Ok, I must know... who did it?

[SamTheCleric]

Which one of you, one day... said "verisimilitude". In 17 years of playing RPGs, starting with 2nd ed... I have NEVER heard that word being used. I come here and it is the rock solid defense of everyone who wants realistic fantasy instead of fantasy-fantasy.

For those of you (like me) who only had a vague understanding of the word:


verisimilitude

Main Entry:
veri·si·mil·i·tude Listen to the pronunciation of verisimilitude
Pronunciation:
\-sə-ˈmi-lə-ˌtüd, -ˌtyüd\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Latin verisimilitudo, from verisimilis verisimilar, from veri similis like the truth
Date:
circa 1576

1 : the quality or state of being verisimilar 2 : something verisimilar

Well, that's not help...


verisimilar

Main Entry:
veri·sim·i·lar Listen to the pronunciation of verisimilar
Pronunciation:
\ˌver-ə-ˈsi-mə-lər, -ˈsim-lər\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Latin verisimilis
Date:
1681

1 : having the appearance of truth : probable 2 : depicting realism (as in art or literature)

Ok, so who decided to bust out a word from FIFTEEN SEVENTY SIX. I believe that too many people have come to use this word, especially when "realism" suffices.

So tell me, which of the low-down dirty forum posters decided they wanted to sound smart and used this word? It has turned into the fad that is the bane of us all... and the banner under which all supporters of "older editions" march.

[Draz74]

People just said "realism," until they got tired of reading responses that said, "Duh, you idiot, you already lost any chance of having realism by having elves or orcs or fireballs."

So they started using "verisimilitude" because it was a perfect loophole in this stupid, trigger-happy, totally-beside-the-point objection. No party poopers have yet managed to argue effectively that a world with monsters and magic can't be verisimilar (perhaps because the word is archaic!).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

"Truth" is far more accurate when talking about an RPG than "Realism". I'm a 7ft tall cat-person who shoots beams of raw magic might from my eyes, realism went out the window about 6 months ago. Versmillitude, however, is still maintained as long as I run him like an actual person.

[Renegade Paladin]

Main Entry: re·al·ism
1: concern for fact or reality and rejection of the impractical and visionary
We're playing in a game where magic is real, even without magic it's possible to jump around enough to come out of a huge ball of fire completely unsinged, and the gods directly intervene in mortal affairs every single day. Concern for fact and reality's got nothing to do with it. :smallamused: So no, "realism" does not suffice; what everyone's looking for is the phrase internal consistency.

[Matthew]

That was MrNexx, as I recall. He was the first person on this forum I saw use it and stick it in his signature. Until then we were using 'suspension of disbelief', which is a clumsy way of saying the same thing.

[Crow]

Think internal consistency which contributes to willing suspension of disbelief.

[SamTheCleric]

MrNexx you say?

*scowls*

:smalltongue:

[Ravyn]

I prefer "internal consistency", personally. I think you're overblowing the issue, though--what most people are looking for is knowing that the rules of the worlds in which they are working in are consistent with themselves. (At least, that's what I usually use "verisimilitude" for.) It's just as important an issue in fantasy-fantasy, as you put it, as in real fantasy.

[Nebo_]

I use that word a fair bit.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

MrNexx you say?

*scowls*

:smalltongue:Honestly, why does this bug you. We're inventing new words all the time. 1337 speak is almost it's own language now. This is just using the best word to describe a concept possible. So what if it's old, so is the best wine.

[SamTheCleric]

Please don't take this as overly serious... :smallsmile:

[averagejoe]

I seem to remember a Pratchett novel where someone mispronounced the word. Probably Sergeant Colon.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah I use "Internally Consistent" most of the time.

[TheThan]

Honestly, why does this bug you. We're inventing new words all the time. 1337 speak is almost it's own language now. This is just using the best word to describe a concept possible. So what if it's old, so is the best wine.

Speaking of inventing words. Sometimes its not a good idea.
Take for example:

Ginormous

It’s cute when a 8 year old says it. When an adult says it its obnoxious. Come on see for yourself, and say it… See what I mean, obnoxious…

[Neon Knight]

You know, once I wanted to make a post against verisimilitude or internal consistency, or whatever, but in the end I came to my senses, got a good dose of subjectivity, and realized I really didn't care what a bunch of people on the internet thought and whether they cared about it or not.

I think that's a good stance to have.

[Raum]

'Verisimilitude' is English! Why not use it when speaking the language? I also recommend words like 'expatiate' and 'lexicon'! Yes, I obfuscated the joke...not much though. :)

[Eldariel]

'Verisimilitude' is English! Why not use it when speaking the language? I also recommend words like 'expatiate' and 'lexicon'! Yes, I obfuscated the joke...not much though. :)

Lexicon is widely used scientific term, so I think you've got it in a bad company there. Linguistics books really hammered it home for me.

[Starsinger]

Until then we were using 'suspension of disbelief', which is a clumsy way of saying the same thing.

Willing suspension of disbelief in fact, which seems to imply that there's unwilling suspension of disbelief.

[Fhaolan]

Willing suspension of disbelief in fact, which seems to imply that there's unwilling suspension of disbelief.

Oh, I love stuff like this.

Unwilling suspension of disbelief... the only scenarios I can come up with off the top of my head involve ginormous (HA!) caveats involving hypnotism, mind control, and the like.

[JaxGaret]

I <3 this thread.

Also, I just used both verisimilitude and internally consistent over in the 4e Minions thread, before I even checked this thread out. Though admittedly I was using internal consistency as a description of what having verisimilitude implies...

[Project_Mayhem]

I'm pretty sure that I'd come across verisimilitude way before I joined any forums.

I recall using it in English or Drama.

[Chronos]

Willing suspension of disbelief in fact, which seems to imply that there's unwilling suspension of disbelief.I would say that someone who goes to see a horror movie, and then can't sleep that night for fear of zombies, has suffered from unwilling suspension of disbelief.

[JadedDM]

Yeah, it was all Mr. Nexx.

His other word, "Nexx-tastic" didn't catch on at all. :smallamused:

[JaxGaret]

I would say that someone who goes to see a horror movie, and then can't sleep that night for fear of zombies, has suffered from unwilling suspension of disbelief.

I hate that. I simply can't go to a horror movie and come home and forget about it, it almost always lingers with me.

And I generally have a strong willpower otherwise, too. It's weird. I can't explain it.

[Nonanonymous]

I was actually expecting another thread where someone was ridiculously perplexed and amused by the Buer/roving mauler again.

[Project_Mayhem]

I would say that someone who goes to see a horror movie, and then can't sleep that night for fear of zombies, has suffered from unwilling suspension of disbelief.

I agree, but for me swap horror movie and zombies for /b/ :smallwink:

[shadow_archmagi]

I would say that someone who goes to see a horror movie, and then can't sleep that night for fear of zombies, has suffered from unwilling suspension of disbelief.


*applaud*

Brilliant. He tried to use logic and you beat it down with common sense.

[tyckspoon]

I agree, but for me swap horror movie and zombies for /b/ :smallwink:

/b/ is real. That reaction is merely justified fear for and/or of humanity.

[Raum]

Willing suspension of disbelief in fact, which seems to imply that there's unwilling suspension of disbelief.

Oh, I love stuff like this.

Unwilling suspension of disbelief... the only scenarios I can come up with off the top of my head involve ginormous (HA!) caveats involving hypnotism, mind control, and the like.
How about any belief mandated by an authority? Whether a state religion, a professor telling you there's 'one true version of history', or a GM's stated infallibility. (Hehe) They're all potentially unwilling suspensions of disbelief.

[Timberboar]

One two three NOT IT!

[Aquillion]

From the OED:
realism, a mode of writing that gives the impression of recording or ‘reflecting’ faithfully an actual way of life. The term refers, sometimes confusingly, both to a literary method based on detailed accuracy of description (i.e. verisimilitude) and to a more general attitude that rejects idealization, escapism, and other extravagant qualities of romance in favour of recognizing soberly the actual problems of life.
Using verisimilitude is just being more specific. D&D worlds should give the appearance of being real within the boundaries of their own description; I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

But when you use 'realism', people think you mean the second definition (which goes directly against D&D.) Hence, verisimilitude is a better term for our purposes; it refers merely to the appearance of truth, rather than being rigidly true to real-world laws.

[JaxGaret]

I was actually expecting another thread where someone was ridiculously perplexed and amused by the Buer/roving mauler again.

There once was a Wizard who loved lions, and thought they were the noblest and finest of species.

One day this Wizard was walking along a beach.

The Wizard looked down, and saw a starfish.

The Wizard had an idea.

The Wizard had an awful idea.

The Wizard had a wonderful, awful idea.

[LibraryOgre]

Yeah, it was all Mr. Nexx.

His other word, "Nexx-tastic" didn't catch on at all. :smallamused:

I still don't understand why. It was a nexxtastic way of explaining how something is totally, and utterly awesome... with just a hint of sarcastic edge to it.

But, yes, OP (whose name I can't be bothered to look up), I was the one who started throwing around "verisimilitude". I would even adjective it, from time to time, describing things as "verisimilitudinous."

As mentioned above, I got sick of people saying "You're talking about realism when it comes to magic! That's silly!" So I switched to a word that more closely fit the definition of "realism" as I was using... the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.

It's a nexxtastic word for the thought.

[Matthew]

Hah, hah. I wondered whether you'd turn up, Mark. It's fairly clear why Nexxtastic didn't take off - you dumped the user name and made a new account! :smallbiggrin:

[SamTheCleric]

I prefer nexxtastic to verisimilitude. :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

I'm a little surprised we don't use truthiness. It's a much more comprehensible and easily-spellable word for the concept.

[SamTheCleric]

Thesaurusichu, I choose You!

Synonym attack, now!


Main Entry: verisimilitude
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: Appearance of truth or authenticity.
Synonyms: believability, color, credibility, credibleness, creditability, creditableness, plausibility, plausibleness

[JadedDM]

It's a great word. The fact that nobody uses "Nexxtastic" is, frankly, a Nexxtastrophe. :smallbiggrin:

[Solo]

Which one of you, one day... said "verisimilitude". In 17 years of playing RPGs, starting with 2nd ed... I have NEVER heard that word being used. I come here and it is the rock solid defense of everyone who wants realistic fantasy instead of fantasy-fantasy.


Ok, so who decided to bust out a word from FIFTEEN SEVENTY SIX. I believe that too many people have come to use this word, especially when "realism" suffices.

So tell me, which of the low-down dirty forum posters decided they wanted to sound smart and used this word? It has turned into the fad that is the bane of us all... and the banner under which all supporters of "older editions" march.

A Wizard did it, of course.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a8/Sarda%288bit%29.jpg

[Waffles]

One guy has it in his sig. That's where I learned it from, actually.

[Cuddly]

Please don't take this as overly serious... :smallsmile:

I'm not. I like your hyperbole.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I was, but only because I've seen people get a lot worse over a lot less.

[Starsinger]

Thesaurusichu, I choose You!

Synonym attack, now!

From now on I'm using color instead of verisimilitude.

[Charity]

It's a great word. The fact that nobody uses "Nexxtastic" is, frankly, a Nexxtastrophe. :smallbiggrin:

Although I hear Nexxtacular is gaining popularity I don't like to use such Nexxtraints to my Nexxcabulary.


Mr Hall, we reject your chosen name and substitute our own... try not to get too cranky

[Matthew]

I fear that this thread has become something of a Nexxus...

[Charity]

We are all looking for the Nexxt big thing.

[tyckspoon]

I'm Nexxstatic. It's not often one gets to be present at the start of the Nexxt major evolution of language!

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Hah, hah. I wondered whether you'd turn up, Mark. It's fairly clear why Nexxtastic didn't take off - you dumped the user name and made a new account! :smallbiggrin:

At least he is still the Christmas Ogre! :smallcool:

[LibraryOgre]

Hah, hah. I wondered whether you'd turn up, Mark. It's fairly clear why Nexxtastic didn't take off - you dumped the user name and made a new account! :smallbiggrin:

Realize that I used the nickname Nexx for more than a decade on-line; still do on Dragonsfoot, where changing it would be a pain. I still refer to myself as Nexx when talking to myself (sometimes). My ex-wife called me Mark or Nexx more or less interchangeably throughout our marriage, and many of my real-life friends know me by that name.

And I'll probably be using the Christmas Ogre as my icon for a while. I actually have it up for both MySpace and Facebook. One of my co-workers, having seen it on Facebook, considers it a good likeness.

[Coplantor]

I read this post just to say "A wizard did it", and i find out that i was ninja'd like 24 hours ago, that sucks. Anyway, verisimilitude rocks! Is much better than realism because realism means "similiar to reality" and verisimilitude is oftenly used (and thus oftenly means) belivabilty (or something like that).

[Hairb]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but verisimilitude crops up at least once in the DMG. Several times, in fact. Can't remember where exactly, but it had a fair wodge of paragraphs all to its own.

Does this even count as raining?

EDIT: pg 129, 3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide.

[Matthew]

Realize that I used the nickname Nexx for more than a decade on-line; still do on Dragonsfoot, where changing it would be a pain. I still refer to myself as Nexx when talking to myself (sometimes). My ex-wife called me Mark or Nexx more or less interchangeably throughout our marriage, and many of my real-life friends know me by that name.

And I'll probably be using the Christmas Ogre as my icon for a while. I actually have it up for both MySpace and Facebook. One of my co-workers, having seen it on Facebook, considers it a good likeness.

Sure, I know, but the implication was that you didn't coin "Nexx-tastic" here until much more recently. :smallwink:



Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but verisimilitude crops up at least once in the DMG. Several times, in fact. Can't remember where exactly, but it had a fair wodge of paragraphs all to its own.

Does this even count as raining?

Not really. If you do a search here for verisimilitude you can see that it hugely increased in use during 2007. About 75% of threads are 2007/8 versus 25% 2004-6.

[Hairb]

Sure, I know, but the implication was that you didn't coin "Nexx-tastic" here until much more recently. :smallwink:


Not really. If you do a search here for verisimilitude you can see that it hugely increased in use during 2007. About 75% of threads are 2007/8 versus 25% 2004-6.

I guess not then. It's a useful concept in any case, and more power to those who make the distinction.

[TempusCCK]

Yeah, verisimilitude is just a good way for me to not want to smack someone in the face when I talk about how weapons should work in D&D and they claim that "realism doesn't exist in D&D" Yes, but basic physics works on the same level as real life, and that is verisimilitudimal!

[Jack Mann]

It's also a term that comes up a lot when discussing speculative fiction.

[LibraryOgre]

Sure, I know, but the implication was that you didn't coin "Nexx-tastic" here until much more recently. :smallwink:

Hel, I just figured it was the obvious word to use. :smallbiggrin:


Not really. If you do a search here for verisimilitude you can see that it hugely increased in use during 2007. About 75% of threads are 2007/8 versus 25% 2004-6.

Though, to be fair, does that include the use in my sig? I know I don't post on every thread, but...

[Matthew]

Hel, I just figured it was the obvious word to use. :smallbiggrin:

Ah well, you know what they say about assumptions... if people were that clever they'd have thought of verisimilitude before you. :smallwink:



Though, to be fair, does that include the use in my sig? I know I don't post on every thread, but...

Good question; the answer appears to be "no," though it's a little hard to tell, because you bolded it in your signature. I assume it would be that sort of orange colour if it were.

There was apparently a nine fold rise in the use of verisimilitude during 2007 in the Gaming and D20 Forum.

[Chronos]

If you searched using Google, it includes the sig. If you searched using the board's own search engine, it doesn't.

[Charity]

Just to pick a few nits (and I do understand that the popularity of the word clearly hit a steep incline with a 9 fold increase), the sample size has increased (and not all that steadily) the number of posters has increased as has the number of posts... and I vaguely remember there was a sharpish increase in 2007 for some odd reason... Anyone know why that was btw?

Yes I know pedant of the week award Matt, I wear it with pride.

[Matthew]

If you searched using Google, it includes the sig. If you searched using the board's own search engine, it doesn't.

Aye, board's engine.



Just to pick a few nits (and I do understand that the popularity of the word clearly hit a steep incline with a 9 fold increase), the sample size has increased (and not all that steadily) the number of posters has increased as has the number of posts... and I vaguely remember there was a sharpish increase in 2007 for some odd reason... Anyone know why that was btw?

Yes I know pedant of the week award Matt, I wear it with pride.

No idea, you foot! :smallwink: We don't have access to the board's membership list anymore. Anyway, stop wondering about this rubbish and go and read my wicked cool journal entry about adventure in Garham.

[Charity]

Didn't Gorbash Kazdar publish some user list stats a while back?

I could search but.... you know.

Hey Gorby have you still got those year by year user numbers?

*Waves hands frantically trying to get his attention... in a good way*

OK OK I'm off to read it now...

[Mr. Friendly]

I skipped page 2, but I know I saw it used with great frequency on the Wizards board before seeing it here.

It's simple memetics - one person uses it and voila everyone is.

Never underestimate the lengths to which bored nerds on the internet will go in order to prove they are "right".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/ButtWeasal/duty_calls.png

[Telonius]

I'm a little surprised we don't use truthiness. It's a much more comprehensible and easily-spellable word for the concept.

I fully endorse this idea. Versimilitude, you are on notice.

[Rutee]

Number Two threat to America: REALITY NAZIS

[JadedDM]

I can kind of understand the OP's meaning, though. I remember when 3E came out, and suddenly the freaking word-of-the-day was 'intuitive.' God, I got sick of that word. :smalltongue:

[SamTheCleric]

Ah... but now we must combine them.

Intuitive Verismilitude!

[Waspinator]

Ah... but now we must combine them.

Intuitive Verismilitude!

You fool! What have you done?!?

[Fizban]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but verisimilitude crops up at least once in the DMG. Several times, in fact. Can't remember where exactly, but it had a fair wodge of paragraphs all to its own.

Does this even count as raining?

EDIT: pg 129, 3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide.

Late to the party as usual, but that's just what I was going to say. That's where I learned the word in the first place, and I'm very disappointed how long it took for someone to post it. It's in the freaking DMG, seriously.

[Counterpower]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I learned it from the DMG. That's the first place I saw it used.

[puppyavenger]

Number Two threat to America: REALITY NAZIS

watct out Bears, they're gaining!

[Valairn]

This thread is going to turn into someone making a new RPG based off of Intuitive Verisimilitude!

[LibraryOgre]

I also learned it from the DMG. But I learned it from the one written by Gygax, before there was a 3rd edition.

[Tura]

I probably represent a very small minority here, but what the heck. I've used realism instead of verisimilitude because I actually meant it. (*Ducks.*)

OK then. I won't bring realism in your DnD. But can I bring it in mine if I feel like it?

Realism, as in
a more general attitude that rejects idealization, escapism, and other extravagant qualities of romance in favour of recognizing soberly the actual problems of lifeis NOT incompatible with fantasy.

Take George R.R. Martin's "A song of ice and fire". Sure, it's low magic, but it has dragons, and wights, and sorcery, and resurrections. And yet, it's much, much more realistic than your average "normal" literature. Take horror stories. If they're any good (think Lovecraft and Poe and Clive Barker, not your average "let's get naked and then let's get killed" teen horror movie), they don't idealize anything at all.

DnD, may seem incompatible with realism, at least out of the box and if you follow the example of published settings and adventures. But while the rules don't help or promote realism in roleplaying, and occasionally hinder it (ah, objective alignment again), they don't outright exclude it, either.

Characters who can, with a nod, make a country explode don't hurt realism. A story that allows them to do so without any moral, political and social complications whatsoever, does. The rules are not completely irrelevant, but they are secondary.

[Curmudgeon]

Ok, so who decided to bust out a word from FIFTEEN SEVENTY SIX. I believe that too many people have come to use this word, especially when "realism" suffices.
You've got the wrong idea about what old means when it comes to words. Old means a word is a well-established. "Antiquated" means a word that has lost its usage through age, and "verisimilitude" isn't antiquated.
house -noun
Etymology: Middle English hous, from Old English hūs; akin to Old High German hūs house
Date: before 12th century

1: a building that serves as living quarters for one or a few families : home
do·mi·cile -noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin domicilium, from domus
Date: 15th century

1: a dwelling place : place of residence : home If age were a bad thing when it came to words, the Anglo-Saxon word "house" would have gone out of style after the Normal conquest of England (1066) introduced Latinate (i.e., derived from Latin) vocabulary. That didn't happen. English is a mongrel language, accepting additions from all sources. Synonyms that have stuck around for centuries provide useful differences of nuance, otherwise they would have faded away. "Verisimilitude" is a fine word, except for those who have trouble making their mouths function for six syllables. Is there something you'd like to share about your oral limitations, SamTheCleric?

[Justin_Bacon]

Ok, so who decided to bust out a word from FIFTEEN SEVENTY SIX. I believe that too many people have come to use this word, especially when "realism" suffices.

The problem with "realism" is that people then immediately start talking about how dragons aren't real. Most of those people are engaged in sophistry, but "verisimilitude" is, in fact, a more accurate and appropriate term for what most people mean when they say that they're looking for D&D to be "realistic" (and it neatly prevents the sophistry).

My earliest encounters with the word in relation to RPGs date back more than 15 years to FidoNet (where, unsurprisingly, the exact same rhetorical forays were being used). So I doubt you're going to track down the origins of its use in RPG design theory here.

Re: 1576. I don't think you quite understand how etymology works. That's when the word was invented. You may not be aware of this, but there are lots of old words in common usage. Like all of the words in this sentence, for example.

Verisimilitude is not, in fact, a dead word or an archaic word. It is, at worst, a technical term. It remains a well-understood principle in literary criticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude), among other places.

[SamTheCleric]

Justin Bacon, Curmudgeon...

Apparently neither of you understand hyperbole.

Please see where I said "don't take this thread too seriously." If you both take offense to this thread just because you run around screaming "verismilitude" at every opportunity, then I feel bad for you.

...

Also, the latest 4e preview has a sentence in it that brings me endless joy.


That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game. Instead, we wanted rules that were evocative.

Intuitive Verismilitude be damned.

[Chronos]

That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game. Instead, we wanted rules that were evocative.And many players are quite annoyed by the fact that WotC is making simulation/game out to be a dichotomy. Of course a simulation can be a game, and one of the reasons people like D&D is that it is a simulation.

Tura, that may be one of the definitions of "realism", but I think the better term for what you're describing would be "gritty". A game could break verisimilitude, while still being gritty, or vice-versa, and of course verisimilitude and grittiness are both independent of whether you've got dragons and wizards.

[Justin_Bacon]

Apparently neither of you understand hyperbole.

I'm afraid there's a difference between "hyperbole" and "completely wrong".

But apparently your intention was simply to troll the forum and attack those who aren't pleased with the direction 4th Edition appears to be going. Oddly you chose to do so by accusing them of being too smart to appreciate 4th Edition.

An odd tack to take.

[SamTheCleric]

Unfortunately having a large vocabulary and being verbose does not equal intelligence. Neither does treating others like they are beneath you.

It was meant in good fun and everyone save for perhaps you and curmudgeon have realized that... and you're one to berate me for being a troll? That goes against Intuitive Verismilitude!!!!!!1111

Reality is becoming more like a MorePig! (that's for you, Reel. :smallbiggrin:)

[Curmudgeon]

It was meant in good fun and everyone save for perhaps you and curmudgeon have realized that... Uh, was it necessary to add a smiley to
Is there something you'd like to share about your oral limitations, SamTheCleric? I got the joke, and tried to play along. Oh, well. :smallsigh:

[SamTheCleric]

Oh, I apologize... I apparantly have been beaten by my own hyperbole! Well played!

No hard feelings... I don't hold grudges on the internet... its about as pointless as Internet Dating Sites, Light Mayonaise or Dane Cook.

[Curmudgeon]

No problem, STC. I enjoy a spirited debate, whether serious or in jest.