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Jayngfet
2008-05-21, 06:30 PM
If I have this right:

Dying of old age does not allow any ressurection.

No spell I know of reverses the aging process.

When traveling from plane to plane time around you flows differently, spending a day on one plane is a century on another.

Therefore:When hopping from plane to plane on a campane, upon returning home you could die with no saving throw, turn to dust(no free willed undead), and be unable to get a resurrection.

Which raises another question of how you ressurect someone so simply, raising someone the next day could seem like enough time for their soul to be turned into some Pit Fiend.

I'm asking because I've only got the exact nature of a few planes left to finish, and the source of half the wold's problems come from the fact that some celestial or fiend can't just pop home and call for help before it's too latte.

Collin152
2008-05-21, 06:34 PM
Plane Hoppers, ye be warned.

On another interestign note, if you know a plane where time moves right, you can planeshift your enemies there and never worry about them again, provided they don't have a means of getting back.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-21, 06:36 PM
IIRC there are a few planes where time actually moves backwards in relation to the Prime Material, don't ask me how that interacts with aging.

The best spell to stop aging is just PaO into an Elan, no maximum age. Or a warforged.

monty
2008-05-21, 06:37 PM
If I have this right:

Dying of old age does not allow any ressurection.

True.


No spell I know of reverses the aging process.

Off the top of my head, Reincarnate returns you to young adult. Beyond that, I don't know. Also, Reincarnate requires you not already being dead of old age, so from your perspective it doesn't work anyway.


When traveling from plane to plane time around you flows differently, spending a day on one plane is a century on another.

Therefore:When hopping from plane to plane on a campane, upon returning home you could die with no saving throw, turn to dust(no free willed undead), and be unable to get a resurrection.

Here's where I lose you. Your age is measured by the amount of time (by your reference) you've been alive. If you spend a day on one plane, and a century passes on another, going to that plane isn't an instant death. You're still only one day older, because that's how much time has passed from your perspective. At the risk of killing catgirls, this is sort of like how special relativity works in real life.


Which raises another question of how you ressurect someone so simply, raising someone the next day could seem like enough time for their soul to be turned into some Pit Fiend.

Not sure what you're saying here. People don't just suddenly become pit fiends.

tyckspoon
2008-05-21, 06:45 PM
If I have this right:

Dying of old age does not allow any ressurection.

No spell I know of reverses the aging process.

When traveling from plane to plane time around you flows differently, spending a day on one plane is a century on another.

Therefore:When hopping from plane to plane on a campane, upon returning home you could die with no saving throw, turn to dust(no free willed undead), and be unable to get a resurrection.


There's two aspects to this. The first is that planes with different time flows aren't that common, outside of people abusing the loose wording of the arcane Genesis spell to deliberately create one or a DM deciding to create one in his own cosmology. You can go around pretty near all of the Great Wheel without worrying about the timeflow. The other is that you do have it wrong; timeflows are only different relative to other planes. Any particular plane, and the beings inhabiting it, always experience their time as normal. One day is one day for the planar travel, wherever he goes. One day may be a hundred years from the perspective of other planes, however; the unwary planar traveler may return to his home plane and find out that everybody he knew has aged to death while he was gone. He'll still only be one day older.

Jayngfet
2008-05-21, 06:46 PM
Here's where I lose you. Your age is measured by the amount of time (by your reference) you've been alive. If you spend a day on one plane, and a century passes on another, going to that plane isn't an instant death. You're still only one day older, because that's how much time has passed from your perspective. At the risk of killing catgirls, this is sort of like how special relativity works in real life.



According to the DMG, people have returned to their home planes and suddenly turned to dust, I'm just using what's said there.




Not sure what you're saying here. People don't just suddenly become pit fiends.

I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that human souls sent to hell can become Devils, so given enough time, you're loyal mook with the red chainmail(from his own blood) becomes a Pit Fiend.

Worira
2008-05-21, 06:50 PM
Timeless trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#timeless)

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-21, 06:51 PM
Any random damned soul becoming a pit fiend is... very long odds. Doing so overnight is unheard of; it takes centuries if not longer to climb the ranks of Baator that far.

monty
2008-05-21, 06:53 PM
According to the DMG, people have returned to their home planes and suddenly turned to dust, I'm just using what's said there.

I haven't seen that. Page number?


I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that human souls sent to hell can become Devils, so given enough time, you're loyal mook with the red chainmail(from his own blood) becomes a Pit Fiend.

They can, but it's unlikely if not impossible for it to happen overnight.

Edit: semi-ninjaed.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-21, 06:55 PM
A high level wizard WOULD probably reincarnate into a Pit Fiend, though.

Jayngfet
2008-05-21, 06:55 PM
I haven't seen that. Page number?



They can, but it's unlikely if not impossible for it to happen overnight.

Edit: semi-ninjaed.

Page 148, see the above entry for timeless.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-21, 06:57 PM
A high level wizard WOULD probably reincarnate into a Pit Fiend, though.
No, he wouldn't. Unless he had a pact specifically conceding his soul to hell and specifically stating that upon death he would become a higher-order devil, he would become a lemure like everybody else. The devils don't care how powerful you were in life; in fact, I would imagine that if they did care, it would only be insofar as they can further torture you with taunts about how pitiful your present form is compared to your mortal glory.

Jayngfet
2008-05-21, 07:00 PM
No, he wouldn't. Unless he had a pact specifically conceding his soul to hell and specifically stating that upon death he would become a higher-order devil, he would become a lemure like everybody else. The devils don't care how powerful you were in life; in fact, I would imagine that if they did care, it would only be insofar as they can further torture you with taunts about how pitiful your present form is compared to your mortal glory.

High level wizards who spend enough time mucking around in serious evil probably know a fair bit about fiendish anatomy, unless they're genre blind then they're screwed.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-21, 07:04 PM
No, he wouldn't. Unless he had a pact specifically conceding his soul to hell and specifically stating that upon death he would become a higher-order devil, he would become a lemure like everybody else. The devils don't care how powerful you were in life; in fact, I would imagine that if they did care, it would only be insofar as they can further torture you with taunts about how pitiful your present form is compared to your mortal glory.

Lemure are mindless and are only the souls of petty creatures. It follows form that that a powerful creature would reincarnate into a badass devil, as you don't shift species anyway.

monty
2008-05-21, 07:04 PM
Page 148, see the above entry for timeless.

As far as I can tell, this only applies to Timeless planes, where time still sort of flows at the normal rate.

shadow_archmagi
2008-05-21, 07:05 PM
Page 148, see the above entry for timeless.

Thats special for timeless planes.

On those planes, there is no aging, but once you leave its retroactive. If you spend ten minutes there while passing through, you get a ten minute jump at the end.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-21, 07:09 PM
Page 148, see the above entry for timeless.

Okay, but according to the description, and my interpretation of it, the rate of time doesn't change on the Astral and other timeless planes. You don't hunger, age, thirst, carry poison or heal naturally, but that doesn't mean anything regarding the normal flow of time. In regards to the exact quote you gave about crumbling to dust, maybe if we put it in context it would be better understood. "Traditional tales of folklore tell of places where heroes live hundreds of years, only to crumble to dust as soon as they leave." So, yes, if you spent a hundred years (subjectively) on a timeless plane, then you would crumble to dust when you left. But if you only stayed on one for a week, then you would simply age a week instantly when you left. Time is always subjective, and the only danger of the situation you proposed is all of your loved ones dying while you're gone.

Edit: Ninja'd. Damn. I like mine better, though, longer and more thought out. :smallbiggrin:

Jayngfet
2008-05-21, 07:11 PM
Thats special for timeless planes.

On those planes, there is no aging, but once you leave its retroactive. If you spend ten minutes there while passing through, you get a ten minute jump at the end.

Misinformation, it's really page 168, there's a table and everything.

Collin152
2008-05-21, 07:16 PM
Yeah, it isn't so dangerous if you're moving yourself.
When used as a weapon like I said above, though, you blink and your enemy is a pile of dust somewhere in the cosmos. Not that there aren't spells that do that without temporal mechanics, but you also wasted their soul beyond some god's power to restore.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-21, 07:17 PM
Misinformation, it's really page 168, there's a table and everything.

He was talking about a plane which is both timeless (Hence the worry of disintegrating upon return) and has flowing time (Hence the worry of a few minutes becoming years), which makes both of our statements completely relevant.

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-21, 07:25 PM
Lemure are mindless and are only the souls of petty creatures. It follows form that that a powerful creature would reincarnate into a badass devil, as you don't shift species anyway.
First, I must revise my earlier statement; he would not be a lemure; he would be a powerless soul shell that might become a devil (starting at lemure) at some future point after being tortured so much that he's lost all sense of his old identity. Secondly, yes devils do change types as they are promoted (and demoted, a common consequence of failure).

There are exceptions; erinyes, for instance, are fallen angels, and the form cannot be acquired through promotion (though erinyes can be promoted to higher order devils, including brachinas). A malebranche can only come to be through the demotion of a greater devil; no lower ranking devils are promoted to the form.

In short, wizardly might (or might of any other variety) means little after death no matter where you go; a servant of the gods becomes a petitioner, those tempted by the devils become soul shells and are traded about like currency, and much the same happens to those cast to the Abyss. The Fiendish Codices go into this in great detail.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-21, 07:28 PM
First, I must revise my earlier statement; he would not be a lemure; he would be a powerless soul shell that might become a devil (starting at lemure) at some future point after being tortured so much that he's lost all sense of his old identity. Secondly, yes devils do change types as they are promoted (and demoted, a common consequence of failure).

There are exceptions; erinyes, for instance, are fallen angels, and the form cannot be acquired through promotion (though erinyes can be promoted to higher order devils, including brachinas). A malebranche can only come to be through the demotion of a greater devil; no lower ranking devils are promoted to the form.

In short, wizardly might (or might of any other variety) means little after death no matter where you go; a servant of the gods becomes a petitioner, those tempted by the devils become soul shells and are traded about like currency, and much the same happens to those cast to the Abyss. The Fiendish Codices go into this in great detail.

And the existence of the Heroic Islands trumps anything else, including all you said. Core beats splats.

Lady Tialait
2008-05-21, 07:48 PM
Azerian Kelimon, where is the Heroic Islands? and that seems like a thing of good, different rules. Evil tends not to care. And As modus isn't one to care if you were awesome evil boo! Muhahaha in life, what have done for him lately?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-21, 07:55 PM
Azerian Kelimon, where is the Heroic Islands? and that seems like a thing of good, different rules. Evil tends not to care. And As modus isn't one to care if you were awesome evil boo! Muhahaha in life, what have done for him lately?

...You realize how foolish that sounded? We're talking about Asmodeus, not frickin' monkey-brain and monkey head Demogorgon. He is perhaps THE most intelligent being in the whole multiverse, and you try to tell me he's stupid enough to spend time torturing you and transforming you to a Lemure?

PAH! What he'll do is mindrape you and shaft you to the Blood War as a pit fiend, if anything.

Mando Knight
2008-05-21, 08:16 PM
and the source of half the wold's problems come from the fact that some celestial or fiend can't just pop home and call for help before it's too latte.

Amusing misspelling here... they can't save the world before it's turned to coffee?:smalltongue:

Planar time seems to be rather messy... just don't mess up the PCs by throwing them into a "1 second here = 10 years there" plane or something...

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-21, 08:22 PM
Core beats splats.
Um, no. Newest source trumps older source.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-21, 08:28 PM
Um, no. Newest source trumps older source.

DM trumps all, so whether the splat book or the core book is correct is entirely subjective.

Jayngfet
2008-05-21, 08:36 PM
Amusing misspelling here... they can't save the world before it's turned to coffee?:smalltongue:

Planar time seems to be rather messy... just don't mess up the PCs by throwing them into a "1 second here = 10 years there" plane or something...

Unfortunatly, that's the whole premise of my world, other planes are mesterious and erratic, with the material plane having no other with time like it, hell only two planes are known with concrete evidence, and that's just because their inhabitants came over and discribed it, anyone trying to visit the world tree(home place of most outsiders) or living planet(birthplace of elementals) crumbles to dust upon returning, it wouldn't make sense for a couple thousand people to fight a three way war with no help if they can get reinforcments quicker than a century later.

...and yes, when the stars align the being benieth the waves will turn you into coffee...

...LATTE LATTE MOCHA FTAGAN!

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-21, 08:37 PM
DM trumps all, so whether the splat book or the core book is correct is entirely subjective.

Right, but as this is an internet forum, and as every DM is different, that stance provides no basis for one to debate from. Thus, all these discussions have the inherent rule unless the DM says otherwise, and also regard the standard wizard rules(RAW) as the starting point of discussion, as those can be said to be the starting point from which any DM departs from.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-21, 08:53 PM
Right, but as this is an internet forum, and as every DM is different, that stance provides no basis for one to debate from. Thus, all these discussions have the inherent rule unless the DM says otherwise, and also regard the standard wizard rules(RAW) as the starting point of discussion, as those can be said to be the starting point from which any DM departs from.

Oh, yeah, I know. I'm just saying that there's no need to argue those points when each person is free to interpret it however they want. If I want the Core books to override everything else, then that's fine. And if another DM says that newer sources trump everything, he can think that too. I understand that we're arguing how the RAW should be interpreted, I'm just stating my view; that being that I don't see much point to it. :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-21, 08:53 PM
DM trumps all, so whether the splat book or the core book is correct is entirely subjective.

*sigh*

Unless a DM specifies otherwise in the OP then every published 3.5 book is assumed to be in play with all of the normal rules for what trumps what.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-21, 08:59 PM
Alright, fine, I'll shut up and hide in the corner now.

Patashu
2008-05-21, 09:35 PM
Any random damned soul becoming a pit fiend is... very long odds. Doing so overnight is unheard of; it takes centuries if not longer to climb the ranks of Baator that far.

I think if you manage to become a good/evil creature in the afterlife that would count as 'not willing to return' for the purposes of raise dead and resurrection anyhow.

Jayngfet
2008-05-21, 09:39 PM
I think if you manage to become a good/evil creature in the afterlife that would count as 'not willing to return' for the purposes of raise dead and resurrection anyhow.

Who wouldn't head to a plane where you're among the most powerful beings when you could force some wizard to plane shift you home, anyone who's powerful enough to become a pit fiend would know the right fork for the spell, and besides, I'd go just to see if I can draft my high level buddies into being pit fiends too.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-22, 01:59 AM
True.
Here's where I lose you. Your age is measured by the amount of time (by your reference) you've been alive. If you spend a day on one plane, and a century passes on another, going to that plane isn't an instant death. You're still only one day older, because that's how much time has passed from your perspective. At the risk of killing catgirls, this is sort of like how special relativity works in real life.

Allow me to add more info with an example: If you spent 1 day in said plane, when you go back to yours, you'll find out that 100 years passed THERE. Like, most humans, halflings and gnomes you knew died of old age, dwarves and elves will see you and say "oh, you are that guy that went on some planar trip, 100 years ago, I remember now".

nagora
2008-05-22, 04:18 PM
If I have this right:

Dying of old age does not allow any ressurection.

Right. You've had your go; immortality is the domain of the gods and they guard it jealously.


No spell I know of reverses the aging process.

Hopefully not.


When traveling from plane to plane time around you flows differently, spending a day on one plane is a century on another.

Depends on plane, edition, and DM.


Therefore:When hopping from plane to plane on a campane, upon returning home you could die with no saving throw, turn to dust(no free willed undead), and be unable to get a resurrection.

Probably not. Subjective time has not altered. If you experience a day on another plane then you have aged a day, regardless of how much time has passed "at home".

One possibility that sometimes crops up in myths and legends of faery is that although it seems that only a day has passed, this is the effect of a magical glamour and in fact 100 years has passed but without you noticing. On return to human lands, touching the soil causes the spell to end and the person to age 100 years instantly.

I've never seen anyone do that in D&D, but a DM drawing on real-world myth might.



Which raises another question of how you ressurect someone so simply, raising someone the next day could seem like enough time for their soul to be turned into some Pit Fiend.

It takes time for the soul to reach its final destination. Whether that's because of a time period in limbo or because it has to wait for the god of the dead to weigh it against the soul of a good man or whatever is up to the DM. Anyone who has sold their soul, however, can expect it to be collected by the purchaser as soon as it becomes available...


I'm asking because I've only got the exact nature of a few planes left to finish, and the source of half the wold's problems come from the fact that some celestial or fiend can't just pop home and call for help before it's too latte.

That's up to you to sort.

nagora
2008-05-22, 04:22 PM
*sigh*

Unless a DM specifies otherwise in the OP then every published 3.5 book is assumed to be in play with all of the normal rules for what trumps what.

I'd disagree. Unless the DM specifies otherwise, only core books are in play. It is unreasonable to expect every player/reader to know every book available, but it is entirely reasonable to expect them to know what to expect from every core book. If you want to go beyond core, it's up to you to be specific.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-22, 06:38 PM
...or because it has to wait for the god of the dead to weigh it against the soul of a good man...

But the scales are a bitch to calibrate...

Corolinth
2008-05-22, 06:39 PM
I haven't seen that. Page number?Page 210 and 211 of Manual of the Planes lists one specific example of a plane with flowing time where you are retroactively aged when you return home (and they clarify that it is an exception to the normal rule for planes with flowing time). It's a variant outer plane meant to recreate the realm of the Fair Folk from the Gaelic mythologies.

Waspinator
2008-05-22, 08:06 PM
The space-time contiuum is overpowered and a haxxor.

Maerok
2008-05-22, 08:49 PM
Can you leech off others with mind jar a la 'Asenath' Waite, for those in the know :smallwink:, to preserve your own time to live or exist past when you would die?

Cuddly
2008-05-22, 11:12 PM
No, he wouldn't. Unless he had a pact specifically conceding his soul to hell and specifically stating that upon death he would become a higher-order devil, he would become a lemure like everybody else. The devils don't care how powerful you were in life; in fact, I would imagine that if they did care, it would only be insofar as they can further torture you with taunts about how pitiful your present form is compared to your mortal glory.

Actually, they DO care about how powerful you were in your mortal life. Read Tyrants of the Nine Hells. There's even a mechanic for how much they value high level souls over low level ones.

Niknokitueu
2008-05-23, 03:47 AM
No spell I know of reverses the aging process.

Um, Wish?
Not sure if Wish is still a legal spell (was in AD&D 2e, which was the last time I played a mage in D&D), but it's power is only really limited by:
a) Player audacity, and
b) DM willingness.
(Please note that in my current gaming system, HackMaster, our GM has occasionally threatened to give us a wish spell. So far enough voices of reason have reassured him that some of the more, impetuous, players would probably kill the party in an attempt to become 'uber'. I personally would never cast a wish spell in his game world - I like my characters alive and in one piece. HackMaster is one of the few game systems where wish fulfilment carries a health warning sticker...)

When traveling from plane to plane time around you flows differently, spending a day on one plane is a century on another.

This is quite normal. Including the ones where time flows backwards. You may wish to restrict access to those planes... (Paradox can be a git)

Therefore:When hopping from plane to plane on a campane, upon returning home you could die with no saving throw, turn to dust(no free willed undead), and be unable to get a resurrection.

Um, apparently only on one plane. Time flows fast there, but you do not feel the effects until you leave the plane. Just restrict access to that plane.

So IMO the easiest way out of this is to use a Wish spell. Just be careful, because DMs have the right (and the obligation) to try to twist wish spells so that they do not work in the way the caster intended.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Tobrian
2008-05-23, 04:43 AM
Um, Wish?
Not sure if Wish is still a legal spell (was in AD&D 2e, which was the last time I played a mage in D&D), but it's power is only really limited by:
a) Player audacity, and
b) DM willingness.
(snip the rest)

There's your problem right there. The arcane spell Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) and its divine counterpart Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) were massively changed under 3.0/3.5 edition rules.

Wish was nerfed and now mainly offers boring game mechanical effects at a steep price. (Really, exchanging a few thousand XP and tons of gold to buy a permanent +1 increase in an attribute is about the best you can get out of it.) Miracle has still retained some of the "OMG it's worldshaking 9th level magic!" flavour, it's slightly different from Wish in some places, and vastly more powerful in certain regards (what do you expect, it's a cleric spell, clerics always get the better deal).

From the d20 SRD:

Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
* Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
* Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
* Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
* Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
* Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
* Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
Material Component

When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You don’t so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

A miracle can do any of the following things.

* Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
* Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
* Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
* Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.

Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.

* Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
* Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
* Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.

In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost

5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).


The only ways left under 3.5 rules to reverse aging or get younger that I know of are:
Option 1: Reincarnate
Option 2: Necromancy

Have Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) cast on yourself before you keel over dead of old age; the spell description specifically states "The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age." and it also doesn't work on a PC who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect spell. You come back in a fresh new body of a young adult... effectively, this can make the PC younger than he was when he first started out adventuring as a 1st level character, since the additional age that is added depending on character class doesn't matter.

"Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated."

On the up side, the 3rd edition version of Reincarnate is far more user-friendly than the old 2nd edition one. In 2nd edition, Reincarnate was mostly a was to screw over players. Really, who ever used that spell willingly if he had an alternative? No-one. Under 3rd edition, you won't at least come back to life as a mudworm. The downside is, various supplements have added so many rare or weird races and made them available as player races that the race table for Reincarnation is sorely lacking. Worse, several feats, builds and Prestige Classes are limited to certain races, and if the PCs comes back as something different, you can basically throw the whole character concept into the trash, or pay for a Wish spell on top of it to come back as the exact same race. And you lose a level now, which in 2nd edition wasn't the case with Reincarnate.


As for Necromancy to reverse your own aging by sucking lifeforce from a victim and adding it to your own, such spells did exist in AD&D 2nd Edition (especially in the Dragonlance setting)... reminiscent of that scene in the movie The Dark Crystal. I'm sure there's something similar still around in the Libris Mortis Tome of Necromancy or the Book of Vile Darkness, but off the top of my head I cannot name a specific spell or rituals. It's probably super-evil and thus restricted to NPCs.

InaVegt
2008-05-23, 04:52 AM
...You realize how foolish that sounded? We're talking about Asmodeus, not frickin' monkey-brain and monkey head Demogorgon. He is perhaps THE most intelligent being in the whole multiverse, and you try to tell me he's stupid enough to spend time torturing you and transforming you to a Lemure?

PAH! What he'll do is mindrape you and shaft you to the Blood War as a pit fiend, if anything.

Except, well, Asmodeus doesn't care **** about the Blood War.

According to the BoVD (the official source on arch fiends) none of the arch fiends bother with the blood war, it's beneath them. Instead, a council of twelve pit fiends rules the forces of hell, and I'd assume there's a similar, but more chaotic, rulership of the forces of the abyss.

nagora
2008-05-23, 05:08 AM
There's your problem right there. The arcane spell Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) and its divine counterpart Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) were massively changed under 3.0/3.5 edition rules.

Wish was nerfed and now mainly offers boring game mechanical effects at a steep price. (Really, exchanging a few thousand XP and tons of gold to buy a permanent +1 increase in an attribute is about the best you can get out of it.)

That sums up 3ed nicely: by making it very very easy to reach a level where you can cast 9th level spells the game was thrown out of balance. Solution: make 9th level spells crap! Duh!

Anyway. Wish used to: a) be worth having, and b) age the caster. Wishing to be younger with your own wish was impossible. Of course, a magic item might do it if the wish was very carefully phrased, but any sensible DM would make such things hard to find and rare (naturally, since the maker of the item aged him/herself to make it they ain't going to be common) and the gaining of them a tale worth the telling.

Kantolin
2008-05-23, 05:28 AM
Um. Wish also states:


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

That's pretty much open-source.

I actually like 3.5's wish. It gives you hazy parameters and guidelines for 'a wish can do this, basically', and then lets you play monkey paw if you'd prefer.

KazilDarkeye
2008-05-23, 06:23 AM
Lemure are mindless and are only the souls of petty creatures. It follows form that that a powerful creature would reincarnate into a badass devil, as you don't shift species anyway.

Lemures aren't tortured. Soul shells are. Devils don't remember what they were like as mortals.
I reckon that humiliating a soul shell by reminding of the "power shift" thing would be worth extra magic being wrung out of the soul shell.


Except, well, Asmodeus doesn't care **** about the Blood War.

According to the BoVD (the official source on arch fiends) none of the arch fiends bother with the blood war, it's beneath them. Instead, a council of twelve pit fiends rules the forces of hell, and I'd assume there's a similar, but more chaotic, rulership of the forces of the abyss.

The Blood War is the concern of AN archdevil. It's Bel (he's the one who is gonna get demoted first if the demons win, mark my words).
Plus it's only 8 Pit Fiends (The Dark Eight).
You're right about Asmodeus though. The Blood War is a distraction. Once Asmodeus has enough energy he plans to end the Blood War with a temporary alliance with the Demons in order to overrun the Higher Planes.

Also FYI, Fiendish Codex II is more up-to-date with Baator and its Archdevils.

NephandiMan
2008-05-23, 07:55 AM
...and yes, when the stars align the being benieth the waves will turn you into coffee...

...LATTE LATTE MOCHA FTAGAN!

If I'd been drinking coffee just then, I would've spit it out laughing. Very nice.

Jayngfet
2008-05-23, 11:23 PM
Off topic but

...couldn't you use Wish to make a castle out of nothing, if you're willing to draw up everything in you're spare time, you could have a miles high and wide castle with rooms of holding that function like giving you great halls in the hall closet, but you'd have to give a copy to the DM in you're spare time if it's detailed enough to be loophole free, and even then I'd look for loopholes for a while myself.

monty
2008-05-23, 11:27 PM
Off topic but

...couldn't you use Wish to make a castle out of nothing, if you're willing to draw up everything in you're spare time, you could have a miles high and wide castle with rooms of holding that function like giving you great halls in the hall closet, but you'd have to give a copy to the DM in you're spare time if it's detailed enough to be loophole free, and even then I'd look for loopholes for a while myself.

If it's nonmagical, it has a cost limit (25000 I believe). If it's magical, there's no limit, but it'll rape your XP. Technically, there's no loopholes to exploit in the latter case (it explicitly says "create a magic item" with no mention of a limit), but I doubt it'd be worth it.

On the other hand, Gate in an efreeti to Wish for a magic castle, and you're good.

Recaiden
2008-05-24, 01:37 PM
No, he wouldn't. Unless he had a pact specifically conceding his soul to hell and specifically stating that upon death he would become a higher-order devil, he would become a lemure like everybody else. The devils don't care how powerful you were in life; in fact, I would imagine that if they did care, it would only be insofar as they can further torture you with taunts about how pitiful your present form is compared to your mortal glory.

I don't know if there are specifics in the Fiendish Codexes, but in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, it says that powerful souls can bargain with the devils for becoming a more powerful devil initially.

And only timeless trait planes can insta-kill people when they return. You would have to live there for as much time as you had left to live, during which you wouldn't age, and then return to your home plane. There is no established rule for retroactive aging between planes with different time speeds.

GoC
2008-05-24, 10:26 PM
Right. You've had your go; immortality is the domain of the gods and they guard it jealously.

I've always been curious about something...
If you die of old age and go to some good afterlife then planeshift back do you re-die instantly? Could you be resurrected when killed again?

elliott20
2008-05-24, 10:53 PM
somebody needs to work on a build that defeats his enemies by aging them.

quiet1mi
2008-05-25, 12:27 AM
Therefore:When hopping from plane to plane on a campane, upon returning home you could die with no saving throw, turn to dust(no free willed undead), and be unable to get a resurrection.

I think he is referring to spending thousands of years in the astral plane and the going back to the material plane...

Jayngfet
2008-05-25, 12:57 AM
I think he is referring to spending thousands of years in the astral plane and the going back to the material plane...

Along those lines yes, in my world I'm making it so that only a newborn elf has a chance on coming back, and even then only if gone for a few rounds, it's one of the major sources of conflict in the world really.

Corolinth
2008-05-25, 01:42 AM
Actually, they DO care about how powerful you were in your mortal life. Read Tyrants of the Nine Hells. There's even a mechanic for how much they value high level souls over low level ones.They care, but not enough to refrain from torturing you until your personal identity shatters. I presume you refer to this sidebar, which is on the very next page after the one detailing the mechanics for Faustian pacts?


Why do they do it?

One of the mysteries of the multiverse is why any person in her right mind would choose a lawful evil alignment and devil worship. Who wants to go to Baator and suffer horrific torments, only to be boiled down into expendable energy and used to spawn a pathetic, mindless lemure?

First of all, few inhabitants of a D&D world, even devil cultists, have access to accurate information about the afterlife. Most lawful evil characters envision the Nine Hells as a place much like the everyday world, except with higher, sharper mountains and a touch more brimstone in the air. One might have heard that souls are tormented there, but she assumes that her own special relationship with her local devils will somehow exempt her from such treatment. After all, high-ranking minions of evil universally regard them as special and indispensable.

Characters might also be aware that lawful evil souls become devils after death, but not that their identities are painfully extracted and obliterated in the process. Arrogantly certain of their ability to scale the diabolical heirarchy, they reckon that they will quickly zoom to pit fiend status, retaining their earthly personalities and memories in the process. Neither evil kings nor fanatical cult leaders look at a lemure and imagine it to be their most likely eternal form.

In a few rare cases, an exceptionally evil person might receive an automatic promotion to a higher devil form. Thus, a band of adventurers might conceivably slay a tyrant, only to see him return as a mighty devil. Such a transformation is rare, but it can happen.Note the redundancy in describing such an immediate transformation as "rare." This immediately follows the statement that the lemure is the most likely eternal form, indicating that not only do very few evil characters ever receive an automatic promotion to a greater devil, but that the majority never even advance beyond a lemure. Ever. For the rest of eternity. And once someone is a lemure, they are not the person they once were, and never will be again. That entire personality and identity is gone forever.

So sure, it's possible that due to a Faustian pact, someone might conceivably die and immediately become some (any) devil, instead of a whimpering soul shell. And I'm sure that was written in there to allow for story ideas. It would have to be a Faustian pact drawn up by a devil greater than what you're going to become when you die, though. Bear in mind, of course, that powerful devils don't make Faustian pacts as a general rule - they have flunkies to do that. Politics, you understand. The archdukes just don't have time to make Faustian pacts with mere "powerful, high-level evil characters." You've only been at it for what, 70 years? And that's if you got off to an early start, and managed to not get murdered by an underling or bumped off by powerful, high-level good characters. Maybe 700, tops, if you're an elf (and extremely healthy). They've been at this business since time began. You're just another soul to them. They don't care what level you were, or whether you were a "batman wizard" or a "CoDzilla." You're property of Hell.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-25, 02:34 AM
No spell I know of reverses the aging process.

I'm sure I've posted this before, but Steal Life (8th level - BoVD) does this under very specific conditions. Normally the spell damages a point of a different ability every round until the target dies from Constitution loss (as long as the caster concentrates.) However, when cast under a full moon the caster becomes a week younger for every point drained.

Ironically, this evil spell is effectively more beneficial to use in a non-vile way. All you have to do is keep your target alive via a wand of lesser restoration (~4500 gp) and someone aiding you by casting it over and over. Each wand you completely expend leaves you 2 and a third years younger, and with 10 hours in a night, you could end up as much as 115 years younger for the low, low price of 225,000gp.

nagora
2008-05-25, 07:47 AM
They don't care what level you were, or whether you were a "batman wizard" or a "CoDzilla." You're property of Hell.

When the last neutral soul gives up and aligns itself with the usurping powers of the outer planes, when the world is divided amongst the factions of Heaven and Hell, the winner will be declared by counting the power of the souls contained in each of the cynical Gods' afterlives.

Then the favoured slaves of Good and Evil will be picked out for further service upon the next PMP on the roster of the Great Game. The remainder will continue their sterile lives of stagnation, never to reincarnate, never to return, never to grow or develop forever and ever.

They don't care about you, their words of temptation serve only themselves and their plans; the Gods are parasites.

This warning comes from the Cabal of Druids (http://www.tww.cx/downloads/druids.pdf) (1ed campaign idea, could perhaps be used in other editions too).

Greg
2008-05-25, 09:57 AM
Extended life span adds to all your age categories by as much as 2 centuries. It's an epic feat though.

Cuddly
2008-05-25, 04:44 PM
They care, but not enough to refrain from torturing you until your personal identity shatters. I presume you refer to this sidebar, which is on the very next page after the one detailing the mechanics for Faustian pacts?

Note the redundancy in describing such an immediate transformation as "rare." This immediately follows the statement that the lemure is the most likely eternal form, indicating that not only do very few evil characters ever receive an automatic promotion to a greater devil, but that the majority never even advance beyond a lemure. Ever. For the rest of eternity. And once someone is a lemure, they are not the person they once were, and never will be again. That entire personality and identity is gone forever.

So sure, it's possible that due to a Faustian pact, someone might conceivably die and immediately become some (any) devil, instead of a whimpering soul shell. And I'm sure that was written in there to allow for story ideas. It would have to be a Faustian pact drawn up by a devil greater than what you're going to become when you die, though. Bear in mind, of course, that powerful devils don't make Faustian pacts as a general rule - they have flunkies to do that. Politics, you understand. The archdukes just don't have time to make Faustian pacts with mere "powerful, high-level evil characters." You've only been at it for what, 70 years? And that's if you got off to an early start, and managed to not get murdered by an underling or bumped off by powerful, high-level good characters. Maybe 700, tops, if you're an elf (and extremely healthy). They've been at this business since time began. You're just another soul to them. They don't care what level you were, or whether you were a "batman wizard" or a "CoDzilla." You're property of Hell.

No, look at the table.
Higher level characters' souls are worth more.

GoC
2008-05-26, 10:04 AM
I've always been curious about something...
If you die of old age and go to some good afterlife then planeshift back do you re-die instantly? Could you be resurrected when killed again?

No answer?

Habeed
2008-05-26, 01:19 PM
It looks pretty darn easy as near as I can tell. All you need is the spell wish, and you can live forever.

1. Use wish to duplicate the effects of the spell reincarnate, which is level 4 druid. Store the spell as some form of contigency or on a scroll that a trustworthy assistant can use.

2. Have your character kill themselves by a non magical means. A guillotine would probably be a simple, reasonably painless way to go.

3. Use wish to change the character's reincarnated, adult body back to the form of their choosing. Since the character's age was reset, their actual age is now that of a young adult.
Cost? 10,000 XP. Nothing else.

For convenience, and to prevent something going wrong, you should do this every 20-30 years or so in order to be absolutely sure you don't accidentally die of old age. It also would help to have several trustworthy assistants standing by who can at least use magic devices loaded with appropriate spells to help out.

My character, for one, would live his immortal days out, spending most of the time on his personal plane of paradise. His wizard tower would be there, along with sunny beaches and plenty of great food and drink. Physically attactive commoner guests would be allowed, assuming they can pass a through magical background check.

Whenever possible, my character would try to gain experience through non-combat means. Although, with plenty of friends who have access to resurrection magic, I suppose death would not be that great of a worry.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-26, 03:15 PM
Immortality recipe.

You'll get a pretty nasty Inevitable infestation in your paradise wizard tower. :smalltongue:

GoC
2008-05-26, 03:45 PM
You'll get a pretty nasty Inevitable infestation in your paradise wizard tower. :smalltongue:

Inevitables are pretty weak compared to 17th level wizards.

nagora
2008-05-26, 05:13 PM
It looks pretty darn easy as near as I can tell. All you need is the spell wish, and you can live forever.

Yes. This is a bug in the 3ed version of the reincarnate spell (and partly in the handling of non-humans).

nagora
2008-05-26, 05:19 PM
No answer?

I'll make a stab. To leave the afterlife requires the permission of the deity who controls your part of the afterlife. This is not easy to obtain due to "mutually assured destruction" issues amongst the gods. If you do leave without permission, someone/thing will be sent to fetch you back.

Also, while dead, you have no physical body of your own and are no longer native to the PMP. These facts can be irksome. You can be banished in various ways and various types of wards will prevent your passage.

If you are killed in this form before obtaining a body you are destroyed totally and forever.

That's more or less how I'd run it as DM.

Edit: just to be clear - you must have a rational as to why dead people stay where they are or the whole campaign will explode in a puff of logic. The druid PDF I linked to earlier is part of an answer to that issue: the gods want souls for some later purpose (and high-level ones are more desirable than low-level ones, which I didn't touch on in that piece). Once they have them safely tucked up in the afterlife, they don't want to risk sending them off again, particularly since that might induce the other gods to do likewise. Before you know it, the game world is overrun with long-dead heroes of ages gone by and nobody can go to the shops without it turning into an epic battle.

Talya
2008-05-26, 06:16 PM
No answer?

The answer is unpleasant.

Read War of the Spider Queen, in particular the book "Annihilation".

During Gromph Baenre's duel with the Lich-drow Lord of house Agrach-Dyrr, the lich-drow opened a portal to the "halfling heaven" called "Green Feilds" underneath the falling Baenre wizard, landing the unfortunate drow wizard among a bunch of halflings celebrating their afterlife. When Gromph quickly opened another portal to head back, a halfling tried to tag along with him, to help out his poor mother, who was in dire straights back on prime material.

The poor halfling soul instantly withers into some kind of undead creature...sadly, I forget what it was called, and I'm too lazy to go find the book.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-26, 09:15 PM
Inevitables are pretty weak compared to 17th level wizards.

As if there wasn't an entire chapter in the back of the Monster Manual on making monsters stronger than, say, a 17th level wizard. :smalltongue:

GoC
2008-05-26, 10:29 PM
As if there wasn't an entire chapter in the back of the Monster Manual on making monsters stronger than, say, a 17th level wizard. :smalltongue:

Adding HD and size isn't going to cut it.


If you do leave without permission, someone/thing will be sent to fetch you back.
What sort of thing could be a threat to a high level wizard?:smalltongue:
I'm not seeing anything less than an avatar and then is it worth the bother?


If you are killed in this form before obtaining a body you are destroyed totally and forever.
And if you do obtain a body and are re-killed?

Hallavast
2008-05-26, 11:04 PM
It looks pretty darn easy as near as I can tell. All you need is the spell wish, and you can live forever.

1. Use wish to duplicate the effects of the spell reincarnate, which is level 4 druid. Store the spell as some form of contigency or on a scroll that a trustworthy assistant can use.

2. Have your character kill themselves by a non magical means. A guillotine would probably be a simple, reasonably painless way to go.

3. Use wish to change the character's reincarnated, adult body back to the form of their choosing. Since the character's age was reset, their actual age is now that of a young adult.
Cost? 10,000 XP. Nothing else.

For convenience, and to prevent something going wrong, you should do this every 20-30 years or so in order to be absolutely sure you don't accidentally die of old age. It also would help to have several trustworthy assistants standing by who can at least use magic devices loaded with appropriate spells to help out.

My character, for one, would live his immortal days out, spending most of the time on his personal plane of paradise. His wizard tower would be there, along with sunny beaches and plenty of great food and drink. Physically attactive commoner guests would be allowed, assuming they can pass a through magical background check.

Whenever possible, my character would try to gain experience through non-combat means. Although, with plenty of friends who have access to resurrection magic, I suppose death would not be that great of a worry.

You'd think a clone spell would be a little easier, eh?

nagora
2008-05-27, 05:05 AM
Adding HD and size isn't going to cut it.


What sort of thing could be a threat to a high level wizard?:smalltongue:
I'm not seeing anything less than an avatar and then is it worth the bother?
That's like saying that only petty criminals should be chased by the police and those who steal millions should be allowed to keep it (so, not unlike real life, then :smallannoyed:). By definition, if you're that high a level that only an avatar can haul you back, then an avatar will make a point of hauling you back.


And if you do obtain a body and are re-killed?
Back you go (possibly to a new plane if your alignment has shifted).

The afterlife is not just "I've been shifted to another plane". Firstly, you've been locked in that plane (by your own actions during life; don't whine). Secondly, the ruler or rulers or wannabe rulers of that plane have some reason why they want you there and not on the PMP. Finally, if a dead spell-caster can simply return to the PMP, death is a meaningless concept for them. Which is fair enough as long as the DM is prepared to play out the consequences for the gameworld.

If wizards don't die like everyone else, then they will rule the world. They, both as a group and as individuals, become unstoppable. It's like, say, elves who live for 2000 years but have no limitations on their experience levels. That's fine, as long as the DM and players are happy to play in a world ruled by and for elves. Perfectly interesting background if you don't want to play a humanocentric campaign, but useless if you want something more like "real world" myth and legend.

Likewise, if one deity turns a blind eye to souls sneaking out after death, then all deities might well do the same thing and the result would be an apocalypse of endless battle on the PMP - Mutually Assured Destruction. Again, an interesting "speciality" setting but hardly mainstream fare for everyone.

As ever, if the DM thinks the system allows something stupid, the system is wrong and the DM is right. If the DM says "no planeshift for the dead" then that's the end of it, and there's probably good reason for it.

aarondirebear
2008-05-27, 12:56 PM
Um, no. Newest source trumps older source.

Retconner!
Retconner!
The power of christ compels you!
Begone foul demon or be plagued with high interest rates!

No,t he ORIGINAL sources are the correct ones. Anything new that comes out and contradicts it is WRONG. Don't be George Effing Lucas or Chris Bloody Metzen.

But that said, the DM trumps all.

As a DM and as someone who HATES Retcon with a PASSION, the retroactive aging and hunger thing doesn't fly in my world.

I want my $%^&ing Room of Spirit and Time dammit!

Soup of Kings
2008-05-27, 04:48 PM
Adding HD and size isn't going to cut it.

How unreasonable is it to assume that an Inevitable would, in the process of tracking your wizard and having quite powerful logic, take some freaking class levels upon realizing that this is the most efficient method of dealing with the problem?

Unless you're saying that that doesn't matter either, in which case your 17th level wizard is more powerful than, say, an 18th level wizard. In which case, huh?

GoC
2008-05-27, 09:31 PM
That's like saying that only petty criminals should be chased by the police and those who steal millions should be allowed to keep it (so, not unlike real life, then :smallannoyed:). By definition, if you're that high a level that only an avatar can haul you back, then an avatar will make a point of hauling you back.
The difference with stealing millions is that:
A. Stealing hurts the person you stole from, escaping heaven really doesn't.
B. The person who stole it most likely couldn't face down everything short of a heavy armored division.

Is it worth the trouble sending an avatar? Why not just ignore anyone who can defeat a group of inevitables?


Finally, if a dead spell-caster can simply return to the PMP, death is a meaningless concept for them.
No, because your next death will most likely be permanent unless the god you ran away from has mercy on you.


If wizards don't die like everyone else, then they will rule the world. They, both as a group and as individuals, become unstoppable. It's like, say, elves who live for 2000 years but have no limitations on their experience levels. That's fine, as long as the DM and players are happy to play in a world ruled by and for elves. Perfectly interesting background if you don't want to play a humanocentric campaign, but useless if you want something more like "real world" myth and legend.
Wizards already rule the world and by common sense elves should rule the world.


How unreasonable is it to assume that an Inevitable would, in the process of tracking your wizard and having quite powerful logic, take some freaking class levels upon realizing that this is the most efficient method of dealing with the problem?
I'd forgotten that constructs never take levels due to their low int score. I thought it was something innate.

nagora
2008-05-28, 03:40 AM
The difference with stealing millions is that:
A. Stealing hurts the person you stole from, escaping heaven really doesn't.
B. The person who stole it most likely couldn't face down everything short of a heavy armored division.

Is it worth the trouble sending an avatar? Why not just ignore anyone who can defeat a group of inevitables?

I think you're missing the big picture here, and gods deal in the big picture pretty well exclusively. The superpowers don't like the idea of nuclear weapons running around; the gods would take a similar view of wizards who refuse to stay where they're put after death, IMO. No effort would be too great to bring them back, and they won't take the attitude that no one was hurt by them escaping from heaven, it's a direct challenge to their authority.

But, it's your campaign and you can do what you like.

Kioran
2008-05-28, 06:00 AM
The difference with stealing millions is that:
A. Stealing hurts the person you stole from, escaping heaven really doesn't.
B. The person who stole it most likely couldn't face down everything short of a heavy armored division.
Is it worth the trouble sending an avatar? Why not just ignore anyone who can defeat a group of inevitables?

Becuase, quite frankly, immortality creates an unpleasant precendent and the gods want their steady influx of souls, especially high level ones. After one or two millenia, they´ll drag your @$$ there screaming and kicking if they have to. They also mercilessly hunt down Elans after a while (just like the church of St- Cuthbert or his equivalent in my 4th Ed campaign would genocide Tieflings - the lofic of the setting dictates it)


Wizards already rule the world and by common sense elves should rule the world.

You are, unfortunately, right.


I'd forgotten that constructs never take levels due to their low int score. I thought it was something innate.

Oh, you mean the Marut's basic 12 Int? I agree too dumb to take class levels :smallsigh:

It just takes a while before that Marut 15/Hexblade 3/Monk 2+ comes knocking and, I qoute slightly altered: "gives you a punch till you fly thorugh the land like a maglev train"
....and laughs at your mangled corpse. remember, it has an elite array, Mettle, Evasion, and thorugh the Hexblade's arcane resistance, very decent saves. A little magical gear, and you´re looking at some serious pain in your near future. The only good thing is that yyou´ll be able to outrun the Marut nearly indefinitely, but then, living as Tippy's paranoid wizard succks out most of they joy in life.

Soup of Kings
2008-05-28, 09:45 PM
Oh, you mean the Marut's basic 12 Int? I agree too dumb to take class levels :smallsigh:

It just takes a while before that Marut 15/Hexblade 3/Monk 2+ comes knocking and, I qoute slightly altered: "gives you a punch till you fly thorugh the land like a maglev train"
....and laughs at your mangled corpse. remember, it has an elite array, Mettle, Evasion, and thorugh the Hexblade's arcane resistance, very decent saves. A little magical gear, and you´re looking at some serious pain in your near future. The only good thing is that yyou´ll be able to outrun the Marut nearly indefinitely, but then, living as Tippy's paranoid wizard succks out most of they joy in life.

I think he (or she) meant that he (or she) forgot that the reason Constructs generally didn't take class levels was that they have no Int, as opposed to it just being a Construct thing. With Inevitables being the exception to the rule, it's a pretty understandable mistake. :smallsmile: