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Kurald Galain
2008-05-21, 04:57 AM
I was wondering...

The spellwarp sniper has the ability to turn (some of) its regular spells into rays, for instance converting an area effect fireball with a reflex save, into a beam of fire with a touch attack roll instead.

That sounds like fun, but on the other hand, there are a large number of ray spells in existence already. For instance, any regular wizard can duplicate the above effect by casting scorching ray.

So my question is, are there any spells worth spellwarping, that aren't easily duplicated by some random ray or orb or other ranged touch spell?

Nebo_
2008-05-21, 05:01 AM
Wings of Flurry. CL/d6 untyped damage and daze, no save.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-21, 05:12 AM
Wings of Flurry. CL/d6 untyped damage and daze, no save.

Wings of Flurry dazes on a failed reflex save. If there's no Reflex save, they can't fail it, and they're not dazed.

ETA: the best thing about Spellwarping spells into rays is that they then qualify for Split Ray, which has half the cost of Twin Spell.

Gorbash
2008-05-21, 05:31 AM
So my question is, are there any spells worth spellwarping, that aren't easily duplicated by some random ray or orb or other ranged touch spell?

Not really, since AFAIK you can only warp spells like fireball, and it only removes reflex save, if original spell had Fort or Will, the target still gets one. So, you're losing one caster lvl (since you need +1d6 sneak attack) to get some really minor abilities...

Pirate_King
2008-05-21, 07:28 AM
so spell warp only works on AoE spells?

Meat Shield
2008-05-21, 07:37 AM
You could use it on spells like Lightning Bolt also, but again, we are back to the salient question of why, when Orb spells generally do all that for you.

Thrawn183
2008-05-21, 09:40 AM
Can't you combine it with wild mage and prismatic spray for pretty decent effects with no save?

I just don't remember off the top of my head if there is a cap to the level of spell it works with. (Prismatic spray is 7th)

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-21, 09:49 AM
It's capped by SS level (which goes up to 5), so no Prismatic Rays there...

BRC
2008-05-21, 09:56 AM
Well, If your a wizard and you have a fireball prepared, but your party is engaged in meele, or your in a forest/city, or for some other reason a Fireball would not be a good idea, you can Spellwarp it into a ray. You can Spellwarp on the spot. Or you could sneak attack with it.


Or you could just say "Hey this is sweet, I'm shooting FLAMING LASER BEAMS"

Gorbash
2008-05-21, 11:11 AM
Well, If your a wizard and you have a fireball prepared, but your party is engaged in meele, or your in a forest/city, or for some other reason a Fireball would not be a good idea, you can Spellwarp it into a ray. You can Spellwarp on the spot. Or you could sneak attack with it.

You do know that shooting into melee incurs a -4 penalty on attack rolls if you don't have Precise Shot? And since you have one class with the lowest attack bonus and two with medium... You'll be lucky to hit anything even without that -4 penalty...

marjan
2008-05-21, 11:28 AM
ETA: the best thing about Spellwarping spells into rays is that they then qualify for Split Ray, which has half the cost of Twin Spell.

Problem with this is, IIRC, that prepared spellcasters don't have use for it since you change your spells on the fly and don't have a way of applying said feat on the fly.

Edit:

You do know that shooting into melee incurs a -4 penalty on attack rolls if you don't have Precise Shot?

You do.

zaei
2008-05-21, 04:08 PM
Lesser Planar Binding. I'll let you imagine what that does or looks like.

Also, Wall of Stone. Again, no idea what it would do.

Trouvere
2008-05-21, 04:18 PM
I wonder if there's any use at all for a Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Monk 1 / Enlightened Fist 7 / Archmage 1, who can therefore convert area spells into rays, rays into touch spells, and touch spells into ranged touches, variously. He'd probably be entertaining late at night at wizard parties, but that's about it.

BRC
2008-05-21, 04:21 PM
Also, Wall of Stone. Again, no idea what it would do.

Isn't it obvious, you shoot the wall at them and they die from awsome.

Reel On, Love
2008-05-21, 04:59 PM
Also, Wall of Stone. Again, no idea what it would do.

Bwahahaha, you just won. Well played.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-21, 05:25 PM
Also, Wall of Stone. Again, no idea what it would do.

Segmentation fault, core dumped.

NobleSavage
2008-05-21, 05:55 PM
So my question is, are there any spells worth spellwarping, that aren't easily duplicated by some random ray or orb or other ranged touch spell?

I've always seen the Warp Spell feature as an increase of flexibility, not power. That way a prepared caster can change spells intended to counter large groups of weak foes into a spell that deals with one tough foe, thus leaving more spell slots free to deal with other contingencies.

RTGoodman
2008-05-21, 08:21 PM
Or you could just say "Hey this is sweet, I'm shooting FLAMING LASER BEAMS"

You're missing the Ocular Spell metamagic feat from Lords of Madness. Now you shoot flaming laser beams from your eyes. As a full-round action, though, if I remember correctly.

marjan
2008-05-21, 08:24 PM
You're missing the Ocular Spell metamagic feat from Lords of Madness. Now you shoot flaming laser beams from your eyes. As a full-round action, though, if I remember correctly.

Yep you do remember correctly, but only if you have a way of applying Ocular Spell on the fly.

Signmaker
2008-05-21, 08:42 PM
You're missing the Ocular Spell metamagic feat from Lords of Madness. Now you shoot flaming laser beams from your eyes. As a full-round action, though, if I remember correctly.

Omega Effect?

This be text.

Worira
2008-05-21, 09:03 PM
Wings of Flurry dazes on a failed reflex save. If there's no Reflex save, they can't fail it, and they're not dazed.

ETA: the best thing about Spellwarping spells into rays is that they then qualify for Split Ray, which has half the cost of Twin Spell.

So would you say that Wings of Flurry does no damage period if it's spellwarped?

Nebo_
2008-05-21, 09:22 PM
Wings of Flurry dazes on a failed reflex save. If there's no Reflex save, they can't fail it, and they're not dazed.

ETA: the best thing about Spellwarping spells into rays is that they then qualify for Split Ray, which has half the cost of Twin Spell.


I know, what I posted was already converted into a spellwarped ray.

BRC
2008-05-21, 09:25 PM
You're missing the Ocular Spell metamagic feat from Lords of Madness. Now you shoot flaming laser beams from your eyes. As a full-round action, though, if I remember correctly.
That's even cooler.

"Staring contest, GO!" (Shoots a pair of Fireballs from his eyes) "You lose"

Reel On, Love
2008-05-21, 09:34 PM
I know, what I posted was already converted into a spellwarped ray.

What?


So would you say that Wings of Flurry does no damage period if it's spellwarped?
Depending on the exact text, that's a possibility. Wings of Flurry is weird, just in general. For example, it attacks enemies rather than being a burst, but autohits.

Flickerdart
2008-05-21, 09:45 PM
Yep you do remember correctly, but only if you have a way of applying Ocular Spell on the fly.
All spontaneous caster Metamagic feats can be applied on the fly. In fact, that's they only way they can be applied, no?

marjan
2008-05-21, 09:53 PM
All spontaneous caster Metamagic feats can be applied on the fly. In fact, that's they only way they can be applied, no?

Just trying to say that prepared casters won't be able to apply feats like Split Ray to Spellwarped spells.

Keld Denar
2008-05-21, 09:53 PM
Frost Breath is kind of nice. It also has a daze, but the damage sucks. Denying the save via spellwarp makes it incredibly useful.

Oh, and on whether or not you can Split Ray an area of affect spell before spellwarping it....why not? You can memorize an Empowered Solid Fog, but its not going to do anything. Why not?

If the metamagic spell doesn't apply at the time of casting, then it has no effect. If it does, then it applies. Not a difficult concept.

RTGoodman
2008-05-22, 12:15 AM
Oh, and on whether or not you can Split Ray an area of affect spell before spellwarping it....why not? You can memorize an Empowered Solid Fog, but its not going to do anything. Why not?

If the metamagic spell doesn't apply at the time of casting, then it has no effect. If it does, then it applies. Not a difficult concept.

And the actual entry for Spellwarp says, "You can apply metamagic feats as normal to the spell, as long as they can affect ray spells." So I think you're good.


As far as applying them "on the fly," you could use metamagic rods if you really need to. You'd probably want to go for one lesser (for 1st-3rd level spells) and a regular one for (those 4th and 5th level ones, plus any actual rays of 6th level that you don't Spellwarp).

Keld Denar
2008-05-22, 12:18 AM
Couldn't use use something like Legacy Champion to add to your SWS levels, thus letting you warp up to 9th level spells? Probably not optimial, but lazers with a time delay would be amusing to see. I don't think you can warp Maw of Chaos, since the duration is non-instantaneous, but having a line of pure pwnage that you could aim at foes to autogib them without a save would be pretty neat.

Cuddly
2008-05-22, 12:24 AM
Or you could just say "Hey this is sweet, I'm shooting FLAMING LASER BEAMS"

And with ocular spell, you can shoot them from your eyes!

zaei
2008-05-22, 04:11 PM
Couldn't use use something like Legacy Champion to add to your SWS levels, thus letting you warp up to 9th level spells? Probably not optimial, but lazers with a time delay would be amusing to see. I don't think you can warp Maw of Chaos, since the duration is non-instantaneous, but having a line of pure pwnage that you could aim at foes to autogib them without a save would be pretty neat.

Well, if you're going to go warping 9th level spells, what does a Ray of Genesis do?

Reel On, Love
2008-05-22, 04:14 PM
Well, if you're going to go warping 9th level spells, what does a Ray of Genesis do?

Turn your game into an animu.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-23, 04:44 AM
Okay, so while several people have pointed out that rays are useful spells, there appears to be very little reason to use spellwarp instead of just grabbing a ray spell. Split Ray works with regular rays. Sneak attack works with any prestige class that advances SA dice. And the Legacy Champion combo isn't really legal.

So I think the conclusion is that Spellwarp Sniper isn't really worth it. It isn't bad per se but it doesn't really do anything exceptional either.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-23, 04:55 AM
It's not powerful but versatile. Consider the following: a Wizard is going to attack the BBEG's lair. He knows there might be lots of minions, but also the BBEG himself, and possibly a Generic Big Meaty Boss Henchman. He doesn't know the proportions, so he has to guess what to prepare- probably a 50/50 split of AoE and single-target.

The Spellwarp Sniper, however, just prepares a big bucket of AoE for his damage spells, because he can turn them into rays to zap the BBEG even if he has a +WIN reflex save.

It's even better for a Sorcerer- they don't need to worry about learning rays for zapping people, because they can warp their AoE.

It works best in Gestalt, where you don't have to sacrifice caster levels. For example, my character Kaenis the Bright in Humanity's End is a Spellthief//Sorcerer/Spellwarp Sniper (//Monk Aasimar Lich, because it's a bit houserules, but that's not important right now).

As you should notice, you get full Sorcerer casting, because you don't have to sacrifice a level for SA- it's on the other side.

Kurald Galain
2008-05-23, 05:02 AM
It's not powerful but versatile.
If you really want to play a gestalt blaster mage, I think warlock//rogue is both more powerful and more versatile. Note that sorcerers don't really need spellwarping, since they can simply have both a ray and a blast on their spell list and cast either when they need it.



It works best in Gestalt,
Yeah, that's because everything works best in gestalt, and that's why to my best knowledge most people don't play gestalt. Check out the recent threads on Gestalt Build Challenges for what else works best in gestalt, as it allows for a lot of wonky, cheesy or otherwise fun tricks.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-23, 05:10 AM
Having both a ray and a blast on a Sorcerer's list takes up two of their precious spell slots. An SS can make do with one.