Organic character levelling

[elliott20]

99% of the time, when forums talk about writing characters in D&D, they come up with an entire build for a character, pretty much planning out the character's growth before they step into the game.

How often do you go the other direction where you just pick your abilities/class levels/etc as you go? Did you let the events of the game affect how your choice?

Share your thoughts.

[Solo]

Misleading title.

[Tengu]

Works only in level-less games. In DND there are few better ways to ensure your character will suck, unless you play a class that doesn't depend a lot on feats and doesn't have to multiclass to be efficient.

[Premier]

Works only in level-less games.

Or, in fact, in any version of D&D other than the WotC ones.

[Chronos]

To be fair, there really isn't such a thing as "character building", organic or otherwise, in 2nd edition. You gain a level up, and what that gives you is explicitly laid out. There's no feats, no skills for most characters, and very few proficiencies, which don't make much overall difference.

[SoD]

99% of the time, when forums talk about writing characters in D&D, they come up with an entire build for a character, pretty much planning out the character's growth before they step into the game.

How often do you go the other direction where you just pick your abilities/class levels/etc as you go? Did you let the events of the game affect how your choice?

Share your thoughts.

Actually, I usually do just wing it as I level up. I usually plan on taking X PrC eventually, but I rarely decide 'I want to take PrC X at level Y'.

[elliott20]

well, the reason I bring it up is because that is clearly the approach that OOTS has taken when it comes to characters levelling up. And to me, that approach, while not the most efficient nor is it necessarily the most effective, feels more real to me.

I believe people's growth should be shaped by their environment, and it should happen in ways that make real, meaningful mechanical differences. but unfortunately, in 3.5 it seems like this kind of thing requires that everybody in your group play this way else you'll end up with people all sitting on very uneven playing fields.

[Kurald Galain]

To be fair, there really isn't such a thing as "character building", organic or otherwise, in 2nd edition.
Except on the levels where you gain a weapon proficiency or non-weapon proficiency, and except if you're a human who might dual class, and except if you're a wizard and the DM gives you a spell of your choice at each level (I don't recall if that was RAW or just a common houserule).


Actually, I usually do just wing it as I level up. I usually plan on taking X PrC eventually, but I rarely decide 'I want to take PrC X at level Y'.
That's good, but I find that many prestige classes tend to be hard to qualify for unless you've been planning for them for several levels in advance. Unless your DM allows retraining, of course.

[valadil]

I did one level at a time when I started playing 3.0. Then around level 8 everyone else got cool prestige classes and I was left with a vanilla ranger. Since then I've planned from level 1 to the entry point for my PrC, but rarely beyond that. Something complex like a gish will get more planning and I'm likely to plan through 20 if building as a thought exercise, but actual characters don't see that much work.

[Thrawn183]

I usually build to a certain point and then go crazy from there. If I want to play a trip fighter then I pick up a few feats like Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes (and a few others of course, Hold the Line never hurts) so that my build is viable and then I can do whatever I want because I'll still be a viable character as long as I keep things like HP and BAB up to acceptable levels.

Edit: If I am starting at 10th level, I'll plan everything out so my character is viable at 10th level (ie. already optimised) so that future choices can't hurt much. Unless I'm a caster, in which I just keep repeating "thou shalt not lose caster levels."

[marjan]

Actually, I usually do just wing it as I level up. I usually plan on taking X PrC eventually, but I rarely decide 'I want to take PrC X at level Y'.

Pretty much the same case here. I do plan my character all the way, but I rarely follow the plan. I'm sort of chaotic when it comes to leveling. :smallbiggrin:

[Tsotha-lanti]

Or, in fact, in any version of D&D other than the WotC ones.

True dat. You don't need to plan out your build in Conan d20, for instance, or in M&M.

But it's also true that organic/free character development works a million times better in games with no levels and classes.

[Frosty]

The problem is, with so many different requirements before you can take Feat X or prestige class Y, if you don't plan out your build ahead of time, when your character *does* want to develo some cool ability, or or she CAN'T thanks tot he game limiting you. Now, if your DM is cool enough to let you re-select your feat choices, then terrific. But if not, you need to plan.

[elliott20]

I guess this is one of those things where we would pretty much have to chalk it up to it being a d20 system weakness

[Duke of URL]

1) Always have a character development plan. This way, you don't realize at level X that a decision you made at level X - Y is now precluding an option you'd like to take. "Retraining" helps, but it can be costly and only corrects for a small amount of "error".

2) Be prepared to change the plan, based on the campaign and your character's development. You may elect to change your goals, or try to cover a role not filled well by your party, that wasn't what you originally had in mind.

[Kioran]

It´s the cooler way of doing things. It´s also suboptimal, since the entry requirements of PrCs or some of the better Feats do require much forethought and planning, sadly. That´s why I like lower-powered games (if the players are actually on the same page and actually refrain from going full-tilt on you), where people can grow organically or try more exotic stuff without constantly dying or sucking.

[Eldariel]

That's why I like alternate Core with Psionics (henceforth called Arcane Magic) and ToB classes only (with Divine Magic turned into Divine Psionics, henceforth called Divine Magic), along with ToB-based Ranger and Barbarian, and Psionic Bard.

That allows organic multiclassing as all those classes are completely fine being multiclassed without starting to suck - it's really closer to the 3.0 multiclass system; under these rules, a Warblade 5/Psion 5 is really closer to the Warblade 8/Psion 8 in power, which is far more comparable to Warblade 10 or Psion 10, than the half-classed character thanks to powerpoints, BAB and initiator level increasing even on off-levels - and by giving most 'prerequisite' and 'basic'-feats for free (á la Power Attack, Practiced Manifester, Combat Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, stuff anyone going that style would pick automatically), feats are more open to be picked at player discretion.

While planning is still possible in such a system, it isn't really necessary as basically any not-too-many-classed character is mechanically sound (3 seems like the max that makes sense).

[elliott20]

also, the fact that you can swap out your maneuvers at every level gives the ToB characters another level of flexibility too

[UserClone]

Methinks that "Organic" levelling works best with the "Task-based Prerequisites" variant found in UA. [/2 cents]

[Aquillion]

also, the fact that you can swap out your maneuvers at every level gives the ToB characters another level of flexibility tooPsionic characters have that advantage, too (in addition to the much better multiclassing mechanic outlined above), since they can just take Psychic Reformation when they level up, then immediately spend a small amount of XP to replace it and any skills, feats, or powers they want for as far back as they care to go. The best part about Psychic Reformation is that you don't actually have to waste a powers known slot on it -- when you want to change your character, you just wait until your next level up, then learn it and immediately unlearn it. Even psiwars can do it thanks to Expanded Knowledge.

[Waspinator]

Actual, anyone can have the benefit of a psychic reformation as long as you know a psion nice enough to use it on you. You could learn it, use it on a party member or two, then use it on yourself to delete it.

[Renegade Paladin]

I never plan a whole character build ahead of time; I have better things to do with my life. I make solid choices when I level up, but that's hardly the same thing, and my build can be and often is influenced by what happens in the game.

[Waspinator]

I usually don't plan characters very thoroughly, personally. I'll think of things like "I need to have these two feats by this one level" or "I want to take this spell first once I have that level of spell slot", but I won't right things out completely.

[Cuddly]

Misleading title.

What were you expecting? A back attack? SN reaction mechanisms?

[Chronicled]

and by giving most 'prerequisite' and 'basic'-feats for free (á la Power Attack, Practiced Manifester, Combat Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, stuff anyone going that style would pick automatically), feats are more open to be picked at player discretion.

So other people DO give their players the "practically required" feats free (I don't think I've seen it yet in PbP). It worked quite well in my last campaign, especially when I encouraged the players to take a "fun" feat that they would normally pass up on so as to keep up with the group power level.

[Solo]

What were you expecting? A back attack? SN reaction mechanisms?

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[Cuddly]

Oh, pills that can make a man larger. :smallwink:

[Solo]

You know, organic growth :smallbiggrin:

[averagejoe]

Ah, pills of enlarge person. But why is it called "male enhancement?" The spell works on women too. :smallconfused:

[elliott20]

Pills of Enlarge Confidence? this just drifted into the territory of Book of Erotic Fantasies.

[Waspinator]

What were you expecting? A back attack? SN reaction mechanisms?

Characters made without artificial additives or preservatives.