The MONK does it better.

Aquillion
2008-05-20, 08:06 PM
It's a class in Savage Species. It actually has three good saving throw progressions and ZERO BAB. NONE. The MONK does it better.I forgot to mention that part in the guide. That's the best part about going into Survivor from Commoner: Not only do you get early entry, but it's just about the only class that Commoners actually have to give some of their Commoner progression up to join.

Bizarrely, though, it's a good build for a leadership-commoner, given that your only job is going to be to have alert senses and not die. Actually, it makes for a good theme... picture yourself as Rincewind from Diskworld or something. (Rincewind would probably also have a few monk levels for the speed boost, though.)

JaxGaret
2008-05-20, 08:10 PM
Bizarrely, though, it's a good build for a leadership-commoner, given that your only job is going to be to have alert senses and not die.

Yep :smallsmile:

SoD
2008-05-21, 12:54 AM
May I suggest gauntlet as the weapon of choice. Not even the dreaded monks are proficient with those.

And, moneywise, at first level, the monk gets 5d4 gp. Whereas the commoner gets 5d4x10, that's 10 times the monks standard WBL, and that's only at first level!

Solo
2008-05-21, 12:58 AM
And, moneywise, at first level, the monk gets 5d4 gp. Whereas the commoner gets 5d4x10, that's 10 times the monks standard WBL, and that's only at first level!

Very true. That's only first level.

Aquillion
2008-05-21, 01:40 AM
No, no, no. Live chickens (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=844086) are the best commoner weapon. The build in that thread will need considerable improvement to take full advantage of the commoner's power, but the Chicken Infested "flaw" is an excellent advantage and no other class is allowed to take it.Oh, my. I can't believe I didn't know about that flaw... it really should be in the guide.

For those who don't want to bother reading that thread, it's a Dragon Magazine flaw, available to commoners only, that works as follows:
Chicken Infested: Whenever you draw a weapon or pull an item out of a countainer, you have a 50% chance of drawing a live chicken instead. No, we don't know where the chickens come from; it's your character.

Now, open up the SRD and note the following. First, preparing spell materials -- which would involve drawing them from a spell component pouch -- is a free action:

Unless these materials are elaborate preparing these materials is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.
And spell component pouches never run out of components. You don't actually need to be a caster; you can buy one cheap, even with your starting gold. Oh, and dropping an item is also a free action.

You can see where this is going. A chicken-infested commoner with a spell component pouch can, therefore, produce an arbitrary number of chickens as a free action. Yeah, sure, unlimited gold by selling them, impressive party tricks... who cares.

Now imagine your party is standing outside a dungeon, worried about what's inside. Before anyone can react, you've produced enough chickens to fill it to the bursting, until there's not enough room for anyone in there to breathe. Party being chased? Block off a hallway with chickens. Need battlefield alteration? Meet the new 'spell' my commoner can produce as a free action, which I call 'Wall of Chickens'.

Need to cross a ravine or pit? Fill it with chickens. Need to check for traps? There aren't very many traps that won't go off when ten thousand chickens are stampeded over them.

Team up with your wizard. The wizard uses Disintegrate to drop the BBEG in a pit, and you... bury them in chickens. Instantly.

Set up a Teleportation Circle into the BBEG's base. Stand over it. Produce chickens until their base literally explodes.

If you're ever in a situation where you can't survive, go for the broke and fill all of creation with chickens. Just imagine the reaction of people halfway around the world when every square inch of space in their world is suddenly and completely full of chickens.

It hardly needs to be said, but your party never needs to worry about starving again.

SoD
2008-05-21, 02:13 AM
Very true. That's only first level.

It sounds better with an explanation mark. And this thread seems to be taking the bad stuff, and, by clever use of puncuation and stuff like that, make it sound like it's good.

Edit: Oh, the chicken infested flaw reminds me of some other commoner-only flaws my friends were talking about once. I'm not sure if they made them up, or if they came from the same episode as chicken infested, but here they are:

Pig-Carrier: You carry a pig. The pig is exactly equal to your maximum heavy load. If your strength increases, the pig gets heavier. If your strength decreases, you better get a nice little cart. If the pig dies, or is moved more than 10 feet away from you, or is on the ground for more than 10 rounds a day, a pit fiend appears and destroys you. In exchange for this, you get an extra feat.
Smooth-Hat: You are wearing a hat. If you ever take your hat off, for any reason, or if it leaves your head, through your will or against it, a pit feind comes and drags your pitiful body down to the depths of hell. In exchange for this, you get an extra feat.
Not-Feeling-Well: You are dead, but hey! You get another feat!

The Rose Dragon
2008-05-21, 02:15 AM
You win the internets. Several of them. I'll have commoners deliver them to your house (I got them through Leadership, and they're so cheesy).

marjan
2008-05-21, 02:18 AM
I got them through Leadership, and they're so cheesy.

Did you also have them take the Leadership?:smallbiggrin:

Dumbledore lives
2008-05-21, 02:35 AM
If you're ever in a situation where you can't survive, go for the broke and fill all of creation with chickens. Just imagine the reaction of people halfway around the world when every square inch of space in their world is suddenly and completely full of chickens.


Is it alright if I sig this? It is awesome.

Bayar
2008-05-21, 03:10 AM
The best weapon to pick is the basket. Basketweaving commoners are one of the most powerful characters in the game and rival even Pun Pun.

Rutee
2008-05-21, 03:18 AM
First, look at their skill list. Commoners get several vital skills, .... they have use rope for kinky things!

So I have my next character.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-21, 03:34 AM
:amused: :amused: :amused: Hilarious! :amused: :amused: :amused:

Thank you! :smallsmile:

Storm Bringer
2008-05-21, 04:02 AM
other useful features of the commoner class:

You are the only class out thier that can pick up a sycthe and not look like a poser!

When you is bluffing your way past guards, you can say 'I am but a mere commoner' and mean it. THINK of the situational bonuses!

you can follow in the footsteps of some of historys greatest leaders! Ghenis Khan, Joesph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Bruce Stringsteen, all of these started thier lives as humble commoners and rose to greatness on the backs of thier charisma!

Green Bean
2008-05-21, 05:46 AM
I object to people calling the Commoner overpowered. In any real game, the DM would intervene to keep the Commoner's power level low enough to compete fairly with the other classes. Frankly, this so-called "Jimmy Olsen" Commoner is little more than a theoretical build.

The Rose Dragon
2008-05-21, 06:06 AM
Did you also have them take the Leadership?:smallbiggrin:

Nah, I feared for the cheese overload and resisted the temptation.


The best weapon to pick is the basket. Basketweaving commoners are one of the most powerful characters in the game and rival even Pun Pun.

OK, I've seen this thrown around, and I have to ask: why?

Oslecamo
2008-05-21, 06:13 AM
Commoner will be an exalted path for 4e characters, available at 31th level.

It's good to see that Wotc finally put comoners where they deserve.

However, I get the feel that it is riped of from the mmorpg comoners.

KIDS
2008-05-21, 06:54 AM
Lovely lovely and lovely, maybe not exactly on level of "Complete Samurai" but still very awesome! Thanks for writing this!

Bayar
2008-05-21, 10:37 AM
OK, I've seen this thrown around, and I have to ask: why?

The handbook to basketweaving (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873736)
A commoner that beat the Twice-betrayer of Shar (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=7057084)

Solo
2008-05-21, 10:46 AM
How foolish of me to have invested so much of my faith in casters.. Now I see that basket weaving commoners are the true path to ultimate power.

elliott20
2008-05-21, 10:53 AM
this thread is just too beautiful for words...

Moak
2008-05-21, 11:01 AM
2. Advantages
[...] they have ride and handle animal, which lets them ride or tame a much much stronger creature like a riding dog; [...]


...add in...this....


[...]
For the other classes, just look at the commoner's superior skillset -- commoners have Profession (which can grant unlimited gold at no risk!)

Next, rogues. I shouldn't even need to point this out, but commoners have Ride and Handle Animal as class skills -- both are very powerful, and can together net you as many animal servants as you can pay for, while you ride one yourself (something that can easily have more HP than the flimsy rogue!) Clearly, the commoner beats the rogue completely.[...]


That also means that you can VERY VERY EASILY BUY HOW MANY PET YOU WANT! And thanks to Handle Animal you can train them better than anyone else!
You,your Leadership and....your HORDES of animals!!!

Nohwl
2008-05-21, 02:09 PM
i might have to make a commoner to play as in my next campaign.

Telonius
2008-05-21, 02:26 PM
Hmm. You could also take the Delicious flaw to reliably draw aggro, allowing your party various attacks of opportunity as the monsters brush past them to get to you.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-21, 02:45 PM
Commoners: common for a reason.

Sebastian
2008-05-21, 03:01 PM
Why do you think there is not a commoner class for 4e? They dropped it because it is broken, I tell you, BROKEN!!!

And I'm willing to bet there are not housecats, either. :)

Thiel
2008-05-21, 03:06 PM
In a similar vein to the chicken there's the always reliable tidal wave of clubs and quarterstaffs. All it takes is a DC 12 Craft(Weaponsmithing) check. It requires neither tools or materials.

Chronos
2008-05-21, 03:44 PM
The best thing about this thread is that it actually does play to the strengths of the Commoner class. I hadn't noticed before that they get Listen and Spot as class skills: Those are actually very useful skills to have, and not easily available to most classes. So a commoner who puts all of his skill points into Listen and Spot is using his own class abilities effectively, and doing something that can't actually be done well by most classes.


In a similar vein to the chicken there's the always reliable tidal wave of clubs and quarterstaffs. All it takes is a DC 12 Craft(Weaponsmithing) check. It requires neither tools or materials.I know that this is a popular joke, but the rules for crafting quarterstaves actually do make sense. It's not true that making a staff requires neither tools nor materials: Rather, it requires materials costing 0 gold. If we're going to joke about the rules not making sense, let's at least pick rules that really don't make sense (Pun-Pun knows there's enough of those out there already).

Aquillion
2008-05-21, 05:29 PM
...add in...this....


That also means that you can VERY VERY EASILY BUY HOW MANY PET YOU WANT! And thanks to Handle Animal you can train them better than anyone else!
You,your Leadership and....your HORDES of animals!!!
New build.

Elan (or Warforged) commoner. Put all skill points in handle animal and either profession or craft.

Using your unlimited lifespan, make nigh infinite craft or profession checks, netting you NI gold. Spend this gold on NI animals, as well as NI copies of every beneficial item every printed anywhere; and hire NI hirelings for NI days; outfit your hirelings with every beneficial item ever printed, too. Order your commoners to retrieve any object or artifact that can't be obtained with money; with NI commoners armed with the best gear ever printed, chances are one will eventually succeed.

You are also assumed to constantly be under the effect of every beneficial buff that can be purchased for 3000 gold or less, since you can pay wizards to constantly cast them on you. You have unlimited wishes via either Candles of Invocation (if you want to be cheesy) or good old rings of three wishes (if you don't.) Your stats are all boosted by +5 inherent bonuses from tomes.

tyckspoon
2008-05-21, 05:55 PM
I know that this is a popular joke, but the rules for crafting quarterstaves actually do make sense. It's not true that making a staff requires neither tools nor materials: Rather, it requires materials costing 0 gold. If we're going to joke about the rules not making sense, let's at least pick rules that really don't make sense (Pun-Pun knows there's enough of those out there already).

Oh, then it's still fair to point out that the value-based rules for using Craft means you can nigh-instantly transform a quantity of wood into the same quantity of quarterstaves or clubs without using anything more than normal tools. With just the minimum successful check (DC 12 Weaponsmithing for a 'simple melee or thrown weapon') you can create 144 CP worth of quarterstaffs in one day's work. Alternately, you can't actually make a quarterstaff or club with Craft, because the zero/no numerical value of one breaks the math. It's senseless anyway.

AmberVael
2008-05-21, 05:57 PM
My favorite arena build that I've heard of used a Commoner with the Chicken Infested flaw, actually. Essentially the character just spent a ton of time out of the arena spawning chickens, then used their wealth to buy a Celestial Rooster.
And, well...
Ended up with a Half-Celestial chicken army.
(Though technically you can't apply half celestial to a chicken, but what would they be otherwise? I don't know how the player worked that out.)

marjan
2008-05-21, 06:11 PM
It's also worth noting that commoners are very RP friendly. Meaning: unlike some classes (like monk for example), they don't have any alignment restrictions and they usually don't have any implications of what you have to do to become one (like for example training in monastery), so they are the perfect opportunity to play a character with the background you have created.

Draz74
2008-05-21, 06:37 PM
The Adventures of Joe Wood. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=763260)
Seems timely for this thread. Note his extensive use of Handle Animal.

(Warning: long read.)

konfeta
2008-05-21, 07:14 PM
The only thing this build is really missing is 3 pages on extensive use of UMD.

marjan
2008-05-21, 07:16 PM
The only thing this build is really missing is 3 pages on extensive use of UMD.

No need for that. Commoner is powerful class even without the cheese that is UMD. And beside which of his skills would you neglect in order to put SPs in UMD? It would be pretty hard choice, I believe.

Solo
2008-05-22, 10:34 AM
No, no, no. Live chickens (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=844086) are the best commoner weapon. The build in that thread will need considerable improvement to take full advantage of the commoner's power, but the Chicken Infested "flaw" is an excellent advantage and no other class is allowed to take it.

What a fowl tactic...

Draz74
2008-05-22, 10:39 AM
What a fowl tactic...

Ow. :smallannoyed: Did you have to, Solo?

Solo
2008-05-22, 10:41 AM
Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-22, 10:43 AM
I demand a follow up. I want an Aristocrat guide!

Aristocrat: You suck.. but you have money. And everyone knows: Money CAN buy happiness.

Solo
2008-05-22, 10:52 AM
Aristocrat: You suck.. but you have money.

Screw the rules, I have money!

marjan
2008-05-22, 11:46 AM
Aristocrat: You suck.. but you have money. And everyone knows: Money CAN buy happiness.

That depends on what you suck... to get money. :smalleek:

Calinero
2008-05-22, 01:56 PM
I'm slightly ashamed of myself....I took this thread seriously for a bit. I'm extremely tempted to try making a commoner now.

Attilargh
2008-05-22, 02:27 PM
I demand a follow up. I want an Aristocrat guide!
The weird thing is, an Aristocrat isn't actually all that bad for an NPC class. He gets really good proficiencies, a fair hit die, bunch of good skills¹, some skill points and a good Will save. In fact, he makes a decent party face who's also capable of booting some backside in a pinch. I've actually wanted to play an Aristocrat for a while now.


¹Including Diplomancy and all the synergies - an elderly third-level half-elf Aristocrat is my favourite way of breaking the game. :smallamused:

Ędit: You know what? I might try my hand at this. Expect dull writing, bad humour and worse build advise sometime before next week, probably.
Ędit2: Never mind, there's no way I can top that.

Aquillion
2008-05-22, 10:17 PM
Truthfully, I considered the Aristocrat guide thing, but the problem is... Commoners are just so good. It seems pointless to give suggestions for people who want to play other classes when a commoner with Leadership can full the same role much more effectively.

But the DMG, as I recall, says that Aristocrats are close to passable as a player class. And WotC wouldn't make mistakes about the balance of player classes, would they?

Seriously, being the king is awesome

It's true that an Aristocrat will never (say) gain as much from Divine Power or Polymorph as a Commoner will. (Ok, fine, at level 1 or so they will get exactly as much. Shut up.) Nonetheless, there's an advantage in this -- as we all know, WEAKER BUILD = ROLEPLAYING! Those 5 points more BAB that a fighter has at level 20 is 5 more points of awesome that the Aristocrat can use in roleplaying their character.

I will show you, in this post, how to parley that roleplaying advantage Aristocrats have to your mechanical advantage; and how an Aristocrat can, in fact, roleplay themselves into an absurdly over-powered build.

But we have to set a few ground rules. An Aristocrat can't take UMD and fiddle around with magical items, or Profession and earn money with their own hands -- what are we, a filthy laborer? Likewise, while Leadership is quite suitable, you cannot expect an Aristocrat to call a social inferior a 'cohort'. If you take a cohort, plainly, it has to be another Aristocrat.

The Basic Aristocrat Build

Now, my strategy for an Aristocrat build would be simple. It's an old trick, but it makes perfect sense: You hire commoners. A Hireling, trained, costs 3 sp per day to hire. 'Trained' means they have at least one rank in Profession (the text in the Profession skill makes this clear).

So you order them to make profession checks. They make about half their profession check in gold. Assuming no wisdom mod, that's 2-21, or an average of 4.75 gold a week per trained hireling. You're paying them 21 silver a week, or 2.1 gold. They just have to roll a four or higher on their profession check to make you money. Don't look at me, I didn't write the rules.

But here's the best part: As an Aristocrat, it is perfectly in-character for you to be doing this. Aristocrats have the most powerful class feature in the entire game -- carte blanche justification to use just about any exploit they please, because, well, they're an aristocrat and they're supposed to be ruling the world. Obviously, if (say) candle of invocation cheese is possible, aristocrats have to use it or they wouldn't have been able to stay aristocrats.

Advanced Aristocrat Build

Of course, the problem with the above is that you're still paying all your serfs. True aristocrats don't do that. So, here's a suggestion: Play a Lawful Evil aristocrat. (This is not strictly necessary, but you may have a hard time getting it past with any other alignment.) Your character is a strong admirer of the orderly mind flayer hierarchy and the way they keep the 'lower classes' in line.

Hire your hirelings. Grit your teeth as you do it, since it pains you to actually pay your social inferiors (even in an arrangement that vastly undervalues their work), but it's necessary to get things started. As you earn more money, keep hiring more and more commoners. You should roughly be doubling your money every week, on average.

After you've earned 1530 gold or so, hire a wizard to Mindrape a somewhat lower-level wizard into absolute obedience to you (this could be tricky, but with your unlimited source of gold, you should be able to get at least some wizard in a position to be Mindraped.) Allow your new pet wizard to level up, and have them learn Mindrape. Then have them mindrape all your hirelings. If push comes to shove you could use alternate methods to work this out -- Diplomacy, Leadership (but you'd need to be level 19 to get a cohort who can cast Mindrape), etc. But, really, you're an Aristocrat -- do you really want to be negotiating with some hopped-up lower-class toadmaker, much less calling him a 'cohort'? When it's absolutely necessary to deal with them, a strictly business arrangement is much preferable. Still, social skills might be useful in getting your 'B' wizard to the 'A' wizard so they can be mindraped, and in convincing the 'A' wizard to go along with it.

Anyway, once you have all your hirelings, there's no reason to stop there. Troll for low-level wizards and adventuring parties, having your wizard-slave mindrape them to your cause as well. This is a perfectly valid and totally in-character strategy, since you were clearly meant to rule your social inferiors by virtue of being an aristocrat -- wizards and sorcerers have their powers to better serve you, under your wise guidance (Note: You probably don't actually have that many points in wisdom. However, you can mindrape them into thinking you're as wise as you want.)

Once you've accumulated enough wizards high enough level to cast Greater Celerity and Contingency, start going after higher-level ones. You'll probably need at least a few very high-level wizards to find them, but once the battle starts, it's not hard to force a fight between wizards into a simple duel over who has more people capable of casting Greater Celerity -- and you're going to win that one. Your lower-level wizards use their celerity to swarm with debuffs and other nasty effects, interrupting whatever the target wanted to do (and their contingency, if it goes off); then, once things are totally under control and the enemy's will save has been sufficiently eroded, your higher-level wizards use their own celerities to cut in and mindrape away.

Taking out other full casters proceeds in much the same way, but even faster because they usually can't Greater Celerity. Don't forget to take over any local government, too, so you can order anyone with the slightest magical talent brought to you for indoctrination. Aww, who are we kidding, we're going to end up mindraping every single person in the kingdom eventually anyway -- it's a 9th level spell, yes, but it costs nothing, and you can simply mindrape your citizens into devoting their entire lives to becoming level 20 wizards, until you have as many as you need.

...I mentioned earlier that it would probably be good to be lawful evil for this. However, if you're not evil, don't worry. Just replace 'mindrape' in the above plan with 'programmed amnesia'. There: no [evil] tag = completely moral for all applications. Remember, you're an aristocrat so this is your job -- lawful neutral, heck, go ahead and do it when you're lawful good. You're destined to rule, right? The world is a better place with you in charge.

For your background, say that you're a deposed ruler (or your family was deposed when you were young and your parents killed and yadda yadda.) You know the drill. The important part is that you're just taking back what's rightfully yours... while punishing the filthy, filthy lower classes for their treasonous failure to support your father (those vile, baseless rumors about his pleasure-dungeon and all those missing peasant girls probably had something to do with it, too.) If they decided to listen to the rabble-rousers and dared to raise their hands against your father -- well, you're just restoring the natural order, and that's the very definition of good, isn't it?

Just don't let them call it 'mindrape' in your presence. Programmed amnesia, please. You're merely acting as a loving father-figure to your people, helping them forget the filthy lies those rabble-rousers put inside their heads. And making them worship you forever and ever, so it doesn't happen again... but it's for their own good.

Chronicled
2008-05-22, 10:49 PM
Might we have the joy of getting Warrior/Expert/Adept guides in the future? These past two are just too good.

"Aquillion: Just when you thought life couldn't get any better... it did."

Solo
2008-05-22, 10:56 PM
Adept Guide:

Survive long enough to get Polymorph. Then go to town.

Chronos
2008-05-23, 12:44 AM
Nah, the real secret to being an Adept is to be a kobold. That way, you're still CR 1 at level four, and all you ever see are first-level adventurers, in groups of four at a time. Web, burning hands, and if any survive, whack 'em with your stick. Then go back to bed, refresh spells, and wait for tomorrow's conveniently-wrapped bundle of XP.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-23, 12:48 AM
Nah, the real secret to being an Adept is to be a kobold. That way, you're still CR 1 at level four, and all you ever see are first-level adventurers, in groups of four at a time. Web, burning hands, and if any survive, whack 'em with your stick. Then go back to bed, refresh spells, and wait for tomorrow's conveniently-wrapped bundle of XP.

And take Dragonwrought Kobold for your first level feat. Be Venerable for +3 INT/WIS/CHA.

Cuddly
2008-05-23, 12:59 AM
And spend a feat on something Epic.

Bayar
2008-05-23, 01:33 AM
The best build would be :

Orc/Warforged/Human - choose one
Commoner 5/Expert 5/Aristocrat 5/Barbarian 5

You can start off by growing weeds and **** as a Commoner, gain more experience in your profession and advance to an Expert in that field, gain lots of money and become an Aristocrat and just go berserk from all the power you now have by raging after you taken a level in Barbarian.


Too bad that we dont have commoner PrC. The Diligent Sheephearder PrC would probably give out Leadersheep and you could get a Riding ram as your cohort. :smallbiggrin:

Green Bean
2008-05-23, 01:50 AM
But then you'll miss out on Commoner 12, which is better than many classes' capstone.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-23, 02:17 AM
Might we have the joy of getting Warrior/Expert/Adept guides in the future?

No, because warriors are seriously overpowered.

Chronicled
2008-05-23, 05:24 PM
No, because warriors are seriously overpowered.

Um, they don't get any BAB increase from Divine Power. How is that overpowered?

SurlySeraph
2008-05-23, 06:44 PM
Um, they don't get any BAB increase from Divine Power. How is that overpowered?

First, the Warrior has a good Fortitude save. Honestly, do you not see how powerful that is? Will saves only come into play when you're up against powerful magic or terrifying creatures. These are so powerful that running away in terror or being mind-controlled are the safer solutions. There really is no good reason to try to succeed on a will save. Reflex saves only come up when you're trying to doge something, and never include save-or-dies - they're usually just to avoid direct-damage spells. Since the Warrior has d8 hit dice, he'll never NEED to avoid damage. Fortitude, though, comes up against death spells, disease, poison, the monk's Stunning Fist - everyday concerns that are particularly deadly.

Second, the Warrior is proficient in all simple weapons, and all martial weapons, and all armor, AND all shields. He could come at you with anything. He could have a sickle and buckler in one hand and a heavy crossbow in the other and wear half-plate. He could have a trident in one hand, a spiked tower shield in the other, and wear hide armor. You don't know which! How can you possibly beat someone when you can't even guess how he's going to fight?

Warriors can easily defeat wizards; wizards rely on preparation time, but prepartion time is USELESS against enemies who can't be prepared for! Warriors regularly kill Batman wizards, when those Wizards have prepared their spells for the day on the expectation that they would be fighting acid-based extraplanar shapeshifting stealthy ethereal undead chaotic-good-aligned sorcerer/monks and have not left any spell slots open for Teleportation or Plane Shift or Expeditious Retreat or Fly or other spells that they can use to get away.

And then there are the skills. Sure, the aristocrat's skill list overlaps a lot with the warrior's skill list, as does its hit die and weapon and armor proficiency. But do aristocrats get Climb? What about Jump? An aristocrat is screwed against a warrior. The warrior has a higher base attack bonus, and if the aristocrat's manservants carry him to a safe place atop his carriage... the warrior can climb up after him. Even if the aristocrat crosses a short bridge across a ravine and then cuts the bridge after him, the warrior can jump across. There is no escape from an angry warrior.

And that's without even going into the cheese possible with Handle Animal and Ride. Everyone knows the power of a commoner riding a trained horse. Now imagine that commoner with twice as many hit points and twice the attack bonus. Oh, and any martial weapon, shield, and armor he wants. That's the warrior.

Now do you see how broken it is?

TheCountAlucard
2008-05-23, 10:09 PM
Now do you see how broken it is?

Whoa! I just realized... with the NPC classes, it's like Rock-Paper-Scissors or something... :smalltongue:

Chronicled
2008-05-23, 10:26 PM
and if the aristocrat's manservants carry him to a safe place atop his carriage... the warrior can climb up after him. Even if the aristocrat crosses a short bridge across a ravine and then cuts the bridge after him, the warrior can jump across. There is no escape from an angry warrior.

:biggrin:

Masterfully done.

monty
2008-05-23, 10:51 PM
I'm really tempted to play a gestalt Commoner // Aristocrat now. Can someone help me with a backstory for that?

Chronos
2008-05-23, 11:59 PM
Don't do it, monty. Everyone knows the Count of Monte Cristo build is way overpowered. You'll overshadow everyone else, and nobody will have any fun.

mabriss lethe
2008-05-24, 01:01 PM
Don't do it, monty. Everyone knows the Count of Monte Cristo build is way overpowered. You'll overshadow everyone else, and nobody will have any fun.

I'd always heard that the legendary Monte Cristo build used Expert instead of Commoner

averagejoe
2008-05-24, 01:24 PM
Speaking of roleplaying advantages, that's another great reason to play commoner. Everyone knows that the really good heros come from commoner stock, so your group will automatically put you in a central hero role when you play commoner. They'll be happy to do nothing but support you and make you the main character once they realize how clearly right this is in terms of roleplaying.

Tam_OConnor
2008-05-25, 12:19 PM
So, I ran a campaign a while back, made up of entirely NPC classes. I thought I could handle the cheese, since it was only a one-shot. No, not so much. But even in comparison to the brokenness of all the other characters, that Commoner was beating the tar out of everyone else. And she hadn't even taken Handle Animal! If she had, that could have totally trashed the adventure...

Believe me, Commoners make Pun-Pun look like a little girl with bows in his non-existent kobold hair. That's how overpowered they are.

chiasaur11
2008-05-25, 02:42 PM
So, I ran a campaign a while back, made up of entirely NPC classes. I thought I could handle the cheese, since it was only a one-shot. No, not so much. But even in comparison to the brokenness of all the other characters, that Commoner was beating the tar out of everyone else. And she hadn't even taken Handle Animal! If she had, that could have totally trashed the adventure...

Believe me, Commoners make Pun-Pun look like a little girl with bows in his non-existent kobold hair. That's how overpowered they are.

Why do you think so much effort was given to starting the Kobold as a commoner?

There's a reason for that.

NephandiMan
2008-05-27, 04:16 PM
Aquillion doesn't win this thread. Aquillion doesn't win the Internet. Aquillion must be drinking Powerthirst, because he wins EVERYTHING FOREVER!

On a serious note, this guide is a useful reminder that we must be very careful in considering not only the evidence in favor of a given argument, but also - no, especially - the evidence against it, lest we reach...untenable conclusions.