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McClintock
2008-05-21, 11:12 AM
This character is starting out at 1st level, I've played a bit with him and enjoy his capabilities immensely, but I am interested on opinions on his future choices I have made. Should I include Stormguard Warrior in? if yes, When?

HUMAN, Warblade - STR:16 DEX:16 CON:15 INT:17 WIS:11 CHA:9

1: Exotic Weapon: BS
HB: Weapon Focus: BS
3: Adaptive Style (TOB)
5B: Blade Meditation (TOB)
6: WS: Bastard Sword
9: MWM: Slashing (PH2)
9B: Improved Initiative
12: Robilar's Gambit (PH2)
13B: Combat Reflexes
15: Defensive Sweep(PH2)
17B:
18:

Maneuvers Known (3):
1 - Moment of Perfect Clarity (DM)
2 - Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM) *
3 - Steel Wind (IH) *
4 - Sudden Leap (TC)
5 - Action Before Thought (DM)
6 - Insightful Strike (DM) *
7 - Iron Heart Surge (IH)
8 - Lightning Recovery (IH)
9 - Moment of Alacrity (DM)
10 - Finishing Move (IH)
11 - Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM)
12 - Time Stands Still (DM)
13 - Strike of Perfect Clarity (IH)

* will be switched out for:
4th: Wall of Blades (IH) #3
13th: Greater Insightful Strike (DM) #6
18th: Lightning Throw (IH) #2

Stances Known (1):
1 - Punishing Stance (IH)
2 - Pearl of Black Doubt (DM) - 5th
3 - Hearing the Air (DM)
4 - Supreme Blade Parry (IH)

FinalJustice
2008-05-21, 12:44 PM
I'd say Stormguard Warrior as soon as possible. The whole focus and specialization are sub-par, although they get a little better with MWM. I'd recommend you delay them or even drop them and get Combat Reflexes, Stormguard Warrior instead.

Time Stand Still + Stormguard Warrior followed by a Diamond Nightmare Blade may seem a waste of turns, but it's always badass.

sonofzeal
2008-05-21, 01:04 PM
Drop Bastard Sword. You're paying a whole feat for, effectively, +1 damage each hit. You can do way better. You seem to be going Battlefield Control here (Combat Reflexes + Defensive Sweep), so go Spiked Chain (or Meteor Hammer) instead. Also, I'd drop Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Power Attack and Cleave also work nicely here.

Frosty
2008-05-21, 01:11 PM
Also, dip a level or 2 in Crusader to get Thicket of Blades.

Thrawn183
2008-05-21, 01:25 PM
Do you really need Adaptive Style as a Warblade? I'd only take that as a swordsage because the Warblade recovery mechanic isn't bad (even if it isn't as exceptional as the crusaders)

Draz74
2008-05-21, 01:31 PM
Do you really need Adaptive Style as a Warblade? I'd only take that as a swordsage because the Warblade recovery mechanic isn't bad (even if it isn't as exceptional as the crusaders)

It's not a must-have for Warblades like it is for Swordsages, but it's still good. Although Warblades' recovery mechanic is good, their number of Maneuvers Readied is pretty small. They don't use Adaptive Style to recharge their maneuvers; they use it to select different maneuvers that work better against a particular opposition.

Eldariel
2008-05-21, 01:40 PM
Adaptive Style, Blade Meditation and EWP: Bastard Sword are all rather weak, as mentioned.


Adaptive Style: You're a Warblade, so you'll actually have most of your maneuvers known readied. It's a sort of waste, especially this early, to spend a feat just to be able to trade maneuvers in combat. As said, Warblade recovery is actually better than this (either a standard action to do nothing, or a normal attack, full or otherwise) so it's only useful for trading maneuvers in combat (again, out of combat you've got the 5 mins).

Blade Meditation: Unless you badly need a boost in the skill or solely focus on save-giving maneuvers of a single school, this usually isn't worth it unless you can synergize all those abilities.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword just isn't worth it since Bastard Sword isn't much better than Longsword; 1d10 vs. 1d8 is one point of damage.


Stormguard Warrior is definitely better than those; use your Blade Meditation-feat for Ironheart Aura (the prerequisite - it's a Warblade bonus) and the Adaptive Style-feat for Stormguard Warrior. I'd also switch Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes around.

Also, Strike of Perfect Clarity is quite weak; 100 points of guaranteed damage is nice, but it's just 30 more than what Feral Death Blow deals, and Feral can kill the opponent while at it. Mountain Tombstone Strike is actual Con-damage without save and on those levels, 2d6 Con = ~7 points = 80+ (monsters with high HD suffer more, obviously) HP lost without the chance to heal them. Finally, War Master's Charge is friggin' incredible if you have more than 1 warrior in your party; autostun, extra damage for all and a charge (so you don't need to be next to them; can also combine with Pounce if you have it).

Time Stands Still is obviously awesome, generally far more powerful than Strike of Perfect Clarity. Overall, Strike is just damage while all the others can do all kinds of cool things too, which is why I'd suggest you use some other 9th level maneuver. Mountain Tombstone Strike has no prerequisites and is fairly awesome and gives you added versatility in ability damage.

McClintock
2008-05-21, 02:15 PM
I have to be very careful in my group with going too optimized. We've been in two battles so far in this module, and I have already 1 shotted everything I have hit.

I understand the comments about the Bastard Sword, but it fits the background of this character and it must stay.

I am going for battlefield control, but in my group, if I take too much control it will be more like domination. My group will not stand for that and I may be forced into early retirement.

I am trying to show my group how strong their characters can be with a little forethought, I want strength without domination.

ALSO: Exotic Weapon Prof can be used for ANY EXOTIC Weapon, since I am a Warblade. I took it with that purpose in mind.

In my group we usually go long periods between camping, since we will rest infrequently, I may need to change abilities quickly, adaptive style will allow that, but I could change that out for Ironheart Aura and not be missing anything.

I will move combat reflexes and Imp Init, but now I need to figure out what to bump to get stormguard in sooner....

I will take Mountain Tombstone under consideration, but I need to check the numbers for the Ironhearts, I think I need them all for something.

Draz74
2008-05-21, 03:03 PM
Adaptive Style: You're a Warblade, so you'll actually have most of your maneuvers known readied. It's a sort of waste, especially this early, to spend a feat just to be able to trade maneuvers in combat. As said, Warblade recovery is actually better than this (either a standard action to do nothing, or a normal attack, full or otherwise) so it's only useful for trading maneuvers in combat (again, out of combat you've got the 5 mins).
Agreed, except for the "most of your maneuvers known readied" part. At later levels, you can't ready more than about half of your maneuvers. So Adaptive Style is a good feat -- though it can probably be saved until Level 9 or 15.


Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword just isn't worth it since Bastard Sword isn't much better than Longsword; 1d10 vs. 1d8 is one point of damage.
Only reason it might be worth it is because you can change it to any other EWP you want. Spiked Chain? Elven Courtblade? Meh, still not a great feat.


Also, Strike of Perfect Clarity is quite weak; 100 points of guaranteed damage is nice, but it's just 30 more than what Feral Death Blow deals, and Feral can kill the opponent while at it.
Yeah, but FDB requires a full-round action, for the one attack. And doesn't work (beyond doing normal damage) on things immune to precision damage. And if you don't optimize your Jump check a bit, you could even screw that up. In theory.


Mountain Tombstone Strike is actual Con-damage without save and on those levels, 2d6 Con = ~7 points = 80+ (monsters with high HD suffer more, obviously) HP lost without the chance to heal them.
Yeah, but it has that obnoxious "doesn't work while flying" clause that all of the Stone Dragon school has.

Once I started noticing these details, I began thinking that Strike of Perfect Clarity is fairly underrated, not that bad at all. Of course it's still not nearly as good as Time Stands Still or (situationally) War Master's Charge. But still worth taking in some builds.

Draz74
2008-05-21, 03:23 PM
This character is starting out at 1st level, I've played a bit with him and enjoy his capabilities immensely, but I am interested on opinions on his future choices I have made. Should I include Stormguard Warrior in? if yes, When?

So tell us your character concept. Obviously a Human Warblade. Probably with a maxed Concentration check.

What's his focus? Just dealing lots of damage? (That's what it seems like, so far.) Battlefield control? Being really tough to hit/kill?

Will he have any other relevent skills (e.g. Jump) very high?

Since you took EWP (bastard sword), I assume you want to be using a shield? If so, do you want to (spend feats to) use your shield more effectively than just a passive AC bonus?

How does teamwork factor in? What's his party like (e.g. other warriors)? Does he care? Does he want to be helpful to his party, or is his personality too independent to be teamwork-oriented?

Is there a reason you're ignoring Stone Dragon (e.g. you expect to fly a lot)?


Maneuvers Known (3):
1 - Moment of Perfect Mind (DM)
Edited


2 - Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM) *
3 - Steel Wind (IH) *
4 - Sudden Leap (TC)
5 - Action Before Thought (DM)
Reflex saves usually aren't important enough to spend one of your Maneuvers Readied on.


6 - Insightful Strike (DM) *
7 - Iron Heart Surge (IH)
Check what your DM thinks of this controversial maneuver.


8 - Lightning Recovery (IH)
Meh ... mediocre.


=Stances Known (1):
1 - Punishing Stance (IH)
2 - Pearl of Black Doubt (DM) - 5th
3 - Hearing the Air (DM)
4 - Supreme Blade Parry (IH)

DR 5/- would be nice at low levels, but it's pretty weak at high levels. Definitely not worth your highest Stance slot.

Draz74
2008-05-21, 03:25 PM
I have to be very careful in my group with going too optimized. We've been in two battles so far in this module, and I have already 1 shotted everything I have hit.
Punishing Stance is somewhat overpowered at Levels 1-3 IMHO. It shouldn't stay a problem for too long.


I am going for battlefield control, but in my group, if I take too much control it will be more like domination. My group will not stand for that and I may be forced into early retirement.

I am trying to show my group how strong their characters can be with a little forethought, I want strength without domination.
Sounds like White Raven stuff that makes your group better might be an ideal solution ...

McClintock
2008-05-21, 03:43 PM
1) His entire family was run out of town. What for? Being damn good merchants and making TOO MUCH BLOODY MONEY. My character is trying to re-establish his family's good name (They were set up by an EVIL politician and stricken from the city record as a blight on the community) He was trained as a tactical leader, but is having trouble with his group.

Which incidentally consists of:
Hu Warlock (CN) (Ranged blaster)
Hu VoP Monk (LG) (Flanker/Skirmisher)
Hu Paladin (Thinking of picking up Crusader) (Front Line)
Hu Cleric (Thinks he's a thief) (truly not sure what he has in mind)

2) Thanks for the edit.... Reflex saves not as important what do you recommend, keep in mind I need to keep it DM.

2.5) Jump - Maxed, Concentration - Maxed

3) Not so much Ignoring SD, as I just didn't have the room with what I was trying to get too. I've read the book over and drooled over the abilities. I just didn't want to spread myself too thin, and not be able to get the higher level abilities.

4) Yes I am using a shield, I plan on being in the Punishing Stance for a long time, I was using the shield to off set the -2. If I do devote feats to it, that would mean less focus on the weapon. Not sure I want to do that.

5) IHS, I'll check his opinion on this.

6) why is LR mediocre in your opinion?

7) What do you recommend in Supreme Blade Parry's place?

Eldariel
2008-05-21, 10:20 PM
6) I guess he finds it to be rather weak use for a Swift Action. I, on the other hand, really like it. Missing with some powerful maneuver like Mountain Tombstone Strike is a huge bummer and rerolling it can save lives.

7) Stance of Alacrity is my favourite stance and one of the best in the book. What's not to like about getting an extra immediate action? That's often the problem with save-maneuvers and the like, you might've used an immediate action already and thus get effed in the rear by a will-save. Also, it allows you to use a counter and still use a boost (or recover!) the next round. I strongly recommend; it's Diamond Mind too.


Also, second White Raven. The school is great and really helps with teamwork (moving allies, giving them all sorts of bonuses, even extra attacks and actions and just being the leader). You could drop your higher level Iron Heart (most of them are really rather mediocre) and add some White Raven instead. Also, Ancient Mountain Hammer is a useful Stone Dragon-maneuver to have; allows you to break things and in general, it basically acts as a key in dungeons. Most doors can't stand being bashed when their hardness is ignored.

Keld Denar
2008-05-21, 11:00 PM
If you want to do the Bastard Sword thing, might as well take a trip to dip land and pick up 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master. This gives you Uncanny Blow, which allows you to gain the benefit of 2x your strength bonus when wielding a bastard sword in both hands. This is a quick net of 2-3 damage per hit that scales to about 4-5 damage per hit late game for almost no loss. One other level to compliment (no additional loss of IL) brings barbarian to mind. Unless you have your heart set on Duel Stancing at level 20, dipping for a warblade is fairly common.

Also, I don't like Stormguard Warrior. Unless your build is completely based off it, you are usually better taking the attacks straight up than ignoring the AoOs or making only non-damaging touch attacks. You spend your whole turn winding up, what happens when your opponent moves away? Or you get hit by a nasty Solid Fog spell and lose track of your opponent. Or the paladin standing next to you gets a lucky crit on a smite and 1shots the foe you were winding up on? Wasted damage. Even if it does go off, unless your base damage is miserable and your attack rate is high, you'll be doing more than 4-16 damage per hit, so the +4 dmg on subsequent attacks will be less than if you had actually taken the attacks.

I'm not saying SW is a bad feat. I've seen some pretty impressive theoretical calcs for the damage you can pump out with it, but it was almost always from builds built around maximizing it. For most people, though, just hit stuff with your sword and hope your damage + your party's damage kills it before it gets to attack you again. It doesn't matter if you can make the screen flash 9999 if you take extra damage in a round that you have to spend resources healing afterwards, or worse, die from it. Just like money, damage now is worth more than damage next round. Factor that in.

Chronicled
2008-05-22, 03:01 AM
Here's a link you may find helpful: Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956362). It's probably the best guide to ToB out there at the moment.

McClintock
2008-05-22, 09:29 AM
If you want to do the Bastard Sword thing, might as well take a trip to dip land and pick up 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master. This gives you Uncanny Blow, which allows you to gain the benefit of 2x your strength bonus when wielding a bastard sword in both hands. This is a quick net of 2-3 damage per hit that scales to about 4-5 damage per hit late game for almost no loss. One other level to compliment (no additional loss of IL) brings barbarian to mind. Unless you have your heart set on Duel Stancing at level 20, dipping for a warblade is fairly common.

Ok... so assuming I take your advice, when do you recommend the dips? Early? Late?

I was set on the dual stance, but if our last group of characters is any indication, we won't be 20th level long before we start a new.